Re: Features to improve the platform
Koen Kooi wrote: > Even better, the kernel patch doing exactly that was written by the Nokia > research lab in > brazil. Check linux-usb-devel archives (late feb, early march 2007). > Still this may not be very practical. How it works when you want to stop using usb storage and access your card from the device but want to continue to use usbnet (i.e. you do not want to remove the cable)? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Hagood schreef: > On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 10:36 +0300, Kalle Valo wrote: > >> Yes, that's a problem. Does USB support multiple profiles at the same >> time? What I'm after here is that N800 would have both USB mass >> storage and usbnet enabled concurrently. That would be really cool. > > Yes, USB can have a different class for each interface, with multiple > interfaces within a given configuration - so you can have an device with > multiple configurations, one configuration offering USB storage, one > offering USB networking, one offering USB serial, and one offering all > of the above, each on different endpoints. Even better, the kernel patch doing exactly that was written by the Nokia research lab in brazil. Check linux-usb-devel archives (late feb, early march 2007). regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFGigGDMkyGM64RGpERAtJzAJ9ejKvPqS/1KiKSXBiX3sBLljIbzgCfd4X7 zy1waVMB4Wg9aWCMQrvDz6Y= =5K06 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 10:36 +0300, Kalle Valo wrote: > Yes, that's a problem. Does USB support multiple profiles at the same > time? What I'm after here is that N800 would have both USB mass > storage and usbnet enabled concurrently. That would be really cool. Yes, USB can have a different class for each interface, with multiple interfaces within a given configuration - so you can have an device with multiple configurations, one configuration offering USB storage, one offering USB networking, one offering USB serial, and one offering all of the above, each on different endpoints. However, I don't know how well certain program launchers masquerading as operating systems would handle such devices, and I think that's why most devices restrict themselves to only one interface per configuration. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
"ext Frantisek Dufka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> Yeah, we do that also in-house sometimes. It's just pain to setup >> (remove and insert kernel modules etc.), I wish that there would be an >> easier way to do that. > > Never tried usbnet but with bluetooth PAN it is really painless once > you have it set up once (see > http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=52174#post52174 > except the dummy_wlan_down part and default gateway and dns setup). No > messing with modules except inserting bnep.ko once on N770. Thanks. I'll have to try it sometime. > I guess usb can be more problematic if you need usb storage too. Yes, that's a problem. Does USB support multiple profiles at the same time? What I'm after here is that N800 would have both USB mass storage and usbnet enabled concurrently. That would be really cool. > Bluetooth is ideal for this if you have BT on PC (unless you perhaps > care about the WLAN radio part which may be affected by bluetooth). Under really heavy load you might experience some slowdown, but it should work just fine. (I bet that after saying this someone reports a serious problem with the coexistence...) -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
Kalle Valo wrote: > Yeah, we do that also in-house sometimes. It's just pain to setup > (remove and insert kernel modules etc.), I wish that there would be an > easier way to do that. > Never tried usbnet but with bluetooth PAN it is really painless once you have it set up once (see http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=52174#post52174 except the dummy_wlan_down part and default gateway and dns setup). No messing with modules except inserting bnep.ko once on N770. I guess usb can be more problematic if you need usb storage too. Bluetooth is ideal for this if you have BT on PC (unless you perhaps care about the WLAN radio part which may be affected by bluetooth). Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
"ext Frantisek Dufka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > You don't need Connection manager and maemo IAP connections for ssh. You > can easily bypass it and connect to device over bluetooth PAN or usbnet > and then play with wi-fi and Connection manager to your heart's content > while your ssh connection is still running. Works fine, I have tried > this many times. Yeah, we do that also in-house sometimes. It's just pain to setup (remove and insert kernel modules etc.), I wish that there would be an easier way to do that. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
