Re: Where is telnet?
Just a small correction: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Alberto Garcia agar...@igalia.com wrote: People have already ported software that is much more complex than telnet, such as OpenOffice, KDE or Pidgin. Nobody has ported OpenOffice. I developed a hack that runs OpenOffice in a Debian chroot. This same Debian chroot can also run every command line tool available within Debian, including telnet, nmap and netcat. All of these (and hundreds more) are available with a simple apt-get install. Ubuntu has also made a tablet-compatible armel distribution available, and so you can chroot into an Ubuntu rootfs as well. It is also possible to set up an entire development environment in the chroot that allows you to build Debian or Ubuntu source packages on the tablet. I built the entire Enlightenment e17 suite on-tablet using an Ubuntu chroot and a turnkey build script that I downloaded. It took the tablet 8-10 hours to do it ;-) ... but it worked! I don't believe it is Nokia's responsibility to provide developers with hacker's tools. Especially since they are free for the taking in several other places. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Alberto Garcia wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 09:30:23PM +0100, Peter Flynn wrote: It's sad that there is no evidence that Nokia marketing even understand that the problem exists, let alone understand the problem itself. I think that neither Debian or Ubuntu come with telnet installed by default. I'm not completely sure, but I found myself having to install it in some friends' computers a couple of times. OpenSUSE has it installed. However, in my experience, working with computer networking equipment, I find it rare to need it. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one company's products that have telnet, but not ssh. On other gear, I disable telnet access, in favour of ssh. That same company also doesn't use NTP, which I find annoying. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:45 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: FWIW, I've often used ssh on my N800 to remotely access my home network. It works fine. ...a server device over which *you* have total control and which *has* SSH available. Such is *not* always the case... FWIW, I work extensively with networking and telecommunications equipment. As I mentioned in anther note, only one company's products won't do ssh. Linux supports ssh out of the box and you have to do a bit of work to enable telnet access to a Linux system. I don't think you can telnet to a Windows box, without adding software. The last OS I worked with that easily supported telnet access was OS/2. Anyone who'd use telnet over the internet is asking for trouble as it's very easy to read the user ID password. A few years ago, I demonstrated to my manager how easy it was to do so. Telnet should only be used when ssh is not available. Also, I'd question the security of any system where it wasn't available. Are you likely to have problems on a home network? No. But it should never be used anywhere else. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Hi, ext Matan Ziv-Av wrote: Telnet isn't something that's either: - Needed by the device itself - An essential (needed in installing most of Debian packages without them declaring a separate dependency) The same is true for chvt, netstat, uniq, and probably many others, yet they were included. chvt: needed by device bootup scripts uniq: essential (also POSIX standard utility) netstat: legacy. we've considered removing it (along with some other legacy non-essentials in Bysybox), but our own developers use it often[1] and removing it from public releases doesn't really save that much space The reason why I talk about our own developers is that their situation is very different from external application developers (advanced) users. Our own developers may need to flash new releases many times a day and need to debug situations where the new internal release cannot even connect to network at bootup. I.e. installing additional packages from repositories isn't really an option. However, the published releases don't have anymore these kind of issues and releases happen only couple of times per year, so for end-users installing tools from a repository after downloading flashing a new release is completely valid option and a right thing to do. The decision to not include telnet was a bad decision. Admitting to mistakes and fixing them (even if only in Fremantle) is better than attacking someone who expects to have telnet on his internet tablet. If my reply seemed like an attack, I apologize, it wasn't meant as such. It's an (advanced) end-user tool and can be installed separately. Have you tested that Busybox telnet even works as well as real telnet? With the past experience I have some doubts about the quality of misc Busybox tools. :-) Yes, I have. And even if it does not, it surely does better than no telnet at all. The problem of adding new things to Busybox is that: - they then conflict with the real alternatives - they increase our essential/base set (busybox is essential so anything added to it becomes then an essential too) That's not good from the package management point of view. See