Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Juha Yrjölä wrote: On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 13:53 +0100, ext Koen Kooi wrote: What's nokia's position on EABI[1]? At least this part of Nokia thinks that EABI is cool. It seems you have company*: http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2006/03/msg00058.html regards, Koen *pun intended -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFEK58bMkyGM64RGpERAnW3AKCMnxmEEy7GlPASKqLXtKYicyrA4gCfTzI9 Kfh63qQkSTfhWn04DNxN1i4= =3pxR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
On Monday 31 October 2005 14:36, Paul Mundt wrote: Some versions of the ARM9 support VFP, which allows for partial hardware FP support for some basic single and double precision opcodes, and traps for the rest (it however does not offer a IEEE754 compliant interface in hardware, and requires quite a bit of help from software to do so). OMAP 2420 supports this, OMAP 1710 does not. As such, we presently use in-kernel NWFPE. As I understand, trapping happens if you want the VFP to signal if it's results are inaccurate or non-IEEE. The logic appears to be, that for most users it is more important to have a fast fpu than high quality math results. It would need some more investigating to find out how bad the inaccuracies are, and if you can use it as the fpu for off-the-shelf software expecting IEEE semantics, or if it's usefullness is limited to code written specifically for it. From Debian/Alpha experiences, I would bet for the latter. Especially considering that pre-EV6 alpha fpu did not suck - it was just not perfectly IEEE compatible.. This is not necessarily true either, and is one of the bigger reasons for pushing EABI. It makes sense to use VFP for what it supports natively, most of the rest of it is better left to something like soft-float. Kernel FP emulation is slow by definition. Agreed. Even if VFP turns out to be really fast and usefull, most arm cpu's will still be fpuless for a long time from now. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Hello Devesh, Am Dienstag, den 01.11.2005, 11:39 +0200 schrieb Devesh Kothari: I am trying to get a How-To which should describe the multimedia architecture explained and how to write custom codec and how to integrate and install them. could you post your code ??? this could be quite useful or even start a How-To page on the Wiki I am going to post my code soon, once it has been cleaned up a bit. It's still in a highly experimental state, but now that playback is fluent, I can get the code in good shape. :) My program is not a codec but a player on its own, as it was originally just a proof-of-concept. I'm currently using libao for audio output, instead of the maemo multimedia architecture. Regards, Martin ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
--- Martin Grimme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have written a little program which can fluently play OGG Vorbis files on the device. This shows that OGG support is technically possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be implemented more efficient. That's cool. There has been some confusion on why there is no official OGG support. As far as I can tell, the situation is as follows (note: I'm not working for Nokia or any other such company, and I don't actually know any hidden, hard facts. Consider the following an educated guess) The lack of OGG is caused by two things. The time shortage has already been mentioned on this list. There have been semi-reliable rumors that DSP-accelerated OGG is now working somewhere in the vaults of Nokia. The other reason is a combination of lawyers and SW patents. As far as people can tell, there are no patents on OGG. But a company the size of Nokia can't rely on that. They have to check and then double check for themselves, which is a slow process. Their lawyers simply will not allow an unchecked release, because otherwise some IP poachers could sue them for millions of dollars due to patent infringement. Given the current (sorry) state of patent laws, this is unfortunately the way it _has_ to go. Anyway, I'm fairly confident that the next (or the one after that) SW release will support OGG. Until then I'll just use this proggie to play my OGGs. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 13:53 +0100, ext Koen Kooi wrote: What's nokia's position on EABI[1]? At least this part of Nokia thinks that EABI is cool. Cheers, Juha ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Frantisek Dufka wrote: Hello, N770 has TI OMAP 1710 see documentation here http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/omap5912.html#technicaldocuments Seems a good starting point. Kind regards jan Wildeboer ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul Mundt schrieb: On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 07:59:46PM +0100, Nils Faerber wrote: I am quite sure that the ARM9 does not support FP at all. What is IMHO supported are some FP traps that would trap into kernel or other FP software implementations. But that dies not speed up anything. There is to my knowledge no embedded CPU that has hw FP built in. [...] As far as embedded CPUs supporting hardware FP, this is a ridiculous statement. Almost every other embedded architecture out there besides ARM supports IEEE754 in hardware. Some opt for something more like the VFP approach, where most of the heavy and frequently used opcodes are handled, and the rest is left to software. Well, then maybe my experience is limited here. I had several ARM based platforms (no ARM9 up to now, admittedly) as well as embedded PowerPC and MIPS. None of those had FP and had not options for it. At least to my experience lets say, hardware FP is uncommon... An integer based decoder on MPU side would certainly be the most sensible approach. Sensible in what way? Concerning time/effort effectiveness? Then this is probably correct. Concerning the 770 the DSP based solution should improve device performance since the MPU would be left for applications instead of decoding. Or do you think that the DSP is in general not able to handle OGG? If yes it would be interesting to know why. Cheers nils faerber - -- kernel concepts Tel: +49-271-771091-12 Dreisbachstr. 