Murray Cumming wrote: > Debugging connection requests and disconnects is incredibly awkward on > the device only. You have to use an xterm because you can't ssh in, > because the whole point is that the connection is going up and down and > changing to different Access Points. You don't need Connection manager and maemo IAP connections for ssh. You can easily bypass it and connect to device over bluetooth PAN or usbnet and then play with wi-fi and Connection manager to your heart's content while your ssh connection is still running. Works fine, I have tried this many times. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
2007/6/12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: [..] > So please, if you have ideas for improvement have a look to the procedure in > the roadmap page and file our feature requests in bugzilla. Sorry for being lazy, but two things I really would like to see in a platform update, gcc-4, for it's fvisibilty-hidden feature. Recently built webkit gdk/cairo and itls about 16Mb. I understood from a qt developer that the qt build was less than halve in size due to this build flag, which makes enormous difference for g++ libraries heavily using templates And, well okay also end user, but how nice would it be to have the internet tablet as a spare SIP phone for in SOHO usage. Nowadays so called liveboxes, combined DSL/VoIP, allow access through this protocol, likewise for PBX boxes. Best regards, Koos ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
On Tue, 2007-06-12 at 13:00 +0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You know about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html > > We have been putting more flesh into it at a platform level. We will > keep making each entry a link describing details about the feature and > facilitating focused discussion around it. > > At the end of the roadmap page there are instruction to submit your > own feature requests to be, if approved, roadmapped and developed. We > really want to see this process happening. There are some platform > related feature requests submitted in bugzilla, but most of them are > about end user features. We would like to improve the maemo offer for > developers by implementing good and well formulated ideas received > from the community. > > So please, if you have ideas for improvement have a look to the > procedure in the roadmap page and file our feature requests in > bugzilla. My big wishlist item for today is an implementation of libconic for scratchbox. It could use network-manager. Debugging connection requests and disconnects is incredibly awkward on the device only. You have to use an xterm because you can't ssh in, because the whole point is that the connection is going up and down and changing to different Access Points. The best applications for the internet tablet will be ones that work well with the network. So that needs to be easier to develop. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1597 -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 18:04 -0400, ext Allan Doyle wrote: > I have put my needs/ideas into the Wiki at https://maemo.org/ > community/wiki/serverbrowserappdevelopment.html Thanks! Added to http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html (Wishlist - Development). You are hitting a good point here. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
I have put my needs/ideas into the Wiki at https://maemo.org/ community/wiki/serverbrowserappdevelopment.html As an aside, the wiki seems a bit touchy under Safari3 or Firefox on Mac OS X. The page behaved as though it sometimes got confused about whether it was in edit mode, preview mode, or view mode, but I muddled through. Apologies to whoever seems to be getting email announcements after each save! Allan On Jun 18, 2007, at 03:43, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Allan, sorry for not getting back to you before. > > Now we have one real precedent of a fully described feature request > listed in the roadmap. Hopefully others will follow: > > Bluetooth PAN support > http://maemo.org/community/wiki/bluetooth_pan_proposal.html > > >> I'm not sure how to package my wishes as feature requests, and >> I'm not sure they are really feature requests anyway. They are >> closer to philosophy... > > In order to convert philosophy to a requested feature you only have > to: > > - Describe the core point of your philosophy: what improvements would > your suggestion bring if applied. > > - Provide reasons to go for it: why it's worth and if you wish also > what > dark future we all would face in case of not getting this feature. > > - It also helps to know who are you (in relation to this feature) and > also who else is supporting it. > > You have done most of this in your email. I think is worth if you > go for > a second round, this time in a wiki page and an associated enhancement > request in bugzilla. We would then link it from > http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html and the