Re: Windows installer, first page
Angus Leeming wrote: Note the Install Minimal version which is meant to inform the user that we're proposing to use your minimal package. However, the user is free to change anything and everything... But please don't tell that LyX ships with a minimal version of UNIX. I would suggest to use UNIX shell or UNIX shell utilities. I think it is important to be accurate even if the intended audience does not know much about UNIX. And the perl and latex paths seem to be swapped ;-) Georg
Re: Windows installer, first page
Uwe Sthr wrote: Angus Leeming wrote: Ok, here's what I think we should have for the first page. All those other pages will be visited only if the user explicitly wants to. No this is what I DON'T want! I'm still lost. Even your hiding their head in the sand like an ostrich users will have to install latex,gs,imagemagick so why not tell them that you've found these things. We're getting upset by three lines on a single page. IMO, the information is certainly not threatening. I want to have a page with two radion buttons, one for the advanced installation and one for standard. Fine, then let's prepend a page that does just that. Sounds a little ridiculous to me, but... Please believe me and Asger that an average Win user don't know what python or UNIX or a shell is. If you don't believe me, go for example to the travel agency next to you and ask the people there (=average Win users) if they know what a shell is. And who, exactly, do you think uses LyX in a travel agency? The vast majority of our users are students, academics or people who write for a living. I base this statement on the people writing to the lyx-users list. To clearify my intention again: I installed LyXWin for users who e.g. didn't know how to create a startmenu entry. But they are able to work with LyX and want them also to be able to install LyX. My audience don't like to make decisions about programs they haven't heard about. LyX is essentially a frontend to LaTeX. It interfaces with a stack of other programs. To hide this from the user is just silly. That's why I want to have the standard installation as I proposed it. Fine. Then your two radio buttons as the first page will hide my next six ;-) - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way I do for pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the .ps extension to Acrobat Distiller (a ps to pdf converter program). I had a look at the PC's at work and that's the setting on many of the machines. It seems that some people don't use PostScript (Btw. me too). - But in my opinion we shouldn't search for a PostScript viewer as we don't have a menu entry in LyX for View - PostScript. So standard users wont have problems. You are using circular logic. There's no menu entry because no viewer was found. No viewer was found because we search in the PATH. The PATH was not adjusted to include (say) the GSView directory because we didn't set it in the installer... If advanced users add a menu entry for PostScript they know what they are doing and can set the viewer manually in the preferences. Well, that's your view. I disagree. Respectfully, of course. -- Angus
Re: Windows installer, first page
Uwe == Uwe Sthr [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Uwe - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way I do for Uwe pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the .ps Uwe extension to Acrobat Distiller (a ps to pdf converter program). Uwe I had a look at the PC's at work and that's the setting on many Uwe of the machines. It seems that some people don't use PostScript Uwe (Btw. me too). So, when distiller is associated to .ps what happens when you double click? Does it transform the file to pdf and them show the said pdf? In this case this is a perfectly acceptable behaviour (what OSX does, actually). I think that most people do _not_ have distiller installed, in any case. JMarc
Re: Windows installer, first page
Angus Leeming wrote: I'm still lost. Even your hiding their head in the sand like an ostrich users will have to install latex,gs,imagemagick so why not tell them that you've found these things. But I will inform them about the three programs. I just want to hide the Unix shell, perl, and python for standard users. I want to have a page with two radio buttons, one for the advanced installation and one for standard. Fine, then let's prepend a page that does just that. Sounds a little ridiculous to me, but... I would do this, but I fear that I don't have the time to do it in the next weeks. And who, exactly, do you think uses LyX in a travel agency? The vast majority of our users are students, academics or people who write for a living. Yes but the majority of students, mostly humanist, philologists etc., but also engineers have never used Linux and therefore don't know what a Unix shell is. I think LyXWin is a big chance to get more users due to its simplicity. To clearify my intention again: I installed LyXWin for users who e.g. didn't know how to create a startmenu entry. But they are able to work with LyX and want them also