Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:38 -0400, ext Mike Lococo wrote: You mention several repositories that don't belong to us [Nokia]. We don't respond of them. We can't and won't stop developers from creating their own repositories. Maybe someone can monitor intersting and widely used packages moving it to the extras repo notifying package developer or offering him/her to put package there. It's much more sensible for the developers to simply put their packages in the official repos in the first place (although if you want to volunteer to move packages into extras no one will stop you). I would say some developers wouldn't be happy if someone else put their packages into extras. If they want to put them there they would just do that. I can see at least one reason of that: lack of download statistics for packages downloaded from extras. For example for me personally it's not a big problem to put at least ssh, xterm, and similar often used packages to extras. Each time I do the upgrade I have to remember where did I get them from, or to go to maemo downloads and look for them there. Instead of it it can be just couple of clicks in AI if all those packages were in extra. Most of developers from this list have the same filing, I believe. Probably it's time to just make a list of those 20 packages and put them into extras? Also it would be nice to make some criteria for packages to go there, at least simple voting at the beginning. The problem is that the repos are frustrating to access and use, so folks are throwing up their own instead. This one I don't understand at all, sorry. What frustration are you talking about? For those developers who has garage accounts it's just matter of sending one e-mail asking for access to extras. What kind of frustration do you see here? It's an often discussed problem on the developers list, although I don't recall that any clear conclusion has been reached beyond Nokia is working on making the repos better, or that any clear timeline has been laid out for improvements. If it's about extras I think it's 100% community issue. Extras was given to community long time ago, but people didn't manage to organize more or less working practice to put their packages there. They prefer to have their own repositories or just put packages everywhere for some unknown reason. -- Ed Bartosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nokia-M/Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
2007/7/20, Tomas Junnonen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Integrate it with the garage project page! When creating a release and uploading files to the project, there should be a checkbox on the release page for automagically pushing the packages to the repository. If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Witness how few people bother listing their software on downloads.maemo.org compared to the large number of new releases on Garage (which is another discussion, creating a new release on Garage should update the downloads catalog automatically). I definitly second that! Regards, Tomas ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
ext Ed Bartosh wrote: The problem is that the repos are frustrating to access and use, so folks are throwing up their own instead. This one I don't understand at all, sorry. What frustration are you talking about? For those developers who has garage accounts it's just matter of sending one e-mail asking for access to extras. What kind of frustration do you see here? It's an often discussed problem on the developers list, although I don't recall that any clear conclusion has been reached beyond Nokia is working on making the repos better, or that any clear timeline has been laid out for improvements. If it's about extras I think it's 100% community issue. Extras was given to community long time ago, but people didn't manage to organize more or less working practice to put their packages there. They prefer to have their own repositories or just put packages everywhere for some unknown reason. I think at least partially it's because there's no carrot being offered to the developers. If the Extras repository was included in the Application Manager by default, although disabled (as Multiverse is in Ubuntu, you can show a disclaimer when enabling it), people would be more likely to upload to it: - It creates awareness of the repository. Outside this mailing list few developers are likely to even know of the existence of this repository. If the repository is visible in the manager you can Google for instructions on how to get your own software there. - It gives the developer a wider audience to distribute to than just having his .install file on his project page. Plus it's just cool to be able to install your software out of the box in a few clicks. - Without some official blessing Extras is just-another-repo from developer perspective, with the added downside of not being fully under the developer's control. The process for delivering to the Extras repository could also be streamlined: - In my opinion there's a don't call us, we'll call you vibe in the instructions on Garage. - Integrate it with the garage project page! When creating a release and uploading files to the project, there should be a checkbox on the release page for automagically pushing the packages to the repository. If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Witness how few people bother listing their software on downloads.maemo.org compared to the large number of new releases on Garage (which is another discussion, creating a new release on Garage should update the downloads catalog automatically). Regards, Tomas ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
Tomas Junnonen wrote: I think at least partially it's because there's no carrot being offered to the developers. If the Extras repository was included in the Application Manager by default, although disabled (as Multiverse is in Ubuntu, you can show a disclaimer when enabling it), people would be more likely to upload to it: One extra carrot could be automatically re-installing (with the co-operation of backup tool and application-installer) all apps installed from maemo extras after reflashing device. - Without some official blessing Extras is just-another-repo from developer perspective, with the added downside of not being fully under the developer's control. This is a important point as well. If someone uploads crap or there is any other problem with maemo extras, there needs to be someone who can be contacted who can fix the issue right away. No contact via bugzilla or anonymous role person crap. - Integrate it with the garage project page! When creating a release and uploading files to the project, there should be a checkbox on the release page for automagically pushing the packages to the repository. If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Witness how few people bother listing their software on downloads.maemo.org compared to the large number of new releases on Garage (which is another discussion, creating a new release on Garage should update the downloads catalog automatically). Very very good idea. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
