Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
Ashish Kumar writes: > I was talking about a case where user needs to directly sends the > member lists[info about the members like name, email ids, etc.] to > some other email id's Yes, I understand that. There's a context for all this though. Mailman is an *open source* project. Some of us are free software advocates, who do this because we're trying to change the rules by which our world manages its software assets. Some of us are open source advocates, who see the question as a purely economic one of "faster, better, cheaper: we should not need to choose". For those of you still in college or graduate school, there's some bitter history here that I hope you never have a need to relive. But one thing we all agree on is that our software should empower our users to address their own needs. PDF is a proprietary format; it is owned, lock, stock and most popular implementation by the same company that had a visiting programmer arrested in the U.S. for publications outside U.S. More important for the current application, Adobe has also released buggy versions of its popular Acrobat Reader that crashed a supposedly advanced operating system (Windows NT) on documents that they acknowledged to conform to their own PDF standard. However, they WONTFIXed that bug because Adobe's products never used that particular idiom (and perhaps because Ghostscript, then the most popular alternative to Adobe Postscript products, did use it). So, in the end, supplying a PDF option helps to lock our users in to dependency on proprietary software and standards that they cannot change and which do not empower them to work faster, better, and cheaper. It's a difficult judgment whether the convenience of supplying output in this extremely popular format outweighs the effect of encouraging dependency. Sumana made an important point that perhaps I was overestimating the technical skills of the users being targeted by the feature. Perhaps, but if so, they'll tell us about it. What I advocate is that we not *underestimate* their potential for growth, nor close off the avenue to making the software and its output do what *they* want, rather than what *we* guess they want. Wearing my mentor hat: BTW, once again you haven't specified your case carefully enough for others to judge whether PDF is needed. Really, what purpose would not be well-served with a restructured text table directly insertend in the email, or a csv attachment, or an HTML table in HTML mail? Why PDF? Your "send the list" use case is no help in judging: those other three formats I just mentioned also present the list to an arbitrary group of recipients via email. Sumana presented a well-specified use case: formatting a list so that it can easily be presented to Google Docs to create a permission for a large group. That allows me to decide, "no PDF!" because I'm sure Google Docs would cough a hairball if she fed it PDF! Steve ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
Hi All, I was talking about a case where user needs to directly sends the member lists[info about the members like name, email ids, etc.] to some other email id's But yes stephen made it clear that It would be trivial to use excel like application for exporting csv into pdf's . So we can use the csv export which is already there or make a generic export view like a dropdown having some options like pdf, csv, txt etc. Thank You Ashish Kumar ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
Adam McGreggor writes: > IMPORTDATA [for (c|t)sv]: > https://support.google.com/docs/answer/3093335?hl=en > > IMPORTHTML [for tables/lists]: > https://support.google.com/docs/answer/3093339?hl=en > > Could either of those be an option (steer: user interface has PRODUCE > A SPREADSHEET/EXPORT TO GDOCS)? Both of those look a lot more like it for my taste. Steve ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
Sumana Harihareswara writes: > Stephen, I suspect you are overestimating the technical skill of > some members of communities that want to use Mailman. I doubt it. My point is that we're talking about the PDF proposal, not the CSV feature. I may be underestimating the ability of programs other than printer drivers to do useful things with PDF, but in my experience printing is about all you can do unless you have a full suite of Adobe tools. Note that if you download CSV on most modern desktops, you will automatically be dropped into a spreadsheet program. So I would suppose that the workflow is 1. Click on "output member list" button in Mailman 2. Button down on File in Excel 3. Drag to print, release 4. Click on "output PDF" button 5. Type in file name (these programs, or the mail authors, usually have horribly bad suggestions for the file names). 6. Click Save button. > > How is it helpful? > Here's a use case I ran into in December: I was editing a private > document in Google Drive and wanted to share it with about 40 > people, all of whom were on the same email thread as me. I ended up > spending many tedious minutes copying and pasting email addresses > into the "Share" dialog box in Google Drive. If I were a list owner > for a community that used Google Drive, I bet this sort of need > would crop up several times per year, and I'd wish there were an > easy way for me to import that membership roster into a Google > Drive permissions list. I do not for one second doubt the utility of file output of membership rosters in a convenient, Microsoft-compatible format. But with CSV, we already have that. It's the utility of *PDF* that I'm questioning. > I have, as an event organizer, seen situations where venue > managers, school administrators, and similar bureaucrats demanded > PDFs. Me, too, in fact I do it myself in preference to working with .doc. But are list managers really likely to be so untechnical as to be unable to produce PDF from CSV? Also, are these PDFs going to be *just* "Display Name ", or are they going to contain other information? Generating CSV makes it easy to delete columns and rows as appropriate, or add them by hand. PDF, OTOH, is basically an uneditable blob. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 10:36:57AM -0400, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> Here's a use case I ran into in December: I was editing a private
> document in Google Drive and wanted to share it with about 40 people,
> all of whom were on the same email thread as me. I ended up spending
> many tedious minutes copying and pasting email addresses into the
> "Share" dialog box in Google Drive.
My workflow for that is open the mail, copy all the recipients, paste
in to the (advance) share dialog. But that is an annoyance.
Particularly if I need to revoke 187 other users first…
> If I were a list owner for a
> community that used Google Drive, I bet this sort of need would crop up
> several times per year, and I'd wish there were an easy way for me to
> import that membership roster into a Google Drive permissions list.