to be able to install LyX. My audience don't like to make decisions about programs they haven't heard about. LyX is essentially a frontend to LaTeX. It interfaces with a stack of other programs. To hide this from the user is just silly. And I thaught this is the intention of LyX. Most of the people I could convince to use LyXWin like it as they don't need to use LaTeX commands and don't need to know how the programs in the background are used to produce their output. But I don't want to hide the informations about the found programs. It was only an idea to get rid of the program path informations. That's why I want to have the standard installation as I proposed it. Fine. Then your two radio buttons as the first page will hide my next six ;-) Yes, if the user chooses standard. - But in my opinion we shouldn't search for a PostScript viewer as we don't have a menu entry in LyX for View - PostScript. So standard users wont have problems. You are using circular logic. There's no menu entry because no viewer was found. No viewer was found because we search in the PATH. The PATH was not adjusted to include (say) the GSView directory because we didn't set it in the installer... Oh, hm, I should have known this. If advanced users add a menu entry for PostScript they know what they are doing and can set the viewer manually in the preferences. You can ignore this due to my fault above. regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes schrieb: So, when distiller is associated to .ps what happens when you double click? Does it transform the file to pdf and them show the said pdf? It is converted to pdf but not shown in any cases. If I remember correctly the default is to open it with acrobat. But you can also set the option that it is not shown. In this case this is a perfectly acceptable behaviour (what OSX does, actually). OK, but the conversion needs some time especially when you use many images in your file. I think that most people do _not_ have distiller installed, in any case. You are right. But in many institutes they have it installed by default. Because Adobe products are cheap for universities so that they bought an institute license. I just want to assure that the search for a PS viewer works for everybody. regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
I wrote: - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way we do for pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the .ps extension to Acrobat Distiller (a ps to pdf converter program). I've a solution: We read out the OpenWithList registry subentry a as we do it for .pdf. If the result path contains acrobat we read out the subentry b. This can now be the path to ghostview or is empty. I'll try to implement it in the next days. regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
Angus Leeming wrote: > Note the "Install Minimal version" which is meant to inform the user that > we're proposing to use your minimal package. However, the user is free to > change anything and everything... But please don't tell that LyX ships with a minimal version of UNIX. I would suggest to use "UNIX shell" or "UNIX shell utilities". I think it is important to be accurate even if the intended audience does not know much about UNIX. And the perl and latex paths seem to be swapped ;-) Georg
Re: Windows installer, first page
Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Angus Leeming wrote: > >> Ok, here's what I think we should have for the first page. All those >> other pages will be visited only if the user explicitly wants to. > > No this is what I DON'T want! I'm still lost. Even your "hiding their head in the sand like an ostrich" users will have to install latex,gs,imagemagick so why not tell them that you've found these things. We're getting upset by three lines on a single page. IMO, the information is certainly not "threatening". > I want to have a page with two radion buttons, one for the "advanced" > installation and one for "standard". Fine, then let's prepend a page that does just that. Sounds a little ridiculous to me, but... > Please believe me and Asger that an average Win user don't know what > python or UNIX or a shell is. If you don't believe me, go for example to > the travel agency next to you and ask the people there (=average Win > users) if they know what a shell is. And who, exactly, do you think uses LyX in a travel agency? The vast majority of our users are students, academics or people who write for a living. I base this statement on the people writing to the lyx-users list. > To clearify my intention again: I installed LyXWin for users who e.g. > didn't know how to create a startmenu entry. But they are able to work > with LyX and want them also to be able to install LyX. My audience don't > like to make decisions about programs they haven't heard about. LyX is essentially a frontend to LaTeX. It interfaces with a stack of other programs. To "hide" this from the user is just silly. > That's why I want to have the "standard" installation as I proposed it. Fine. Then your "two radio buttons" as the first page will hide my next six ;-) > - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way I do for pdf. > Because if acrobat is installed it associates the ".ps" extension to > "Acrobat Distiller" (a ps to pdf converter program). I had a look at the > PC's at work and that's the setting on many of the machines. It seems > that some people don't use PostScript (Btw. me too). > > - But in my opinion we shouldn't search for a PostScript viewer as we > don't have a menu entry in LyX for View -> PostScript. So standard users > wont have problems. You are using circular logic. There's no menu entry because no viewer was found. No viewer was found because we search in the PATH. The PATH was not adjusted to include (say) the GSView directory because we didn't set it in the installer... > If advanced users add a menu entry for PostScript > they know what they are doing and can set the viewer manually in the > preferences. Well, that's your view. I disagree. Respectfully, of course. -- Angus
Re: Windows installer, first page
> "Uwe" == Uwe Stöhr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Uwe> - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way I do for Uwe> pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the ".ps" Uwe> extension to "Acrobat Distiller" (a ps to pdf converter program). Uwe> I had a look at the PC's at work and that's the setting on many Uwe> of the machines. It seems that some people don't use PostScript Uwe> (Btw. me too). So, when distiller is associated to .ps what happens when you double click? Does it transform the file to pdf and them show the said pdf? In this case this is a perfectly acceptable behaviour (what OSX does, actually). I think that most people do _not_ have distiller installed, in any case. JMarc
Re: Windows installer, first page
Angus Leeming wrote: I'm still lost. Even your "hiding their head in the sand like an ostrich" users will have to install latex,gs,imagemagick so why not tell them that you've found these things. But I will inform them about the three programs. I just want to hide the Unix shell, perl, and python for standard users. I want to have a page with two radio buttons, one for the "advanced" installation and one for "standard". Fine, then let's prepend a page that does just that. Sounds a little ridiculous to me, but... I would do this, but I fear that I don't have the time to do it in the next weeks. And who, exactly, do you think uses LyX in a travel agency? The vast majority of our users are students, academics or people who write for a living. Yes but the majority of students, mostly humanist, philologists etc., but also engineers have never used Linux and therefore don't know what a Unix shell is. I think LyXWin is a big chance to get more users due to its simplicity. To clearify my intention again: I installed LyXWin for users who e.g. didn't know how to create a startmenu entry. But they are able to work with LyX and want them also to be able to install LyX. My audience don't like to make decisions about programs they haven't heard about. LyX is essentially a frontend to LaTeX. It interfaces with a stack of other programs. To "hide" this from the user is just silly. And I thaught this is the intention of LyX. Most of the people I could convince to use LyXWin like it as they don't need to use LaTeX commands and don't need to know how the programs in the background are used to produce their output. But I don't want to hide the informations about the found programs. It was only an idea to get rid of the program path informations. That's why I want to have the "standard" installation as I proposed it. Fine. Then your "two radio buttons" as the first page will hide my next six ;-) Yes, if the user chooses "standard". - But in my opinion we shouldn't search for a PostScript viewer as we don't have a menu entry in LyX for View -> PostScript. So standard users wont have problems. You are using circular logic. There's no menu entry because no viewer was found. No viewer was found because we search in the PATH. The PATH was not adjusted to include (say) the GSView directory because we didn't set it in the installer... Oh, ähm, I should have known this. If advanced users add a menu entry for PostScript they know what they are doing and can set the viewer manually in the preferences. You can ignore this due to my fault above. regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
Jean-Marc Lasgouttes schrieb: So, when distiller is associated to .ps what happens when you double click? Does it transform the file to pdf and them show the said pdf? It is converted to pdf but not shown in any cases. If I remember correctly the default is to open it with acrobat. But you can also set the option that it is not shown. In this case this is a perfectly acceptable behaviour (what OSX does, actually). OK, but the conversion needs some time especially when you use many images in your file. I think that most people do _not_ have distiller installed, in any case. You are right. But in many institutes they have it installed by default. Because Adobe products are cheap for universities so that they bought an institute license. I just want to assure that the search for a PS viewer works for everybody. regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
