Getting Support: was: why people give up on open source software

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:32:55 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

 Product support, customer service, in general, sucks.  Online,
 offline, commercial, open source, just about everywhere.  For
 software these days, you are supposed to join a forum.  If I went
 back through all my forum posts asking for help, I think I'd be lucky
 to find 10% of them have had answers to my questions.

I changed the subject line because the old subject line infuriated me...

Getting support is difficult, but luckily there are things you can do
to make solution more likely. Certainly the first step if you're
asking for tech support is to read this and live by it:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Speaking for myself, when somebody majorly violates the tenants of the
preceding link, I never provide an answer, even if I know the answer by
heart. Life's too short, I'm too busy, and answering questions doesn't
pay the rent, so I have no need to be nice to the vast hoards of
unthinkers.

Next, and this is very pertinent to the LyX list, when submitting an
example of a bug, submit a minimal example. I mean continue to remove
things until anything else you remove makes the symptom disappear. This
accomplishes two things:

1) It probably solves your problem without help. If you can flip a
   symptom on and off by adding or removing one sentence, you're
   probably in a position to understand the mechanism of the problem.
2) It makes it much easier for anyone responding to you to reproduce
   your problem, and to quickly understand what's going on, and either
   tell you the answer or tell you where to look next.

Sometimes, when submitting a Minimum Example for a problem that seems
to be a LaTeX problem (actually my misuse of LaTeX would be more
accurate), I'll go so far as to code it in LaTeX, not LyX, and then
post the question. This rules out LyX, making it easier for the list
inhabitants to 1) Know whether the solution is within their area of
expertise, and 2) Rule out LyX right away. LyX-List inhabitants are
nice enough that they'll answer LaTeX questions, even though
technically LaTeX is not their product.

Having been on the LyX-Users list since 2001, I've seen a lot of help
requests come with giant LyX files. Does the submitter really expect
*me* to carve up his gigantic document in order to make a Minimum
Example? Well, that's not going to happen, because if it's too much
work for the guy who needs a solution, it's certainly too much work for
me.

Next, if you have an error message, put it in a search engine. You
might find a lot of valuable information.

I've found that the guy who answers a lot of questions for others gets
a lot of detailed and devoted help when he needs it. I've found this on
the LyX list the past 12 years. I help newbies with layouts and light
LaTeX and the like, and then the *big brains* on the list help me when I
have a showstopper problem. Pay it forward, and you'll get lots of
support.

Sometimes you post a concise symptom description and minimal example
and do everything right, and you know *someone* on the list has info,
but you're met with deafening silence. It's time for the patented,
can't miss, Steve Litt Answer-Getting Method (SLAGM). What you do is
make some sort of kludge to fix your symptom. For instance, with LyX it
might be to change your View-PDF (ps2pdf) so that it runs some sort of
awk script that copies your LyX file to a dummy, modifies the dummy, and
compiles *that*. You then get on the list and brag about your kludge,
except you don't call it a kludge, you call it a solution, and in a
subdued, low key way you make it obvious that you think you've displayed
cleverness in the solution. In less than 24 hours, all those people who
didn't have the time to answer your question will leapfrog each other
telling you how stupid your solution is, and providing better
solutions. You mix and match those better solutions to make your real
solution for yourself. Or, if nobody responds, or if people respond
hey man, that's a cool solution, then you actually use your kludge on
an ongoing basis. Either way, you have it solved, and you know your
solution is the best available.

And please, please, *PLEASE*, when your problem is finally solved, end
the thread with the solution, and mark the subject SOLVED, so other
people can benefit from what you learned. It costs nothing to do, and
makes the world a better place to live.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Getting Support: was: why people give up on open source software

[Ken Springer]

On 10/24/13 1:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:32:55 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:


Product support, customer service, in general, sucks.  Online,
offline, commercial, open source, just about everywhere.  For
software these days, you are supposed to join a forum.  If I went
back through all my forum posts asking for help, I think I'd be lucky
to find 10% of them have had answers to my questions.


