Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
ext Igor Stoppa wrote: On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 10:34 -0400, ext Michael P. Lococo wrote: I think what Chris, me and others are really looking for is the alarm framework for application notification, not the mere RTC alarm. There is no alarm framework I would have expected such framework after the longish discussions on the mailinglist some time ago (effectively more than half a year ago). Since there isn't any calendar application in the 2006 software edition, management didn't really prioritise a sane alarm interface. There is is substantial user demand, though, and there are three different community-based or third-party calendaring applications that are all hamstrung by the lack of an alarm facility. It seems fairly clear at this point that: 1) The need for an alarm framework is not a passing fancy. 2) In order to be done sanely, it must be centralized... either as a single community project or as a Nokia supported part of the product. Applications cannot reasonably be expected to handle it without tripping over each other and killing battery life with polling. Mike I think Devesh is the proper interface for this sort of discussion, since he takes care of harmonizing this sort of internal/external needs/demands/activities. And he's your best chance to get any statement ;-) Ok, the status - based on mailing list discussion about alarm requirements, it was pushed as a requirement to be delivered. It is accepted and, as i understand implemented (framework etal). What was also at design time agreed that the alarm framework/alarmd could be installed standalone and compatible to IT OS 2006 (so it is not tied with future product release) - currently it is in legal check for approval to open. Once that is done, the project would most probably move to garage - I am hoping as soon that happens, it possibly appear in sardine Best Regards Devesh -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa (Nokia M - OSSO / Tampere) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
Hi, Devesh Kothari wrote: - currently it is in legal check for approval to open. Once that is done, the project would most probably move to garage - I am hoping as soon that happens, it possibly appear in sardine that's great news! I guess there are quite some people here looking forward to it :-) Greetings Florian -- The dream of yesterday Florian Boor is the hope of todayTel: +49 271-771091-14 and the reality of tomorrow.Fax: +49 271-771091-19 [Robert Hutchings Goddard, 1904][EMAIL PROTECTED] 1D78 2D4D 6C53 1CA4 5588 D07B A8E7 940C 25B7 9A76 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
- Second put that internal implementation somewhere so that it can be enhanced and productised by the community, like e.g. Garage. If you do not do so I see the danger that the community might not be willing to wait for a next IT2007 edition which might eventually have the framework in place (or may not). But instead we might end up with double effort, i.e. the community develops such a framework, uses it until you/Nokia release your version and the community version will become obsolete - very annoying. Well, it all boils down to manpower. It might seem that it's an easy enough thing to just release things into the public and let the community to the rest, but everything has to go through the Nokia legal machinery before this can happen, thus the work needed is pretty significant. At the moment we prefer using our time to make the new alarm framework as good as possible (which will be properly documented). This is worrying me a lot. You're effectively saying We don't want the community to be involved. I'm pretty close to exchanging 'maemo' with 'qtopia' (and vice versa) in this mail: http://lists.trolltech.com/qtopia-interest/2006-06/msg0.html and repost it to this list. * Not at all. Community involvement is wanted and actively sought. As David pointed out legal due diligence is necessary and it can add some overhead and latency but it is not as bad as it sounds. We are currently developing a number of components in the open, meaning components for which every commit is done directly on a public SVN and releases are made from there. That includes many of the components of the Hildon Application Framework, which you can find here: https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf We have recently setup a bleeding edge distro to allow people to follow the bleeding edge and participate. http://repository.maemo.org/sardine/ You can follow up what goes on in Sardine here: http://repository.maemo.org/sardine/rss20.xml Community involvement is most definitely wanted. Not every component in Maemo is currently developed in the open, but there is a clear trend of increasingly open development. As David pointed out, it takes time and effort to get there so please be patient. One great way to speed up the process is simply to get involved with the components that are already in open development, using them, reporting problem, suggesting improvements, sending patches. Carlos ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