I'd suggest (at a later stage / as an extra plugin) something that
uses the G-docs permissions:insert api function might be useful:
https://developers.google.com/drive/v2/reference/permissions/insert
something that delivers to the user something to copy/paste and run
in their browser ("give list-members access to this Google Drive
Folder/Document").
--
The University of California Department of Statistics...
where mean is normal, and deviation standard
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 10:36:57AM -0400, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: > Ashish, can you talk a little bit more about the current workflow that > these folks are using (the ones in the scenario you suggested)? I'm used > to seeing word processing and spreadsheet applications that can easily > export to PDF. But maybe you know of a ton of people who need to create > PDFs from list membership rosters, and right now that's a 10-step > process for them (including "import into a Google doc, fiddle with > headers, hit Export and tweak options x and y and z"), and you have an > idea for how we can make that a 4-step process. Google Sheets (or whatever they're called this week) support a couple of functions that could hit the relevant API: IMPORTDATA [for (c|t)sv]: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/3093335?hl=en IMPORTHTML [for tables/lists]: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/3093339?hl=en Could either of those be an option (steer: user interface has PRODUCE A SPREADSHEET/EXPORT TO GDOCS)? > Here's a use case I ran into in December: I was editing a private > document in Google Drive and wanted to share it with about 40 people, > all of whom were on the same email thread as me. I ended up spending > many tedious minutes copying and pasting email addresses into the > "Share" dialog box in Google Drive. If I were a list owner for a > community that used Google Drive, I bet this sort of need would crop up > several times per year, and I'd wish there were an easy way for me to > import that membership roster into a Google Drive permissions list. Google Drive works extremely well with Google Groups… funny that. Part of that is why for one of the things I do, we've migrated over to Google Apps; for better integration / easier sharing. -- "what was asked of the Director in this case was not a statement of prosecuting policy but a proleptic grant of immunity from prosecution. That, I am quite satisfied, the Director had no power to give.” -- Bingham of Cornhill, R (Pretty) v DPP [2002] 1 AC 800 ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
On 19/04/15 11:08, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Ashish Kumar writes: > > > of extending this feature request to pdf > > I don't understand the motivation for this. I guess it will look a > tiny bit nicer when printed on paper, but it's basically an opaque, > uneditable format which can surely be trivially produced by anyone who > has space and power to run a printer. Stephen, I suspect you are overestimating the technical skill of some members of communities that want to use Mailman. But let's find out... Ashish, can you talk a little bit more about the current workflow that these folks are using (the ones in the scenario you suggested)? I'm used to seeing word processing and spreadsheet applications that can easily export to PDF. But maybe you know of a ton of people who need to create PDFs from list membership rosters, and right now that's a 10-step process for them (including "import into a Google doc, fiddle with headers, hit Export and tweak options x and y and z"), and you have an idea for how we can make that a 4-step process. > > and sharing the list of members on drive, > > What's "drive"? Probably Google Drive? > > as It will be very helpful for communities which have a lot of > > volunteers, organizers. > > How is it helpful? Here's a use case I ran into in December: I was editing a private document in Google Drive and wanted to share it with about 40 people, all of whom were on the same email thread as me. I ended up spending many tedious minutes copying and pasting email addresses into the "Share" dialog box in Google Drive. If I were a list owner for a community that used Google Drive, I bet this sort of need would crop up several times per year, and I'd wish there were an easy way for me to import that membership roster into a Google Drive permissions list. > > Scenario: > > Suppose a team of volunteers working in a country/state like > > bloodconnect in india. For an activity like camps [in case of blood > > connect], Owner need to send a pdf > > Why does the owner need to do that? I think that plain text (as Tom > Browder suggests) is almost surely more useful in every way. CSV, on > the other hand, has the advantage that it can be accurately read into > a spreadsheet which is "the" way non-geeky people manage tables. I have, as an event organizer, seen situations where venue managers, school administrators, and similar bureaucrats demanded PDFs. > > of all the volunteers working in a specific area to the area head > > either by drive or mail. It would be very convenient if we provide > > these option as a UI in postorius itself. > > Looks like a YAGNI to me, so it would just clutter the UI. Ashish, here's my opinion, for the use cases I've dealt with: CSV export is super helpful, plain text export is also very helpful, and PDF export is somewhat helpful. Answering my question will definitely help. :) -- Sumana Harihareswara http://brainwane.net ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
[Mailman-Developers] Regarding Csv Export for list owner in postorius
Ashish Kumar writes: > of extending this feature request to pdf I don't understand the motivation for this. I guess it will look a tiny bit nicer when printed on paper, but it's basically an opaque, uneditable format which can surely be trivially produced by anyone who has space and power to run a printer. > and sharing the list of members on drive, What's "drive"? > as It will be very helpful for communities which have a lot of > volunteers, organizers. How is it helpful? > Scenario: > Suppose a team of volunteers working in a country/state like > bloodconnect in india. For an activity like camps [in case of blood > connect], Owner need to send a pdf Why does the owner need to do that? I think that plain text (as Tom Browder suggests) is almost surely more useful in every way. CSV, on the other hand, has the advantage that it can be accurately read into a spreadsheet which is "the" way non-geeky people manage tables. > of all the volunteers working in a specific area to the area head > either by drive or mail. It would be very convenient if we provide > these option as a UI in postorius itself. Looks like a YAGNI to me, so it would just clutter the UI. ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