I changed the subject line because the old subject line infuriated me...


Fortunately, changing the subject line doesn't break the threading for 
me.  G



Getting support is difficult, but luckily there are things you can do
to make solution more likely. Certainly the first step if you're
asking for tech support is to read this and live by it:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


Skimmed and bookmarked.  Just getting so far behind...


Speaking for myself, when somebody majorly violates the tenants of the
preceding link, I never provide an answer, even if I know the answer by
heart. Life's too short, I'm too busy, and answering questions doesn't
pay the rent, so I have no need to be nice to the vast hoards of
unthinkers.

Next, and this is very pertinent to the LyX list, when submitting an
example of a bug, submit a minimal example. I mean continue to remove
things until anything else you remove makes the symptom disappear. This
accomplishes two things:

1) It probably solves your problem without help. If you can flip a
symptom on and off by adding or removing one sentence, you're
probably in a position to understand the mechanism of the problem.
2) It makes it much easier for anyone responding to you to reproduce
your problem, and to quickly understand what's going on, and either
tell you the answer or tell you where to look next.


I've been in the fixit maintenance fields all my life.  This is just 
basic troubleshooting.  One thing I learned is many, if not most, people 
needing a fix of some kind didn't know enough about the subject to ask 
the right questions, or even describe the problem.  Just had a 
discussion elsewhere and the words image, copy, and backup were used 
interchangeably causing confusion.


I've also learned, sometimes what should be the obvious solution isn't 
the solution.  And something you just don't believe is the cause, turns 
out to be the cause.


I would contend the same problem exists with computer and software 
users.  They don't know enough about what they are using to be able to 
ask intelligent and clear questions.  :-(



Sometimes, when submitting a Minimum Example for a problem that seems
to be a LaTeX problem (actually my misuse of LaTeX would be more
accurate), I'll go so far as to code it in LaTeX, not LyX, and then
post the question. This rules out LyX, making it easier for the list
inhabitants to 1) Know whether the solution is within their area of
expertise, and 2) Rule out LyX right away. LyX-List inhabitants are
nice enough that they'll answer LaTeX questions, even though
technically LaTeX is not their product.


At this point, I couldn't code anything in LaTeX if our lives depended 
on it!LOL


But, that's the thing.  I want to use this tool called LyX, and by 
extension LaTeX, and others.  Not build it.



Having been on the LyX-Users list since 2001, I've seen a lot of help
requests come with giant LyX files. Does the submitter really expect
*me* to carve up his gigantic document in order to make a Minimum
Example? Well, that's not going to happen, because if it's too much
work for the guy who needs a solution, it's certainly too much work for
me.

Next, if you have an error message, put it in a search engine. You
might find a lot of valuable information.


A common suggestion, but not always the right answer when there is 
nothing specific to work from.  One, if the user doesn't know anything 
about what he/she's doing, how are they supposed to be able to do an 
adequate search of the web?  Two, some people like me, often just never 
seem to use the correct terms.  I can look, sometimes seemingly forever, 
for X in a search.  I tell one of my sisters what I'm looking for, and 
even though she knows little to nothing about what I'm looking for, in a 
few minutes she's got the answer(s).  Bugs the devil out of me.



I've found that the guy who answers a lot of questions for others gets
a lot of detailed and devoted help when he needs it. I've found this on
the LyX list the past 12 years. I help newbies with layouts and light
LaTeX and the like, and then the *big brains* on the list help me when I
have a showstopper problem. Pay it forward, and you'll get lots of
support.

Sometimes you post a concise symptom description and minimal example
and do everything right, and you know *someone* on the list has info,
but you're met with deafening silence. It's time for the patented,
can't miss, Steve Litt Answer-Getting Method (SLAGM). What you do is
make some sort of kludge to fix your symptom. For 

Getting Support: was: why people give up on open source software

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:32:55 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:

 Product support, customer service, in general, sucks.  Online,
 offline, commercial, open source, just about everywhere.  For
 software these days, you are supposed to join a forum.  If I went
 back through all my forum posts asking for help, I think I'd be lucky
 to find 10% of them have had answers to my questions.