On mån, 2006-07-31 at 14:17 +0200, ext Nils Faerber wrote: [snip] OK, where does that lead us now? Do I understand this right that you/Nokia have an implementation, right? And this implementation is still locked in some desk because it is not ready for production (yet), right? No, it's under active development here, and as soon as it works as expected well pass it through legal checks and unleash it onto the unsuspecting Maemo community. *Muahahaha!* (ehrm). Well, then I would propose two steps: - First, document somewhere what *is* existing concerning alarm with the current IT2006 edition, no matter how limited it is. This issue has been a FAQ for almost a year now and it would help to avoid n-th times asked questions. /mnt/initfs/usr/sbin/retutime --help The retutime tool has been mentioned several times on this list as far I can remember, and trying `--help' doesn't require that big of a leap of imagination, eh? - Second put that internal implementation somewhere so that it can be enhanced and productised by the community, like e.g. Garage. If you do not do so I see the danger that the community might not be willing to wait for a next IT2007 edition which might eventually have the framework in place (or may not). But instead we might end up with double effort, i.e. the community develops such a framework, uses it until you/Nokia release your version and the community version will become obsolete - very annoying. Well, it all boils down to manpower. It might seem that it's an easy enough thing to just release things into the public and let the community to the rest, but everything has to go through the Nokia legal machinery before this can happen, thus the work needed is pretty significant. At the moment we prefer using our time to make the new alarm framework as good as possible (which will be properly documented). Regards: David -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
Hi Chris, -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ext Chris Lord Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 16:34 To: Nils Faerber Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms On Fri, 2006-07-28 at 11:33 +0200, Nils Faerber wrote: Are there any header files/libraries available that provide this functionality that I'm missing? The Clock application has the ability to set alarms that wake the device, so it must be possible. The setting of alarms is done through a small cmdline tool called retutime. There has been some discussion about it before, google is your friend :-) Best wishes, Dirk. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi Chris, Hi Dirk! -Original Message- On Fri, 2006-07-28 at 11:33 +0200, Nils Faerber wrote: Are there any header files/libraries available that provide this functionality that I'm missing? The Clock application has the ability to set alarms that wake the device, so it must be possible. The setting of alarms is done through a small cmdline tool called retutime. There has been some discussion about it before, google is your friend :-) Well, that is just half of the game, I am afraid. Google indeed points to a post by Jason Mills: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-January/002437.html In this post Jason also sais: ... 4) The osso_alarm and osso_notifier daemons are missing at least from the 2005.51 Nokia build. ... I think what Chris, me and others are really looking for is the alarm framework for application notification, not the mere RTC alarm. There must be, at least I hope, a clean way to - set an alarm by an applcation - get notified when alarm is reached - remove a pending alarm - do not conflict with other alarms (in case two aplications set alarms) In Familiar/GPE we use atd spooling for this - not necessarily the best way of handling the problem but it mostly works. And we use the SA1100 RTC to actually trigger the alarm. In this sense retutime serves just the RTC alarm purpose but I think we are still missing the atd equivalent. Best wishes, Dirk. Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts Tel: +49-271-771091-12 Dreisbachstr. 24 Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57250 Netphen Mob: +49-176-21024535 -- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
On mån, 2006-07-31 at 13:01 +0200, ext Nils Faerber wrote: [snip] Well, that is just half of the game, I am afraid. Google indeed points to a post by Jason Mills: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-January/002437.html In this post Jason also sais: ... 4) The osso_alarm and osso_notifier daemons are missing at least from the 2005.51 Nokia build. ... I think what Chris, me and others are really looking for is the alarm framework for application notification, not the mere RTC alarm. There is no alarm framework There must be, at least I hope, a clean way to - set an alarm by an application No clean way. Retutime is the only way to set alarm, with all its limitations. - get notified when alarm is reached Nope. - remove a pending alarm Retutime. - do not conflict with other alarms (in case two aplications set alarms) That's easy, but not pretty. Since the only available means of setting alarms are through retutime, and retutime in turn depends on the hardware capabilities only, alarms are max 24h into the future, and only one can be set. Regards: David -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