24 Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57250 Netphen Mob: +49-176-21024535 - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDZkc3JXeIURG1qHgRAp8cAKCRSsua4ddyZOdQcloZa9UI6l3ifACgwyyF zCSKXi/KkbS5oFc46ql4Wo0= =q3w6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Martin, The initial release does use the DSP quite extensively, just not for OGG. This is all documented at http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net. Ed Martin, does the N770 have a programmer's reference manual? I would like to learn more about the characteristics of the Digital Signal Processor (DSP), part #, manufacturer, etc., and how it is integrated into the N770. From the discussion on this list it would appear that even though the initial release of the N770 software from Nokia will not make use of the DSP, that it has been designed into the product in order to provide signal processing offload for audio at least, and perhaps video/graphics as well. Best Regards, John Holmblad Televerage International GSEC Gold,GCWN Gold,GGSC-0100,NSA-IAM,NSA-IEM (H) 703 620 0672 (M) 703 407 2278 (F) 703 620 5388 primary email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] backup email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't really underand why they did not include it in the default distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format. I am looking excited foreward to test the first version! Personally I do not care which project is used as basis as long as: - The package does not use too much flash space when installed ( 3mb or so) - Can handle playlists - Would be great to have: volume management using the dedicated buttons ;-) lg Clemens I have written a little program which can fluently play OGG Vorbis files on the device. This shows that OGG support is technically possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be implemented more efficient. My CPU-only implementation causes about 20% CPU load for playing in CD quality. I'm going to add a little GUI and provide an installer package for my OGG player soon. Are you using GStreamer OGG or what? If not, why not? A oggsink, in the same way mp3sink acts, would rock! -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri --- Computer Engineer 2001 - UNICAMP GPSL - Grupo Pro Software Livre Cell..: +55 (19) 9165 8010 Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ#: 17249123 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: gsbarbieri GPG: 0xB640E1A2 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Hello, Am Sonntag, den 30.10.2005, 01:28 -0200 schrieb Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri: Are you using GStreamer OGG or what? If not, why not? A oggsink, in the same way mp3sink acts, would rock! Currently, I'm not using gstreamer. My Ogg player was just a proof of concept to see whether the Nokia 770 is fast enough to decode Ogg Vorbis or not. Of course it is not fast enough for the standard Ogg Vorbis decoder. But there exists an integer-only version called Tremor (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/) which is usable on the device. The best way, however, would be utilizing the DSP for decoding in order to decrease CPU load (constantly 20% is a lot and drains battery). The DSP is already used for decoding MP3 and MPEG4, so Nokia should be able to provide Ogg support as well. The gstreamer guys also tested Ogg on the device, but by using the standard plugin, which is too slow. Currently there is no plugin which uses Tremor, but Christian Schaller wrote in his blog that they will be working on it. Regards, Martin ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Le dimanche 30 octobre 2005 à 11:10 +, Clemens Eisserer a écrit : Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't really underand why they did not include it in the default distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format. I am looking excited foreward to test the first version! It is quite simple : Nokia folks explained it during their presentation at GUADEC : they didn't had time to implement both MP3 and OGG, so they decided to do MP3 support first, because it is still the most used audio format by average users. Same idea for video, which is forcing N770 to use both Real Helix and Gstreamer in the video player, because they needed Real suppport. Of course, Nokia developers really wanted to support open formats but those were not a priority, which is quite understandable when you think they want to do a successful product for everybody, not only free software geeks.. -- Frédéric Crozat - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Martin Grimme kirjoitti 30.10.2005 kello 13.21: The gstreamer guys also tested Ogg on the device, but by using the standard plugin, which is too slow. Currently there is no plugin which uses Tremor, but Christian Schaller wrote