I changed the subject line because the old subject line infuriated me...

Getting support is difficult, but luckily there are things you can do
to make solution more likely. Certainly the first step if you're
asking for tech support is to read this and live by it:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Speaking for myself, when somebody majorly violates the tenants of the
preceding link, I never provide an answer, even if I know the answer by
heart. Life's too short, I'm too busy, and answering questions doesn't
pay the rent, so I have no need to be nice to the vast hoards of
unthinkers.

Next, and this is very pertinent to the LyX list, when submitting an
example of a bug, submit a minimal example. I mean continue to remove
things until anything else you remove makes the symptom disappear. This
accomplishes two things:

1) It probably solves your problem without help. If you can flip a
   symptom on and off by adding or removing one sentence, you're
   probably in a position to understand the mechanism of the problem.
2) It makes it much easier for anyone responding to you to reproduce
   your problem, and to quickly understand what's going on, and either
   tell you the answer or tell you where to look next.

Sometimes, when submitting a Minimum Example for a problem that seems
to be a LaTeX problem (actually my misuse of LaTeX would be more
accurate), I'll go so far as to code it in LaTeX, not LyX, and then
post the question. This rules out LyX, making it easier for the list
inhabitants to 1) Know whether the solution is within their area of
expertise, and 2) Rule out LyX right away. LyX-List inhabitants are
nice enough that they'll answer LaTeX questions, even though
technically LaTeX is not their product.

Having been on the LyX-Users list since 2001, I've seen a lot of help
requests come with giant LyX files. Does the submitter really expect
*me* to carve up his gigantic document in order to make a Minimum
Example? Well, that's not going to happen, because if it's too much
work for the guy who needs a solution, it's certainly too much work for
me.

Next, if you have an error message, put it in a search engine. You
might find a lot of valuable information.

I've found that the guy who answers a lot of questions for others gets
a lot of detailed and devoted help when he needs it. I've found this on
the LyX list the past 12 years. I help newbies with layouts and light
LaTeX and the like, and then the *big brains* on the list help me when I
have a showstopper problem. Pay it forward, and you'll get lots of
support.

Sometimes you post a concise symptom description and minimal example
and do everything right, and you know *someone* on the list has info,
but you're met with deafening silence. It's time for the patented,
can't miss, Steve Litt Answer-Getting Method (SLAGM). What you do is
make some sort of kludge to fix your symptom. For instance, with LyX it
might be to change your View-PDF (ps2pdf) so that it runs some sort of
awk script that copies your LyX file to a dummy, modifies the dummy, and
compiles *that*. You then get on the list and brag about your kludge,
except you don't call it a kludge, you call it a solution, and in a
subdued, low key way you make it obvious that you think you've displayed
cleverness in the solution. In less than 24 hours, all those people who
didn't have the time to answer your question will leapfrog each other
telling you how stupid your solution is, and providing better
solutions. You mix and match those better solutions to make your real
solution for yourself. Or, if nobody responds, or if people respond
hey man, that's a cool solution, then you actually use your kludge on
an ongoing basis. Either way, you have it solved, and you know your
solution is the best available.

And please, please, *PLEASE*, when your problem is finally solved, end
the thread with the solution, and mark the subject SOLVED, so other
people can benefit from what you learned. It costs nothing to do, and
makes the world a better place to live.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Getting Support: was: why people give up on open source software

[Ken Springer]

On 10/24/13 1:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:32:55 -0600
Ken Springer snowsh...@q.com wrote:


Product support, customer service, in general, sucks.  Online,
offline, commercial, open source, just about everywhere.  For
software these days, you are supposed to join a forum.  If I went
back through all my forum posts asking for help, I think I'd be lucky
to find 10% of them have had answers to my questions.