Just a quickie while I'm writing a longer response: - maemo unstable repository. Let's talk about this, but it is a discussion that needs to be done with the developers and at a development level. The value of the distro relies on the use upstream and other third party developers would make of it. Users alone can try and test fresh software via partial releases, like we have done this week. The effort that implies to launch and maintain a distro is in a different magnitude, and I'm afraid this effort is not sustainable with power users alone. Let's move this discussion to an own thread in maemo-developers. - Improving extras repository. Maybe I'm wrong, but the process to get your packages in this repository is far less complex that the process you need to go through in order to get a similar access to the Debian or Ubuntu repos. Basically you need to get your .deb packages and .install files ready and you need to sound trustful when requesting upload permissions. The problem is probably elsewhere (you have made already some very good points) and we are happy investing time and resources fixing the problems i.e. providing more automation and integration between garage.m.o, extras repository and downloads.m.o. This is another discussion that needs to be held at a developer level, better at maemo-developers with own thread. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: RTCom - SIP Service
ext Larry Battraw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As an aside, has anyone had their Application manager break after trying to to install RTCom? I managed to get RTCom installed manually via apt-get/dpkg but now whenever I run the Application manager the window will appear almost instantly, titled Application manager, and sit forever. That usually means that the backend process does not start up and the frontend is waiting for it to respond. That's quite bad since you basically can't debug the situation without help from the frontend. It's a known bug that has been fixed in more recent versions of the AM. The backend has quite low requirements for a successful startup. Usually, sudo has some problems. Try this as user: $ sudo /usr/libexec/apt-worker apt-worker: wrong invocation If you see the error message wrong invocation from apt-worker, it has been started successfully. One common problem with sudo is that /etc/sudoers has the wrong permissions: $ sudo /usr/libexec/apt-worker sudo: /etc/sudoers is mode 0640, should be 0440 Maybe some of the RTCom packages messes with /etc/sudoers? Doing a strace results in the attached log Thanks for the strace! It was only for maemo-invoker and not for the hildon-application-manager, but I appreciate the effort! :-) Debugging can be a bitch on the maemo platform... :) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 12:08 +0300, ext Tomas Junnonen wrote: ext Ed Bartosh wrote: The problem is that the repos are frustrating to access and use, so folks are throwing up their own instead. This one I don't understand at all, sorry. What frustration are you talking about? For those developers who has garage accounts it's just matter of sending one e-mail asking for access to extras. What kind of frustration do you see here? It's an often discussed problem on the developers list, although I don't recall that any clear conclusion has been reached beyond Nokia is working on making the repos better, or that any clear timeline has been laid out for improvements. If it's about extras I think it's 100% community issue. Extras was given to community long time ago, but people didn't manage to organize more or less working practice to put their packages there. They prefer to have their own repositories or just put packages everywhere for some unknown reason. I think at least partially it's because there's no carrot being offered to the developers. If the Extras repository was included in the Application Manager by default, although disabled (as Multiverse is in Ubuntu, you can show a disclaimer when enabling it), people would be more likely to upload to it: - It creates awareness of the repository. Outside this mailing list few developers are likely to even know of the existence of this repository. If the repository is visible in the manager you can Google for instructions on how to get your own software there. I'd look at it from community point of view. If we want to have one more line in /etc/sources.list or in some other configuration file why we should wait for Nokia to do that? Is it so hard to make some package for this and put its .install file somewhere on garage? - It gives the developer a wider audience to distribute to than just having his .install file on his project page. Plus it's just cool to be able to install your software out of the box in a few clicks. Exactly! - Without some official blessing Extras is just-another-repo from developer perspective, with the added downside of not being fully under the developer's control. What I mean is that nothing prevents community to make it 'the repo'. The only two things are missing: clear criteria to get there and team of uploaders or even one uploader. Then if it works it can be improved easily. As a start point simple voting system should be enough, I believe. I can help with uploads, if needed. The process for delivering to the Extras repository could also be streamlined: - In my opinion there's a don't call us, we'll call you vibe in the instructions on Garage. It can also be changed even if it's true. I had no such impression and I've been using extras for about a year already. And I'm not alone, people who cares are using it. - Integrate it with the garage project page! When creating a release and uploading files to the project, there should be a checkbox on the release page for automagically pushing the packages to the repository. I wouldn't consider it as a showstopper. I like the idea, but it looks like improvement to me. We shouldn't wait for that to start using extras. If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Yeah, I can see that. And you know what? It's not because Nokia not doing this and that, it's just because of people who don't bother. As a result we have this mess with tons of repositories and .install files instead of one extra. And we also have users, who have to deal with this mess. -- Ed Bartosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nokia-M/Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
ext Tomas Junnonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think at least partially it's because there's no carrot being offered to the developers. If the Extras repository was included in the Application Manager by default, although disabled (as Multiverse is in Ubuntu, you can show a disclaimer when enabling it), people would be more likely to upload to it: Yes. I will include it in the default configuration for the next IT OS release. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: RTcomm with freephonie.net SIP account?
