Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/03/14 20:17, stefano franchi wrote:
 1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
 sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
 at its fullest

this one seems to me what we should aim for -- the most ambitious goal
of interoperability among the two. If you're collaborating with colleagues
and need LibreOffice round trips, you'll learn with time which latex
constructs are compatible and preserved, and which ones are instead
wiped out in the round-trip, and you'll avoid them.

 2. Instruct the exporter to produces images of math expressions
 instead of MathML, and leave the job to create a perfect-looking math
 expression in LibreOffice/Word to the publisher/typesetter.

this would make sense if there's a way to instruct LibreOffice in a
way in which you can:
-) right-click on the image, pick Modify image
-) then you get a text editor open, with your LaTeX formula
-) once you save back, it is latex-dvi-pdf-ed back again into the .odt
Would that be possible?

In my experience, the only times I needed non-latex sources, was because
I was asked for MS Word format for the camera ready (my colleagues forced
me into round-tripping with latex, actually :-) ). In that moment, what
I'd need most, is the 2nd option in which I get all equations perfectly
right, but in form of (vectorial) images. But it's actually .docx that
publishers ask for, not .odt!

T.

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Murat Yildizoglu]

Dear Stefano,

2014-03-13 21:17 GMT+01:00 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com:

 === QUESTIONS

 So the questions are:

 1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?


Yes, sometime  a collaboration with a specific user or a submission with a
specific journal could imply a switch to the OO/Word format.


 2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your
 documents?


Yes, very common in my case.



 3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
 send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
 so on)


See my reply to 1.

Do you think that the call to another component could help the conversion
process? I have in mind the Tex2Word module for Word that makes use of the
MathType software (the free version is enough normally).

Or the TexMaths for OO/LO :
http://roland65.free.fr/texmaths/

Both of them understand LaTeX code for equations.

Thank you for taking time to develop such a tool that will be very useful I
think.

Murat




-- 


*Prof. Murat Yildizoglu*

Note: Please use the following address as such

UNIVERSITE DE BORDEAUX
GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
MURAT YILDIZOGLU
16 AVENUE LEON DUGUIT
CS 50057
33608 PESSAC CEDEX
FRANCE

Bureau : E-331

mail: yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

web: yildizoglu.info

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/03/14 20:17, stefano franchi wrote:
 1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
 sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
 at its fullest

this one seems to me what we should aim for -- the most ambitious goal
of interoperability among the two. If you're collaborating with colleagues
and need LibreOffice round trips, you'll learn with time which latex
constructs are compatible and preserved, and which ones are instead
wiped out in the round-trip, and you'll avoid them.

 2. Instruct the exporter to produces images of math expressions
 instead of MathML, and leave the job to create a perfect-looking math
 expression in LibreOffice/Word to the publisher/typesetter.

this would make sense if there's a way to instruct LibreOffice in a
way in which you can:
-) right-click on the image, pick Modify image
-) then you get a text editor open, with your LaTeX formula
-) once you save back, it is latex-dvi-pdf-ed back again into the .odt
Would that be possible?

In my experience, the only times I needed non-latex sources, was because
I was asked for MS Word format for the camera ready (my colleagues forced
me into round-tripping with latex, actually :-) ). In that moment, what
I'd need most, is the 2nd option in which I get all equations perfectly
right, but in form of (vectorial) images. But it's actually .docx that
publishers ask for, not .odt!

T.

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Murat Yildizoglu]

Dear Stefano,

2014-03-13 21:17 GMT+01:00 stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com:

 === QUESTIONS

 So the questions are:

 1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?


Yes, sometime  a collaboration with a specific user or a submission with a
specific journal could imply a switch to the OO/Word format.


 2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your
 documents?


Yes, very common in my case.



 3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
 send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
 so on)


See my reply to 1.

Do you think that the call to another component could help the conversion
process? I have in mind the Tex2Word module for Word that makes use of the
MathType software (the free version is enough normally).

Or the TexMaths for OO/LO :
http://roland65.free.fr/texmaths/

Both of them understand LaTeX code for equations.

Thank you for taking time to develop such a tool that will be very useful I
think.

Murat




-- 


*Prof. Murat Yildizoglu*

Note: Please use the following address as such

UNIVERSITE DE BORDEAUX
GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
MURAT YILDIZOGLU
16 AVENUE LEON DUGUIT
CS 50057
33608 PESSAC CEDEX
FRANCE

Bureau : E-331

mail: yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

web: yildizoglu.info

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Tommaso Cucinotta]

On 13/03/14 20:17, stefano franchi wrote:
> 1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
> sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
> at its fullest

this one seems to me what we should aim for -- the most ambitious goal
of interoperability among the two. If you're collaborating with colleagues
and need LibreOffice round trips, you'll learn with time which latex
constructs are compatible and preserved, and which ones are instead
wiped out in the round-trip, and you'll avoid them.

