Re: Tables stuff
Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) No. In the first case the width of your table is 10 cm + \tabcolsep, in the latter 10cm + 9 \tabcolsep. This is standard LaTeX behaviour. Andre' Aha! That explains a similar problem I had some time ago. I find I use multicolumns a lot to get irregular tables to line up properly. I don't know if that is a correct use of multicolumns, but it works for what I need. Generally: I am using latex for more than ten years and for me the table-handling of lyx is a _very_ strong argument for using it. ;-) Ciao! juh I totally agree with this. Tony.
Re: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: Ok, *my* frustration with tables: 1. Table size. It would be very nice if the table would default to the size delimetered by page's margins. This is not posible and is a design option. LaTeX does permit tabulars larger then the page size and it's you who have to look to not make it larger. As LyX is based on LaTeX this behaviour is right in this sense. 2. Many glitches. For example, right clicking on a cell and selecting Width sometimes didn't have any effect. I had to specify "10cm" several times (clicking "Close", then right-clicking on the cell again showed nothing in the "Width" field, until after several repetitions). Also, in some cells I cannot turn on Linebreaks for no apparent reason (grayed out). Yes I've seen this problem too. What version are you using? I fixed this in the last lyx-1.0.4preX versions! 3. Table alignment. My first table is indented about 7cm from the left. I tried selecting the whole thing, going into LayoutParagraph, and chosing "Left" alignment, and even "No indent", and none of this cured the problem (the table is still indented too much). BTW, a second table just below the first one was aligned differently by default (a little less, but still too much), and I couldn't find a way to make them line up on a page. Then at one point they aligned at the same distance on the left, but aligning them on the right took deliverate experimenting with column sizes, to produce the same total lenths. I don't know what problem you have here, but aligning tables on the left and on the right is possible without problems with the Layout-Paragraph menu! (at least here I don't see ANY problem with that) Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) But the whole point is that such alignments should happen automagically in WYSIWYM approach, and I hate to spoil the experience by having to specify hard sizes of the table. :^( As alredy told you, NO they aren't of the same size and it seems very logically to me! (just look at the additional vertical lines you have!) It would be nice to be able select the whole table and give it Centered, Left, Right etc alignments. What do you mean, the single table cells or the whole table? Both is possible, the first with the Table-Layout menu selecting all cells in the table and the second with layout-paragraph! 4. I would like to be able chose horizontal and vertical alignment of text within a cell. Right now I was not able to achive centered vertical alignment of a word in a long cell (it aligned at the very top by default). Maybe I just don't know how to do it? ;^) You're right with this vertical alignment is not possible yet! If someone explains me how to do this in raw LaTeX I could add some support, but only in the upcoming 1.2 version! 5. If I hit C-Return in a cell, it creates whitespace in the LyX view, which is impossible to get rid of (it doesn't appear in the output, alright, but it is frustrating and messes up relative vertical alignment of text in the columns of the same raw. No problem with that too. If you acidentally hit C-Return and don't want that empty line, just delete it using the table-layout-menu ;) But generally speaking, it took me forever, and the two tables still don't look the way I would like them to. :( If it would be helpful, I could email you or post the file with them (there's nothing else in the file). It might visualize what I'm talking about. Just send it to me with some explanations and I'll have a look :) I hope you take my post as an attempt to be useful, not as a whine. ;^) Sure not, but as you see above there's really not much I can do to make it better as most of the stuff you said IS working (at least I hope it does ;) Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal. -- Zaphod Beeblebrox -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Re: Tables stuff
On 08-Sep-99 Michael Hanke wrote:
You're right with this vertical alignment is not possible yet! If someone
explains me how to do this in raw LaTeX I could add some support, but only
in the upcoming 1.2 version!
Maybe, I can help here: the array package as explained in the latex
companion sect 5.3 can be a solution.
Ok (I've all the documentation, but sometimes I'm a bit lazy to look
into it ;). The vertical alignment can be realized also with the actual
lyx version. Go into the Extra-Options and insert for the column (or
the cell if it is a multicolumn-cell) the option m{n} f.ex. m{10cm}
and now this cell has a verticall middle alignment.
Greets Jürgen
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260
I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042
ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug
Ask not for whom the telephone bell tolls...
if thou art in the bathtub, it tolls for thee.
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Re: Tables stuff
Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) No. In the first case the width of your table is 10 cm + \tabcolsep, in the latter 10cm + 9 \tabcolsep. This is standard LaTeX behaviour. Andre' Aha! That explains a similar problem I had some time ago. I find I use multicolumns a lot to get irregular tables to line up properly. I don't know if that is a correct use of multicolumns, but it works for what I need. Generally: I am using latex for more than ten years and for me the table-handling of lyx is a _very_ strong argument for using it. ;-) Ciao! juh I totally agree with this. Tony.
Re: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: Ok, *my* frustration with tables: 1. Table size. It would be very nice if the table would default to the size delimetered by page's margins. This is not posible and is a design option. LaTeX does permit tabulars larger then the page size and it's you who have to look to not make it larger. As LyX is based on LaTeX this behaviour is right in this sense. 2. Many glitches. For example, right clicking on a cell and selecting Width sometimes didn't have any effect. I had to specify "10cm" several times (clicking "Close", then right-clicking on the cell again showed nothing in the "Width" field, until after several repetitions). Also, in some cells I cannot turn on Linebreaks for no apparent reason (grayed out). Yes I've seen this problem too. What version are you using? I fixed this in the last lyx-1.0.4preX versions! 3. Table alignment. My first table is indented about 7cm from the left. I tried selecting the whole thing, going into LayoutParagraph, and chosing "Left" alignment, and even "No indent", and none of this cured the problem (the table is still indented too much). BTW, a second table just below the first one was aligned differently by default (a little less, but still too much), and I couldn't find a way to make them line up on a page. Then at one point they aligned at the same distance on the left, but aligning them on the right took deliverate experimenting with column sizes, to produce the same total lenths. I don't know what problem you have here, but aligning tables on the left and on the right is possible without problems with the Layout-Paragraph menu! (at least here I don't see ANY problem with that) Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) But the whole point is that such alignments should happen automagically in WYSIWYM approach, and I hate to spoil the experience by having to specify hard sizes of the table. :^( As alredy told you, NO they aren't of the same size and it seems very logically to me! (just look at the additional vertical lines you have!) It would be nice to be able select the whole table and give it Centered, Left, Right etc alignments. What do you mean, the single table cells or the whole table? Both is possible, the first with the Table-Layout menu selecting all cells in the table and the second with layout-paragraph! 4. I would like to be able chose horizontal and vertical alignment of text within a cell. Right now I was not able to achive centered vertical alignment of a word in a long cell (it aligned at the very top by default). Maybe I just don't know how to do it? ;^) You're right with this vertical alignment is not possible yet! If someone explains me how to do this in raw LaTeX I could add some support, but only in the upcoming 1.2 version! 5. If I hit C-Return in a cell, it creates whitespace in the LyX view, which is impossible to get rid of (it doesn't appear in the output, alright, but it is frustrating and messes up relative vertical alignment of text in the columns of the same raw. No problem with that too. If you acidentally hit C-Return and don't want that empty line, just delete it using the table-layout-menu ;) But generally speaking, it took me forever, and the two tables still don't look the way I would like them to. :( If it would be helpful, I could email you or post the file with them (there's nothing else in the file). It might visualize what I'm talking about. Just send it to me with some explanations and I'll have a look :) I hope you take my post as an attempt to be useful, not as a whine. ;^) Sure not, but as you see above there's really not much I can do to make it better as most of the stuff you said IS working (at least I hope it does ;) Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal. -- Zaphod Beeblebrox -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Re: Tables stuff
On 08-Sep-99 Michael Hanke wrote:
You're right with this vertical alignment is not possible yet! If someone
explains me how to do this in raw LaTeX I could add some support, but only
in the upcoming 1.2 version!