progress from our side > would > be reported in the enhancement request. > > >> There's a lot of power in the ability to develop applications >> in Javascript, even if those applications never connect to the >> web. A single html page, coupled with some Javascript, that >> loads either from a file: URL or from an on-board web server >> can do quite a lot. > > Quim -- Allan Doyle http://museum.mit.edu/mwow +1.781.433.2695 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo.org performance (was RE: Features to improve the platform)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi Neil, > >> Quim - If you want to improve the Maemo platform, stop messing >> about in public with maemo.org > > Discussing new features has no relation with fixing maemo.org in terms > of tasks or people responsible. I fully agree that the maemo platform > will go nowhere without a solid web performance but I don't see why we > should stop the rest of processes until the web issues have been fixed. > > btw, perhaps Ferenc wants to report more but we have fixed a lot of > website bugs. We have also spent a lot of time trying to solve the > server issues, starting fixing small things, then the bigger ones and > finally renewing/reorganizing the web infrastructure completely - a > process going on as we speak. > > Quim I agree that the web site issues shouldn't prevent other processes continuing in parallel, what I meant by my comment was that the changes to the maemo site should be fully tested and deployed in an orderly fashion rather than the seemingly haphazard approach of late - perhaps this approach has been taken to fast track improvements by short cutting due process (which is kind of understandable) but in future web site changes should be fully planned and tested both before and after deployment in the production (ie. public) environment. I'm glad to hear that the web infra is being updated, it might be a good idea to publicise these changes prior to the updates taking place so that we (the users) will know when to expect possible downtime... temporary maintenance pages may also be a good idea (where possible) to avoid giving the impression that the site has died due to a failure of some sort. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo.org performance (was RE: Features to improve the platform)
On 13/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Neil,
>Quim - If you want to improve the Maemo platform, stop messing
>about in public with maemo.org
Discussing new features has no relation with fixing maemo.org in terms
of tasks or people responsible. I fully agree that the maemo platform
will go nowhere without a solid web performance but I don't see why we
should stop the rest of processes until the web issues have been fixed.
You started this discussion by saying:
You know about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html
We have been putting more flesh into it at a platform level.
Interested, I clicked the link to go take a look at the current state of the
roadmap. However, I couldn't see it, as the server was down.
The web issues have to be fixed first, because without a stable web
platform, we can't have a meaningful discussion about documents hosted on
that web platform, or even a discussion that mentions documents hosted on
that platform.
Right now, I still can't look at the document (it seems to not exist - see
the error page below), so I can't contribute anything to this discussion
other than asking that you fix the web platform so I have some idea what
you're talking about.
Is there anything we can do while the site is down to help you get it back
online?
---
Not Found
This page is not available on this server
Error 404 maemo.org
Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:01:02 +0300
Apache/2.2.3 (Debian) DAV/2 SVN/1.4.2 mod_ldap_userdir/1.1.11
PHP/4.4.4-8+etch1 mod_ssl/2.2.3 OpenSSL/0.9.8c Midgard/1.8.3 mod_perl/2.0.2
Perl/v5.8.8
Stacktrace:
1: /var/cache/midgard/midgard/7-49-31-0.php:0 {main}
2: /var/cache/midgard/midgard/7-49-31-0.php:130 midcom_application::codeinit
3:
/usr/share/midgard/svn/midcom/midcom_2_8/midcom.core/midcom/application.php:518
midcom_application::_process
---
4:
/usr/share/midgard/svn/midcom/midcom_2_8/midcom.core/midcom/application.php:1036
midcom_application::generate_error
--
There is nothing more worthy of contempt than a man who quotes himself -
Zhasper, 2004
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Re: Features to improve the platform
Neil MacLeod wrote:
> It's 2.35am (1.35am GMT) in London and for the last 25 minutes at least...
>
> DOWN:
>
> Planet Maemo (http://planet.maemo.org/) - connection refused (err 503, Squid
> error page).
>
> Maemo Bugzilla (https://maemo.org/bugzilla/) - not responding (no server?)
>
> App Downloads (http://maemo.org/downloads/) - the initial page is available
> however searching for any applications results in a "Connection refused"
> error (again a 503/Squid error page).
