Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce email going to list server admin not list owner...

[The Mailing List System Admin]

Thanks to both Mark (MS) and Stephen for their replies.

MS> All I can suggest is you look at your MTA logs and try to
MS> determine to what message this is a response and what generated
MS> this message.

I track down the original message id, here's what I found in the MTA
logs...

1) Msg from sally.non.member@ to the.list-owner@

Now the 'Added to list' subject line starts to make sense.

2) Msg from mailman-bounces to the list owners which so happens to
   include Joe.Anybody who is both a subscriber and an owner of the
   list.

So it looks like message bounces to a list owner go to the list server
admin, which is definitely desirable and appropriate.

To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Use the logs, Luke -- *all* of the
logs."  Thanks for helping me figure this out.

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[Mailman-Users] Bounce email going to list server admin not list owner...

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

The Mailing List System Admin writes:

 > Didn't have luck researching this question.  I (the list server admin)
 > recently received the following bounce notice:

 > > From joe.anyb...@example.edu Wed Feb 24 15:55:18 2016
 > > Return-Path: 
 > > From: "Anybody, Joe" 
 > > To: Xyz.Forum 
 > > Subject: Automatic reply: Added to the list
 > > Thread-Topic: Added to the list
 > > X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All
 > > X-MS-Exchange-Inbox-Rules-Loop: joe.anyb...@example.edu
 > > auto-submitted: auto-generated
 > > x-ms-exchange-generated-message-source: Mailbox Rules Agent
 > > Errors-To: mailman-l...@lists.example.edu
 > > Sender: "Mailman" 
 > > Subject: Automatic reply: Added to the list
 > >  > > I am out of the office...
 > 
 > I don't understand why this bounce went to the server admin list...
 >
 >  mailman-bounces: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces mailman"

Because it was explicitly addressed to that mailbox.

 > and not the bounce address for the specific list involved...
 > 
 >  xyz.forum-bounces: |"/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces xyz.forum"
 >

This isn't a bounce.  A bounce is an *undeliverable* message returned
to sender, and indicates that the user's mailbox is temporarily or
permanently invalid.

The message was delivered, and there is no need for bounce processing.
This mailbox is clearly not invalid.  The user is just ignoring it,
and telling people not to expect intelligent responses for a while.

 > I did a dump of the "Xyz.Forum" list's config for what appear
 > to be the relevant parameters:

They're not, because this isn't a bounce.

 > It is apparent from the "To:" that the name of the list involved was
 > known.

I'm not sure why this user's "vacation" message was addressed to
"mailman-bounces".  Probably because subscription notifications are
handled at the server, rather than the list, level.  It does appear
from such messages I have in my archives that messages from the
software are "From" the site rather than "From" the list.

I doubt the format of "you were subscribed" messages is going to
change for Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative on that).  It might be
a reasonable feature request for Mailman 3.  However, it would have to
be examined carefully for the possibility of creating mail loops or
other forms of misaddressing.

 > I don't mind getting bounces where a specific list is unknown, but
 > list specific bounces really need to go to the list owner.

At bottom, this one is a "people" problem.  Somebody subscribed Joe
Anybody to a list while he was on "out of office".  That's a no-no in
any case -- this mailbox is now going to be spamming the list with
"out of the office" messages.  Vacation agents don't work and play
nicely with mailing lists.  Somebody ought to tune yours to not
respond to list traffic, or disable it altogether.

There are three header fields that could be used for this purpose:
X-Mailman-Version, X-List-Administrivia, and List-ID.  I think
X-Mailman-Version is present in all Mailman traffic (hardcoded).
X-List-Administrivia won't appear in posts, and List-ID *should* be
present but it is a configuration option.

Also, this kind of event could in fact indicate a site-wide problem,
in the case of a "joe job" where the victim is signed up for numerous
mailing lists to annoy them (and perhaps execute a DoS attack if
there's a limit on the size of the mailbox).
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce email going to list server admin not list owner...