Do you have a GoogleTalk or other account also setup? Try disabling that. I found that if 1 account was connected the icon might still show solid green, even though the other account is having trouble. I've now removed my GoogleTalk account: my SIP account is the only one on the N800 but I still can't ring any phone :-/ If it still shows you're authenticating ok when it's the only active account, I would double check things like outbound proxy, STUN, etc. Have you tried receiving calls, per chance? If you had it working with Gizmo it should work with the same settings in RTcomm... unless of course you need TLS or http proxy, which aren't yet supported. Yes, the authenticating is OK. I've tried to call my SIP on the N800 from my mobile: the N800 rings but when I answer the call, my mobile does not detect I've taken the call and I finally get the voicebox :-/ I don't know exactly what are the specs of my SIP account on the freephonie.net domain. What I know is that it works w/o any problem using Gizmo on the N800 but I'm not able to know what Gizmo use as configuration for my account (it is configured as 2nd account). Finally I've removed Gizmo from my N800 to prevent from any incompatibility: not better :-( Any other idea? TIA. -- Laurent, Nantes (FR) - http://blog.lmartin.fr Apple PowerBook 12 Treo 650 (unlocked GSM) Nokia Internet Tablet N800 ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: RTCom - SIP Service
On 7/20/07, Marius Vollmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Larry Battraw [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As an aside, has anyone had their Application manager break after trying to to install RTCom? I managed to get RTCom installed manually via apt-get/dpkg but now whenever I run the Application manager the window will appear almost instantly, titled Application manager, and sit forever. That usually means that the backend process does not start up and the frontend is waiting for it to respond. That's quite bad since you basically can't debug the situation without help from the frontend. It's a known bug that has been fixed in more recent versions of the AM. Are these versions available in Sardine or somewhere else? The backend has quite low requirements for a successful startup. Usually, sudo has some problems. Try this as user: $ sudo /usr/libexec/apt-worker apt-worker: wrong invocation If you see the error message wrong invocation from apt-worker, it has been started successfully. Yep, that is exactly what it printed, so no problem with the /etc/sudoers file; I verified that by hand as well. -r--r-1 root root 2316 Jul 19 09:02 /etc/sudoers Doing a strace results in the attached log Thanks for the strace! It was only for maemo-invoker and not for the hildon-application-manager, but I appreciate the effort! :-) Debugging can be a bitch on the maemo platform... :) Sigh :-) I figured it was awfully short for what was getting kicked off. I did a copy of the root FS to the internal SD card to boot from and now it works for whatever reason, regardless of whether I boot from flash or SD. Very strange. I had already tried rebooting before so I'm unsure of what has changed. Thanks- Larry ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
Hello, On 7/20/07, Tomas Junnonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ed Bartosh wrote: I'd look at it from community point of view. If we want to have one more line in /etc/sources.list or in some other configuration file why we should wait for Nokia to do that? Is it so hard to make some package for this and put its .install file somewhere on garage? Defaults matter. By enabling extras through an install file on garage you're limiting yourself to the hardcore crowd who knows to visit garage in the first place. That's not to say the community couldn't step up to make extras The Repo right now without Nokia's help. I'm just saying the incentive for doing so is weak at the moment. The repo is not without help. I am helping anyone who runs into trouble. It is also me who invites people every now and then, but invitation does not come just by asking. The person in question should have a proven track record of Debian packaging. I usually check previous packages before clicking the button in garage to send out the invitation. What I mean is that nothing prevents community to make it 'the repo' The only two things are missing: clear criteria to get there and team of uploaders or even one uploader. Then if it works it can be improved easily. As a start point simple voting system should be enough, I believe. I can help with uploads, if needed. Clear criteria and a community vetting process for acceptance are the key points, and in my opinion the way to go about implementing this is to integrate it tightly with Garage: - Make requesting repository access a function of the existing project administrative web-interface, not emailing some dude. This is among the plans, but right now it is only me who is hacking on garage and on the other hand trying to manage other site related development activities. GForge is open source, I am more than willing to check and accept contributions, such as a plugin. I don't have enough time unfortunately. - Requesting access through the interface creates an entry in a ticket tracker, where it can be voted and commented on. Access is granted (or not) when a repo admin resolves the ticket. Great idea, contributions welcome. If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Yeah, I can see that. And you know what? It's not because Nokia not doing this and that, it's just because of people who don't bother. As a result we have this mess with tons of repositories and .install files instead of one extra. And we also have users, who have to deal with this mess. There will always be people who just don't bother. By creating incentives for participating (larger audience, out-of-box experience) and at the same time lowering the entry bar (automation, well defined process) eventually you would reach critical mass and extras becomes the first choice for a developer seeking a distribution channel. I wish you or others who care help me out. As said there is nobody atm who could hack on garage. I am more than happy if somebody joins and we could share the work (and joy). Regards, Tomas Br, ferenc ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
