VS: Re: N900 Delayed
Aihe: Re: N900 Delayed Lähettäjä: Nicolau Werneck nwern...@gmail.com Päivämäärä: 25.10.2009 22:23 On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 08:49:58AM -0600, Mark wrote: The overwhelming majority of the Linux desktop apps I've tried are far from finished, (aside from games and other fluff). Long before an app is finished, the developers split their efforts and you end up with a dozen competing apps, none of which will ever be finished. They're all too busy arguing about design details/philosophy to actually complete critical functionality. That goes for Linux as an OS as well. Can you list some specific examples of Linux programs that compete with each other when they should merge into less projects? Here are some programs I use. mozilla, emacs, mutt, inkscape, pdflatex, awesome (window manager). They do have competitors, like konqueror, vim, pine and xfig, but I think it's fair to say all these classic programs deserve their places. And I know these are not the avarage user's applications... So what kind of applications are you refering to? Email and RSS readers? Spreadsheet, text editor, twitter client, media player?... xmms should merge with amarok? I did start my own small and crappy twitter client the other day, and I've been using it in my N800. Would you suggest me to drop my project and instead devote myself to enhance another existing competitor? Am I just thinking about what is best for me instead of what is best for the community? ++nicolau The point is to find balance between opposites. No competition is very bad and wrong kind of competition is very bad. But competition is really needed to change things to better. Lame iPhone - argument: web surfing is what it is. If you dont like it there is nothing to do (because no competition cant exist because of app store rules). N900 has webkit AND mozilla... There is no one perfect example user who represents 5M mobile phone users, there are only groups that prefer different things at random. Ossipena ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: VS: Re: N900 Delayed
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 1:00 AM, Timo Pelkonen pelt...@gmail.com wrote: Aihe: Re: N900 Delayed Lähettäjä: Nicolau Werneck nwern...@gmail.com Päivämäärä: 25.10.2009 22:23 On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 08:49:58AM -0600, Mark wrote: The overwhelming majority of the Linux desktop apps I've tried are far from finished, (aside from games and other fluff). Long before an app is finished, the developers split their efforts and you end up with a dozen competing apps, none of which will ever be finished. They're all too busy arguing about design details/philosophy to actually complete critical functionality. That goes for Linux as an OS as well. Can you list some specific examples of Linux programs that compete with each other when they should merge into less projects? Mapping/navigation programs, email/calendar/PIM suites, media players, office suites/apps, and the list goes on and on and on. Any time there are several apps that are trying to do the same thing. Here are some programs I use. mozilla, emacs, mutt, inkscape, pdflatex, awesome (window manager). They do have competitors, like konqueror, vim, pine and xfig, but I think it's fair to say all these classic programs deserve their places. And I know these are not the avarage user's applications... So what kind of applications are you refering to? Email and RSS readers? Spreadsheet, text editor, twitter client, media player?... xmms should merge with amarok? I did start my own small and crappy twitter client the other day, and I've been using it in my N800. Would you suggest me to drop my project and instead devote myself to enhance another existing competitor? Am I just thinking about what is best for me instead of what is best for the community? The point is that you're not doing what's best for you, never mind the community. You're expending your energy creating something from scratch that already exists in some form elsewhere, but instead of taking advantage of what already exists, you choose to strike off on your own. (See http://www.fsckin.com/2008/03/31/twitter-clients-for-linux/ or http://maemo.org/community/maemo-users/new_twitter_client/ or http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/mauku/ ). You could use existing apps, port something to maemo or make an existing app better. Then everybody would benefit, and it would be less work for you. ++nicolau The point is to find balance between opposites. This is a myth perpetuated by people who think the world is black and white and that compromise is in and of itself bad. When you say opposite, the actual fact is that you mean different. By definition, no Twitter (for example) app can be the opposite of another, because they are trying to do the same thing. They may be different in appearance or feature set, but the fundamental goal is the same. The truth is that an app that is flexible and offers many more options is far better than a slew of competing apps, none of which have the exact mix of features that anybody wants. The result is that people usually have to install