I changed the subject line because the old subject line infuriated me...


Fortunately, changing the subject line doesn't break the threading for 
me.  G



Getting support is difficult, but luckily there are things you can do
to make solution more likely. Certainly the first step if you're
asking for tech support is to read this and live by it:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


Skimmed and bookmarked.  Just getting so far behind...


Speaking for myself, when somebody majorly violates the tenants of the
preceding link, I never provide an answer, even if I know the answer by
heart. Life's too short, I'm too busy, and answering questions doesn't
pay the rent, so I have no need to be nice to the vast hoards of
unthinkers.

Next, and this is very pertinent to the LyX list, when submitting an
example of a bug, submit a minimal example. I mean continue to remove
things until anything else you remove makes the symptom disappear. This
accomplishes two things:

1) It probably solves your problem without help. If you can flip a
symptom on and off by adding or removing one sentence, you're
probably in a position to understand the mechanism of the problem.
2) It makes it much easier for anyone responding to you to reproduce
your problem, and to quickly understand what's going on, and either
tell you the answer or tell you where to look next.


I've been in the fixit maintenance fields all my life.  This is just 
basic troubleshooting.  One thing I learned is many, if not most, people 
needing a fix of some kind didn't know enough about the subject to ask 
the right questions, or even describe the problem.  Just had a 
discussion elsewhere and the words image, copy, and backup were used 
interchangeably causing confusion.


I've also learned, sometimes what should be the obvious solution isn't 
the solution.  And something you just don't believe is the cause, turns 
out to be the cause.


I would contend the same problem exists with computer and software 
users.  They don't know enough about what they are using to be able to 
ask intelligent and clear questions.  :-(



Sometimes, when submitting a Minimum Example for a problem that seems
to be a LaTeX problem (actually my misuse of LaTeX would be more
accurate), I'll go so far as to code it in LaTeX, not LyX, and then
post the question. This rules out LyX, making it easier for the list
inhabitants to 1) Know whether the solution is within their area of
expertise, and 2) Rule out LyX right away. LyX-List inhabitants are
nice enough that they'll answer LaTeX questions, even though
technically LaTeX is not their product.


At this point, I couldn't code anything in LaTeX if our lives depended 
on it!LOL


But, that's the thing.  I want to use this tool called LyX, and by 
extension LaTeX, and others.  Not build it.



Having been on the LyX-Users list since 2001, I've seen a lot of help
requests come with giant LyX files. Does the submitter really expect
*me* to carve up his gigantic document in order to make a Minimum
Example? Well, that's not going to happen, because if it's too much
work for the guy who needs a solution, it's certainly too much work for
me.

Next, if you have an error message, put it in a search engine. You
might find a lot of valuable information.


A common suggestion, but not always the right answer when there is 
nothing specific to work from.  One, if the user doesn't know anything 
about what he/she's doing, how are they supposed to be able to do an 
adequate search of the web?  Two, some people like me, often just never 
seem to use the correct terms.  I can look, sometimes seemingly forever, 
for X in a search.  I tell one of my sisters what I'm looking for, and 
even though she knows little to nothing about what I'm looking for, in a 
few minutes she's got the answer(s).  Bugs the devil out of me.



I've found that the guy who answers a lot of questions for others gets
a lot of detailed and devoted help when he needs it. I've found this on
the LyX list the past 12 years. I help newbies with layouts and light
LaTeX and the like, and then the *big brains* on the list help me when I
have a showstopper problem. Pay it forward, and you'll get lots of
support.

