Re: [Mailman-Developers] VM for Mailman development

[David Champion]

* On 19 Mar 2012, Terri Oda wrote: 
> 
> Incidentally, how much interest would there be in having a Mailman-developer
> VM (say, for VirtualBox) around and easy to download?  Some modern distro,

I'm not very active around here anymore, but I'll toss this to the
table: maybe a public ec2 AMI?  A sponsoring foundation could even host
an account with "IAM" (Amazon IDM) to run them under and pay for the AMI
storage.

-- 
David Champion • d...@uchicago.edu • IT Services • University of Chicago
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] VM for Mailman development

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 19, 2012, at 06:17 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I'm currently thinking about VirtualBox vs. dual boot. I'm used to
>working with Cygwin command windows on my Windows desktop. There are
>various issues with Cygwin, both itself and WRT MM 3, so I need to move
>away from that. VirtualBox would allow me to continue to work in a
>hybrid environment with some Windows applications and some Unix like
>applications running together, but dual boot might avoid potential
>hardware interface issues and would motivate me to move completely away
>from Windows (although I would probably still need access to Windows to
>diagnose user problems with the web site I admin).

>From a technical standpoint, you can run Windows in a virtual machine hosted
on Linux. :)

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] VM for Mailman development

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 19, 2012, at 05:02 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

>On 03/19/2012 03:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> At this point, I don't know whether the best approach is look for a
>> more complete development box for Vagrant or figure out how to
>> provision the basic Vagrant box with what I need or forget Vagrant and
>> install directly in VirtualBox or go with a dual-boot.
>>
>> Anyway, it's going to be interesting to figure this out.
>
>Incidentally, how much interest would there be in having a Mailman-developer
>VM (say, for VirtualBox) around and easy to download?  Some modern distro,
>appropriate dev tools, and a checkout of moderately recent code, maybe even
>ready to run with instructions on the desktop or something?  It seems like it
>might be a nice thing to hand out to prospective GSoC students as well as
>Mark. ;) The Systers folk made one a few years ago for 2.1 dev and maybe it's
>time for an updated version?

+1 is an understatement. :)

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] VM for Mailman development

[Mark Sapiro]

On 3/19/2012 4:02 PM, Terri Oda wrote:
> 
> Incidentally, how much interest would there be in having a
> Mailman-developer VM (say, for VirtualBox) around and easy to download?
>  Some modern distro, appropriate dev tools, and a checkout of moderately
> recent code, maybe even ready to run with instructions on the desktop or
> something?  It seems like it might be a nice thing to hand out to
> prospective GSoC students as well as Mark. ;)


I think it would be great. I'm not sure how fast I will progress with
this, but I may be the one to make it. If it were available right now, I
would certainly use it.

I'm currently thinking about VirtualBox vs. dual boot. I'm used to
working with Cygwin command windows on my Windows desktop. There are
various issues with Cygwin, both itself and WRT MM 3, so I need to move
away from that. VirtualBox would allow me to continue to work in a
hybrid environment with some Windows applications and some Unix like
applications running together, but dual boot might avoid potential
hardware interface issues and would motivate me to move completely away
from Windows (although I would probably still need access to Windows to
diagnose user problems with the web site I admin).

Of course, I could always do both. The two machines I would do this on
both have two 200GB+ hard drives with lots of available space so disc is
not a problem. My travel computer has 8GB of ram and a dual-core 64 bit
CPU, so that's plenty I'm sure. My main, at home computer is over 10
years old and has only 2GB of ram and a Pentium 4 CPU, but I think even
it would be OK.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Developers] VM for Mailman development

[Terri Oda]

On 03/19/2012 03:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

At this point, I don't know whether the best approach is look for a
more complete development box for Vagrant or figure out how to
provision the basic Vagrant box with what I need or forget Vagrant and
install directly in VirtualBox or go with a dual-boot.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to figure this out.


Incidentally, how much interest would there be in having a 
Mailman-developer VM (say, for VirtualBox) around and easy to download? 
 Some modern distro, appropriate dev tools, and a checkout of 
moderately recent code, maybe even ready to run with instructions on the 
desktop or something?  It seems like it might be a nice thing to hand 
out to prospective GSoC students as well as Mark. ;)  The Systers folk 
made one a few years ago for 2.1 dev and maybe it's time for an updated 
version?


