[Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
Hi, I recently set up a Ubuntu 14.04 server with Mailman 2.1.16. It took a while for me to configure because I needed to modify the setup procedure from Ubuntu's instructions to what the mailman documentation suggested (no use of the postfix-to-mailman.py script). At any rate, my main goal has been to use mailman for an Indian Guides group, which for years has just been an email list of about 50 people. Mailman seemed like a great option to help ensure that all of the members are accounted for in each email and to have archives available. The problem that I'm having is that for some people on the list, they don't reliably get their emails. Mostly, this is from members that are on gmail.com or hotmail.com or in some cases ymail.com. The lost emails get stuck in their spam filter, and in some cases hotmail users don't get their emails at all. I did some testing with a practice list I created (sending to my own set of yahoo, gmail accounts), where my yahoo account was sending to members on a gmail account. I found no issue sending directly from yahoo to gmail, but from yahoo-mail list-gmail got caught in the gmail's spam filter. The gmail account spam folder would flag it and give me a note something to the effect of The sender's yahoo.com address could not be confirmed. Furthermore, in the gmail account, I can mark the email as Not SPAM but that doesn't help on subsequent emails. As an experiment, I changed a few settings (from default Yes to No), but these didn't seem to make a difference: - Should messages from this mailing list include the RFC 2369 (i.e. List-*) headers? Yes is highly recommended. - Should postings include the List-Post: header? - Should the Sender header be rewritten for this mailing list to avoid stray bounces? Yes is recommended. My search for SPAM hasn't helped (most SPAM issues are related to actual SPAM getting in from user accounts). Have others encountered this type of issue? Are there any settings I can use or steps I can take to help resolve this? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, -Alan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
On 8/28/2014 1:58 AM, Alan Meyer wrote: Hi, I recently set up a Ubuntu 14.04 server with Mailman 2.1.16. It took a while for me to configure because I needed to modify the setup procedure from Ubuntu's instructions to what the mailman documentation suggested (no use of the postfix-to-mailman.py script). At any rate, my main goal has been to use mailman for an Indian Guides group, which for years has just been an email list of about 50 people. Mailman seemed like a great option to help ensure that all of the members are accounted for in each email and to have archives available. The problem that I'm having is that for some people on the list, they don't reliably get their emails. Mostly, this is from members that are on gmail.com or hotmail.com or in some cases ymail.com. The lost emails get stuck in their spam filter, and in some cases hotmail users don't get their emails at all. I did some testing with a practice list I created (sending to my own set of yahoo, gmail accounts), where my yahoo account was sending to members on a gmail account. I found no issue sending directly from yahoo to gmail, but from yahoo-mail list-gmail got caught in the gmail's spam filter. The gmail account spam folder would flag it and give me a note something to the effect of The sender's yahoo.com address could not be confirmed. Furthermore, in the gmail account, I can mark the email as Not SPAM but that doesn't help on subsequent emails. As an experiment, I changed a few settings (from default Yes to No), but these didn't seem to make a difference: - Should messages from this mailing list include the RFC 2369 (i.e. List-*) headers? Yes is highly recommended. - Should postings include the List-Post: header? - Should the Sender header be rewritten for this mailing list to avoid stray bounces? Yes is recommended. My search for SPAM hasn't helped (most SPAM issues are related to actual SPAM getting in from user accounts). Have others encountered this type of issue? Are there any settings I can use or steps I can take to help resolve this? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, -Alan Alan, I think that you are experiencing DMARC problems. You need the latest Mailman (2.1.18-1) to handle DMARC issues. See the archives of this list from this past April onward to read about DMARC and Mailman. --Barry Finkel -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