>
> UP:
>
> Home page (http://maemo.org/) - available
> Wiki (http://maemo.org/community/wiki) - available
>
>
> It's really, really frustrating if you're going to perform maintenance at
> least give some warning or put up a maintenance holding page ("Site currently
> undergoing maintenance - back shortly"). If the above pages are down through
> no fault of your own I apologise for having a go but please consider
> implementing site monitoring and alarms.
Plaent Maemo, Bugzilla and Downloads returned at approx 3.15am (2.15GMT).
Roadmap (http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html) is currently broken due to what
looks like a configuration error (the page consists of a 404 error and a
Midgard stacktrace).
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maemo.org performance (was RE: Features to improve the platform)
Hi Neil, >Quim - If you want to improve the Maemo platform, stop messing >about in public with maemo.org Discussing new features has no relation with fixing maemo.org in terms of tasks or people responsible. I fully agree that the maemo platform will go nowhere without a solid web performance but I don't see why we should stop the rest of processes until the web issues have been fixed. btw, perhaps Ferenc wants to report more but we have fixed a lot of website bugs. We have also spent a lot of time trying to solve the server issues, starting fixing small things, then the bigger ones and finally renewing/reorganizing the web infrastructure completely - a process going on as we speak. Quim ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
It's 2.35am (1.35am GMT) in London and for the last 25 minutes at least...
DOWN:
Planet Maemo (http://planet.maemo.org/) - connection refused (err 503, Squid
error page).
Maemo Bugzilla (https://maemo.org/bugzilla/) - not responding (no server?)
App Downloads (http://maemo.org/downloads/) - the initial page is available
however searching for any applications results in a "Connection refused" error
(again a 503/Squid error page).
UP:
Home page (http://maemo.org/) - available
Wiki (http://maemo.org/community/wiki) - available
It's really, really frustrating if you're going to perform maintenance at
least give some warning or put up a maintenance holding page ("Site currently
undergoing maintenance - back shortly"). If the above pages are down through no
fault of your own I apologise for having a go but please consider implementing
site monitoring and alarms.
___
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Re: Features to improve the platform
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You know about _http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html_ > > We have been putting more flesh into it at a platform level. We will > keep making each entry a link describing details about the feature and > facilitating focused discussion around it. > > At the end of the roadmap page there are instruction to submit your own > feature requests to be, if approved, roadmapped and developed. We really > want to see this process happening. There are some platform related > feature requests submitted in bugzilla, but most of them are about end > user features. We would like to improve the maemo offer for developers > by implementing good and well formulated ideas received from the community. > > So please, if you have ideas for improvement have a look to the > procedure in the roadmap page and file our feature requests in bugzilla. > > Quim > > > > > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers I'm probably not going to be very popular for this post, but hey - I gave up trying to win popularity contests before I left high school... :) Quim - If you want to improve the Maemo platform, stop messing about in public with maemo.org - the stability of this site is chronic, and of late the site has been down more times that it is available (at least that's the impression from here in London, UK). Right now, Planet is not loading properly (it's been like this for at least the last couple of days - takes forever to load). Bugzilla availability is intermittent, but generally it's more available than Planet. If you must make changes to the site, please do it in a UAT environment where you can test the changes prior to deployment on the public site. If you want to be taken seriously, the web servers and network infrastructure must be managed with more professionalism than has been apparent over the last few days and weeks - I manage web sites for a living and I'd be out of a job if any of my sites had your kind of availability. I've never seen a public site go down so often for so many different reasons. If maemo.org ever goes mainstream, you need to have the kind of availability that Microsoft and other vendors provide, and not the kind of availability that you would expect from someone running a web server over their home ADSL connection. New users looking to download the latest apps aren't going to be too impressed when maemo.org is repeatedly offline and the Download pages can't be accessed, or are borked because of a new config change which nobody seems to have tested (as happened the other weekend). Sorry if this criticism is harsh (and please don't take it personally!) but maemo.org site availability (and often it's performance when it is available) is a running joke and it's incredibly frustrating trying to connect to maemo.org only to find it's down yet again. It's all very well putting together a great platfom but all your efforts will be wasted if nobody can ever access it. PS. When was the last time Planet updated, is the cron job failing again? Perhaps consider adding a footer "Last updated: dd-MMM- hh:mm UTC" to the Planet page. Also, please add the times to the individual articles in Planet - currently Planet articles show only the abbreviation "UTC" with no time or date visible. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Features to improve the platform