e.g. bug: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2896 This has been discussed quite extensively on this list and in bugzilla. I hope we have a solution for this in Fremantle. I wonder what kind of QA did Nokia run on busybox's top or nslookup (for example) before deciding to include them? Busybox top is (still[1]) crap and is problematic because it conflicts with procps that provides much nicer top and also many nice other tools. However, (some kind of) top being pre-installed on the device is really a must for us useful for all developers and many advanced users. nslookup removal has been considered but hasn't been done so far. [1] Despite the multiple rewrites on the code I originally sent to Busybox authors. :-) Life with the tablet could be a bit simpler if Nokia chose to include more stuff that is available in busybox (md5sum, cpio, hexdump, ...). md5sum is an essential + there's a bug about it missing in bugs.maemo.org. As a result it's included into Fremantle busybox (along with quite many other utilities belonging to Debian essential packages Busybox claims to be providing). cpio hexdump aren't essential (in the upstream compatibility / Debian packaging sense), so they can be installed separately. cpio is in Debian in cpio and hexdump in bsdmainutils package. Some of them will be included into Fremantle; the ones that are in Debian in packages that Busybox currently claims to provide and conflicts with and which provide options compatible with GNU tools. Other tools belong to somewhere else. telnet belongs on an Interner Tablet, and claiming otherwise is akin to claiming that the WWW is the internet. Device has application manager apt-get. Claiming that in an Internet device everything needs to be pre-installed into the device itself is so mid-90's. :-) - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Yes, I'm certain. It was used with a little application called simply terminal. I used it constantly with bulletin boards before the proliferation of ISPs and the Web, and even after I had a real ISP to access my email. That same application was available in Win9x/ME, and the NT/XP versions of Windows have all had command line telnet. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Yes, I'm certain. It was used with a little application called simply terminal. I used it constantly with bulletin boards before the proliferation of ISPs and the Web, and even after I had a real ISP to access my email. That same application was available in Win9x/ME, and the NT/XP versions of Windows have all had command line telnet. Back in those days, BBS systems were generally not on the internet. You'd access them with a dial up modem and terminal app, such as Hyperterminal, that's now commonly found on Windows. You did not have an IP connection to the BBS, just serial ASCII. Telnet is used over IP. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:10 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:45 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: FWIW, I've often used ssh on my N800 to remotely access my home network. It works fine. ...a server device over which *you* have total control and which *has* SSH available. Such is *not* always the case... FWIW, I work extensively with networking and telecommunications equipment. As I mentioned in anther note, only one company's products won't do ssh. Linux supports ssh out of the box and you have to do a bit of work to enable telnet access to a Linux system. I don't think you can telnet to a Windows box, without adding software. The last OS I worked with that easily supported telnet access was OS/2. Anyone who'd use telnet over the internet is asking for trouble as it's very easy to read the user ID password. A few years ago, I demonstrated to my manager how easy it was to do so. Telnet should only be used when ssh is not available. Also, I'd question the security of any system where it wasn't available. Are you likely to have problems on a home network? No. But it should never be used anywhere else. Again, you're talking from a server-side viewpoint, where you have control over what's available. Also, you're too paranoid. Sometimes security is irrelevant, such as with throw-away logins for stuff that has zero personal information and you'll never use again and situations where the complete user area (or even the entire computer) is a sandbox and completely overwritten for a totally fresh start every day. As I said before, your personal experience is *not* the be-all and end-all. Also, sometimes SSH fails under its own weight. I'm having a problem where I can't access one server because the second the login is accepted it starts spewing garbage and crashes Putty. Obviously something is going wrong with the decryption. The exact same app and server work fine on my other machines, so I'm stumped. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:20 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 5:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Yes, I'm certain. It was used with a little application called simply terminal. I used it constantly with bulletin boards before the proliferation of ISPs and the Web, and even after I had a real ISP to access my email. That same application was available in Win9x/ME, and the NT/XP versions of Windows have all had command line telnet. Back in those days, BBS systems were generally not on the internet. You'd access them with a dial up modem and terminal app, such as Hyperterminal, that's now commonly found on Windows. You did not have an IP connection to the BBS, just serial ASCII. Telnet is used over IP. No kidding. Just as telnet needs a command prompt window on WinNT/XP, it needed a window to display the text interface in Win3.11. Hyperterminal was preinstalled and worked just fine for that. Hyperterminal was no different than a command prompt window in Windows or a terminal window in Linux, just an easy tool to interface the user with a command prompt, which could be accessed in other ways as well. None of the command line windows are in and of themselves communications apps or protocols, they just provide access to them. The app on my Psion was very similar to Hyperterminal, but since its OS was neither Windows nor Mac nor *nix, there was never a GUI or other semi-automated app to connect to my ISP. It had its own app to enter the dialup settings and connect, but then I used the terminal app to telnet to my ISP's server as well as my work servers. (But I could also send AT commands directly from the terminal to establish the connection.) The work ones eventually went to SSH (only a couple of years ago), but that's beside the point, as the issue at hand is the existence of telnet software on standard Windows installations. I don't often have a need for telnet anymore, but I do occasionally have to open a command prompt in whatever OS I'm on and use it. It is NOT completely useless. By the way, command line ftp is experiencing similar issues: There's often not a preinstalled GUI app for ftp, and secure ftp is becoming more common. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: Also, sometimes SSH fails under its own weight. I'm having a problem where I can't access one server because the second the login is accepted it starts spewing garbage and crashes Putty. Obviously something is going wrong with the decryption. The exact same app and server work fine on my other machines, so I'm stumped. That's a client side issue as you've most likely got different versions of PuTTY on each system. sshd is pretty light on resource use -- even better if you're using dropbear. So unless you're using antiquated hardware or don't care about sending your credentials in plaintext, telnet's only useful for debugging. I've found netcat (nc) to be more useful since it can listen as well as connect. -Gary ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Gary g...@eyetraxx.net wrote: Mark wrote: Also, sometimes SSH fails under its own weight. I'm having a problem where I can't access one server because the second the login is accepted it starts spewing garbage and crashes Putty. Obviously something is going wrong with the decryption. The exact same app and server work fine on my other machines, so I'm stumped. That's a client side issue as you've most likely got different versions of PuTTY on each system. sshd is pretty light on resource use -- even better if you're using dropbear. So unless you're using antiquated hardware or don't care about sending your credentials in plaintext, telnet's only useful for debugging. I've found netcat (nc) to be more useful since it can listen as well as connect. -Gary It's obviously client-side, but the versions are identical: kubuntu 9.04, Putty the identical most recent version available. I've tried deleting the profile and re-adding it, but that doesn't work. I think I need to figure out how to purge the key and reload it. There isn't anything obvious in the GUI to do that, but I haven't spent a lot of time investigating because accessing that particular server isn't critical to me, and I can always boot over to Windows if I really need to. Or even use the tablet, as it's connecting fine with OpenSSH. As I said, sometimes I *don't* care about sending my credentials in plaintext, because there's no possibility of anyone using them against me in any way that matters. I just don't use credentials that I use anywhere else. In fact, that can be a *good* thing, as in misdirection... I can lug my wallet around in a safe if I'm that paranoid, but personally I think I have bigger things to worry about than my wallet if I'm being mugged, and someone can still take the whole safe and crack it at their leisure. Overkill is overkill, and paranoia is seldom useful. I can understand being careful about preventing ID theft/fraud (I am myself), but being paranoid about every little thing is absurd. I mean, really, why do you care if somebody reads your emails or overhears your conversations, unless you're doing something you shouldn't? There's a big difference between being reasonably careful and being paranoid. And if you live somewhere that you're being oppressed for things that are perfectly acceptable, that's you're fault. You have options: either take an active role in changing things, or move somewhere else. Bitching, moaning and complaining to people who can't do anything about it and being paranoid all the time isn't going to solve anything and in fact only makes things worse. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: As I said, sometimes I *don't* care about sending my credentials in plaintext, because there's no possibility of anyone using them against me in any way that matters. I just don't use credentials that I use anywhere else. In fact, that can be a *good* thing, as in misdirection... I can lug my wallet around in a safe if I'm that paranoid, but personally I think I have bigger things to worry about than my wallet if I'm being mugged, and someone can still take the whole safe and crack it at their leisure. Overkill is overkill, and paranoia is seldom useful. I can understand being careful about preventing ID theft/fraud (I am myself), but being paranoid about every little thing is absurd. I mean, really, why do you care if somebody reads your emails or overhears your conversations, unless you're doing something you shouldn't? There's a big difference between being reasonably careful and being paranoid. And if you live somewhere that you're being oppressed for things that are perfectly acceptable, that's you're fault. You have options: either take an active role in changing things, or move somewhere else. Bitching, moaning and complaining to people who can't do anything about it and being paranoid all the time isn't going to solve anything and in fact only makes things worse. Mark, I will print your comment, frame it, and hang it on the wall. Just to have it ready to be copied the next time I run into one of those security zealots with cold war mindset. Kudos for the common sense. FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Matan Ziv-Av wrote: The telnet package on my N810 is from this repository, according to apt-cache policy: Also, it looks like netcat can be obtained from the tools repository. See this page to activate and install tools: http://maemo.org/development/tools. q.v. http://maemo.org/development/documentation/man_pages -Gary ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. For more info, including timeline data, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winsock Funny how firsts can be unclear. If you try to find out when the first computer mouse (and GUI) was invented, not only was it *long* before Apple, it was also long before SPARC. It's a lot safer to say something existed *by* a certain time than to say it never existed before that. The only reason your statement is correct is because it adds and web browser to the TCP/IP stack. That was before IE existed (it was initially part of Plus! for Windows 95), and the Windows browser of choice at the time was NCSA Mosaic, on which Netscape Navigator was based, but no browser came with Windows 3.x. This is becoming a real nostalgia trip... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. Sorry, I missed the 3.11 in your statement. Yet, I assumed, and continue to think that WfW (which we in the Team OS/2 referred to as Windows for Warehouses) included only NETBIOS/Netbeui/IPX protocols as the base for Peer to peer LAN networking (printer sharing, disk sharing), but not TCP/IP. Where to get TCP/IP for WfW 3.11 ? http://lists.samba.org/archive/samba/1998-July/007965.html http://stason.org/TULARC/os/windows-winsock/11-Microsoft-TCP-IP-32.html This is Microsoft's stack for use with Windows NT or Windows for Workgroups 3.11. Unfortunately, this stack does NOT support dialup connections. Free for owners of Windows NT or Windows for Workgroups. Available from: ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/peropsys/windows/Public/tcpip/; Download TCP/IP for Windows 3.11b http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;99891 FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. IIRC, Windows for Workgroups included NetBIOS networking, which was the default networking for Windows, DOS OS/2. IP support came with Windows 95, as initially Microsoft didn't think the internet would amount to much. Do not confuse networking with IP support. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
Fernando Cassia wrote: Sorry, I missed the 3.11 in your statement. Yet, I assumed, and continue to think that WfW (which we in the Team OS/2 referred to as Windows for Warehouses) included only NETBIOS/Netbeui/IPX protocols as the base for Peer to peer LAN networking (printer sharing, disk sharing), but not TCP/IP. Some called it Windows for food groups. ;-) Quite right on the networking. IP was not included. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 1:52 PM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:03 AM, James Knott james.kn...@rogers.com wrote: Mark wrote: All flavors of Windows since 3.11 came with telnet pre-installed. My Psion Series 5 (circa 1997) had telnet out of the box, and it certainly doesn't have anything like the storage or any other resources the ITs have. Are you sure it was in Windows 3.11? That was before MS embraced the internet, with W95. Windows 3.1 had no TCP/IP stack whatsoever. People used to install Trumpet Winsock to get on-line. Back then the first x86 desktop OS to be released which included a TCP/IP stack and web browser was IBM OS/2 Warp 3.0, released in 1994. FC Not quite right. I had Windows for Workgroups, version 3.11 (as opposed to 3.1), which was obviously intended for network/Internet use and had additional components. I didn't have to install anything extra beyond the Workgroup extras. I do recall later having to do some troubleshooting that involved delving into Trumpet Winsock, but that was long after I was online. Windows 3.0 had no winsock out of the box, but it was available. IIRC, Windows for Workgroups included NetBIOS networking, which was the default networking for Windows, DOS OS/2. IP support came with Windows 95, as initially Microsoft didn't think the internet would amount to much. Do not confuse networking with IP support. Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Version 1.1 of Winsock (in case that's not clear, the Win is short for Windows...) came out in January 1993. That's Windows 3.x, for those of you who are paying attention. No, the very first version of Windows 3.0 didn't come with it out of the box, but that's one of the things that made WFW 3.11 for workgroups, as in businesses who need *all kinds* of networking, not just internal Windows ones. By Windows 95, IE came into existence and Micro$oft had begun their monopolistic drive in earnest. (And Winsock *was* integral with Win95.) But Windows 95 (and IE) was being developed by the time 3.11 came out... See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 The first PC I personally owned I bought in January 1995, with Windows 3.11 pre-installed (a Gateway 2000 P5-90). I can't speak for other or older versions or installations, but I didn't have to install winsock because it was already installed. Since Win32s was also already installed, maybe it was Gateway 2000's everything but the kitchen sink philosophy at work. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark wrote: Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support: Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (originally codenamed Snowball) was released on 11 August 1993,[4] and shipped in November 1993.[5] It supported 32-bit file access, full 32-bit network redirectors, and the VCACHE.386 file cache, shared between them. The standard execution mode of the Windows kernel was discontinued in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. A Winsock package was required to support TCP/IP networking in Windows 3.x. Usually third-party packages were used, but in August 1994 Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) that provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark wrote: Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support: Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (originally codenamed Snowball) was released on 11 August 1993,[4] and shipped in November 1993.[5] It supported 32-bit file access, full 32-bit network redirectors, and the VCACHE.386 file cache, shared between them. The standard execution mode of the Windows kernel was discontinued in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. A Winsock package was required to support TCP/IP networking in Windows 3.x. Usually third-party packages were used, but in August 1994 Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) that provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org Originally... As I said, it came preinstalled on my machine... But this is all beside the point, because the whole point of the conversation was that yes, telnet has been integral to Windows for well over a decade. Even if it were never available in 3.11, it most certainly was in Win95. Here's one of many how tos: http://www.demon.net/helpdesk/technicallibrary/misc/telnet/telnet.html And here's one that very clearly includes Windows 3.11: http://www.computerhope.com/software/telnet.htm And more indications of telnet on Win3.11: http://www.sxlist.com/techref/app/inet/telnet.htm http://www.internettechboston.com/2007/06/28/windows-vista-comes-with-telnet-uninstalled/ So, regardless of the TCP/IP stack, Windows 3.11 did in fact include telnet out of the box. So there! :-P Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: On Fri, 15 May 2009, Mark wrote: Sigh... would you please read the references before relying on your memory? NetBIOS/NetBEUI was included in the *basic* Windows 3.1; WFW 3.11 added features, including Winsock. Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support. So I WAS RIGHT!. I win. GRIN ;-) Now let's please return to the regular Nokia grilling. :-) FC ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Where is telnet?
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Matan Ziv-Av ma...@svgalib.org wrote: Actually, the link you gave specifically says that WfW 3.11 shipped without TCP/IP support: Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (originally codenamed Snowball) was released on 11 August 1993,[4] and shipped in November 1993.[5] It supported 32-bit file access, full 32-bit network redirectors, and the VCACHE.386 file cache, shared between them. The standard execution mode of the Windows kernel was discontinued in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. A Winsock package was required to support TCP/IP networking in Windows 3.x. Usually third-party packages were used, but in August 1994 Microsoft released an add-on package (codenamed Wolverine) that provided limited TCP/IP support in Windows for Workgroups 3.11. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.11 -- Matan Ziv-Av. ma...@svgalib.org You need to re-read that: it says: an add-on package. In the case of later versions of WFW, that meant it shipped with, just not necessarily enabled. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