 Terri
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Richard Wackerbarth]

I, too, am attempting to get MM3 running on my new laptop (Mac OSX 10.7).
Because of the way Xcode 4.3 and Python are set up, compiling the .c extensions 
in storm is failing.

I need to figure out where I can tell setup.py to add an additional "include" 
path when it calls the  c compiler.

Anyone know how?

Richard

On Mar 19, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On Mar 19, 2012, at 02:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
>> I ran 'sudo apt-get install python-dev' on the VM which I thought
>> would fix it, and the install seemed to run OK, but I still had no
>> Python.h.
> 
> Hmm, I just tried this in a Lucid chroot and it worked for me. :/
> 
> I do get test failures (could be 2.6 related) but everything built.
> 
> - -Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Barry Warsaw]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mar 19, 2012, at 02:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I ran 'sudo apt-get install python-dev' on the VM which I thought
>would fix it, and the install seemed to run OK, but I still had no
>Python.h.

Hmm, I just tried this in a Lucid chroot and it worked for me. :/

I do get test failures (could be 2.6 related) but everything built.

- -Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Chris Clark]

On Monday 2012-03-19 14:40 (-0700), Andrea Crotti 
 wrote:

Well but why using Vagrant?
Vagrant is great to create VMS for automatic testing, but if you want 
to create your own
VM with all your things that you need I don't see how it can help, 
just install a normal

Ubuntu/whatever on Virtualbox and you're fine..


I'd recommend this too. (Vagrant for repeatable deployments, you only 
need one).


If you like Ubuntu, Ubuntu Server (an LTS version) is well worth using 
for this sort of thing as it is already headless, no desktop (or though 
you can add one if you want).


Chris

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Andrea Crotti]

On 03/19/2012 09:14 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:


Thanks to all for the advice. I have some learning to do.

I actually have VirtualBox installed and for the sprint I had a
Vagrant VM set up running the basic
http://files.vagrantup.com/lucid32.box. I had set up a virtualenv on
this box with Sphinx installed for the Sphinx tutorial at PyCon, and
this worked really well.

When I got to the Mailman sprint, I tried to install MM 3 on this
Vagrant VM, and I ran into some error with buildout trying to compile
some package and failing with a missing Python.h file.

I ran 'sudo apt-get install python-dev' on the VM which I thought
would fix it, and the install seemed to run OK, but I still had no
Python.h.

At that point, I gave up and went to a virtualenv on my production server.

At this point, I don't know whether the best approach is look for a
more complete development box for Vagrant or figure out how to
provision the basic Vagrant box with what I need or forget Vagrant and
install directly in VirtualBox or go with a dual-boot.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to figure this out.




Well but why using Vagrant?
Vagrant is great to create VMS for automatic testing, but if you want to 
create your own
VM with all your things that you need I don't see how it can help, just 
install a normal

Ubuntu/whatever on Virtualbox and you're fine..

And another possible advice is to always copy the errors you get, also 
because most of the times

you can get the answer you want simply by a quick google search ;)
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Mark Sapiro]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 3/19/2012 4:25 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> There are lots of options here.  As mentioned, virtualbox should be
> a good option, and you can probably use something like wubi to
> create an Ubuntu desktop running along side Windows.


Thanks to all for the advice. I have some learning to do.

I actually have VirtualBox installed and for the sprint I had a
Vagrant VM set up running the basic
http://files.vagrantup.com/lucid32.box. I had set up a virtualenv on
this box with Sphinx installed for the Sphinx tutorial at PyCon, and
this worked really well.

When I got to the Mailman sprint, I tried to install MM 3 on this
Vagrant VM, and I ran into some error with buildout trying to compile
some package and failing with a missing Python.h file.

I ran 'sudo apt-get install python-dev' on the VM which I thought
would fix it, and the install seemed to run OK, but I still had no
Python.h.

At that point, I gave up and went to a virtualenv on my production server.

At this point, I don't know whether the best approach is look for a
more complete development box for Vagrant or figure out how to
provision the basic Vagrant box with what I need or forget Vagrant and
install directly in VirtualBox or go with a dual-boot.