Ed Bartosh wrote: I think at least partially it's because there's no carrot being offered to the developers. If the Extras repository was included in the Application Manager by default, although disabled (as Multiverse is in Ubuntu, you can show a disclaimer when enabling it), people would be more likely to upload to it: - It creates awareness of the repository. Outside this mailing list few developers are likely to even know of the existence of this repository. If the repository is visible in the manager you can Google for instructions on how to get your own software there. I'd look at it from community point of view. If we want to have one more line in /etc/sources.list or in some other configuration file why we should wait for Nokia to do that? Is it so hard to make some package for this and put its .install file somewhere on garage? Defaults matter. By enabling extras through an install file on garage you're limiting yourself to the hardcore crowd who knows to visit garage in the first place. That's not to say the community couldn't step up to make extras The Repo right now without Nokia's help. I'm just saying the incentive for doing so is weak at the moment. What I mean is that nothing prevents community to make it 'the repo'. The only two things are missing: clear criteria to get there and team of uploaders or even one uploader. Then if it works it can be improved easily. As a start point simple voting system should be enough, I believe. I can help with uploads, if needed. Clear criteria and a community vetting process for acceptance are the key points, and in my opinion the way to go about implementing this is to integrate it tightly with Garage: - Make requesting repository access a function of the existing project administrative web-interface, not emailing some dude. - Requesting access through the interface creates an entry in a ticket tracker, where it can be voted and commented on. Access is granted (or not) when a repo admin resolves the ticket. If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Yeah, I can see that. And you know what? It's not because Nokia not doing this and that, it's just because of people who don't bother. As a result we have this mess with tons of repositories and .install files instead of one extra. And we also have users, who have to deal with this mess. There will always be people who just don't bother. By creating incentives for participating (larger audience, out-of-box experience) and at the same time lowering the entry bar (automation, well defined process) eventually you would reach critical mass and extras becomes the first choice for a developer seeking a distribution channel. Regards, Tomas ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 15:12 +0300, Tomas Junnonen wrote: Ed Bartosh wrote: I think at least partially it's because there's no carrot being offered to the developers. If the Extras repository was included in the Application Manager by default, although disabled (as Multiverse is in Ubuntu, you can show a disclaimer when enabling it), people would be more likely to upload to it: - It creates awareness of the repository. Outside this mailing list few developers are likely to even know of the existence of this repository. If the repository is visible in the manager you can Google for instructions on how to get your own software there. I'd look at it from community point of view. If we want to have one more line in /etc/sources.list or in some other configuration file why we should wait for Nokia to do that? Is it so hard to make some package for this and put its .install file somewhere on garage? Defaults matter. By enabling extras through an install file on garage you're limiting yourself to the hardcore crowd who knows to visit garage in the first place. I agree with this. But considering the fact that we already have more than 3,5 thousands registered garage users it's not bad to start with them just to prove the concept. Of course it's much harder than just sitting and blaming Nokia :) That's not to say the community couldn't step up to make extras The Repo right now without Nokia's help. I'm just saying the incentive for doing so is weak at the moment. What I mean is that nothing prevents community to make it 'the repo'. The only two things are missing: clear criteria to get there and team of uploaders or even one uploader. Then if it works it can be improved easily. As a start point simple voting system should be enough, I believe. I can help with uploads, if needed. Clear criteria and a community vetting process for acceptance are the key points, and in my opinion the way to go about implementing this is to integrate it tightly with Garage: - Make requesting repository access a function of the existing project administrative web-interface, not emailing some dude. - Requesting access through the interface creates an entry in a ticket tracker, where it can be voted and commented on. Access is granted (or not) when a repo admin resolves the ticket. Sounds like a plan. Any volunteers? If there's any additional hoops to jump through people just aren't going to bother. Yeah, I can see that. And you know what? It's not because Nokia not doing this and that, it's just because of people who don't bother. As a result we have this mess with tons of repositories and .install files instead of one extra. And we also have users, who have to deal with this mess. There will always be people who just don't bother. By creating incentives for participating (larger audience, out-of-box experience) and at the same time lowering the entry bar (automation, well defined process) eventually you would reach critical mass and extras becomes the first choice for a developer seeking a distribution channel. I can't say for others but for me personally incentives are obvious: - ability to install my favorite packages in one click in AI or one run of apt instead of looking for them and dealing with possible installation issues. - having one place for trusted working software which is known to work and tested by others - easy upgrades - hapiness of users Isn't it enough? It seems that it isn't and I still don't understand why. -- Ed Bartosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nokia-M/Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 03:12:47PM +0300, Tomas Junnonen wrote: Defaults matter. By enabling extras through an install file on garage you're limiting yourself to the hardcore crowd who knows to visit garage in the first place. True, but we don't need to wait until the next OS/Firmware refresh to change the default. It would be a good thing to do, but that's probably at least 2-3 months away, no? (And I expect/hope/fear/anticipate eagerly that there will only be 2-3 releases before some new hardware refresh moving us from the 770 to the N800 to maybe the N850, right? :-) What about highlighting some really cool community package that would be