Weinehall David (Nokia-M/Tampere) schrieb: On mån, 2006-07-31 at 13:01 +0200, ext Nils Faerber wrote: [snip] Well, that is just half of the game, I am afraid. Google indeed points to a post by Jason Mills: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-January/002437.html In this post Jason also sais: ... 4) The osso_alarm and osso_notifier daemons are missing at least from the 2005.51 Nokia build. ... I think what Chris, me and others are really looking for is the alarm framework for application notification, not the mere RTC alarm. There is no alarm framework Uff! I would have expected such framework after the longish discussions on the mailinglist some time ago (effectively more than half a year ago). There must be, at least I hope, a clean way to - set an alarm by an application No clean way. Retutime is the only way to set alarm, with all its limitations. And there are quite some ... limitations I mean ... - get notified when alarm is reached Nope. How does the alarm clock handle this then? It plays a sound when the alarm time is reached. Or is it simply so that the device will wake-up when the alarm is reached and each application checks on its own to see if alarm time has arrived? That would mean to kind of poll on the time which is nasty. - remove a pending alarm Retutime. - do not conflict with other alarms (in case two aplications set alarms) That's easy, but not pretty. Since the only available means of setting alarms are through retutime, and retutime in turn depends on the hardware capabilities only, alarms are max 24h into the future, and only one can be set. Well, but if you have two applications and both set an alarm, then consequently one alarm is lost, isn't it? The application that lost its alarm would have to set it again. But how does it know that its alarm got evaporated? And even worse since the alarms can only be set 24h in advance does that indeed mean that every application that wants to use alarms would have to handle this nasty 24h hopping on its own? I.e. if the alarm is more than 24h in the future then set an alarm for 24h, then check again and set a new alarm until it is less than 24h away? That is messy, indeed. And besides why didn't RETU get a pretty normal RTC device driver :) ? That would have made things a lot easier... Regards: David Cheers nils faerber -- kernel concepts Tel: +49-271-771091-12 Dreisbachstr. 24 Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57250 Netphen Mob: +49-176-21024535 -- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
On mån, 2006-07-31 at 13:29 +0200, ext Nils Faerber wrote: Weinehall David (Nokia-M/Tampere) schrieb: On mån, 2006-07-31 at 13:01 +0200, ext Nils Faerber wrote: [snip] Well, that is just half of the game, I am afraid. Google indeed points to a post by Jason Mills: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-January/002437.html In this post Jason also sais: ... 4) The osso_alarm and osso_notifier daemons are missing at least from the 2005.51 Nokia build. ... I think what Chris, me and others are really looking for is the alarm framework for application notification, not the mere RTC alarm. There is no alarm framework Uff! I would have expected such framework after the longish discussions on the mailinglist some time ago (effectively more than half a year ago). Since there isn't any calendar application in the 2006 software edition, management didn't really prioritise a sane alarm interface. Every other limitation follows from that. Regards: David -- A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
Weinehall David (Nokia-M/Tampere) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On mån, 2006-07-31 at 13:29 +0200, ext Nils Faerber wrote: I would have expected such framework after the longish discussions on the mailinglist some time ago (effectively more than half a year ago). Since there isn't any calendar application in the 2006 software edition, management didn't really prioritise a sane alarm interface. That is an interesting descision, given that AFAIK Nokia tries to push Maemo as a more general platform for all kinds of different devices. Alarms are a central component for most handheld devices (maybe with the exception of the 770, but it certainly would not hurt there...) and leaving that undefined in Maemo will create exactly that kind of confusion and hamper the adoption of Maemo as a more general platform. Please ask your management to reconsider that. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Maemo alarms == retutime
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 10:34 -0400, ext Michael P. Lococo wrote: I think what Chris, me and others are really looking for is the alarm framework for application notification, not the mere RTC alarm. There is no alarm framework I would have expected such framework after the longish discussions on the mailinglist some time ago (effectively more than half a year ago). Since there isn't any calendar application in the 2006 software edition, management didn't really prioritise a sane alarm interface. There is is substantial user demand, though, and there are three different community-based or third-party calendaring applications that are all hamstrung by the lack of an alarm facility. It seems fairly clear at this point that: 1) The need for an alarm framework is not a passing fancy. 2) In order to be done sanely, it must be centralized... either as a single community project or as a Nokia supported part of the product. Applications cannot reasonably be expected to handle it without tripping over each other and killing battery life with polling. Mike I think Devesh is the proper interface for this sort of discussion, since he takes care of harmonizing this sort of internal/external needs/demands/activities. And he's your best chance to get any statement ;-) -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa (Nokia M - OSSO / Tampere) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