I'm not sure how to package my wishes as feature requests, and I'm not sure they are really feature requests anyway. They are closer to philosophy... There's a lot of power in the ability to develop applications in Javascript, even if those applications never connect to the web. A single html page, coupled with some Javascript, that loads either from a file: URL or from an on-board web server can do quite a lot. As you know, yesterday Apple basically said that the Javascript/AJAX app is the way to do 3rd party app development on the iPhone. A lot of people have grumbled about this being too little, they want a *real* SDK. But it also sounds like they are going to provide access to on-board apps via a javascript API, making it possible to load a single web page that does a lot of very interesting things without really needing to continuously send messages back and forth to a web server. Another way of thinking of this is that it's possible to use some very simple development methodologies that require *no* knowledge of gtk, c, c++, scratchbox, busybox, etc. to create some very powerful, slick applications with quite sophisticated user interfaces. In particular, you could use the Maemo platform to create appliance- level functionality that completely hides the underlying general- purpose mechanism with just a web page. However, the current OS2007 has a couple of features that get in the way of being able to do this. First, the browser won't work unless you're connected to a network. Use Minimo, people say, and it will be ok. But I don't see that as a satisfying answer. Minimo is great, but it's not very stable, and it's not supported by Nokia. Furthermore, the Maemo browser supported offline use quite well under IT2006. Second, the browser has a new feature under IT2007 that it did not have in IT2006. It now nicely informs you of its progress in loading pages. In full screen mode, this causes a status bar to pop up each time you access a web page, either directly or via AJAX. That, in turn, causes the window size to change and the web page has to either adjust or things bounce around a bit while it's loading. This makes it harder to develop web-page apps that don't spook naive users. Also, if there were a standard way to access Maemo features directly from Javascript, the web-page apps could be made even better. Imagine how nice it would be to be able to get events from the buttons calling callbacks in your web-page app. Being able to launch a video directly javascript, being able to control music/audio playback, etc. would add to the experience. This could be done, I supposed with a javascript wrapper around some DBus code, or again, by making available an on-board http service that bridges you to an API. In the end, I think it's great that a lot of Linux/X-Windows apps just port to Maemo. But at the same time, I think there's a largely unexplored, new space that with a few tweaks could become a significant source of innovation. Allan On Jun 12, 2007, at 06:00, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You know about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html > > We have been putting more flesh into it at a platform level. We > will keep making each entry a link describing details about the > feature and facilitating focused discussion around it. > > At the end of the roadmap page there are instruction to submit your > own feature requests to be, if approved, roadmapped and developed. > We really want to see this process happening. There are some > platform related feature requests submitted in bugzilla, but most > of them are about end user features. We would like to improve the > maemo offer for developers by implementing good and well formulated > ideas received from the community. > > So please, if you have ideas for improvement have a look to the > procedure in the roadmap page and file our feature requests in > bugzilla. > > Quim > > -- Allan Doyle http://museum.mit.edu/mwow +1.781.433.2695 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Features to improve the platform
You know about http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html We have been putting more flesh into it at a platform level. We will keep making each entry a link describing details about the feature and facilitating focused discussion around it. At the end of the roadmap page there are instruction to submit your own feature requests to be, if approved, roadmapped and developed. We really want to see this process happening. There are some platform related feature requests submitted in bugzilla, but most of them are about end user features. We would like to improve the maemo offer for developers by implementing good and well formulated ideas received from the community. So please, if you have ideas for improvement have a look to the procedure in the roadmap page and file our feature requests in bugzilla. Quim ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