in his blog that they will be working on it. Hi, I think there is an ivorbis plugin for gstreamer 0.8 series (used in the 770) already. If the plugin cross-compiles, having ARM-side ogg support might only be a matter of modifying the configuration accordingly (such as registering the plugin, a new mimetype and an appropriate pipeline). BR, Lassi ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Grimme wrote: Hi, Am Sonntag, den 30.10.2005, 11:10 + schrieb Clemens Eisserer: Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't really underand why they did not include it in the default distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format. I am looking excited foreward to test the first version! I think the reason why Nokia didn't support Ogg until now was that the standard Ogg decoder heavily relies on floating point operations and is thus way too slow on the Nokia 770. The alternative integer-only decoder Tremor doesn't have a gstreamer plugin yet. Nonsense, gst-plugin-ivorbis has been around for a while now. The only problem is that the gstreamer people forget to apply small API tweaks every time gstreamer gets improved. Cristian has mentioned (http://blogs.gnome.org/view/uraeus/2005/10/28/0) that they will port ivorbis to gstreamer 0.9. regards, Koen Personally I do not care which project is used as basis as long as: - The package does not use too much flash space when installed ( 3mb or so) - Can handle playlists - Would be great to have: volume management using the dedicated buttons ;-) I have a player like this in mind. :) But I also wouldn't mind Nokia porting the Tremor decoder to the DSP. ;) Regards, Martin ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDZL4yMkyGM64RGpERAn5fAJwNjWVNgWtt8PqA2p6iJd7JIZ6LnwCgrDFv Uf8IOgCJmYUG7l40tZ1ufc8= =ehRU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Zeeshan Ali wrote: Hey buddies, Nonsense, gst-plugin-ivorbis has been around for a while now. The only problem is that the gstreamer people forget to apply small API tweaks every time gstreamer gets improved. Cristian has mentioned (http://blogs.gnome.org/view/uraeus/2005/10/28/0) that they will port ivorbis to gstreamer 0.9. 'small' API tweaks? Are you familliar with the changes between 0.8 and 0.9 for plugin writers? I was getting at 0.8. The ivorbis plugin doesn't play nice with playbin, while other plugins do (the mad one). This is currently stopping GPE from having reliable ogg support on arm based handhelds. The main point of my reply was: there is an ivorbis plugin, so stop saying it doesn't exist. regards, Koen -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDZN6BMkyGM64RGpERAuHqAKC3kaTKsM30A8btTp51/VQms3dfhACfbsUN tQV3F1IVU3aD5Sg7D125HGs= =vDfV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
Hello, Of course it is not fast enough for the standard Ogg Vorbis decoder. But there exists an integer-only version called Tremor (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/) which is usable on the device. What I wonder is that it seems FP is really slow on the Nokia770, although the ARM9 built in seems to support FP operations in hw. I am just a bit curious about that, any ideas why its still that slow? Take the fp-instructions that much cycles? lg Clemens ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Clemens Eisserer schrieb: Hello, Of course it is not fast enough for the standard Ogg Vorbis decoder. But there exists an integer-only version called Tremor (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/) which is usable on the device. What I wonder is that it seems FP is really slow on the Nokia770, although the ARM9 built in seems to support FP operations in hw. I am just a bit curious about that, any ideas why its still that slow? Take the fp-instructions that much cycles? I am quite sure that the ARM9 does not support FP at all. What is IMHO supported are some FP traps that would trap into kernel or other FP software implementations. But that dies not speed up anything. There is to my knowledge no embedded CPU that has hw FP built in. All software FP implementations are of course very CPU intensive. You have to calculate the FP result in software which takes several hundred cycles while in hardware it would only take just a few cycles. So FP on emebdded devices will probably always be dead slow - at least for the next future. Concerning OGG the Vorbis people took integer only into account from the very early beginning of the development. As a result the finaly codec was quite easy to be optimised for integer, the result is Tremor which was released just a few weeks after final OGG/Vorbis release. Concerning the 770 the integer version could be a first start for having OGG capabilities at all. The OMAP DSP device is open to a certain extend. The tools to develop code for it are freely available, some documentation is too. The DSP in the 770 is controlled by the also free DSP gateway project. So there is no big reason why there cannot be a free DSP OGG code any time in the near future. I guess on of the major problems here is that developing code for DSPs is not very well known in the open source community... on the other that could be a very interesting software project ;) lg Clemens Cheers nils faerber - -- kernel concepts Tel: +49-271-771091-12 Dreisbachstr. 24 Fax: +49-271-771091-19 D-57250 Netphen Mob: +49-176-21024535 - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDZRgiJXeIURG1qHgRAgnvAKDWjNCxVnKIkQ42FGAtWt/oB5/5ngCg2Xyx miia0f67DpZq9NVzTzRp9l0= =63mu -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