Anyway, it's going to be interesting to figure this out.

- -- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Grackle archive framework

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:55:19AM +0530, Aamir Khan wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 4:24 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> 
> > On Mar 18, 2012, at 12:23 AM, Aamir Khan wrote:
> >
> > >On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:55 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> > >> On IRC, we talked about a storm + Python mailbox library based backend,
> > >> with a
> > >> REST+JSON wsgi based application vending the data.  This would allow us
> > to
> > >> integrate fairly easily with MM3 I think, and would possibly better
> > enable
> > >> some of the archiver work being done by Terri and others.
> > >>
> > >
> > >I understand that we will store the messages in .mbox format. But I don't
> > >understand why do we need to use storm for the archiving purpose.
> >
> > I meant to say "maildir".  Please let's not use mbox format!  It's way too
> > easy to corrupt the file, as we did with a bug once in MM2.1, and we've
> > paid
> > the price ever since.
> >
> 
> I read the difference between maildir and mbox format and it clearly states
> that mbox is prone to corruption while maildir is not. Also there are more
> advantages using maildir in a way that there is no file locking problem.
> But since we will be storing each mail in a separate file, searching
> through them will not as fast enough. Using database alone also have
> problems like, it will use more hard disk, more CPU cycles will be consumed.
> 
> So, if we can store the messages in maildir format with a copy of it it
> database. we can serve the searching request using database query which
> will powered by full-text search engine. But then there will be problems of
> synchronization between the maildir messages and  messages stored in
> database. What are your thoughts about it ?
> 
> As for searching the archive, there are solutions like Elastic Search,
> Solr, lucene. Can we use one of them to search directly through the maildir.
> 
Note that a few of us have been playing with a searching-archiver.  An
initial prototype used notmuch.  We looked into using raw xapian at pycon.
And now, one of our developers (pingou on IRC) has pushed out a prototype
that uses mongodb for the backend.

You can take a look at our development copy here:

http://mm3test.fedoraproject.org/2/list/devel@fp.o

I'll be working on splitting out a tested copy from an in-development copy
later today.  That way we won't be creating web pages with tracebacks all
the time :-)

Code for this is available in the hyperkitty mongodb branch:

bzr branch bzr://bzr.fedorahosted.org/bzr/hyperkitty/mongodb

-Toshio


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Andrea Crotti]

On 03/19/2012 12:27 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Andrea Crotti wrote:


Just as a suggestion, it would be nice to have a few lines in the
documentation about this, something like you just explained would be already
quite good, since it's not so clear by just looking at the code..

Care to adapt my post into a merge proposal? :)

-Barry


Yes sure I will do that ASAP..
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 19, 2012, at 12:03 PM, Andrea Crotti wrote:

>Just as a suggestion, it would be nice to have a few lines in the
>documentation about this, something like you just explained would be already
>quite good, since it's not so clear by just looking at the code..

Care to adapt my post into a merge proposal? :)

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Adam McGreggor]

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 07:25:37AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> >Also, I need to figure out a better development platform for Windows
> >boxes. I had a perfect opportunity to scrap Windows all together when
> >I had to recover from a hard drive crash on my main development box
> >last year, but the dice fell the wrong way on that one.
> 
> There are lots of options here.  As mentioned, virtualbox should be a good
> option, and you can probably use something like wubi to create an Ubuntu
> desktop running along side Windows. 

http://xkcd.com/424/

springs to mind.

(I'm aware a fair few people are moving away from Ubuntu, in favor of
Mint ).

> >Maybe I can organize a sprint at the next PyCon - Migrating to Linux
> >and killing Windows one PC at a time.

With a python script? ;o)

(a former friend & colleague, Chris Lightfoot[1] wrote evil.c one day; I
mirror it at http://hendricks.amyl.org.uk/~adam/tmp/evil.c-txt --
to Debianize a FBSD box. Console server *highly* recommended. It
worked the few times we used it)


[1] 
http://www.ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20070305-chris_lightfoot_1978-2007.html

-- 
War is Peace   Freedom is Slavery   Ignorance is Strength
1984
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Andrea Crotti]

On 03/19/2012 11:25 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

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On Mar 17, 2012, at 04:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:


Next step for me may be to learn more about how the unittests fit
within their framework so I can create some.