of use to the general user population, not just the power users[1], and putting it in extras, and then plugging it on the Tableteer web site? Then when people install it, they wlil get the extra repository automatically added to sources list. And in general, the goal really should be to encourage community members to make their packages polished enough so they *are* worthy to be published and plugged on Tableteer. After all, in the open source community that kind of publicity and reputation capital of getting plugged on an official site is a really big motivator. So if there were standards published about what it would take to do that, I think it would make a huge difference in terms of that carrot. And that was Nokia's original dream of the Internet Tablet anyway, right --- to build a platform and to get the community to help make it much more useful? (At least, that's what I remember from chatting with the Nokia folks at that really nice shindig in Tremezzo, Italy. :-) - Ted [1] Although given the lack of a decent Calendar/PDA application and better cellphone integration of the Contacts application, I suspect a large number of the regular users of the N800 *are* power users; right now I have to carry around my Cell phone, my palm pilot, *and* my N-800, and when I can't carry around so many toys, guess which one gets left at home? Hint: it's not the cell phone. And until Nokia figures out how to implement decent PDA functionality, I'm still going to be carrying my Palm pilot around. I paid $$$ for the E70 and was *very* disappointed in the quality of the PDA applications; why is it that 12-year-old Palm technology still better than anything Nokia can put out over a decade later? I've occasionally considered ditching the E70 and replacing it with a Treo, just to cut down on the number of units I have to carry around. If I could get a Treo (or something with Palm Pilot level of functionality) in a E70 form-factor, I'd be ditching the E70 so fast it would make your head spin. And if the Palm Foleo has better PDA applications, it might seriouslly threaten the N800; after all, it has built-in keyboard and is only $100 more ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On 7/20/07, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: why is it that 12-year-old Palm technology still better than anything Nokia can put out over a decade later? And if the Palm Foleo has better PDA applications, it might seriouslly threaten the N800; after all, it has built-in keyboard and is only $100 more I think I can answer this one (and if I am wrong, please correct me): the Nokia Tablets were never designed to be PDAs. They have some PDA capabilities thanks to, if my memory is correct, GPE (or something similar), but they were *not* intended as PDAs. You can probably plow a field with a Ferrari, but it would be better to use a tractor. And in a decade, Ferraris will still be mediocre tools to plow fields. I personally have no use whatsoever for PDA applications and I am quite happy that Nokia did not even try to go down that road. They created a fantastic piece of hardware and a rather good OS to run it. Then they added some applications and the rest is up to us, the community. And it seems that the community does not have PDA functionality high up its list of priorities and I understand that. I do not mean to be critical, but you might stick to Palm for PDA like applications and not expect Internet Tablets to ever even try to match them. Cheers! Andrei ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On 7/20/07, andrei raevsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally have no use whatsoever for PDA applications and I am quite happy that Nokia did not even try to go down that road. They created a fantastic piece of hardware and a rather good OS to run it. Then they added some applications and the rest is up to us, the community. And it seems that the community does not have PDA functionality high up its list of priorities and I understand that. I do not mean to be critical, but you might stick to Palm for PDA like applications and not expect Internet Tablets to ever even try to match them. The community *has* tried to do calendar and contacts applications; off the top of my head: * GPE Suite's (calendar, contacts, todo) * Opened Hand's Dates and Contacts * Winzig * DejaPim ...and probably a few others. But decent PIM applications (see Palm OS or EPOC) are fairly involved, and these disparate efforts have had no consolidated resource and leadership. Currently, with the Maemo community so disparate, Nokia is best placed to provide that leadership. As you say, it's a fantastic piece of hardware (video bandwidth notwithstanding), but it's only marketing which makes it an Internet Tablet rather than high-end PDA or palmtop computer (if I were in an uncharitable mood, I'd point out that it's not the RSS reader or email client which makes it an Internet Tablet ;-)). My phone doesn't advertise itself as a PDA, but it has a calendar, a countdown timer and decent contacts management. Various people working at Nokia have expressed the opinion its PIM functions should be adequate for my needs. It's not: the screen is too small and the data entry is crap. The pragmatic point has also been made: *every* review of the 770/N800 has mentioned the lack of PDA-like functionality (whatever that is taken to mean), if that results in a slightly more negative review, it *will* cost additional sales. Presumably, at the moment Nokia Marketing have decided that the cost of development is greater than the cost of the lost sales. Ted's made the consumer point: it's one of practicality, if I need an MP3 player, PDA, phone and Internet Tablet; there will be times where one or more has to stay behind. If I can manage one day without my N800, why not two, four, a week, a month? Once it falls into disuse, the community dies. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 04:03:33PM +0100, Andrew Flegg wrote: The community *has* tried to do calendar and contacts applications; off the top of my head: * GPE Suite's (calendar, contacts, todo) * Opened Hand's Dates and Contacts * Winzig * DejaPim ...and probably a few others. But decent PIM applications (see Palm OS or EPOC) are fairly involved, and these disparate efforts have had no consolidated resource and leadership. Currently, with the Maemo community so disparate, Nokia is best placed to provide that leadership. And in fact, the problem is that one of them haven't gone ahead of the others. If one of them were easy to extend, was 90% of the way there, and had an open contribution model, it would probably rapidly accelerate ahead of the others. But it's hard to *make* that happen. Open source communty is an organic process; it takes time for it to develop; but once it does, the rate of change can take off very, very, rapidly. As you say, it's a fantastic piece of hardware (video bandwidth notwithstanding), but it's only marketing which makes it an Internet Tablet rather than high-end PDA or palmtop computer (if I were in an uncharitable mood, I'd point out that it's not the RSS reader or email client which makes it an Internet Tablet ;-)). I've always suspected that the Internet Tablet moniker was just an excuse for the fact that Nokia didn't have the budget to implement a decent set of PDA apps or a decent off-line RSS reader which could suck down entire web pages when you're off line, and then allow you to read them when you're on an airplane, ala my Advogato reader on my Palm. (Again, why is it that I am choosing to take my 12-year old technology gadget instead of my N800 all the time? Maybe because it got a lot of things Just Right? And for people who point out that Advogato is a commercial application, I would pay $40/year for a decent RSS feed reader, as I do with Advogato to get the advanced service, and I would pay $40 for a decent calendar program, as I would with Datebk3/4/5, and I would pay $40 for a decent addressbook application that was feature-compatible with the Palm. Unfortunately the ISV community for the N800 hasn't happened yet like it has for the Palm.) My phone doesn't advertise itself as a PDA, but it has a calendar, a countdown timer and decent contacts management. Various people working at Nokia have expressed the opinion its PIM functions should be adequate for my needs. It's not: the screen is too small and the data entry is crap. The way my cell phone displays contact information is also crap, and it doesn't have good searching capabilities. In addition, the calendar program doesn't display multiple overlapping entries well, nor does it support repeating entries. Again, Nokia needs to look at what Datebk3, or even the original Datebook application from Palm had 12 years ago, before they try to claim that what they have is adequate. It's not even close. But that's not the N800 team's fault. The pragmatic point has also been made: *every* review of the 770/N800 has mentioned the lack of PDA-like functionality (whatever that is taken to mean), if that results in a slightly more negative review, it *will* cost additional sales. Presumably, at the moment Nokia Marketing have decided that the cost of development is greater than the cost of the lost sales. Yep. The reviews also generally refer to it as a toy, because as *just* as a web tablet, it's not compelling enough for someone to spend $399. Techheads buy it because of the possibilities, but to be honest there hasn't been enough useful apps for me to pack it most of the time when I go out. I bring just my phone and my PDA, and that's it. Or if I'm going to bring more, I'll probably bring my X41 laptop, suspended so I have the same kind of instant on that the N800 has, with a 12 display and much faster ability to execute javascript for those Web 2.0 sites. Ted's made the consumer point: it's one of practicality, if I need an MP3 player, PDA, phone and Internet Tablet; there will be times where one or more has to stay behind. If I can manage one day without my N800, why not two, four, a week, a month? Once it falls into disuse, the community dies. The other problem is that even when I bring it along with me, and people see it and ask me about the N800, I have to grimace and say, it's a neat toy, but Because in all honesty, it's hard for me to plug something when it's missing what I consider to be basic functionality. If an Internet Tablet doesn't replace my PDA, but is defined as something that is *missing* a decent calendar, and *missing* a decent contact database, it's not very useful. (And memo to the Nokia marketing department: my honest assessment, which includes the hopes that someday it will get the killer apps that it needs, has probably cost them at least a half-dozen sales so far. And if there are enough people who feel the same as I do --- and
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
andrei raevsky wrote: I personally have no use whatsoever for PDA applications and I am quite happy that Nokia did not even try to go down that road. They created a fantastic piece of hardware and a rather good OS to run it. Then they added some applications and the rest is up to us, the community. And it seems that the community does not have PDA functionality high up its list of priorities and I understand that. I do not mean to be critical, but you might stick to Palm for PDA like applications and not expect Internet Tablets to ever even try to match them. While you might not have need of some PDA functions, others might. Given that it's so easy to install software, why not simply make it available for those who want it? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On 7/20/07, James Knott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: andrei raevsky wrote: I personally have no use whatsoever for PDA applications and I am quite happy that Nokia did not even try to go down that road. They created a fantastic piece of hardware and a rather good OS to run it. Then they added some applications and the rest is up to us, the community. And it seems that the community does not have PDA functionality high up its list of priorities and I understand that. I do not mean to be critical, but you might stick to Palm for PDA like applications and not expect Internet Tablets to ever even try to match them. While you might not have need of some PDA functions, others might. Given that it's so easy to install software, why not simply make it available for those who want it? I'm not sure I understand that statement. They are available. Nokia isn't preventing you from installing them. They even added an alarm API to the N800 so these apps can notify you when events are about to occur, though they still don't have a vibrate alarm in the hardware (next release, please??). What Nokia probably won't do is spend money developing PIM apps. It's a communication and entertainment device. I use it to stream media (movies and audio), as an extension to my home telephone (love Asterisk) and the best palm top browser I've ever used (neither Palm or PocketPC can match the browsing experience). While I wouldn't mind if Nokia spent the money on this, I wouldn't expect it. We'll need to help our selves, here. --Paul --Paul ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On 