> 2. Instruct the exporter to produces images of math expressions
> instead of MathML, and leave the job to create a perfect-looking math
> expression in LibreOffice/Word to the publisher/typesetter.

this would make sense if there's a way to instruct LibreOffice in a
way in which you can:
-) right-click on the image, pick "Modify image"
-) then you get a text editor open, with your LaTeX formula
-) once you save back, it is latex-dvi-pdf-ed back again into the .odt
Would that be possible?

In my experience, the only times I needed non-latex sources, was because
I was asked for MS Word format for the camera ready (my colleagues forced
me into round-tripping with latex, actually :-) ). In that moment, what
I'd need most, is the 2nd option in which I get all equations perfectly
right, but in form of (vectorial) images. But it's actually .docx that
publishers ask for, not .odt!

T.

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Murat Yildizoglu]

Dear Stefano,

2014-03-13 21:17 GMT+01:00 stefano franchi :

> === QUESTIONS
>
> So the questions are:
>
> 1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?
>

Yes, sometime  a collaboration with a specific user or a submission with a
specific journal could imply a switch to the OO/Word format.


> 2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your
> documents?
>

Yes, very common in my case.


>
> 3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
> send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
> so on)
>

See my reply to 1.

Do you think that the call to another component could help the conversion
process? I have in mind the Tex2Word module for Word that makes use of the
MathType software (the free version is enough normally).

Or the TexMaths for OO/LO :
http://roland65.free.fr/texmaths/

Both of them understand LaTeX code for equations.

Thank you for taking time to develop such a tool that will be very useful I
think.

Murat




-- 


*Prof. Murat Yildizoglu*

Note: Please use the following address as such

UNIVERSITE DE BORDEAUX
GREThA (UMR CNRS 5113)
MURAT YILDIZOGLU
16 AVENUE LEON DUGUIT
CS 50057
33608 PESSAC CEDEX
FRANCE

Bureau : E-331

mail: yildi-at-u-bordeaux4.fr

web: yildizoglu.info

Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[stefano franchi]

Dear LyX devels and users,

an issue has come up in our current efforts to produce a reliable
LibreOffice exporter/converter from LyX that concerns how to export
mathematical expressions. We need some user input and common use cases
to make sensible design choices. Feel free to skip the technical
details below and jump directly to the questions at the end, if you
want.

==PROBLEM==
Here is the problem:

We can export a math expression to a LibreOffice/ODt file as MathML
(there are still issues, but assume for the moment that the export
will be perfect). However, LIbreOffice's supports only a limited
subset of the MathML standard, and does not even use such MathML
internally (it uses a format  called StarMath that resembles very much
the troff/eqn format but is much less expressive,  for those who are
interested in this kind of things).
Moreover, LibreOffice uses the Semantic version of MathML, whereas
the exporter uses the Presentation version, which further
complicates issues.

We are thus faced with a design choice:

1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
at its fullest

2. Instruct the exporter to produces images of math expressions
instead of MathML, and leave the job to create a perfect-looking math
expression in LibreOffice/Word to the publisher/typesetter.

Notice that in either case we could store the original LaTeX
expression in the XML file for further processing (for instance for a
return conversion to LyX).

The choice between (1) and (2), in my opinion, depends on the most
common use cases.

A. If the consumer of an exported word file is a  publisher and the
mathematical expressions are complicated, then option (2) seems more
reasonable. LibreOffice intrinsic limitations makes it very difficult
if not impossible to produce a satisfactory, editable  formula from a
complex LaTeX expression.

B. On the other hand, if the  math expressions are relatively simple,
then aiming for editable formulas may be an achievable goal

C. Finally, if the consumer is a colleague with whom you
collaborate, (2) seems to make more sense: editing will be carried out
on the LyX/LaTeX side.

=== QUESTIONS

So the questions are:

1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your documents?

3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
so on)

==

Feedback welcome!!


Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Les Denham]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:17:19 -0500
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

 1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

Yes.
 
 2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your
 documents?

Only occasionally.
 
 3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
 send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
 so on)

Nearly everyone I send a document to requires it in an MS Word
format, usually with the choice of .doc, .docx, or .rtf. Where I am in
a position to push the envelope, I try sending PDF. This is sometimes
rewarded by getting as a return copy a totally garbled automatic
translation from PDF to DOCX. But when the other party is a client, an
employer, or a publisher I have little choice but to comply.