multiple apps for the same thing, because no one app does everything they need. That wastes time, space, effort and energy. No competition is very bad and wrong kind of competition is very bad. But competition is really needed to change things to better. Lame iPhone - argument: web surfing is what it is. If you dont like it there is nothing to do (because no competition cant exist because of app store rules). N900 has webkit AND mozilla... snip Stifling freedom has nothing to do with competition. Apple isn't stifling competition (there's plenty of that within the app store) but they are attempting to stifle innovation itself. They want everything to fit their own narrow view of how things should be (which is what causes the counterproductive competition in the OSS and Linux worlds), but the fundamental motive is profit. The major error that people are making is in insisting that competition and cooperation are mutually exclusive terms, which is far from the truth. In actuality, cooperation *is* competition to make things better. There is no one perfect example user who represents 5M mobile phone users, there are only groups that prefer different things at random. Ossipena Exactly. Which is why flexibility is key and why deliberately inflexible competing apps that don't fully meet anyone's needs are bad. A modular approach is best. For those who don't like fluff, the basic app does the basic stuff. Plugins do everything else. Let people skin and change the UI if they like that stuff and don't mind the bloat. The truth is that good design really can allow everybody to get what they want. Somebody recently was accusing Firefox of being bloated. They were completely ignoring the fact that firefox allows you to get down to the nitty gritty and control nearly everything it does. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to install dozens of plugins, and even a lot
Re: VS: Re: N900 Delayed
Timo Pelkonen wrote: Can you list some specific examples of Linux programs that compete with each other when they should merge into less projects? ... So what kind of applications are you refering to? Email and RSS readers? Spreadsheet, text editor, twitter client, media player? xmms should merge with amarok? doesn't emacs already do everything? ;) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N900 Delayed
http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE59M2RJ20091023?feedType=RSSfeedName=technologyNews Is that price correct? Very very expensive. I cannot see paying such a price for it. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N900 Delayed
On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/25 Mark Haury wolfm...@gmail.com: John B. Holmblad wrote: All, I just happened to find some news from the last day or so concerning delay in the N900 product availability. Here is the url to the Reuters article: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE59M2RJ20091023?feedType=RSSfeedName=technologyNews Now, does this mean a developer's November, that is, November 30 or a marketing department's November, that is, November 1? ...or a Linux/Maemo November, meaning some time in December you might get the hardware, and about a year later, long before the software is completed, they'll abandon it and introduce a new model... If I only could have a cent for all the FUD I read :D -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc My statement is based on fact concerning all three of Nokia's tablets so far, not to mention all other supposedly OSS Linux devices of which I'm aware to date. 2 years after it was supposed to be released as a consumer device, the FreeRunner still is far from reality. The overwhelming majority of the Linux desktop apps I've tried are far from finished, (aside from games and other fluff). Long before an app is finished, the developers split their efforts and you end up with a dozen competing apps, none of which will ever be finished. They're all too busy arguing about design details/philosophy to actually complete critical functionality. That goes for Linux as an OS as well. The only ones that approach anything like day-to-day usability are the ones that have a commercial aspect and a business model that brings in money. Not that commercial products don't have their problems, but at least they have to complete the critical functionality in order to have a chance. If OSS developers would come to their senses and realize that 1) Compromise (over philosophy, not functionality) is an integral part of existence and 2) A little cooperation will take you ten times as far as a whole bunch of competition, they could take over the world. But that will never happen... Contrary to moronic opinion, competition is NOT good. The problem with competition is that it isn't about innovation, and it's not positive. It's about getting one over on the other guy, regardless of any actual value. It's about negative energy. Competition says, your idea is fine, but my idea is better. It's *cooperation* that says, okay, let's take this idea and see what we can do with it and how far we can go with it. Competition is what kills really good ideas, while others that are far inferior are successful, not