7/20/07, James Knott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My point is that since it is almost a general purpose computer, people should be able to do what ever they want with it, including PDA function. I don't think Nokia ever claimed that the N770/N800 were general purpose computers. It just happens that that is what they created, of course, but that is an added bonus, if you want, not a stated goal. The goal of these units was to provide an unparalleled internet experience and in that goal they have totally succeeded. I have yet to see any handheld unit capable of delivering the internet browsing experience of the N770/N800, in particular when you consider price and size. Anything beyond that was added bonus - even if that added bonus ended up being HUGE. Nokia added a couple of admittedly basic application which clearly are not killer aps (-: the mail client or the RSS reader or the notes editor or the media player will not get some technological achievement awards anytime some :-). The true killer ap is Opera and whatever else the Internet has to offer. You want PDA function: use Google calendar (or whatever else you like). They way I see it, and please do correct me if I am wrong, Nokia fully delivered on its promise when it made a small, light, wifi/bluetooth unit capable of surfing the net with Opera. Since they did base the OS on Debian GNU/Linux is was also probably apparent to everybody that the unit had a huge potential (try getting a Palm, iPaq or iPhone to run wget, top, netstat, ssh or nmap and you will see what I mean). So yes, the N770/N800 are *almost* general purpose computers, but not quite (no printing, no ethernet, etc.). If the community really felt the need for PDA capabilities they would be here. However, that has only happened with the less than bleeding edge GPE (or whatever its called). So that just goes to show that the community is not that interested in PDA functionality. I guess that I am lucky as one of the main thing I use my N800 (besides surfing that it) is reading books and for that purpose FBReader is absolutely perfect. That is *the* killer ap, at least for me. I was however quite disappointed that originally the N800 could not play ogg files. So I, and many others, complained, and that has been kind off addressed with kilikali, although what I wanted was an XMMS type of player. But none of that involved Nokia itself, and that is how it should be. I would even take that one step further: if I had my way, Nokia would stop writing *any* applications at all. Here is what I would want them to do: create a small piece of hardware which can run Debian and let go and let the community take care of everything else. What is the best application on the N770/N800? Opera, which was *not* written by Nokia. Nor was FBReader, nor was Mplayer, not was Xchat, or Xterm, or whatever other application one might see at the N770/N800 killer ap. Compare these with the, shall we kindly say, 'modest' pre-installed games. The fact is that all the best aps for the N770/N800 were community written. So why not take that one step further: let the community, maybe organized and lead by Maemo, take it all over. That would save Nokia plenty of money and the OS and application base would be far superior. I even wish that we could choose GNU/Linux or BSD to run on these units. Then we would have a *real* general purpose computer. I suspect that it was the folks which want PDA functionality pre-installed before buying which pushed Nokia to write an RSS and a mail client instead of just installing an OS or, even better, selling the hardware without any software at all. But that would have been a hard sell not only to the suits, but even to the general public. So what they did is, well, create the N770/N800 series, a careful exercise in compromises. Associating hardware and software just makes no sense. You end up with iPhones and other such Apple toys, not computers. I hope that Nokia makes enough money and get enough visibility to eventually become a provider of Internet Tablet like hardware which would fully and totally rely on the community to populate it with an operating sytem and applications. On the spectum between a handheld Debian computer on one hand, and a Palm/Apple toy on the other, I hope Nokia will choose to be as close as possible to the former. If not, the community will always have the option of removing the preinstalled software and replace it with something else. My 2cts. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 18:29 -0400, James Knott wrote: Paul Klapperich wrote: Another problem I've encountered, is with remote X apps. On my desktop linux systems, I can remotely run apps, via ssh and X. While I can start and display those apps on my N800, I can't use the keyboard or hand writing recognition to entere anything. This has been part of X and Unix/Linux for many years, yet it's broken on the N800. That's not entirely accurate. Handwriting recognition has never been a part of the X windowing system, and if you have a Bluetooth keyboard associated with the N800, you can most definitely run X applications with keyboard. The virtual keyboard/handwriting layer on the N800 is done not at the X protocol level, but at the GTK level. There's no way for the X server to know that the specific X window you have given focus to is a keyboard type input - the only solution would be for any window which can accept focus to cause the launch of the virtual keyboard. And note: what X considers a window is not the same as what you or I consider a window - any button, scroll bar, or just about any focusable object is a window to X. Now, if you want to complain about the window manager losing a minimized window, so that any non-Hildonized program once minimized cannot be maximized, I'll be right behind you saying Amen! ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Friday 20 July 2007 07:45:16 andrei raevsky wrote: On 7/20/07, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: why is it that 12-year-old Palm technology still better than anything Nokia can put out over a decade later? And if the Palm Foleo has better PDA applications, it might seriouslly threaten the N800; after all, it has built-in keyboard and is only $100 more I think I can answer this one (and if I am wrong, please correct me): the Nokia Tablets were never designed to be PDAs. They have some PDA capabilities thanks to, if my memory is correct, GPE (or something similar), but they were *not* intended as PDAs. You can probably plow a field with a Ferrari, but it would be better to use a tractor. And in a decade, Ferraris will still be mediocre tools to plow fields. I personally have no use whatsoever for PDA applications and I am quite happy that Nokia did not even try to go down that road. They created a fantastic piece of hardware and a rather good OS to run it. Then they added some applications and the rest is up to us, the community. And it seems that the community does not have PDA functionality high up its list of priorities and I understand that. I do not mean to be critical, but you might stick to Palm for PDA like applications and not expect Internet Tablets to ever even try to match them. Cheers! Andrei I kind of have to agree with Andrei. If I wanted a PDA I'd put batteries in my palm III . But to have the full capabilities of a laptop + 24/7 anywhere I have a Cell signal connectivity to the net so I can do things with my family until my boss calls in a panic. THAT is priceless to me. I don't see the system as a lightweight device at all. The owner ... now that can be lightweight (I need to get off my duff here soon and build fuser modules.) But I really need to either carry something as portable as the 770/n800 or figure out how to make my laptop walk. James ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
David Hagood wrote: On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 18:29 -0400, James Knott wrote: Paul Klapperich wrote: Another problem I've encountered, is with remote X apps. On my desktop linux systems, I can remotely run apps, via ssh and X. While I can start and display those apps on my N800, I can't use the keyboard or hand writing recognition to entere anything. This has been part of X and Unix/Linux for many years, yet it's broken on the N800. That's not entirely accurate. Handwriting recognition has never been a part of the X windowing system, and if you have a Bluetooth keyboard associated with the N800, you can most definitely run X applications with keyboard. The virtual keyboard/handwriting layer on the N800 is done not at the X protocol level, but at the GTK level. There's no way for the X server to know that the specific X window you have given focus to is a keyboard type input - the only solution would be for any window which can accept focus to cause the launch of the virtual keyboard. And note: what X considers a window is not the same as what you or I consider a window - any button, scroll bar, or just about any focusable object is a window to X. Now, if you want to complain about the window manager losing a minimized window, so that any non-Hildonized program once minimized cannot be maximized, I'll be right behind you saying Amen! When I use a remote app on my desktop system, the keyboard and mouse work with that application. Why doesn't the N800 keyboard follow that, regardless of whether I'm using a virtual keyboard or hand writing. It is generating characters, just like any physical keyboard. Why should there be a difference for what should be an identical function? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 21:20 -0400, James Knott wrote: When I use a remote app on my desktop system, the keyboard and mouse work with that application. As they do with the N800. Hook a Bluetooth keyboard up, and it works just like you said. You might try actually READING what I posted. Why doesn't the N800 keyboard follow that, regardless of whether I'm using a virtual keyboard or hand writing. Because, as I said in my first post, they keyboard on the N800 is NOT an X function, it is a function of GTK, which, as I also said in my previous post, is NOT A FUNCTION OF X. It is a layer ABOVE X. That is like saying How come when I change my Gnome theme on my local computer, my remote sessions don't change their theme! Gnome broke X! No, themes are a level above the X protocol - just like the virtual keyboard. It is generating characters, just like any physical keyboard. No, it is NOT. The Hildon keyboard is a GTK entity, and is NOT generating X keypress events. Why should there be a difference for what should be an identical function? Because they AREN'T identical functions, they are similar looking functions. That's like saying that because a zebra looks like a horse, it is identical to a horse, just stripy-er. They aren't the same, they don't have the same number of chromosomes, they aren't the same. The Hildon keyboard is a function of GTK, not X. It does not generate X keyboard events, it generates GTK events OUTSIDE OF X. Now, take a few moments, and READ WHAT I JUST WROTE. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: my two big fustrations with the N800 - please help me find aworkaround!
James Knott wrote: My point is that since it is almost a general purpose computer, people should be able to do what ever they want with it, including PDA function. That said, I find some of the apps are not quite there yet, as far as product quality and usability go. For example, while there is an email client, the import function doesn't import properly from Sea Monkey, in that it mixes up a couple of fields. The capability is certainly in the device, we simply need the applications to use it properly. Another problem I've encountered, is with remote X apps. On my desktop linux systems, I can remotely run apps, via ssh and X. While I can start and display those apps on my N800, I can't use the keyboard or hand writing recognition to entere anything. This has been part of X and Unix/Linux for many years, yet it's broken on the N800.- I agree that Nokia could perhaps do a little more to direct folks to PIM apps for the N800. However, in the big picture, I'm sure they will come, probably sooner than later. As for importing into the n800 mail client, my experience is there are also problems with importing from Thunderbird. However, curiously, I imported my TBird address book into my N800, then exported it back to another computer which needed a TBird address book update. Here I corrected the goofed up assignments (nickname and emails were reversed). Then I exported back to the N800 and the corrections were correctly displayed in the N800. Go figure. I suppose it's possible that TBird had an update in the interum that might have played a role. Or something else was in play. It would be very nice to get a Tbird (or Seamonkey) on the N800 that would have junk mail and folder filters. It's a big struggle to use the n800 to sort thru a couple hundred emails a day which Tbird does on my laptop without much trouble. Seems to me most of these TBird features were available back when I was bulleting along with a 133 M processor with 128M of memory. Always, Dr Fred C [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
