I'm starting to make my own :) just need to make them .. i have put some in stock in the meantime
had to figure out how to do it with a greaseweazel usb drive interface ..lots of fun Greg On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 7:58 PM Brian K. White <b.kenyo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes well, yes, TPDD1 is almost entirely different. There is some > overlap, some backwards compatibility from TPDD2 to TPDD1, but you need > to be using the TPDD1 version of any and all directions. > > If Greg is out of TPDD1 util disks, you can create your own with pdd.sh > if you want, but you don't need to bother. > > You don't need the util disk unless you just want to use the original > software just for the heck of it. TS-DOS, DSKMGR, and TEENY are all > available already from downloads, with a convenient bootstrapper > installer from a pc, and ts-dos is better than Floppy anyway. And you > said you also even have a ts-dos option rom which is even better than > installing the ram version. So you're already all set even better than > having the original disk. > > I have a stack of 100 blank disks right next to me that I was supposed > to make 50 each tpdd1 & 2 disks for Greg since probably over two years > ago. (Sorry Greg) So I imagine he's out of them, unless he started > making them himself or got someone else to. Anyone can make them now. > The means are all available on-line. > > pdd.sh comes with disk images of both tpdd1 & 2 util disks ready to go, > with the command line right in the readme, and even links to the nice > labels I made for the original set I made for Greg a few years ago so > anyone can reproduce them, both the data and the labels. The label > software is open source and the label design files even include links to > where to buy the exact blank labels. > > So it's all reproducible and open source* if anyone really wants one and > is sick of waiting for me to make some more for Greg. And the only > hardware you need is the same tpdd drive you want the disk for, and a > serial connection, all described in the hardware document linked in the > pdd.sh readme. > > * Except of course the actual data in the disk image is copyright Tandy > but, shrug, that would matter more to me if you could still call up a RS > parts line and order a replacement 26-3808 or 26-3814 disk. > > -- > bkw > > > On 11/19/22 14:35, Spencer wrote: > > Does everybody want to hear a funny??? Guess what? After reading links > > from Brian (not the sheep dip guy Bruce) I realized there is a BIG > > difference with the TPPD1 and the TPPD2. IT ACTUALLY says Portable Disk > > Drive for TPPD1 and Portable Disk Drive 2 for TPPD2 right on the face! > > What about that?? ;-) Yep brain fart! So I can do the bootstrap, but > > no Utility Disk. I looked at the link Brian gave me where I can buy the > > Utility Disk for $15 BUT what I have to wait???. ;-) Dang! > > > > All this time I was treating it like a TPPD2 - wow! Too much on my mind! > > > > Spencer > > > > P.S. Let me hear the chuckles now. ;-) > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 09:35:51 PM EST, Brian K. White > > <b.kenyo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On 11/15/22 20:12, Spencer wrote: > > > I found this llink > > > (Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual_26-3808S_text.pdf > > > (archive.org) > > > > > < > https://ia802901.us.archive.org/13/items/tandyportablediskdriveservicemanual263808stext/Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual_26-3808S_text.pdf > < > https://ia802901.us.archive.org/13/items/tandyportablediskdriveservicemanual263808stext/Tandy_Portable_Disk_Drive_Service_Manual_26-3808S_text.pdf>>) > and > it says "Service Manual" on the first page. It's not the typical service > manuals I've seen. > > > > That's the software manual and is known, and is for TPDD1 not TPDD2. > > One of the pages I linked already has it: > > tandy.wiki/TPDD > > And there you will also find an actual normal service manual, but again > > for TPDD1 not TPDD2. > > > > When I said no one has turned up a service manual, I meant for TPDD2 > > because you were talking about a TPDD2. > > > > I also didn't realize you already had a whole other working TPDD2 to > > compare against. > > > > If I had known you already had a whole other TPDD2 and already made it > > work, I could have skipped a lot of that because you've already > > successfully done it, which proves your 200 is ok, your disk is ok, you > > have the right kind of disk, your cable is ok, and you know how to > > perform the bootstrap. > > > > If you have TS-DOS in rom, then really that's the best, and in that > > case, you actually don't want to