because they are good but because competition rewards the killer instinct and status-quo thinking and penalizes original thought. Remember when you could identify the make, model and year of an automobile just from a photo of a 4-inch square of lines anywhere on the vehicle? Now you have to find a badge just to determine the make, never mind the model or year. And within a make, different models were completely different and attractive in their own, very different ways. Within a model lineup there would be some you really liked and others that left you cold, but there was always something you would consider. Now, the idiotic brand image paradigm that makes all models from a manufacturer have the same styling cues means that when they make a stupid decision it isn't just one or two models that are fugly, but the whole line. It's ironic that it's competition that has resulted in all cars looking alike. Somebody puts out a model that is attractive and well-received, and everybody else has to copy styling cues from it, unfortunately almost always with a bad result, but they keep doing it anyway. ...but I digress. The N900 adds some important functionality, but it also removes some critical functionality, and the price is so far beyond what is reasonable for such a device that it's not likely to be very successful. Even if they eventually are subsidized by the carriers, they will still cost as much or more than the competition when totally unlocked and open. I certainly can't afford one. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N900 Delayed
On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 08:49:58AM -0600, Mark wrote: The overwhelming majority of the Linux desktop apps I've tried are far from finished, (aside from games and other fluff). Long before an app is finished, the developers split their efforts and you end up with a dozen competing apps, none of which will ever be finished. They're all too busy arguing about design details/philosophy to actually complete critical functionality. That goes for Linux as an OS as well. Can you list some specific examples of Linux programs that compete with each other when they should merge into less projects? Here are some programs I use. mozilla, emacs, mutt, inkscape, pdflatex, awesome (window manager). They do have competitors, like konqueror, vim, pine and xfig, but I think it's fair to say all these classic programs deserve their places. And I know these are not the avarage user's applications... So what kind of applications are you refering to? Email and RSS readers? Spreadsheet, text editor, twitter client, media player?... xmms should merge with amarok? I did start my own small and crappy twitter client the other day, and I've been using it in my N800. Would you suggest me to drop my project and instead devote myself to enhance another existing competitor? Am I just thinking about what is best for me instead of what is best for the community? ++nicolau -- Nicolau Werneck nwern...@gmail.com 1AAB 4050 1999 BDFF 4862 http://www.lti.pcs.usp.br/~nwerneck 4A33 D2B5 648B 4789 0327 Linux user #460716 After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. -- Aldous Huxley signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
N900 Delayed
All, I just happened to find some news from the last day or so concerning delay in the N900 product availability. Here is the url to the Reuters article: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE59M2RJ20091023?feedType=RSSfeedName=technologyNews Now, does this mean a developer's November, that is, November 30 or a marketing department's November, that is, November 1? -- Best Regards, John Holmblad Acadia Secure Networks, LLC * * ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N900 Delayed
John B. Holmblad wrote: All, I just happened to find some news from the last day or so concerning delay in the N900 product availability. Here is the url to the Reuters article: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE59M2RJ20091023?feedType=RSSfeedName=technologyNews Now, does this mean a developer's November, that is, November 30 or a marketing department's November, that is, November 1? ...or a Linux/Maemo November, meaning some time in December you might get the hardware, and about a year later, long before the software is completed, they'll abandon it and introduce a new model... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N900 Delayed
2009/10/25 Mark Haury wolfm...@gmail.com: John B. Holmblad wrote: All, I just happened to find some news from the last day or so concerning delay in the N900 product availability. Here is the url to the Reuters article: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE59M2RJ20091023?feedType=RSSfeedName=technologyNews Now, does this mean a developer's November, that is, November 30 or a marketing department's November, that is, November 1? ...or a Linux/Maemo November, meaning some time in December you might get the hardware, and about a year later, long before the software is completed, they'll abandon it and introduce a new model... If I only could have a cent for all the FUD I read :D -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