Les

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[David L. Johnson]

On 03/13/2014 04:17 PM, stefano franchi wrote:

We can export a math expression to a LibreOffice/ODt file as MathML
(there are still issues, but assume for the moment that the export
will be perfect). However, LIbreOffice's supports only a limited
subset of the MathML standard, and does not even use such MathML
internally (it uses a format  called StarMath that resembles very much
the troff/eqn format but is much less expressive,  for those who are
interested in this kind of things).
Moreover, LibreOffice uses the Semantic version of MathML, whereas
the exporter uses the Presentation version, which further
complicates issues.
I am not familiar with LibreOffice's math capabilities, but as far as I 
recall Word's version was mostly limited to displayed equations, with 
not much at all inline.  That makes a difference here.  If LO can manage 
significant inline math expressions, then it would be a real problem to 
have them exported as images.  Displayed equations can be at least moved 
around as images, though that still will be limiting.


We are thus faced with a design choice:

1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
at its fullest

editable is good, IMNSHO.




=== QUESTIONS

So the questions are:

1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

Not really.


2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your documents?

3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
so on)




--
 
David L. Johnson

Department of Mathematics
Lehigh University

Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[stefano franchi]

Dear LyX devels and users,

an issue has come up in our current efforts to produce a reliable
LibreOffice exporter/converter from LyX that concerns how to export
mathematical expressions. We need some user input and common use cases
to make sensible design choices. Feel free to skip the technical
details below and jump directly to the questions at the end, if you
want.

==PROBLEM==
Here is the problem:

We can export a math expression to a LibreOffice/ODt file as MathML
(there are still issues, but assume for the moment that the export
will be perfect). However, LIbreOffice's supports only a limited
subset of the MathML standard, and does not even use such MathML
internally (it uses a format  called StarMath that resembles very much
the troff/eqn format but is much less expressive,  for those who are
interested in this kind of things).
Moreover, LibreOffice uses the Semantic version of MathML, whereas
the exporter uses the Presentation version, which further
complicates issues.

We are thus faced with a design choice:

1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
at its fullest

2. Instruct the exporter to produces images of math expressions
instead of MathML, and leave the job to create a perfect-looking math
expression in LibreOffice/Word to the publisher/typesetter.

Notice that in either case we could store the original LaTeX
expression in the XML file for further processing (for instance for a
return conversion to LyX).

The choice between (1) and (2), in my opinion, depends on the most
common use cases.

A. If the consumer of an exported word file is a  publisher and the
mathematical expressions are complicated, then option (2) seems more
reasonable. LibreOffice intrinsic limitations makes it very difficult
if not impossible to produce a satisfactory, editable  formula from a
complex LaTeX expression.

B. On the other hand, if the  math expressions are relatively simple,
then aiming for editable formulas may be an achievable goal

C. Finally, if the consumer is a colleague with whom you
collaborate, (2) seems to make more sense: editing will be carried out
on the LyX/LaTeX side.

=== QUESTIONS

So the questions are:

1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your documents?

3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
so on)

==

Feedback welcome!!


Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas AM University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Les Denham]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:17:19 -0500
stefano franchi stefano.fran...@gmail.com wrote:

 1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

Yes.
 
 2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your
 documents?

Only occasionally.
 
 3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
 send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
 so on)

Nearly everyone I send a document to requires it in an MS Word
format, usually with the choice of .doc, .docx, or .rtf. Where I am in
a position to push the envelope, I try sending PDF. This is sometimes
rewarded by getting as a return copy a totally garbled automatic
translation from PDF to DOCX. But when the other party is a client, an
employer, or a publisher I have little choice but to comply.

Les

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[David L. Johnson]

On 03/13/2014 04:17 PM, stefano franchi wrote:

We can export a math expression to a LibreOffice/ODt file as MathML
(there are still issues, but assume for the moment that the export
will be perfect). However, LIbreOffice's supports only a limited
subset of the MathML standard, and does not even use such MathML
internally (it uses a format  called StarMath that resembles very much
the troff/eqn format but is much less expressive,  for those who are
interested in this kind of things).
Moreover, LibreOffice uses the Semantic version of MathML, whereas
the exporter uses the Presentation version, which further
complicates issues.
I am not familiar with LibreOffice's math capabilities, but as far as I 
recall Word's version was mostly limited to displayed equations, with 
not much at all inline.  That makes a difference here.  If LO can manage 
significant inline math expressions, then it would be a real problem to 
have them exported as images.  Displayed equations can be at least moved 
around as images, though that still will be limiting.