I wrote: - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way we do for pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the ".ps" extension to "Acrobat Distiller" (a ps to pdf converter program). I've a solution: We read out the "OpenWithList" registry subentry "a" as we do it for .pdf. If the result path contains "acrobat" we read out the subentry "b". This can now be the path to ghostview or is empty. I'll try to implement it in the next days. regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
Angus Leeming wrote: Ok, here's what I think we should have for the first page. All those other pages will be visited only if the user explicitly wants to. No this is what I DON'T want! I want to have a page with two radion buttons, one for the advanced installation and one for standard. If the user chooses advanced the three pages for sh.exe, python, and perl appear as they do in your installer version. I think this soulution has been proved the last days as perfect for advanced users who want to play a bit. If the user chooses standard something similar to my installer version appears. The feedback I got this evening was that I also should get rid of the program path informations in the summary pages. They don't want to be bothered by that. If they know that a pdf viewer was found (no matter in which path the .exe is stored) they are happy. Please believe me and Asger that an average Win user don't know what python or UNIX or a shell is. If you don't believe me, go for example to the travel agency next to you and ask the people there (=average Win users) if they know what a shell is. To clearify my intention again: I installed LyXWin for users who e.g. didn't know how to create a startmenu entry. But they are able to work with LyX and want them also to be able to install LyX. My audience don't like to make decisions about programs they haven't heard about. That's why I want to have the standard installation as I proposed it. (As you can see, Uwe, your stuff to find the .pdf viewer works perfectly here.) Cl! At last some general annotations: - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way I do for pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the .ps extension to Acrobat Distiller (a ps to pdf converter program). I had a look at the PC's at work and that's the setting on many of the machines. It seems that some people don't use PostScript (Btw. me too). - But in my opinion we shouldn't search for a PostScript viewer as we don't have a menu entry in LyX for View - PostScript. So standard users wont have problems. If advanced users add a menu entry for PostScript they know what they are doing and can set the viewer manually in the preferences. best regards Uwe
Re: Windows installer, first page
Angus Leeming wrote: Ok, here's what I think we should have for the first page. All those other pages will be visited only if the user explicitly wants to. No this is what I DON'T want! I want to have a page with two radion buttons, one for the "advanced" installation and one for "standard". If the user chooses "advanced" the three pages for sh.exe, python, and perl appear as they do in your installer version. I think this soulution has been proved the last days as perfect for advanced users who want to play a bit. If the user chooses "standard" something similar to my installer version appears. The feedback I got this evening was that I also should get rid of the program path informations in the summary pages. They don't want to be bothered by that. If they know that a pdf viewer was found (no matter in which path the .exe is stored) they are happy. Please believe me and Asger that an average Win user don't know what python or UNIX or a shell is. If you don't believe me, go for example to the travel agency next to you and ask the people there (=average Win users) if they know what a shell is. To clearify my intention again: I installed LyXWin for users who e.g. didn't know how to create a startmenu entry. But they are able to work with LyX and want them also to be able to install LyX. My audience don't like to make decisions about programs they haven't heard about. That's why I want to have the "standard" installation as I proposed it. (As you can see, Uwe, your stuff to find the .pdf viewer works perfectly here.) Cl! At last some general annotations: - We can't search for a PostScript viewer in the way I do for pdf. Because if acrobat is installed it associates the ".ps" extension to "Acrobat Distiller" (a ps to pdf converter program). I had a look at the PC's at work and that's the setting on many of the machines. It seems that some people don't use PostScript (Btw. me too). - But in my opinion we shouldn't search for a PostScript viewer as we don't have a menu entry in LyX for View -> PostScript. So standard users wont have problems. If advanced users add a menu entry for PostScript they know what they are doing and can set the viewer manually in the preferences. best regards Uwe