Maybe, I can help here: the array package as explained in the latex
companion sect 5.3 can be a solution.
Ok (I've all the documentation, but sometimes I'm a bit lazy to look
into it ;). The vertical alignment can be realized also with the actual
lyx version. Go into the Extra-Options and insert for the column (or
the cell if it is a multicolumn-cell) the option m{n} f.ex. m{10cm}
and now this cell has a verticall middle alignment.
Greets Jürgen
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260
I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042
ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug
Ask not for whom the telephone bell tolls...
if thou art in the bathtub, it tolls for thee.
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Re: Tables stuff
> > Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a > > table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) > > No. In the first case the width of your table is 10 cm + \tabcolsep, > in the latter 10cm + 9 \tabcolsep. This is standard LaTeX behaviour. > > Andre' Aha! That explains a similar problem I had some time ago. I find I use multicolumns a lot to get irregular tables to line up properly. I don't know if that is a correct use of multicolumns, but it works for what I need. > Generally: I am using latex for more than ten years and for me > the table-handling of lyx is a _very_ strong argument for using > it. ;-) > > Ciao! > juh I totally agree with this. Tony.
Re: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: > > Ok, *my* frustration with tables: > > 1. Table size. It would be very nice if the table would default to the > size delimetered by page's margins. > This is not posible and is a design option. LaTeX does permit tabulars larger then the page size and it's you who have to look to not make it larger. As LyX is based on LaTeX this behaviour is right in this sense. > 2. Many glitches. For example, right clicking on a cell and selecting > Width sometimes didn't have any effect. I had to specify "10cm" > several times (clicking "Close", then right-clicking on the cell again > showed nothing in the "Width" field, until after several > repetitions). Also, in some cells I cannot turn on Linebreaks for no > apparent reason (grayed out). > Yes I've seen this problem too. What version are you using? I fixed this in the last lyx-1.0.4preX versions! > 3. Table alignment. My first table is indented about 7cm from the > left. I tried selecting the whole thing, going into Layout>Paragraph, > and chosing "Left" alignment, and even "No indent", and none of this > cured the problem (the table is still indented too much). BTW, a > second table just below the first one was aligned differently by > default (a little less, but still too much), and I couldn't find a way > to make them line up on a page. Then at one point they aligned at the > same distance on the left, but aligning them on the right took > deliverate experimenting with column sizes, to produce the same total > lenths. > I don't know what problem you have here, but aligning tables on the left and on the right is possible without problems with the Layout->Paragraph menu! (at least here I don't see ANY problem with that) > Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a > table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) But > the whole point is that such alignments should happen automagically in > WYSIWYM approach, and I hate to spoil the experience by having to > specify hard sizes of the table. :^( > As alredy told you, NO they aren't of the same size and it seems very logically to me! (just look at the additional vertical lines you have!) > It would be nice to be able select the whole table and give it > Centered, Left, Right etc alignments. > What do you mean, the single table cells or the whole table? Both is possible, the first with the Table-Layout menu selecting all cells in the table and the second with layout->paragraph! > 4. I would like to be able chose horizontal and vertical alignment of > text within a cell. Right now I was not able to achive centered > vertical alignment of a word in a long cell (it aligned at the very > top by default). Maybe I just don't know how to do it? ;^) > You're right with this vertical alignment is not possible yet! If someone explains me how to do this in raw LaTeX I could add some support, but only in the upcoming 1.2 version! > 5. If I hit C-Return in a cell, it creates whitespace in the LyX view, > which is impossible to get rid of (it doesn't appear in the output, > alright, but it is frustrating and messes up relative vertical > alignment of text in the columns of the same raw. > No problem with that too. If you acidentally hit C-Return and don't want that empty line, just delete it using the table-layout-menu ;) > > But generally speaking, it took me forever, and the two tables still > don't look the way I would like them to. :( If it would be helpful, I > could email you or post the file with them (there's nothing else in > the file). It might visualize what I'm talking about. > Just send it to me with some explanations and I'll have a look :) > > I hope you take my post as an attempt to be useful, not as a > whine. ;^) Sure not, but as you see above there's really not much I can do to make it better as most of the stuff you said IS working (at least I hope it does ;) Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal. -- Zaphod Beeblebrox -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Re: Tables stuff
On 08-Sep-99 Michael Hanke wrote:
>>
>> You're right with this vertical alignment is not possible yet! If someone
>> explains me how to do this in raw LaTeX I could add some support, but only
>> in the upcoming 1.2 version!
> Maybe, I can help here: the array package as explained in the latex
> companion sect 5.3 can be a solution.
Ok (I've all the documentation, but sometimes I'm a bit lazy to look
into it ;). The vertical alignment can be realized also with the actual
lyx version. Go into the Extra-Options and insert for the column (or
the cell if it is a multicolumn-cell) the option m{n} f.ex. m{10cm}
and now this cell has a verticall middle alignment.
Greets Jürgen
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260
I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042
ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug
Ask not for whom the telephone bell tolls...
if thou art in the bathtub, it tolls for thee.