We are thus faced with a design choice:

1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
at its fullest

editable is good, IMNSHO.




=== QUESTIONS

So the questions are:

1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

Not really.


2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your documents?

3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
so on)




--
 
David L. Johnson

Department of Mathematics
Lehigh University

Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[stefano franchi]

Dear LyX devels and users,

an issue has come up in our current efforts to produce a reliable
LibreOffice exporter/converter from LyX that concerns how to export
mathematical expressions. We need some user input and common use cases
to make sensible design choices. Feel free to skip the technical
details below and jump directly to the questions at the end, if you
want.

==PROBLEM==
Here is the problem:

We can export a math expression to a LibreOffice/ODt file as MathML
(there are still issues, but assume for the moment that the export
will be perfect). However, LIbreOffice's supports only a limited
subset of the MathML standard, and does not even use such MathML
internally (it uses a format  called StarMath that resembles very much
the troff/eqn format but is much less expressive,  for those who are
interested in this kind of things).
Moreover, LibreOffice uses the "Semantic" version of MathML, whereas
the exporter uses the "Presentation" version, which further
complicates issues.

We are thus faced with a design choice:

1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
at its fullest

2. Instruct the exporter to produces images of math expressions
instead of MathML, and leave the job to create a perfect-looking math
expression in LibreOffice/Word to the publisher/typesetter.

Notice that in either case we could store the original LaTeX
expression in the XML file for further processing (for instance for a
return conversion to LyX).

The choice between (1) and (2), in my opinion, depends on the most
common use cases.

A. If the "consumer" of an exported word file is a  publisher and the
mathematical expressions are complicated, then option (2) seems more
reasonable. LibreOffice intrinsic limitations makes it very difficult
if not impossible to produce a satisfactory, editable  formula from a
complex LaTeX expression.

B. On the other hand, if the  math expressions are relatively simple,
then aiming for editable formulas may be an achievable goal

C. Finally, if the "consumer" is a colleague with whom you
collaborate, (2) seems to make more sense: editing will be carried out
on the LyX/LaTeX side.

=== QUESTIONS

So the questions are:

1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your documents?

3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
so on)

==

Feedback welcome!!


Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Associate Research Professor
Department of Hispanic Studies Ph:   +1 (979) 845-2125
Texas A University  Fax:  +1 (979) 845-6421
College Station, Texas, USA

stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[Les Denham]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014 15:17:19 -0500
stefano franchi  wrote:

> 1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

Yes.
> 
> 2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your
> documents?

Only occasionally.
> 
> 3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
> send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
> so on)

Nearly everyone I send a document to "requires" it in an MS Word
format, usually with the choice of ".doc, .docx, or .rtf". Where I am in
a position to push the envelope, I try sending PDF. This is sometimes
rewarded by getting as a return copy a totally garbled automatic
translation from PDF to DOCX. But when the other party is a client, an
employer, or a publisher I have little choice but to comply.

Les

Re: Math in LibreOffice/Word exported files: input needed

[David L. Johnson]

On 03/13/2014 04:17 PM, stefano franchi wrote:

We can export a math expression to a LibreOffice/ODt file as MathML
(there are still issues, but assume for the moment that the export
will be perfect). However, LIbreOffice's supports only a limited
subset of the MathML standard, and does not even use such MathML
internally (it uses a format  called StarMath that resembles very much
the troff/eqn format but is much less expressive,  for those who are
interested in this kind of things).
Moreover, LibreOffice uses the "Semantic" version of MathML, whereas
the exporter uses the "Presentation" version, which further
complicates issues.
I am not familiar with LibreOffice's math capabilities, but as far as I 
recall Word's version was mostly limited to displayed equations, with 
not much at all inline.  That makes a difference here.  If LO can manage 
significant inline math expressions, then it would be a real problem to 
have them exported as images.  Displayed equations can be at least moved 
around as images, though that still will be limiting.


We are thus faced with a design choice:

1. Leave the exporter as it is and be left with imperfect and
sometimes incomplete but editable math expressions when LaTeX is used
at its fullest

editable is good, IMNSHO.




=== QUESTIONS

So the questions are:

1. Are you a potential user of a Word/LibreOffice export converters?

Not really.


2. If so, do you use routinely use mathematical expressions in your documents?

3. Why do you/would you need to export to LibreOffice/Word format? (to
send the documents to publishers, mentors, advisors, colleagues, and
so on)




--
 
David L. Johnson

Department of Mathematics
Lehigh University