try to install Floppy because they > > conflict. Just use one or the other. I mean there are ways but it's not > > worth getting into that. The simple answer is if you have TS-DOS, > > especially in ROM or via REX#, then just use that and don't even bother > > with the bootstrap procedure or Floppy. > > > > I brought up pdd.sh just for interrogating the drive at a lower level so > > you can debug what's wrong. It can show at least if the drive firmware > > is running and communicating and it's just a physical problem for > > instance. "drive not ready" from TS-DOS doesn't tell you really anything. > > > > But it's barely documented so it's also kind of arcane to try to use > > unless you're me I guess. But for instance maybe if you try a format, > > and it spins the drive and steps the head, but always fails verify, or > > if trying to read a raw sector always yields all 00's or drive not > > ready, maybe that means there's a problem with the head or the cable to > > the head. If the head never steps, that's a separate cable if I remember > > correctly. TPDD2 is a lot easier than TPDD1, but even on TPDD2 a couple > > of the cables can be a tricky. So there is some chance still for a > > pretty easy fix by checking just major functions like that to see if > > some parts work and only some parts don't work, before having to think > > about maybe something more complicated wrong with the electronics. > > > > Could be something really mechanically simple too like the disk media > > isn't being pressed against the head if there's anything wrong with that > > black arm or the little microfiber pad or the metal part that raises and > > lowers the arm. > > > > As for the crazy rocket science, that is just what's going on behind the > > scenes. The procedure is fast and easy and works, if you do it exactly > > as specified in the manual, but I have seen people fail to do that, but > > think they were doing what it said, and think it didn't work. Because > > although the directions work, they don't say why they work. So I was > > just showing what is actually happening. > > > > -- > > bkw > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I ran the IPL from Bank1 which was a file I created by following > the > > > TPDD2 Operations Manual; within the IPL file it was simply => RUN > > > "COM:98N1ENN." I ran it with the drive off then I turned it on - > nothing > > > happens. With my drive that works this command works fine, but with > this > > > one with problems it doesn't work. Agree running this command from > basic > > > would do the same thing. On pg 8 of the Ops Manual it says exactly > what > > > to do as far as saving this IPL BA file. No rocket science or > convoluted > > > details but simple straight forward details. I know it's not the > serial > > > cable or port on the T200 because it works with my other TPDD2. So on > > > the misbehaving drive it never shows the "INITIAL PROGRAM LOADER II" > > > header. Didn't get any message about "SYSTEM EXISTS" - nada. Got the > > > Util diskette with Backup.ba and Fremem.ba and other files. My serial > > > cable is the one that I bought 2 years ago that came with the drive > and > > > the Utility diskette and they work. I'm assuming it's the original > cable > > > because it was nicely packed with the nice little blue carrying case > > > with Tandy written on it. > > > > > > I have TS-DOS on ROM, but haven't tried it yet with a TPDD2. > > > > > > The TPL I'm referring is the file that Ops Manual suggested creating > and > > > adding the COM line to it (just one line above). > > > > > > Ultimately with the drive that works I simply ran the IPL, turned on > the > > > drive and it did it's thing, then I began using the utility diskette > > > with backup and made copies of the Utility disk, so this times me the > > > problem is with the troublesome drive. I would run the IPL, turn on > the > > > drive and nothing. I even went upstairs for a cup of coffee and still > > > nothing when I returned, so shift-break to get out of it. That's all > > > I've got. > > > > > > Thanks for your time! It's appreciated. > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:40:10 PM EST, Brian K. White > > > <b.kenyo...@gmail.com <mailto:b.kenyo...