[Mark Sapiro]

On 02/24/2016 02:25 PM, The Mailing List System Admin wrote:
> Didn't have luck researching this question.  I (the list server admin)
> recently received the following bounce notice:
> 
>> From joe.anyb...@example.edu Wed Feb 24 15:55:18 2016
>> Return-Path: 
>> From: "Anybody, Joe" 
>> To: Xyz.Forum 
>> Subject: Automatic reply: Added to the list
>> Thread-Topic: Added to the list
>> X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All
>> X-MS-Exchange-Inbox-Rules-Loop: joe.anyb...@example.edu
>> auto-submitted: auto-generated
>> x-ms-exchange-generated-message-source: Mailbox Rules Agent
>> Errors-To: mailman-l...@lists.example.edu
>> Sender: "Mailman" 
>> Subject: Automatic reply: Added to the list
>>
>> I am out of the office...
> 
> I don't understand why this bounce went to the server admin list...
> 
> mailman-bounces: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces mailman"
> 
> and not the bounce address for the specific list involved...
> 
> xyz.forum-bounces: |"/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces xyz.forum"
> 
> It is apparent from the "To:" that the name of the list involved was
> known.



it is unclear to me what is going on here. I.e. this is an out of office
reply from "Anybody, Joe"  and it is being sent
to Xyz.Forum .

The questions are to what message is this out of office reply replying,
and is mailman-bounces@... the appropriate address for this or is this a
case of an out-of-office responder replying to an inappropriate address.

Note that monthly password reminders are sent from the mailman list as
they are not necessarily specific to a single list, so out-of office
replies may goto the mailman list in these cases, but this does not seem
to be a response to a password reminder.

I do not recognize the Subject "Automatic reply: Added to the list", so
I don't know what this message is.

All I can suggest is you look at your MTA logs and try to determine to
what message this is a response and what generated this message. Then we
may be able to go further with this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Bounce email going to list server admin not list owner...

[The Mailing List System Admin]

Didn't have luck researching this question.  I (the list server admin)
recently received the following bounce notice:


From joe.anyb...@example.edu Wed Feb 24 15:55:18 2016
Return-Path: 
From: "Anybody, Joe" 
To: Xyz.Forum 
Subject: Automatic reply: Added to the list
Thread-Topic: Added to the list
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All
X-MS-Exchange-Inbox-Rules-Loop: joe.anyb...@example.edu
auto-submitted: auto-generated
x-ms-exchange-generated-message-source: Mailbox Rules Agent
Errors-To: mailman-l...@lists.example.edu
Sender: "Mailman" 
Subject: Automatic reply: Added to the list

I am out of the office...


I don't understand why this bounce went to the server admin list...

mailman-bounces: "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces mailman"

and not the bounce address for the specific list involved...

xyz.forum-bounces: |"/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces xyz.forum"

It is apparent from the "To:" that the name of the list involved was
known.  I did a dump of the "Xyz.Forum" list's config for what appear
to be the relevant parameters:

bounce_processing = True
bounce_score_threshold = 5.0
bounce_info_stale_after = 7
bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings = 3
bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval = 7
bounce_unrecognized_goes_to_list_owner = True
bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment = 1
bounce_notify_owner_on_disable = True
bounce_notify_owner_on_removal = True

And I searched the logs for entries specific to this list and/or this
particular subscriber:

subscribe:Jan 29 08:51:54 2016 (22963) xyz.forum: pending Joe Anybody 
  rl-cz364x1.ad.example.edu

subscribe:Jan 29 08:54:30 2016 (23022) xyz.forum: new Joe Anybody 
, via admin approval

vette:Jan 29 08:53:18 2016 (3783) xyz.forum: held subscription request from 
joe.anyb...@example.edu

There is nothing in the `bounce` itself log that appears to be related
to either.

I don't mind getting bounces where a specific list is unknown, but
list specific bounces really need to go to the list owner.  We have
far too many lists to do otherwise.

   - Using Mailman version: 2.1.20
   - Python 2.4.3 (#1, Oct 23 2012, 22:02:41)
   - Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server release 5.11 (Tikanga)

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  the UNH Mailing List System Admins
  Bill Costa, senior admin
  (603) 862-3056
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