-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I heard other comments too, but probably that is really subjective :) I figured out I have to specify the table width in cm, but for some You don't have to use cm you could use any length (in, pt, mm, ...) reason it's indented from the left about 7cm, and I can only make it 10cm to fit into the page... How do I get rid of the indentation? Is your paragraph centered? Try to left-align the paragraph and you'll see that it magically will start on the left side ;) Further more, I tried to specify "Rotate 90 degrees" in "Spec. Table" of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? Sure you should install rotating.sty in your LaTeX distribution (really strange it isn't there what distribution are you using?) Have a look at you Help Files - LaTeX Configuration and you'll find a place where to find it (but I've just seen that you got another mail where you get a pointer to this ;) It seems like I need to use "Linebreaks" option in order to have multiple lines in a cell. However, in some cells this option is greyed No you don't have to set Linebreaks to get multiple lines, "Linebreaks" just forces you linebreaks and puts them as you entered them in the table cell (\parbox and \\), if you don't use linebreaks then depending on the width of the cell the text is wrapped automatically (width 0 is endless and so you'll get all in one line!) out. It seems it is dependant on borders around that cell or smth else... Also, I am unable to orient text in a cell vertically, and get the same error message as above. It depends on the width of the cell as explained above! The other is again rotating.sty! (You can preview this only in Postscript!) I read through User's guide section on tables, but didn't find any help there. ;( Am I trying to acomplish too much at the current stage of LyX's development? And I thought I did explain all of it, maybe I really forgot something :) Anyway I hope I could help you in some way #:O) Greets Jürgen BTW: I found this in the tabular Help Documentatin (User Guide): One last remark: Longtable and Rotate 90° use special LaTeX packages, so you should look into LaTeX configuration in the Help menu to see if your system supports these features! -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug Ain't nothin' an old man can do for me but bring me a message from a young man. -- Moms Mabley -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Juergen Vigna wrote: On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I heard other comments too, but probably that is really subjective :) Hm, I am currently trying to convince my girlfriend to use lyx. Everything is quite fine for her, except the tables. She, too, moans a lot about the way tables are done in lyx. I have got the feeling that one of the biggest problems is the missing interaction when creating a table. I know, lyx is not wysiwyg, but concerning tables it would help much if the final layout could be controlled more interactively. I don´t want to say that Winword does a good job, however it´s way to handle tables seems to be easier to understand for the user than the lyx approach. Mabye a matter to be considered in future? oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Oliver Eichler wrote: Hm, I am currently trying to convince my girlfriend to use lyx. Everything is quite fine for her, except the tables. She, too, moans a lot about the way tables are done in lyx. I have got the feeling that one of the biggest problems is the missing interaction when creating a table. I know, lyx is not wysiwyg, but concerning tables it would help much if the final layout could be controlled more interactively. I don´t want to say that Winword does a good job, however it´s way to handle tables seems to be easier to understand for the user than the lyx approach. Mabye a matter to be considered in future? Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug The control of the production of wealth is the control of human life itself. -- Hilaire Belloc -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff plus more
Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. You are right :), I am sorry. The trouble began, when she noticed that latex will produce endless lines over the page borders if no cell width is defined. Thus she defined the width for each cell. Cross checking with the postscript preview she noticed that with here width definitions the lines of some cells where brocken quite badly. Not that latex did anthing wrong, no. Finetuning the table was just necessary. Nothing bad about that, however the document was about 40 pages with a lot of bitmaps included as postscript :). Considering the fact that it was midnight and the report had to be done by the morning, the finetuning simply drove her nuts. It would have helped her to have a better preview within lyx. Also it would be great to adjust the cell width by moving the lines between the cells. I don´t think it is necessary to see how the lines are broken exactly, as in most cases one just want to know if the cell is big enought for everything fitting in a single line. And I doubt a real wysiwyg is possible with latex in this case :) What about a table with mouse moveable lines as mentioned above plus a cell measurement around the table with an extra color? While moving the lines I can interactively see how the width is changing. Also it would be nice if lyx is limiting my table to a maximum of the printable area, taking the papersize and border sizes into account. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I wanted to say? By the way: There was another thing driving my girl friend nuts this evening ;). She used a lot of enumerations nested in itemizations. Together with her extense use of pictures latex did a real poor job in formating the text by leaving single items as orphans and widows. Surely, it is quite hard for tex to "smell" what text is in a logical context and should be kept together on a page. Thus we tried to help tex by defining minipages for the enumerations to keep together. This works - but I don´t know if this is the correct way to do it. However doing it in lyx was quite a pain as you have to click thru the paragraph options. Wouldn´t it be better to select a certain amount of text and to have a toggle button or shortcut to combine it on a minipage by a single click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. Going thru all this trouble I thought it is quite hard for convincing her at all. However Microsoft was so kind to update her as "User2000" (yuck). After installing loads of software she tried the new Office the "lyx way" and guess what: I heard a lot of grumbling about this damn Winword. Thus I guess the case isn´t yet decided and lyx still has a good chance :) oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff plus more
On 07-Sep-99 Oliver Eichler wrote: Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. You are right :), I am sorry. #:O) single line. And I doubt a real wysiwyg is possible with latex in this case :) What about a table with mouse moveable lines as mentioned above plus a cell measurement around the table with an extra color? While moving the lines I can interactively see how the width is changing. Also it would be nice if lyx is limiting my table to a maximum of the printable area, taking the papersize and border sizes into account. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I wanted to say? Yes it gives me a better idea and I'm sorry to have to tell you that this isn't possible to change :( LyX is as you said WYSIWYMG and this is one of the examples where you cannot get nearer to the WYSIWYG picture as it is now. What I'd like to change in tabulars is: - allow more special LaTeX packages to work easier - allow cell selection by row and column - have the fixed-width of the cell displayed better and allow a automatic wordwrap inside a table-cell if this is a multiline-cell. click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. I don't really understand what you did or what you wanted to do :), but using minipages seems to me a bit wrong as minipages cannot span on multiple pages. Could you give a small example? I think you just don't know how to use the "Depth" button ;) Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug The only reward of virtue is virtue. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Minipages (was: Tables stuff plus more)
click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. I don't really understand what you did or what you wanted to do :), but using minipages seems to me a bit wrong as minipages cannot span on multiple pages. Could you give a small example? I think you just don't know how to use the "Depth" button ;) You got me wrong: Latex produced something like this ... * item 1 * item 2 * item 3 1. you need this ---latex generated page break-- 2. and this 3. and this * item 4 ... However for the document´s logical sake it would be better to do something like: ... * item 1 * item 2 ---latex generated page break-- * item 3 1. you need this 2. and this 3. and this * item 4 ... Sure I could manually insert a page break, but this would completely disturbe the auto-formating and produce "Windows quality". Thus I used a minipage for the enumeration, forcing latex to keep it together on a page and to do the page break infront of it or after it. (I didn´t manage to include item 3, too. Latex produced errors). Is this the right way to solve the problem? Generally it would be fine to select the lines item 3, 1., 2. and 3. and toggle a button (short cut!) to make them stick together and telling latex whereever it wants to do a page break to do it above or below these "sticky lines" but not in between them. oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff
Yes it gives me a better idea and I'm sorry to have to tell you that this isn't possible to change :( LyX is as you said WYSIWYMG and this is one of the examples where you cannot get nearer to the WYSIWYG picture as it is now. What I'd like to change in tabulars is: - allow more special LaTeX packages to work easier - allow cell selection by row and column yes. - have the fixed-width of the cell displayed better and allow a automatic wordwrap inside a table-cell if this is a multiline-cell. What about having it displayed like a tooltip while moving lines, taken the case you would implement it the way I suggested. The only drawback I could see is that the interactive graphical editing of the column width would make people believe much more that the line breakes by lyx are wysiwyg, which they aren´t. (you could open a message box telling the user that it is not. But make it with a check box "never want to see this again") oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
Re: Tables stuff
Juergen Vigna [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. Ok, *my* frustration with tables: 1. Table size. It would be very nice if the table would default to the size delimetered by page's margins. 2. Many glitches. For example, right clicking on a cell and selecting Width sometimes didn't have any effect. I had to specify "10cm" several times (clicking "Close", then right-clicking on the cell again showed nothing in the "Width" field, until after several repetitions). Also, in some cells I cannot turn on Linebreaks for no apparent reason (grayed out). 3. Table alignment. My first table is indented about 7cm from the left. I tried selecting the whole thing, going into LayoutParagraph, and chosing "Left" alignment, and even "No indent", and none of this cured the problem (the table is still indented too much). BTW, a second table just below the first one was aligned differently by default (a little less, but still too much), and I couldn't find a way to make them line up on a page. Then at one point they aligned at the same distance on the left, but aligning them on the right took deliverate experimenting with column sizes, to produce the same total lenths. Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) But the whole point is that such alignments should happen automagically in WYSIWYM approach, and I hate to spoil the experience by having to specify hard sizes of the table. :^( It would be nice to be able select the whole table and give it Centered, Left, Right etc alignments. 4. I would like to be able chose horizontal and vertical alignment of text within a cell. Right now I was not able to achive centered vertical alignment of a word in a long cell (it aligned at the very top by default). Maybe I just don't know how to do it? ;^) 5. If I hit C-Return in a cell, it creates whitespace in the LyX view, which is impossible to get rid of (it doesn't appear in the output, alright, but it is frustrating and messes up relative vertical alignment of text in the columns of the same raw. == But generally speaking, it took me forever, and the two tables still don't look the way I would like them to. :( If it would be helpful, I could email you or post the file with them (there's nothing else in the file). It might visualize what I'm talking about. I have to comment that so far I have had a *great* experience with LyX with formatting regular text, headers, bibliographies, footnotes, tables of contents etc. I'm hooked on it now -- that's why it's even more painful that I am not able to achieve smth with my new favorite program. I hope you take my post as an attempt to be useful, not as a whine. ;^) -- Arcady Genkin "It seems as though I had not drunk from the cup of wisdom, but had fallen into it." (S. Kierkegaard)
Re: Minipages (was: Tables stuff plus more)
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Oliver Eichler wrote: Sure I could manually insert a page break, but this would completely disturbe the auto-formating and produce "Windows quality". Why that? Do you used the book-class, where you want to have all last lines on the same position? I think, that latex will insert additionally vertical space for that reason. Generally: I am using latex for more than ten years and for me the table-handling of lyx is a _very_ strong argument for using it. ;-) Ciao! juh -- juh's Sudelbuch Literatur und Satire per E-Mail http://www.sudelbuch.de
Re: Tables stuff
Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) No. In the first case the width of your table is 10 cm + \tabcolsep, in the latter 10cm + 9 \tabcolsep. This is standard LaTeX behaviour. Andre' -- Andre' Poenitz, TU Chemnitz, Fakultaet fuer Mathematik [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... +49 3727 58 1381
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I heard other comments too, but probably that is really subjective :) I figured out I have to specify the table width in cm, but for some You don't have to use cm you could use any length (in, pt, mm, ...) reason it's indented from the left about 7cm, and I can only make it 10cm to fit into the page... How do I get rid of the indentation? Is your paragraph centered? Try to left-align the paragraph and you'll see that it magically will start on the left side ;) Further more, I tried to specify "Rotate 90 degrees" in "Spec. Table" of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? Sure you should install rotating.sty in your LaTeX distribution (really strange it isn't there what distribution are you using?) Have a look at you Help Files - LaTeX Configuration and you'll find a place where to find it (but I've just seen that you got another mail where you get a pointer to this ;) It seems like I need to use "Linebreaks" option in order to have multiple lines in a cell. However, in some cells this option is greyed No you don't have to set Linebreaks to get multiple lines, "Linebreaks" just forces you linebreaks and puts them as you entered them in the table cell (\parbox and \\), if you don't use linebreaks then depending on the width of the cell the text is wrapped automatically (width 0 is endless and so you'll get all in one line!) out. It seems it is dependant on borders around that cell or smth else... Also, I am unable to orient text in a cell vertically, and get the same error message as above. It depends on the width of the cell as explained above! The other is again rotating.sty! (You can preview this only in Postscript!) I read through User's guide section on tables, but didn't find any help there. ;( Am I trying to acomplish too much at the current stage of LyX's development? And I thought I did explain all of it, maybe I really forgot something :) Anyway I hope I could help you in some way #:O) Greets Jürgen BTW: I found this in the tabular Help Documentatin (User Guide): One last remark: Longtable and Rotate 90° use special LaTeX packages, so you should look into LaTeX configuration in the Help menu to see if your system supports these features! -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug Ain't nothin' an old man can do for me but bring me a message from a young man. -- Moms Mabley -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Juergen Vigna wrote: On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I heard other comments too, but probably that is really subjective :) Hm, I am currently trying to convince my girlfriend to use lyx. Everything is quite fine for her, except the tables. She, too, moans a lot about the way tables are done in lyx. I have got the feeling that one of the biggest problems is the missing interaction when creating a table. I know, lyx is not wysiwyg, but concerning tables it would help much if the final layout could be controlled more interactively. I don´t want to say that Winword does a good job, however it´s way to handle tables seems to be easier to understand for the user than the lyx approach. Mabye a matter to be considered in future? oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Oliver Eichler wrote: Hm, I am currently trying to convince my girlfriend to use lyx. Everything is quite fine for her, except the tables. She, too, moans a lot about the way tables are done in lyx. I have got the feeling that one of the biggest problems is the missing interaction when creating a table. I know, lyx is not wysiwyg, but concerning tables it would help much if the final layout could be controlled more interactively. I don´t want to say that Winword does a good job, however it´s way to handle tables seems to be easier to understand for the user than the lyx approach. Mabye a matter to be considered in future? Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug The control of the production of wealth is the control of human life itself. -- Hilaire Belloc -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff plus more
Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. You are right :), I am sorry. The trouble began, when she noticed that latex will produce endless lines over the page borders if no cell width is defined. Thus she defined the width for each cell. Cross checking with the postscript preview she noticed that with here width definitions the lines of some cells where brocken quite badly. Not that latex did anthing wrong, no. Finetuning the table was just necessary. Nothing bad about that, however the document was about 40 pages with a lot of bitmaps included as postscript :). Considering the fact that it was midnight and the report had to be done by the morning, the finetuning simply drove her nuts. It would have helped her to have a better preview within lyx. Also it would be great to adjust the cell width by moving the lines between the cells. I don´t think it is necessary to see how the lines are broken exactly, as in most cases one just want to know if the cell is big enought for everything fitting in a single line. And I doubt a real wysiwyg is possible with latex in this case :) What about a table with mouse moveable lines as mentioned above plus a cell measurement around the table with an extra color? While moving the lines I can interactively see how the width is changing. Also it would be nice if lyx is limiting my table to a maximum of the printable area, taking the papersize and border sizes into account. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I wanted to say? By the way: There was another thing driving my girl friend nuts this evening ;). She used a lot of enumerations nested in itemizations. Together with her extense use of pictures latex did a real poor job in formating the text by leaving single items as orphans and widows. Surely, it is quite hard for tex to "smell" what text is in a logical context and should be kept together on a page. Thus we tried to help tex by defining minipages for the enumerations to keep together. This works - but I don´t know if this is the correct way to do it. However doing it in lyx was quite a pain as you have to click thru the paragraph options. Wouldn´t it be better to select a certain amount of text and to have a toggle button or shortcut to combine it on a minipage by a single click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. Going thru all this trouble I thought it is quite hard for convincing her at all. However Microsoft was so kind to update her as "User2000" (yuck). After installing loads of software she tried the new Office the "lyx way" and guess what: I heard a lot of grumbling about this damn Winword. Thus I guess the case isn´t yet decided and lyx still has a good chance :) oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff plus more
On 07-Sep-99 Oliver Eichler wrote: Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. You are right :), I am sorry. #:O) single line. And I doubt a real wysiwyg is possible with latex in this case :) What about a table with mouse moveable lines as mentioned above plus a cell measurement around the table with an extra color? While moving the lines I can interactively see how the width is changing. Also it would be nice if lyx is limiting my table to a maximum of the printable area, taking the papersize and border sizes into account. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I wanted to say? Yes it gives me a better idea and I'm sorry to have to tell you that this isn't possible to change :( LyX is as you said WYSIWYMG and this is one of the examples where you cannot get nearer to the WYSIWYG picture as it is now. What I'd like to change in tabulars is: - allow more special LaTeX packages to work easier - allow cell selection by row and column - have the fixed-width of the cell displayed better and allow a automatic wordwrap inside a table-cell if this is a multiline-cell. click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. I don't really understand what you did or what you wanted to do :), but using minipages seems to me a bit wrong as minipages cannot span on multiple pages. Could you give a small example? I think you just don't know how to use the "Depth" button ;) Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug The only reward of virtue is virtue. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Minipages (was: Tables stuff plus more)
click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. I don't really understand what you did or what you wanted to do :), but using minipages seems to me a bit wrong as minipages cannot span on multiple pages. Could you give a small example? I think you just don't know how to use the "Depth" button ;) You got me wrong: Latex produced something like this ... * item 1 * item 2 * item 3 1. you need this ---latex generated page break-- 2. and this 3. and this * item 4 ... However for the document´s logical sake it would be better to do something like: ... * item 1 * item 2 ---latex generated page break-- * item 3 1. you need this 2. and this 3. and this * item 4 ... Sure I could manually insert a page break, but this would completely disturbe the auto-formating and produce "Windows quality". Thus I used a minipage for the enumeration, forcing latex to keep it together on a page and to do the page break infront of it or after it. (I didn´t manage to include item 3, too. Latex produced errors). Is this the right way to solve the problem? Generally it would be fine to select the lines item 3, 1., 2. and 3. and toggle a button (short cut!) to make them stick together and telling latex whereever it wants to do a page break to do it above or below these "sticky lines" but not in between them. oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff
Yes it gives me a better idea and I'm sorry to have to tell you that this isn't possible to change :( LyX is as you said WYSIWYMG and this is one of the examples where you cannot get nearer to the WYSIWYG picture as it is now. What I'd like to change in tabulars is: - allow more special LaTeX packages to work easier - allow cell selection by row and column yes. - have the fixed-width of the cell displayed better and allow a automatic wordwrap inside a table-cell if this is a multiline-cell. What about having it displayed like a tooltip while moving lines, taken the case you would implement it the way I suggested. The only drawback I could see is that the interactive graphical editing of the column width would make people believe much more that the line breakes by lyx are wysiwyg, which they aren´t. (you could open a message box telling the user that it is not. But make it with a check box "never want to see this again") oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
Re: Tables stuff
Juergen Vigna [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. Ok, *my* frustration with tables: 1. Table size. It would be very nice if the table would default to the size delimetered by page's margins. 2. Many glitches. For example, right clicking on a cell and selecting Width sometimes didn't have any effect. I had to specify "10cm" several times (clicking "Close", then right-clicking on the cell again showed nothing in the "Width" field, until after several repetitions). Also, in some cells I cannot turn on Linebreaks for no apparent reason (grayed out). 3. Table alignment. My first table is indented about 7cm from the left. I tried selecting the whole thing, going into LayoutParagraph, and chosing "Left" alignment, and even "No indent", and none of this cured the problem (the table is still indented too much). BTW, a second table just below the first one was aligned differently by default (a little less, but still too much), and I couldn't find a way to make them line up on a page. Then at one point they aligned at the same distance on the left, but aligning them on the right took deliverate experimenting with column sizes, to produce the same total lenths. Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) But the whole point is that such alignments should happen automagically in WYSIWYM approach, and I hate to spoil the experience by having to specify hard sizes of the table. :^( It would be nice to be able select the whole table and give it Centered, Left, Right etc alignments. 4. I would like to be able chose horizontal and vertical alignment of text within a cell. Right now I was not able to achive centered vertical alignment of a word in a long cell (it aligned at the very top by default). Maybe I just don't know how to do it? ;^) 5. If I hit C-Return in a cell, it creates whitespace in the LyX view, which is impossible to get rid of (it doesn't appear in the output, alright, but it is frustrating and messes up relative vertical alignment of text in the columns of the same raw. == But generally speaking, it took me forever, and the two tables still don't look the way I would like them to. :( If it would be helpful, I could email you or post the file with them (there's nothing else in the file). It might visualize what I'm talking about. I have to comment that so far I have had a *great* experience with LyX with formatting regular text, headers, bibliographies, footnotes, tables of contents etc. I'm hooked on it now -- that's why it's even more painful that I am not able to achieve smth with my new favorite program. I hope you take my post as an attempt to be useful, not as a whine. ;^) -- Arcady Genkin "It seems as though I had not drunk from the cup of wisdom, but had fallen into it." (S. Kierkegaard)
Re: Minipages (was: Tables stuff plus more)
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Oliver Eichler wrote: Sure I could manually insert a page break, but this would completely disturbe the auto-formating and produce "Windows quality". Why that? Do you used the book-class, where you want to have all last lines on the same position? I think, that latex will insert additionally vertical space for that reason. Generally: I am using latex for more than ten years and for me the table-handling of lyx is a _very_ strong argument for using it. ;-) Ciao! juh -- juh's Sudelbuch Literatur und Satire per E-Mail http://www.sudelbuch.de
Re: Tables stuff
Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) No. In the first case the width of your table is 10 cm + \tabcolsep, in the latter 10cm + 9 \tabcolsep. This is standard LaTeX behaviour. Andre' -- Andre' Poenitz, TU Chemnitz, Fakultaet fuer Mathematik [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... +49 3727 58 1381
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: > > I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a > shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. > I heard other comments too, but probably that is really subjective :) > > I figured out I have to specify the table width in cm, but for some You don't have to use cm you could use any length (in, pt, mm, ...) > reason it's indented from the left about 7cm, and I can only make it > 10cm to fit into the page... How do I get rid of the indentation? Is your paragraph centered? Try to left-align the paragraph and you'll see that it magically will start on the left side ;) > Further more, I tried to specify "Rotate 90 degrees" in "Spec. Table" > of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: > File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: > sty)". Any ideas? > Sure you should install rotating.sty in your LaTeX distribution (really strange it isn't there what distribution are you using?) Have a look at you Help Files -> LaTeX Configuration and you'll find a place where to find it (but I've just seen that you got another mail where you get a pointer to this ;) > It seems like I need to use "Linebreaks" option in order to have > multiple lines in a cell. However, in some cells this option is greyed No you don't have to set Linebreaks to get multiple lines, "Linebreaks" just forces you linebreaks and puts them as you entered them in the table cell (\parbox and \\), if you don't use linebreaks then depending on the width of the cell the text is wrapped automatically (width 0 is endless and so you'll get all in one line!) > out. It seems it is dependant on borders around that cell or smth > else... Also, I am unable to orient text in a cell vertically, and get > the same error message as above. > It depends on the width of the cell as explained above! The other is again rotating.sty! (You can preview this only in Postscript!) > I read through User's guide section on tables, but didn't find any > help there. ;( Am I trying to acomplish too much at the current stage > of LyX's development? > And I thought I did explain all of it, maybe I really forgot something :) Anyway I hope I could help you in some way #:O) Greets Jürgen BTW: I found this in the tabular Help Documentatin (User Guide): One last remark: Longtable and Rotate 90° use special LaTeX packages, so you should look into LaTeX configuration in the Help menu to see if your system supports these features! -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug Ain't nothin' an old man can do for me but bring me a message from a young man. -- Moms Mabley -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Juergen Vigna wrote: > > On 07-Sep-99 Arcady Genkin wrote: >> >> I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a >> shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. >> > > I heard other comments too, but probably that is really subjective :) > Hm, I am currently trying to convince my girlfriend to use lyx. Everything is quite fine for her, except the tables. She, too, moans a lot about the way tables are done in lyx. I have got the feeling that one of the biggest problems is the missing interaction when creating a table. I know, lyx is not wysiwyg, but concerning tables it would help much if the final layout could be controlled more interactively. I don´t want to say that Winword does a good job, however it´s way to handle tables seems to be easier to understand for the user than the lyx approach. Mabye a matter to be considered in future? oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff
On 07-Sep-99 Oliver Eichler wrote: > > Hm, I am currently trying to convince my girlfriend to use lyx. Everything is > quite fine for her, except the tables. She, too, moans a lot about the way > tables are done in lyx. I have got the feeling that one of the biggest problems > is the missing interaction when creating a table. I know, lyx is not wysiwyg, > but concerning tables it would help much if the final layout could be > controlled more interactively. I don´t want to say that Winword does a good job, > however it´s way to handle tables seems to be easier to understand for the user > than the lyx approach. Mabye a matter to be considered in future? > Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done is not very helpfull. Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug The control of the production of wealth is the control of human life itself. -- Hilaire Belloc -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
RE: Tables stuff plus more
>> > > Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't > like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done > is not very helpfull. > You are right :), I am sorry. The trouble began, when she noticed that latex will produce endless lines over the page borders if no cell width is defined. Thus she defined the width for each cell. Cross checking with the postscript preview she noticed that with here width definitions the lines of some cells where brocken quite badly. Not that latex did anthing wrong, no. Finetuning the table was just necessary. Nothing bad about that, however the document was about 40 pages with a lot of bitmaps included as postscript :). Considering the fact that it was midnight and the report had to be done by the morning, the finetuning simply drove her nuts. It would have helped her to have a better preview within lyx. Also it would be great to adjust the cell width by moving the lines between the cells. I don´t think it is necessary to see how the lines are broken exactly, as in most cases one just want to know if the cell is big enought for everything fitting in a single line. And I doubt a real wysiwyg is possible with latex in this case :) What about a table with mouse moveable lines as mentioned above plus a cell measurement around the table with an extra color? While moving the lines I can interactively see how the width is changing. Also it would be nice if lyx is limiting my table to a maximum of the printable area, taking the papersize and border sizes into account. I hope this gives you a better idea of what I wanted to say? By the way: There was another thing driving my girl friend nuts this evening ;). She used a lot of enumerations nested in itemizations. Together with her extense use of pictures latex did a real poor job in formating the text by leaving single items as orphans and widows. Surely, it is quite hard for tex to "smell" what text is in a logical context and should be kept together on a page. Thus we tried to help tex by defining minipages for the enumerations to keep together. This works - but I don´t know if this is the correct way to do it. However doing it in lyx was quite a pain as you have to click thru the paragraph options. Wouldn´t it be better to select a certain amount of text and to have a toggle button or shortcut to combine it on a minipage by a single click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two pages and more. Going thru all this trouble I thought it is quite hard for convincing her at all. However Microsoft was so kind to update her as "User2000" (yuck). After installing loads of software she tried the new Office the "lyx way" and guess what: I heard a lot of grumbling about this damn Winword. Thus I guess the case isn´t yet decided and lyx still has a good chance :) oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff plus more
On 07-Sep-99 Oliver Eichler wrote: >>> >> >> Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't >> like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done >> is not very helpfull. >> > > You are right :), I am sorry. > #:O) > single line. And I doubt a real wysiwyg is possible with latex in this case :) > > What about a table with mouse moveable lines as mentioned above plus a cell > measurement around the table with an extra color? While moving the lines I > can interactively see how the width is changing. Also it would be nice if lyx > is limiting my table to a maximum of the printable area, taking the papersize > and border sizes into account. > > I hope this gives you a better idea of what I wanted to say? > Yes it gives me a better idea and I'm sorry to have to tell you that this isn't possible to change :( LyX is as you said WYSIWYMG and this is one of the examples where you cannot get nearer to the WYSIWYG picture as it is now. What I'd like to change in tabulars is: - allow more special LaTeX packages to work easier - allow cell selection by row and column - have the fixed-width of the cell displayed better and allow a automatic wordwrap inside a table-cell if this is a multiline-cell. > click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently selected > amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two > pages and more. > I don't really understand what you did or what you wanted to do :), but using minipages seems to me a bit wrong as minipages cannot span on multiple pages. Could you give a small example? I think you just don't know how to use the "Depth" button ;) Greets Jürgen -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._ Dr. Jürgen Vigna E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gerbergasse 60Tel:+39-0471-450260 I-39100 Bozen Fax:+39-0471-970042 ITALY Web:http://www.sad.it/~jug The only reward of virtue is virtue. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._-._
Minipages (was: Tables stuff plus more)
>> click? Plus having a crosscheck if it makes sense with the currently >> selected >> amount of text to do so, for all the cases the selected text would span two >> pages and more. >> > > I don't really understand what you did or what you wanted to do :), but > using minipages seems to me a bit wrong as minipages cannot span on multiple > pages. Could you give a small example? I think you just don't know how to > use the "Depth" button ;) You got me wrong: Latex produced something like this ... * item 1 * item 2 * item 3 1. you need this ---latex generated page break-- 2. and this 3. and this * item 4 ... However for the document´s logical sake it would be better to do something like: ... * item 1 * item 2 ---latex generated page break-- * item 3 1. you need this 2. and this 3. and this * item 4 ... Sure I could manually insert a page break, but this would completely disturbe the auto-formating and produce "Windows quality". Thus I used a minipage for the enumeration, forcing latex to keep it together on a page and to do the page break infront of it or after it. (I didn´t manage to include item 3, too. Latex produced errors). Is this the right way to solve the problem? Generally it would be fine to select the lines item 3, 1., 2. and 3. and toggle a button (short cut!) to make them stick together and telling latex whereever it wants to do a page break to do it above or below these "sticky lines" but not in between them. oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
RE: Tables stuff
> > Yes it gives me a better idea and I'm sorry to have to tell you that this > isn't possible to change :( LyX is as you said WYSIWYMG and this is one > of the examples where you cannot get nearer to the WYSIWYG picture as it > is now. > > What I'd like to change in tabulars is: > > - allow more special LaTeX packages to work easier > - allow cell selection by row and column yes. > - have the fixed-width of the cell displayed better and allow a automatic > wordwrap inside a table-cell if this is a multiline-cell. What about having it displayed like a tooltip while moving lines, taken the case you would implement it the way I suggested. The only drawback I could see is that the interactive graphical editing of the column width would make people believe much more that the line breakes by lyx are wysiwyg, which they aren´t. (you could open a message box telling the user that it is not. But make it with a check box "never want to see this again") oliver --- Oliver Eichler, Dipl.-Ing. DSP Solutions Ingenieure Kellermann, Voigt, Hoepfl, Eichler und Weidner Partnerschaft
Re: Tables stuff
Juergen Vigna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Maybe, it depends if you can give me a real cause ;). Just telling I don't > like it and not saying what you don't like or how you would like things done > is not very helpfull. Ok, *my* frustration with tables: 1. Table size. It would be very nice if the table would default to the size delimetered by page's margins. 2. Many glitches. For example, right clicking on a cell and selecting Width sometimes didn't have any effect. I had to specify "10cm" several times (clicking "Close", then right-clicking on the cell again showed nothing in the "Width" field, until after several repetitions). Also, in some cells I cannot turn on Linebreaks for no apparent reason (grayed out). 3. Table alignment. My first table is indented about 7cm from the left. I tried selecting the whole thing, going into Layout>Paragraph, and chosing "Left" alignment, and even "No indent", and none of this cured the problem (the table is still indented too much). BTW, a second table just below the first one was aligned differently by default (a little less, but still too much), and I couldn't find a way to make them line up on a page. Then at one point they aligned at the same distance on the left, but aligning them on the right took deliverate experimenting with column sizes, to produce the same total lenths. Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) But the whole point is that such alignments should happen automagically in WYSIWYM approach, and I hate to spoil the experience by having to specify hard sizes of the table. :^( It would be nice to be able select the whole table and give it Centered, Left, Right etc alignments. 4. I would like to be able chose horizontal and vertical alignment of text within a cell. Right now I was not able to achive centered vertical alignment of a word in a long cell (it aligned at the very top by default). Maybe I just don't know how to do it? ;^) 5. If I hit C-Return in a cell, it creates whitespace in the LyX view, which is impossible to get rid of (it doesn't appear in the output, alright, but it is frustrating and messes up relative vertical alignment of text in the columns of the same raw. == But generally speaking, it took me forever, and the two tables still don't look the way I would like them to. :( If it would be helpful, I could email you or post the file with them (there's nothing else in the file). It might visualize what I'm talking about. I have to comment that so far I have had a *great* experience with LyX with formatting regular text, headers, bibliographies, footnotes, tables of contents etc. I'm hooked on it now -- that's why it's even more painful that I am not able to achieve smth with my new favorite program. I hope you take my post as an attempt to be useful, not as a whine. ;^) -- Arcady Genkin "It seems as though I had not drunk from the cup of wisdom, but had fallen into it." (S. Kierkegaard)
Re: Minipages (was: Tables stuff plus more)
On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Oliver Eichler wrote: >Sure I could manually insert a page break, but this would >completely disturbe the auto-formating and produce "Windows >quality". Why that? Do you used the book-class, where you want to have all last lines on the same position? I think, that latex will insert additionally vertical space for that reason. Generally: I am using latex for more than ten years and for me the table-handling of lyx is a _very_ strong argument for using it. ;-) Ciao! juh -- juh's Sudelbuch Literatur und Satire per E-Mail http://www.sudelbuch.de
Re: Tables stuff
> Note, that I have a table wih 2 columns 3cm and 7cm, and below it a > table with 10 columns 1cm each. Shouldn't they match in size? ;^) No. In the first case the width of your table is 10 cm + \tabcolsep, in the latter 10cm + 9 \tabcolsep. This is standard LaTeX behaviour. Andre' -- Andre' Poenitz, TU Chemnitz, Fakultaet fuer Mathematik [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... +49 3727 58 1381
Tables stuff
Hi all: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I wanted to create a note about a couple of textbooks that I want to sell at school; the usual stuff: 2x2 table on top with course number in the first column, and book description in the second. Directly below it -- 1x6 table with my phone numbers to be torn off. I figured out I have to specify the table width in cm, but for some reason it's indented from the left about 7cm, and I can only make it 10cm to fit into the page... How do I get rid of the indentation? Further more, I tried to specify "Rotate 90 degrees" in "Spec. Table" of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? It seems like I need to use "Linebreaks" option in order to have multiple lines in a cell. However, in some cells this option is greyed out. It seems it is dependant on borders around that cell or smth else... Also, I am unable to orient text in a cell vertically, and get the same error message as above. I read through User's guide section on tables, but didn't find any help there. ;( Am I trying to acomplish too much at the current stage of LyX's development? FWIW, I'm using 1.03 compiled from sources on a Debian 2.1 system. -- Arcady Genkin "It seems as though I had not drunk from the cup of wisdom, but had fallen into it." (S. Kierkegaard)
Re: Tables stuff
of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? Yes ;-) LaTeX did not found rotating.sty. It usually comes with your LaTeX distribution, in my case (SuSE 6.0) it is /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/misc/rotating.sty Anyway, you could get it from your nearest CTAN mirror, e.g. from http://www.dante.de/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/supported/rotating/ Regards, Andre' PS: To the devvies: How about a second LyX distribution including everything possibly needed, at least the supported .sty files? -- Andre' Poenitz, TU Chemnitz, Fakultaet fuer Mathematik [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... +49 3727 58 1381
Tables stuff
Hi all: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I wanted to create a note about a couple of textbooks that I want to sell at school; the usual stuff: 2x2 table on top with course number in the first column, and book description in the second. Directly below it -- 1x6 table with my phone numbers to be torn off. I figured out I have to specify the table width in cm, but for some reason it's indented from the left about 7cm, and I can only make it 10cm to fit into the page... How do I get rid of the indentation? Further more, I tried to specify "Rotate 90 degrees" in "Spec. Table" of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? It seems like I need to use "Linebreaks" option in order to have multiple lines in a cell. However, in some cells this option is greyed out. It seems it is dependant on borders around that cell or smth else... Also, I am unable to orient text in a cell vertically, and get the same error message as above. I read through User's guide section on tables, but didn't find any help there. ;( Am I trying to acomplish too much at the current stage of LyX's development? FWIW, I'm using 1.03 compiled from sources on a Debian 2.1 system. -- Arcady Genkin "It seems as though I had not drunk from the cup of wisdom, but had fallen into it." (S. Kierkegaard)
Re: Tables stuff
of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? Yes ;-) LaTeX did not found rotating.sty. It usually comes with your LaTeX distribution, in my case (SuSE 6.0) it is /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/misc/rotating.sty Anyway, you could get it from your nearest CTAN mirror, e.g. from http://www.dante.de/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/supported/rotating/ Regards, Andre' PS: To the devvies: How about a second LyX distribution including everything possibly needed, at least the supported .sty files? -- Andre' Poenitz, TU Chemnitz, Fakultaet fuer Mathematik [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... +49 3727 58 1381
Tables stuff
Hi all: I find that creating tables is quite an awkward process in LyX. What a shame -- the program handles everything else so gracefully. I wanted to create a note about a couple of textbooks that I want to sell at school; the usual stuff: 2x2 table on top with course number in the first column, and book description in the second. Directly below it -- 1x6 table with my phone numbers to be torn off. I figured out I have to specify the table width in cm, but for some reason it's indented from the left about 7cm, and I can only make it 10cm to fit into the page... How do I get rid of the indentation? Further more, I tried to specify "Rotate 90 degrees" in "Spec. Table" of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: sty)". Any ideas? It seems like I need to use "Linebreaks" option in order to have multiple lines in a cell. However, in some cells this option is greyed out. It seems it is dependant on borders around that cell or smth else... Also, I am unable to orient text in a cell vertically, and get the same error message as above. I read through User's guide section on tables, but didn't find any help there. ;( Am I trying to acomplish too much at the current stage of LyX's development? FWIW, I'm using 1.03 compiled from sources on a Debian 2.1 system. -- Arcady Genkin "It seems as though I had not drunk from the cup of wisdom, but had fallen into it." (S. Kierkegaard)
Re: Tables stuff
> of "Table Layout", but LaTeX doesn't grok it, saying:"!LaTeX Error: > File `rotating.sty' not found. or enter new name. (Default extension: > sty)". Any ideas? Yes ;-) LaTeX did not found rotating.sty. It usually comes with your LaTeX distribution, in my case (SuSE 6.0) it is /usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/misc/rotating.sty Anyway, you could get it from your nearest CTAN mirror, e.g. from http://www.dante.de/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/supported/rotating/ Regards, Andre' PS: To the devvies: How about a second LyX distribution including everything possibly needed, at least the supported .sty files? -- Andre' Poenitz, TU Chemnitz, Fakultaet fuer Mathematik [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... +49 3727 58 1381