It's *relatively* simple.  Essentially all unittests live in a test_foo.py
module inside a tests/ directory (which has an __init__.py so it's a
package).  I generally name unittest.TestCase subclasses as TestFoo and
individual tests inside there as test_foo() methods.  There are lots of
examples spread throughout.  It's only a little extra work if you have to
create a new tests/ subdirectory or test_foo.py module, but again, it should
be pretty straightforward.

These all get auto-discovered by the zope.testing framework, so there's
nothing else necessary to hook it all up.  The one other tricky thing is the
layers, which are a zope.testing mechanism to share more generic resources
among a suite of tests.  E.g. if you need the rest server to be started, you'd
use the RESTLayer (see mailman.testing.layers for what's currently defined).
To enable a layer, you just need to set the `layer` attribute of the TestFoo
class.  Almost all the tests will require at least the ConfigLayer since that
brings up the Zope component architecture, connfiguration system, etc.

zope.testing is a bit weird here because the normal rules of subclasses don't
actually apply.  E.g. the LMTPLayer derives from ConfigLayer which derives
from MockAndMonkeyLayer.  All the appropriate setUp()s get called by
zope.testing so you don't need to up-call explicitly in the layer class.  Yes,
this kind of sucks since it's magical, and it's one reason why eventually I'd
like to switch to something like testresources and a more sane testing
framework, but that's a lot of effort for little immediate value.

Note that doctests are all set up in test_documentation.py so they're not
really all that special.




Just as a suggestion, it would be nice to have a few lines in the 
documentation about this, something
like you just explained would be already quite good, since it's not so 
clear by just looking at the code..


Cheers,
Andrea

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Killing off Pipermail and the effects on scrubbing in Mailman 3

[Barry Warsaw]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Mar 17, 2012, at 04:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Next step for me may be to learn more about how the unittests fit
>within their framework so I can create some.

It's *relatively* simple.  Essentially all unittests live in a test_foo.py
module inside a tests/ directory (which has an __init__.py so it's a
package).  I generally name unittest.TestCase subclasses as TestFoo and
individual tests inside there as test_foo() methods.  There are lots of
examples spread throughout.  It's only a little extra work if you have to
create a new tests/ subdirectory or test_foo.py module, but again, it should
be pretty straightforward.

These all get auto-discovered by the zope.testing framework, so there's
nothing else necessary to hook it all up.  The one other tricky thing is the
layers, which are a zope.testing mechanism to share more generic resources
among a suite of tests.  E.g. if you need the rest server to be started, you'd
use the RESTLayer (see mailman.testing.layers for what's currently defined).
To enable a layer, you just need to set the `layer` attribute of the TestFoo
class.  Almost all the tests will require at least the ConfigLayer since that
brings up the Zope component architecture, connfiguration system, etc.

zope.testing is a bit weird here because the normal rules of subclasses don't
actually apply.  E.g. the LMTPLayer derives from ConfigLayer which derives
from MockAndMonkeyLayer.  All the appropriate setUp()s get called by
zope.testing so you don't need to up-call explicitly in the layer class.  Yes,
this kind of sucks since it's magical, and it's one reason why eventually I'd
like to switch to something like testresources and a more sane testing
framework, but that's a lot of effort for little immediate value.

Note that doctests are all set up in test_documentation.py so they're not
really all that special.

>Also, I need to figure out a better development platform for Windows
>boxes. I had a perfect opportunity to scrap Windows all together when
>I had to recover from a hard drive crash on my main development box
>last year, but the dice fell the wrong way on that one.

There are lots of options here.  As mentioned, virtualbox should be a good
option, and you can probably use something like wubi to create an Ubuntu
desktop running along side Windows.  Of course, all the Linuxes should give
you a way to dual-boot your Windows machine if you're so inclined.  You may
even be able to boot off a USB drive or stick, though that will be slower.
Commercial options such as VMware are also a possibility, though of course you
should try the free options first. :)

>Maybe I can organize a sprint at the next PyCon - Migrating to Linux
>and killing Windows one PC at a time.

Definitely. :)

- -Barry
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