DMARC aside, GMAIL users who don't wish their mail lists to end up in SPAM can easily set up a filter whose sole action is to mark the item not spam. It's been a facility gmail provides long before the DMARC fiasco. Settings-Filters-new filter-fill in criteria, probably the mail list from - Never send it to Spam Keith Bierman khb...@gmail.com kbiermank AIM 303 997 2749 On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Barry S. Finkel bsfin...@att.net wrote: On 8/28/2014 1:58 AM, Alan Meyer wrote: Hi, I recently set up a Ubuntu 14.04 server with Mailman 2.1.16. It took a while for me to configure because I needed to modify the setup procedure from Ubuntu's instructions to what the mailman documentation suggested (no use of the postfix-to-mailman.py script). At any rate, my main goal has been to use mailman for an Indian Guides group, which for years has just been an email list of about 50 people. Mailman seemed like a great option to help ensure that all of the members are accounted for in each email and to have archives available. The problem that I'm having is that for some people on the list, they don't reliably get their emails. Mostly, this is from members that are on gmail.com or hotmail.com or in some cases ymail.com. The lost emails get stuck in their spam filter, and in some cases hotmail users don't get their emails at all. I did some testing with a practice list I created (sending to my own set of yahoo, gmail accounts), where my yahoo account was sending to members on a gmail account. I found no issue sending directly from yahoo to gmail, but from yahoo-mail list-gmail got caught in the gmail's spam filter. The gmail account spam folder would flag it and give me a note something to the effect of The sender's yahoo.com address could not be confirmed. Furthermore, in the gmail account, I can mark the email as Not SPAM but that doesn't help on subsequent emails. As an experiment, I changed a few settings (from default Yes to No), but these didn't seem to make a difference: - Should messages from this mailing list include the RFC 2369 (i.e. List-*) headers? Yes is highly recommended. - Should postings include the List-Post: header? - Should the Sender header be rewritten for this mailing list to avoid stray bounces? Yes is recommended. My search for SPAM hasn't helped (most SPAM issues are related to actual SPAM getting in from user accounts). Have others encountered this type of issue? Are there any settings I can use or steps I can take to help resolve this? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, -Alan Alan, I think that you are experiencing DMARC problems. You need the latest Mailman (2.1.18-1) to handle DMARC issues. See the archives of this list from this past April onward to read about DMARC and Mailman. --Barry Finkel -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/ mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ khbkhb%40gmail.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
Hi Alan: Are you aware of the DMARC issue that list owners are facing when allowing Yahoo and AOL members to post to a list? Please see the following: http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458 Are you using the From_Is_List option on the general options page? If you are, what setting do you have it set to? We were/are having issues emailing Gmail users when using the mung setting so we are now instructing our mailman clients to use the Wrap Message setting. Google considers any email that breaks the 5322 RFC standard to be a violation of their best practices for sending bulk mail. Also you can use the following form to talk to Google: https://support.google.com/mail/contact/msgdelivery https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new?rd=1 Here is their Bulk Senders Guidelines: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126 Brian Carpenter EMWD.com Providing Cloud and Mailman hosting Services and more for many years. T: 336.755.0685 E: br...@emwd.com www.emwd.com www.mailmanhost.com -Original Message- From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users- bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Alan Meyer Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:58 AM To: Mailman-Users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters Hi, I recently set up a Ubuntu 14.04 server with Mailman 2.1.16. It took a while for me to configure because I needed to modify the setup procedure from Ubuntu's instructions to what the mailman documentation suggested (no use of the postfix-to-mailman.py script). At any rate, my main goal has been to use mailman for an Indian Guides group, which for years has just been an email list of about 50 people. Mailman seemed like a great option to help ensure that all of the members are accounted for in each email and to have archives available. The problem that I'm having is that for some people on the list, they don't reliably get their emails. Mostly, this is from members that are on gmail.com or hotmail.com or in some cases ymail.com. The lost emails get stuck in their spam filter, and in some cases hotmail users don't get their emails at all. I did some testing with a practice list I created (sending to my own set of yahoo, gmail accounts), where my yahoo account was sending to members on a gmail account. I found no issue sending directly from yahoo to gmail, but from yahoo-mail list-gmail got caught in the gmail's spam filter. The gmail account spam folder would flag it and give me a note something to the effect of The sender's yahoo.com address could not be confirmed. Furthermore, in the gmail account, I can mark the email as Not SPAM but that doesn't help on subsequent emails. As an experiment, I changed a few settings (from default Yes to No), but these didn't seem to make a difference: - Should messages from this mailing list include the RFC 2369 (i.e. List-*) headers? Yes is highly recommended. - Should postings include the List-Post: header? - Should the Sender header be rewritten for this mailing list to avoid stray bounces? Yes is recommended. My search for SPAM hasn't helped (most SPAM issues are related to actual SPAM getting in from user accounts). Have others encountered this type of issue? Are there any settings I can use or steps I can take to help resolve this? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, -Alan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman- users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman- users/brian%40emwd.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
On 29 Aug 2014, at 1:25 am, Brian Carpenter br...@emwd.com wrote: We were/are having issues emailing Gmail users when using the mung setting so we are now instructing our mailman clients to use the Wrap Message setting. Google considers any email that breaks the 5322 RFC standard to be a violation of their best practices for sending bulk mail. Also you can use the following form to talk to Google: What were the gmail issues, Brian? We're using munging on yahoo and aol messages, and haven't seen any problems so far, apart from inconsistent Reply All behaviour of some mail clients. Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
-Original Message- From: Peter Shute [mailto:psh...@nuw.org.au] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 1:07 PM To: Brian Carpenter Cc: Alan Meyer; Mailman-Users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters On 29 Aug 2014, at 1:25 am, Brian Carpenter br...@emwd.com wrote: We were/are having issues emailing Gmail users when using the mung setting so we are now instructing our mailman clients to use the Wrap Message setting. Google considers any email that breaks the 5322 RFC standard to be a violation of their best practices for sending bulk mail. Also you can use the following form to talk to Google: What were the gmail issues, Brian? We're using munging on yahoo and aol messages, and haven't seen any problems so far, apart from inconsistent Reply All behaviour of some mail clients. Peter Shute Sporadic blocking from Gmail's mail servers but with no error message. Since Google considers breaking 5322 a bad practice, I am guessing that using mung may be related to these random blocking. But I am guessing but since recommending to our clients on our mailman servers, to start using wrap message via the Sender Filters page, we have seen Gmail delivery improvements and on some servers, the random blocking has cleared up entirely. I have submitted a ticket with Google but am still waiting to hear back from them so hopefully I will get a definitive answer to what was going on. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years. T: 336.755.0685 E: br...@emwd.com www.emwd.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
So no bouncing? That's good, it means our Yahoo/AOL subscribers can't do any damage, and have another reason to change addresses. I haven't tried the wrapping option, but I'm not keen on it because of anticipated client issues with them. Peter Shute -Original Message- From: Brian Carpenter [mailto:br...@emwd.com] Sent: Friday, 29 August 2014 3:23 AM To: Peter Shute Cc: 'Alan Meyer'; Mailman-Users@python.org Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters -Original Message- From: Peter Shute [mailto:psh...@nuw.org.au] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 1:07 PM To: Brian Carpenter Cc: Alan Meyer; Mailman-Users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters On 29 Aug 2014, at 1:25 am, Brian Carpenter br...@emwd.com wrote: We were/are having issues emailing Gmail users when using the mung setting so we are now instructing our mailman clients to use the Wrap Message setting. Google considers any email that breaks the 5322 RFC standard to be a violation of their best practices for sending bulk mail. Also you can use the following form to talk to Google: What were the gmail issues, Brian? We're using munging on yahoo and aol messages, and haven't seen any problems so far, apart from inconsistent Reply All behaviour of some mail clients. Peter Shute Sporadic blocking from Gmail's mail servers but with no error message. Since Google considers breaking 5322 a bad practice, I am guessing that using mung may be related to these random blocking. But I am guessing but since recommending to our clients on our mailman servers, to start using wrap message via the Sender Filters page, we have seen Gmail delivery improvements and on some servers, the random blocking has cleared up entirely. I have submitted a ticket with Google but am still waiting to hear back from them so hopefully I will get a definitive answer to what was going on. Brian Carpenter EMWD.com Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years. T: 336.755.0685 E: br...@emwd.com www.emwd.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