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The operation manual is on-line several places. > > > http://tandy.wiki/TPDD <http://tandy.wiki/TPDD > > ><http://tandy.wiki/TPDD <http://tandy.wiki/TPDD>> > > > > > > I don't think anyone has ever turned up a service manual or > programming > > > manual for it yet. > > > > > > I'm confused by what you said earlier. > > > You said you ran the IPL from ram, but, the boot procedure for TPDD2 > > > doesn't require saving any IPL. You just manually enter a single > command > > > in BASIC and the drive does the rest. > > > > > > But there is more to it than that. You don't just run the command, you > > > have to arrange several details and conditions exactly a certain way > and > > > THEN run the command at a certain point in a short sequence of > > > procedures. If you omit any steps or do anything out of order, it > > > doesn't work, and some of the details don't seem important so it's > > > natural to gloss over things not realizing they actually matter. > > > > > > It requires the special util disk for TPDD2 (the TPDD1 one won't work > on > > > TPDD2), the special serial cable (includes transistors inside, it's > not > > > an ordinary cable). > > > > > > Start with the drive connected and turned OFF. > > > Make sure the write-protect hole on the TPDD2 util disk is OPEN. > > > Insert the TPDD2 util disk. > > > Type into BASIC: > > > RUN "COM:98N1ENN" > > > and hit Enter > > > Only now turn the drive ON. > > > > > > The drive does the rest itself. > > > > > > The drive is checking a few different things one time at power-on to > > > decide if it should do the bootstrap. > > > * disk must be inserted > > > * disk must be write-protected > > > * DSR pin must be low > > > * disk must contain the necessary data in the expected location on > disk > > > (I don't know the exact rules the firmware is following, just that the > > > util disk satisfies it.) > > > All that has to be in place before power-on. It doesn't matter any > other > > > time. You can't trigger the bootstrap after the fact. It's a one-time > > > check right at power-on. > > > > > > > > > You can also skip the normal util disk and just use any other TPDD > > > client instead of Floppy. You can use a bootstrapper to install TS-DOS > > > onto the 200 from a PC, and then us TS-DOS with the drive. > > > You only need the util disk if you want to run the original Floppy > tpdd > > > client that came with the drive. But it's not the best DOS so there > > > isn't really much reason to bother with it except just for academic > > > reasons. If you just want to use the drive, none of the bootup > procedure > > > matters since the util disk is the only disk know that does it. Every > > > other program has to be installed some other way. > > > > > > To install TS-DOS from a pc, If Windows try github.com/bkw777/tsend > > > if mac or linux, try github.com/bkw777/dlplus > > > each one's readme has further details. You want TS-DOS.200 in either > > > case since you have a 200. > > > > > > > > > Possible problems: > > > > > > The serial cable is special and has transistors inside. Do you have an > > > original cable or a proper replacement (github.com/bkw777/TPDD_Cable > ), > > > or something that's just wire and connectors without the > level-shifting > > > transistors? The original cables have a sharp bend at the plug that I > am > > > amazed isn't broken wires on everyone's cables by now. Most original > > > cables still seem to work actually, but I just suspect that cable > until > > > proven working, or if it looks like it hasn't been flexed a lot right > at > > > the db25 boot and "looks good". > > > > > > The disk is special. Do you have an original TPDD2 util disk or a > proper > > > copy on 720K media, or something else? TPDD1 util disk is different > and > > > won't work. A copy made on a 1.44M disk may work but is > untrustworthy. A > > > copy made by manually copying the files instead of using the backup > > > utility won't work. > > > > > > If by IPL you mean the 3 or-so line BASIC for TPDD1, that won't work > for > > > TPDD2. If you mean the single command for TPDD2, it requires more than > > > just running the command but I already went over that above. > > > > > > If you have a linux or mac machine, and can scrounge up the necessary > > > 9-25 & gender-change adapters *without* null-modem, you can > interrogate > > > the drive manually with this bash tpdd client: > > > github.com/bkw777/pdd.sh > > > see the hardware link in the readme for links to the right adapters. > > > > > > After install just try "$ pdd ls" > > > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$ pdd ls > > > ----- Directory Listing [0] ----- > > > AFLOPY2.SYS | F | 11475 > > > BACKUP.BA | F | 1940 > > > FREMEM.BA | F | 372 > > > ------------------------------------- > > > 186880 bytes free [WP] > > > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$ > > > > > > (that A in AFLOPY2.SYS is really reverse video, and stands for a > > > normally non-printable binary byte 0x01 that's on the disk but not > > > normally visible in any normal DOS like Floppy or TS-DOS, it's part of > > > what makes this disk "special") > > > > > > If you don't get a file listing, you could try increasing the debug > > > verbosity to 1, 2, 3 or more, and try the "status" command, or > > > "condition" (a similar but different command), or "ls" again, and see > > > what kind of error code(s) the drive returns. > > > > > > $ DEBUG=3 pdd status > > > > > > "drive not ready" could be all kinds of things, but the drive firmware > > > actually returns a bunch of different possible numeric error codes as > > > part of the response to every commend, and pdd.sh will display a text > > > meaning of the numerical code. (you can look at the list near the top > of > > > the script too) > > > High levels of debug will show a lot of stuff that won't make a lot of > > > sense, but it's the actual traffic between the pc and the drive, in > hex, > > > with the various parts of the packets seperated and parsed. > > > > > > Mainly though you just want to see if traffic is flowing in both > > > directions and you're getting meaningful responses from the drive at > all. > > > > > > And see things like, can you make the drive spin on demand with > commands > > > like "ls" or "format"? > > > > > > With ordinary serial cables connecting to a drive emulator on a PC > > > instead of a real drive, "drive not ready" usually means the serial > > > cable doesn't have the necessary DTR/DSR connections, or at least > > > loop-backed. It should never be a problem with an original cable and a > > > real drive, but, it's just a data point that suggests looking at the > > > serial connection. Maybe the cable, maybe the port is bad on the 200. > > > TPDD needs RX, TX GND, DTR, and DSR. RTS & CTS don't matter. > > > > > > Other things you can try are "format" to erase and format a disk. > > > It's possible the drive is good and only your disk is bad. > > > Get a "new" 720K disk (NOT 1.44M, and by "new" I just mean one you are > > > willing to erase, not your original util disk!), close the > write-protect > > > door in the corner, and try "format" (from within pdd.sh I mean). > > > > > > If you don't have a TPDD2 util disk, and you think maybe the drive is > ok > > > but maybe just your disk isn't, get a new or disposable 720K disk and > > > try the restore-disk command to create a new TPDD2 util disk from the > > > included disk image. The directions are in the readme on github but > here > > > is a session capture too just for reference: > > > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$ pdd > > > > > > (I ran "pdd" with no args, which puts you into interactive mode) > > > > > > PDD(opr:6.2,F)> status > > > Ready > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> cond > > > Disk Write-Protected > > > Disk Changed > > > > > > ("PDD(opr:6.2,F)>" is a prompt that shows a bunch of > > > current mode/status stuff. The client (pdd.sh is a tpdd client) > > > doesn't know anything about the drive yet, so it's just showing > > > the default settings. > > > The status command caused some one-time init/detect stuff to > > > happen along the way before doing the actual status command, > > > so after the status command, the prompt changes to show that > > > we detected a TPDD2, and the [0] means any file operations will > > > happen in bank 0. > > > > > > The condition command returned that the disk is write-protected, > > > and detected that the drive door had been opened since the last > > > command. > > > > > > Here I also removed the disk and closed the write-protect window > > > in the corner of the disk and re-iserted.) > > > > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> cond > > > Disk Changed > > > > > > (shows the drive door was opened again, and no write-protect this > > time) > > > (below for "rd" it's the full path to the file where I happen > > > to have my clone of the repo) > > > > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> rd > > > ~/src/pdd.sh/disk_images/TPDD2_26-3814_Utility_Disk.pdd2 > > > Restoring Disk from File: > > > "/home/bkw/src/pdd.sh/disk_images/TPDD2_26-3814_Utility_Disk.pdd2" > > > Formatting Disk, TPDD2 mode > > > : Are you sure? (y/N) y > > > [########################################] 100% > > > > > > Loading > > "/home/bkw/src/pdd.sh/disk_images/TPDD2_26-3814_Utility_Disk.pdd2" > > > Writing Disk > > > [########################################] 100% > > > > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> ls > > > ----- Directory Listing [0] ----- > > > AFLOPY2.SYS | F | 11475 > > > BACKUP.BA | F | 1940 > > > FREMEM.BA | F | 372 > > > ------------------------------------- > > > 186880 bytes free > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> > > > > > > (The util disk is created, but the drive firmware will ignore it at > > > power-on unless it's write-protected, so open the write-protect > door...) > > > > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> ls > > > ----- Directory Listing [0] ----- > > > AFLOPY2.SYS | F | 11475 > > > BACKUP.BA | F | 1940 > > > FREMEM.BA | F | 372 > > > ------------------------------------- > > > 186880 bytes free [WP] > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> > > > > > > (the [WP] in the corner shows that the disk is write-protected) > > > > > > PDD(pdd2[0]:6.2,F)> exit > > > bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw> <mailto:bkw@fw <mailto:bkw@fw>>:~$ > > > > > > > > > It's very easy for the client and the drive to get out of sync. > > > The protocol has almost no provision for detecting and handling > > > unexpected events gracefully. If anything irregular happens on either > > > side, with the drive or the pc, the two will be immediately out of > step > > > and no recovering. Just power-cycle the drive and exit & restart the > > > script any time anything at all out of order happens like if you open > > > the drive door in the middle of a format or ctrl-c the script in the > > > middle of a file copy etc. > > > > > > When the drive realizes that "something ain't right", it blinks the > > > low-battery light and stops responding or doing anything. > > > > > > If at any time you see the low-battery light blinking, just > power-cycle > > > the drive and start over whatever you were trying to do. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > bkw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/14/22 18:09, Spencer wrote: > > > > Found nothing of value when I looked again. I found that on some > > earlier > > > > models (so it appears) it had a physical dip block, but on later > > models > > > > it had four jumpers on SW1 but were soldered (or etched in the > > board) at > > > > the factory and the bottom part of the four switches showed the > > contacts > > > > as open. It looks like they should be off, but please set me > > straight if > > > > my assumption is wrong. In any event still the "drive not ready" > error > > > > still there ;-(. I'll see if I can find a service manual unless > any of > > > > you have one you wouldn't mind sending me. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your help! > > > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 04:57:18 PM EST, Spencer > > > > <spencer...@yahoo.com <mailto:spencer...@yahoo.com> > > <mailto:spencer...@yahoo.com <mailto:spencer...@yahoo.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok I popped the hood and YES there is a dip block of four switches > and > > > > all are off, and yes it's covered by the shield so opening that > little > > > > door shows just the shiled. If anyone knows how they should be > please > > > > let me know. Something I did find was the power supply has a white > > > > connector that plugs into a board with the fuse and it was some > pulled > > > > out from one side but not all the way. Actually don't know if I > pulled > > > > it out when I opened it or not. Btw the 1A fuse is good. Everything > > > > looks good. Don't see any popped/leaking caps or broken solder > joints, > > > > but I'll try it again and share what I find. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 03:26:44 PM EST, John R. Hogerhuis > > > > <jho...@pobox.com <mailto:jho...@pobox.com> > > <mailto:jho...@pobox.com <mailto:jho...@pobox.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 11:59 AM Greg Swallow <gswal...@mchsi.com > > <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com> > > > <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com>> > > > > <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com> > > <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com <mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh my. Checked for cover and assumed DIP under it as the TPDD1 I > > > > once had. Opened the TPPD2 lid to expose bright shiney shield. > No > > > > DIP switches. Never had to change anything so never opened it > > before > > > > now. > > > > > > > > > > > > And my recollection is that means short of somehow populating the > DIP > > > > (which may or may not work) you're locked at 19200bps on the > > TPDD-2. The > > > > TPDD-1 is actually a rebadged Brother FB-100. The FB-100 has the > dip > > > > switches, but defaults to 9600bps which the Brother Knitting > machine > > > > devices are locked to. So although TPDD-1's can be used with > Brother > > > > Knitting Machines, the TPDD-2 cannot. > > > > > > > > -- John. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > bkw > > > > > > > > > > -- > > bkw > > > > -- > bkw > >