Sometimes you post a concise symptom description and minimal example
and do everything right, and you know *someone* on the list has info,
but you're met with deafening silence. It's time for the patented,
can't miss, Steve Litt Answer-Getting Method (SLAGM). What you do is
make some sort of kludge to fix your symptom. For 

Getting Support: was: why people give up on open source software

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:32:55 -0600
Ken Springer  wrote:

> Product support, customer service, in general, sucks.  Online,
> offline, commercial, open source, just about everywhere.  For
> software these days, you are supposed to join a forum.  If I went
> back through all my forum posts asking for help, I think I'd be lucky
> to find 10% of them have had answers to my questions.

I changed the subject line because the old subject line infuriated me...

Getting support is difficult, but luckily there are things you can do
to make solution more likely. Certainly the first step if you're
asking for tech support is to read this and live by it:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Speaking for myself, when somebody majorly violates the tenants of the
preceding link, I never provide an answer, even if I know the answer by
heart. Life's too short, I'm too busy, and answering questions doesn't
pay the rent, so I have no need to be nice to the vast hoards of
unthinkers.

Next, and this is very pertinent to the LyX list, when submitting an
example of a bug, submit a minimal example. I mean continue to remove
things until anything else you remove makes the symptom disappear. This
accomplishes two things:

1) It probably solves your problem without help. If you can flip a
   symptom on and off by adding or removing one sentence, you're
   probably in a position to understand the mechanism of the problem.
2) It makes it much easier for anyone responding to you to reproduce
   your problem, and to quickly understand what's going on, and either
   tell you the answer or tell you where to look next.

Sometimes, when submitting a Minimum Example for a problem that seems
to be a LaTeX problem (actually my misuse of LaTeX would be more
accurate), I'll go so far as to code it in LaTeX, not LyX, and then
post the question. This rules out LyX, making it easier for the list
inhabitants to 1) Know whether the solution is within their area of
expertise, and 2) Rule out LyX right away. LyX-List inhabitants are
nice enough that they'll answer LaTeX questions, even though
technically LaTeX is not their product.

Having been on the LyX-Users list since 2001, I've seen a lot of help
requests come with giant LyX files. Does the submitter really expect
*me* to carve up his gigantic document in order to make a Minimum
Example? Well, that's not going to happen, because if it's too much
work for the guy who needs a solution, it's certainly too much work for
me.

Next, if you have an error message, put it in a search engine. You
might find a lot of valuable information.

I've found that the guy who answers a lot of questions for others gets
a lot of detailed and devoted help when he needs it. I've found this on
the LyX list the past 12 years. I help newbies with layouts and light
LaTeX and the like, and then the *big brains* on the list help me when I
have a showstopper problem. Pay it forward, and you'll get lots of
support.

Sometimes you post a concise symptom description and minimal example
and do everything right, and you know *someone* on the list has info,
but you're met with deafening silence. It's time for the patented,
can't miss, Steve Litt Answer-Getting Method (SLAGM). What you do is
make some sort of kludge to fix your symptom. For instance, with LyX it
might be to change your View->PDF (ps2pdf) so that it runs some sort of
awk script that copies your LyX file to a dummy, modifies the dummy, and
compiles *that*. You then get on the list and brag about your kludge,
except you don't call it a kludge, you call it a solution, and in a
subdued, low key way you make it obvious that you think you've displayed
cleverness in the solution. In less than 24 hours, all those people who
didn't have the time to answer your question will leapfrog each other
telling you how stupid your solution is, and providing better
solutions. You mix and match those better solutions to make your real
solution for yourself. Or, if nobody responds, or if people respond
"hey man, that's a cool solution", then you actually use your kludge on
an ongoing basis. Either way, you have it solved, and you know your
solution is the best available.

And please, please, *PLEASE*, when your problem is finally solved, end
the thread with the solution, and mark the subject , so other
people can benefit from what you learned. It costs nothing to do, and
makes the world a better place to live.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

Re: Getting Support: was: why people give up on open source software

[Ken Springer]

On 10/24/13 1:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:32:55 -0600
Ken Springer  wrote:


Product support, customer service, in general, sucks.  Online,
offline, commercial, open source, just about everywhere.  For
software these days, you are supposed to join a forum.  If I went
back through all my forum posts asking for help, I think I'd be lucky
to find 10% of them have had answers to my questions.


I changed the subject line because the old subject line infuriated me...


Fortunately, changing the subject line doesn't break the threading for 
me.  



Getting support is difficult, but luckily there are things you can do
to make solution more likely. Certainly the first step if you're
asking for tech support is to read this and live by it:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


Skimmed and bookmarked.  Just getting so far behind...


Speaking for myself, when somebody majorly violates the tenants of the
preceding link, I never provide an answer, even if I know the answer by
heart. Life's too short, I'm too busy, and answering questions doesn't
pay the rent, so I have no need to be nice to the vast hoards of
unthinkers.

Next, and this is very pertinent to the LyX list, when submitting an
example of a bug, submit a minimal example. I mean continue to remove
things until anything else you remove makes the symptom disappear. This
accomplishes two things:

1) It probably solves your problem without help. If you can flip a
symptom on and off by adding or removing one sentence, you're
probably in a position to understand the mechanism of the problem.
2) It makes it much easier for anyone responding to you to reproduce
your problem, and to quickly understand what's going on, and either
tell you the answer or tell you where to look next.


I've been in the "fixit" maintenance fields all my life.  This is just 
basic troubleshooting.  One thing I learned is many, if not most, people 
needing a "fix" of some kind didn't know enough about the subject to ask 
the right questions, or even describe the problem.  Just had a 
discussion elsewhere and the words image, copy, and backup were used 
interchangeably causing confusion.


I've also learned, sometimes what should be the obvious solution isn't 
the solution.  And something you just don't believe is the cause, turns 
out to be the cause.


I would contend the same problem exists with computer and software 
users.  They don't know enough about what they are using to be able to 
ask intelligent and clear questions.  :-(



Sometimes, when submitting a Minimum Example for a problem that seems
to be a LaTeX problem (actually my misuse of LaTeX would be more
accurate), I'll go so far as to code it in LaTeX, not LyX, and then
post the question. This rules out LyX, making it easier for the list
inhabitants to 1) Know whether the solution is within their area of
expertise, and 2) Rule out LyX right away. LyX-List inhabitants are
nice enough that they'll answer LaTeX questions, even though
technically LaTeX is not their product.


At this point, I couldn't code anything in LaTeX if our lives depended 
on it!LOL


But, that's the thing.  I want to use this tool called LyX, and by 
extension LaTeX, and others.  Not build it.



Having been on the LyX-Users list since 2001, I've seen a lot of help
requests come with giant LyX files. Does the submitter really expect
*me* to carve up his gigantic document in order to make a Minimum
Example? Well, that's not going to happen, because if it's too much
work for the guy who needs a solution, it's certainly too much work for
me.

Next, if you have an error message, put it in a search engine. You
might find a lot of valuable information.


A common suggestion, but not always the right answer when there is 
nothing specific to work from.  One, if the user doesn't know anything 
about what he/she's doing, how are they supposed to be able to do an 
adequate search of the web?  Two, some people like me, often just never 
seem to use the correct terms.  I can look, sometimes seemingly forever, 
for X in a search.  I tell one of my sisters what I'm looking for, and 
even though she knows little to nothing about what I'm looking for, in a 
few minutes she's got the answer(s).  Bugs the devil out of me.



I've found that the guy who answers a lot of questions for others gets
a lot of detailed and devoted help when he needs it. I've found this on
the LyX list the past 12 years. I help newbies with layouts and light
LaTeX and the like, and then the *big brains* on the list help me when I
have a showstopper problem. Pay it forward, and you'll get lots of
support.

Sometimes you post a concise symptom description and minimal example
and do everything right, and you know *someone* on the list has info,
but you're met with deafening silence. It's time for the patented,
can't miss, Steve Litt Answer-Getting Method (SLAGM). What you do is
make some sort of kludge to fix your symptom. For