Alan Meyer writes: At any rate, my main goal has been to use mailman for an Indian Guides group, which for years has just been an email list of about 50 people. Mailman seemed like a great option to help ensure that all of the members are accounted for in each email and to have archives available. The Mailman developer community thanks you for the compliment! The problem that I'm having is that for some people on the list, they don't reliably get their emails. Mostly, this is from members that are on gmail.com or hotmail.com or in some cases ymail.com. Members who are sending from Gmail will never receive their own mail via the list. Gmail considers it a duplicate of the message in the Sent folder, and discards the list message. This is not what you are reporting, but may account for some of your members' reports. For the senders you mention above (gmail, hotmail, and ymail), none has a DMARC policy. (gmail and ymail have p=none, and hotmail doesn't have a policy at all.) For those senders, DMARC is not the reason your subscribers are losing mail. The most likely issue that you or your host can affect is failing to use DKIM and SPF to authenticate your list. However, if in ymail.com you are including yahoo.com, yahoo.com *does* have a p=reject policy, and most users on the large email providers will either not receive the mail at all (probably hotmail and ymail) or it will end up in Spam (most of the time for gmail). Mail sent from yahoo.com will definitely be discarded or rejected by many recipient's hosts, and GMail will put it in Spam even if it passes all their other filters. The lost emails get stuck in their spam filter, and in some cases hotmail users don't get their emails at all. I did some testing with a practice list I created (sending to my own set of yahoo, gmail accounts), where my yahoo account was sending to members on a gmail account. As mentioned above, yahoo.com != ymail.com. I recommend that you tell your Yahoo! users to get another mail account. Not only is it a PITA for everybody else to receive their mail, but the reason that Yahoo! uses p=reject is that they leaked several million users' contact lists to criminals. I don't know if they told the affected users that their data was leaked, but I hope so. I recommend using Mailman 2.1.18-1, and setting dmarc_moderation_action to 'Wrap Message'. This affects only yahoo.com and aol.com senders's messages, and a variable number of recipients whose email clients can't handle those messages easily (this is what Peter Shute is talking about, I can give you some details if you ask). I found no issue sending directly from yahoo to gmail, but from yahoo-mail list-gmail got caught in the gmail's spam filter. The gmail account spam folder would flag it and give me a note something to the effect of The sender's yahoo.com address could not be confirmed. Indeed, that looks like DMARC. Furthermore, in the gmail account, I can mark the email as Not SPAM but that doesn't help on subsequent emails. No, it won't, because yahoo.com has REAL problems with spam appearing to originate at yahoo.com. (The spammers have potential for delivery of millions of spam messages per minute, but they don't waste their resources on spoofing senders from domains using p=reject). As an experiment, I changed a few settings (from default Yes to No), but these didn't seem to make a difference: - Should messages from this mailing list include the RFC 2369 (i.e. List-*) headers? Yes is highly recommended. - Should postings include the List-Post: header? - Should the Sender header be rewritten for this mailing list to avoid stray bounces? Yes is recommended. None of these are relevant to spam filtering AFAIK (but I don't work for a large email provider so take that with a mineshaftful of salt). I think the most important steps you can take in general are (1) Have your MTA sign outgoing mailing list mail with DKIM. (2) Use SPF. (3) To mitigate the yahoo/aol p=reject policies, set dmarc_moderation_action to 'Wrap Message' (my preference, and according to Brian Carpenter's observations, GMail's as well), or to 'Munge From' (some people prefer this). If you don't know what MTA, DKIM, and SPF mean, you probably are using a hosting service. If they don't know what MTA, DKIM, and SPF mean, you should get a new one. (I like Brian Carpenter because he's often helpful to other users on this list, but I admit I've never actually used EMD, the hosting service he runs. FWIW, I'd say check them out. :-) If you want to know what all the acronyms stand for and what they are good for, feel free to ask. This is just the material I can think of as fast as I can type it. ;-) Except I can't say more about the Yahoo!/AOL contact list issues, just what I already wrote is public knowledge by now. Regards, Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing
