Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 09/06/2016 05:59 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> 
> Now that I understand them, I think I'll start using MIME digests them for
> myself when I can. And I like offering the option. The question is more,
> what would I use as the default? And I think honestly that putting everyone
> on MIME digests would substantially decrease readership on this list. We'd
> be "hiding" posts in attachments--essentially adding a click or two before
> people can see them; and since the readers on this list are also the
> authors, that will discourage writing, too. Too risky!


As I've posted before, how the MIME digest is rendered is highly
dependent upon the user's MUA (aka mail client, aka mail reader). Some
MUAs do an excelent job of displaying all the messages inline while
allowing opening and replying to individual messages just as if they'd
been received individually. Others are a complete disaster. Mane are in
between.

Thus, each user has to see how MIME digests are rendered in her
preferred MUA and chose MIME or plain accordingly.

On my digestable lists, I default to MIME on the theory that those that
don't like it will complain and I can tell them how to switch. If you
default to plain, digest members may never know there is another choice
that they may prefer.

However, this decision is also dependent on the list and its user
community and defaulting to MIME may not be appropriate in situations
other than mine.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Some lists no longer archiving new messages

2016-09-06 Thread Beu, Ed (DOA) 
Thank you Mark, just had to change owner from Root to Mailman, deleted the 
shunted messages that I had already imported manually and ran the unshunt 
command on the rest!

Worked like a charm! 

Regards,
~Ed

Ed Beu, System Programmer
Dept. of Administration, ETS
(907)269-6790 ed@alaska.gov

-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+ed.beu=alaska@python.org] 
On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2016 7:44 AM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Some lists no longer archiving new messages

On 09/02/2016 03:31 PM, Beu, Ed (DOA) wrote:
> 
> The few lists that I have 'imported' mail from Thunderbird into Mailman 
> archives will not archive new messages.


I suspect a permissions issue on archives/private/LIST.mbox/LIST.mbox,
but there should be errors and tracebacks in mailman's error log and
shunted messages in the shunt queue. If you have the RedHat package,
these are /var/log/mailman/error and /var/spool/mailman/shunt respectively.

If you can't figure out what the problem is from the error log, post the
info here. Once you have fixed the problem you can run unshunt
(/usr/lib/mailman/bin/unshunt) to archive the shunted messages, but
first you may want to examine them with /usr/lib/mailman/bin/show_qfiles
to ensure that all of them should be unshunted and there are none from
older, unrelated errors.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Tanstaafl 
On 9/2/2016 6:39 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 02:00 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
>>
>> I requested a similar feature a while ago:
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-December/078192.html
> 
> 
> And my responses at
> 
> and
> 
> still hold. Read the whole thread.

And an even earlier thread that contained a discussion about this
(comments of mine) from December 2009, regarding how Yahoo Digests
provided exactly the behavior you are talking about:

https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/msg55751.html
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Lucio Chiappetti 

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, Matt Morgan wrote:


Now that I understand them, I think I'll start using MIME digests them for
myself when I can. And I like offering the option. The question is more,
what would I use as the default? And I think honestly that putting everyone
on MIME digests would substantially decrease readership on this list.


On the list I manage I do not use digests as default, although I recommend 
them. Digests have one advantage which is also a disadvantage under 
certain situations.


- Digests are sent with all mails packed together either at a predefined
  time (usually once per day at midday) OR when they exceeed a given size

- ... so you will NOT receive messages in real time

- this can be an advantage on lists with a large traffic and/or a large
  amount of "noise" (uninteresting messages). I do advise using digests
  for the internal discussion list of our nationwide organization (several
  hundred members). Reading messages once per day cools down the
  discussion. It also diminishes the disturbance of receiving a lot of
  mail asking for attention (I do use digests for "professional
  wide-spectrum" lists, like this one where I can discard a fraction of
  messages as not interesting or not concerning me, usually just by
  scanning through the subjects)

- this is a disadvantage for professional narrow-spectrum lists where
  quick reply is required. In this case I do avoid digests so that I
  can receive messages in real time (mailman is still good in providing
  a common reference archive for all members). Usually these lists
  have few members, and act orderly (no noise, no flames).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Matt Morgan 
On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Lucio Chiappetti 
wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Sep 2016, Matt Morgan wrote:
>
> The eventual publication looks a lot like a mailman digest, and that's
>> what I'm switching it to.
>>
>
> I see that over the weekend there was some discussion about digests, not
> only in this thread !
>
> I understand that mailman can do digests as a series of MIME attachments
>> to the TOC email, one for each posting. I don't think that's going to work
>> for this crowd, although I'm not sure.
>>
>
> Personally I do use MIME digests (not plain text ones) for almost all the
> lists I'm subscribed to (actually ALL which allow it). But then my MUA
> (Alpine) with some customization (including a formail-based shell script)
> can turn the MIME digests into a temporary mail folder, where I can access
> each posting as a normal e-mail.  And even if I would not have my scripts,
> I could still natively view the attachment index and access the RFC822
> attachment one by one as a normal e-mail.
>
> I love how you subscribe to a digest then use your mailer to extract
individual messages. This is real power-user territory!

Now that I understand them, I think I'll start using MIME digests them for
myself when I can. And I like offering the option. The question is more,
what would I use as the default? And I think honestly that putting everyone
on MIME digests would substantially decrease readership on this list. We'd
be "hiding" posts in attachments--essentially adding a click or two before
people can see them; and since the readers on this list are also the
authors, that will discourage writing, too. Too risky!
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