Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

For those who may have been tracking this saga:

My Mailman-SMTP problems stemmed from my non-root system accounts having no 
ability to resolve localhost to my machines IP address...because there was 
no non-root read permission set for /etc/hosts.  (My 'telnet localhost 25' 
tests were all previously run from the root account, and as soon as I 
finally ran it from a non-root account, then the problem root cause finally 
reared its simple, little, ugly head.)

Yes, this is a terribly disgusting thing to learn that I spent so much 
blood, sweat, and tears on such a silly system flaw.

-Matt


At 5/16/2005 06:57 PM, Matt England wrote:
>At 5/16/2005 09:45 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>Matt England wrote:
>>
>> >It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to
>> >figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to point
>> >Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).
>>
>>The symptoms you have described do not really arise at the level of
>>Mailman code, even in SMTPDirect.py. If this is not strictly a qmail
>>issue, the problems probably occur in the interface between the Python
>>library and qmail, not in Mailman. Did you update or change Python
>>coincident with the start of these troubles?
>
>Not that I'm aware of.
>
>Note that phpBB is experiencing similar problems, and it is php based and 
>not python based.
>
>This further points the finger at qmail...or at least both php-to-qmail 
>and python-to-qmail.
>
>Care to offer any suggestions about how I can isolate these php-to-qmail 
>and python-to-qmail problems...with like test scripts?  How do I write it, 
>and/or do simple, stand-alone scripts already exist?  Can someone write me one?
>
>I realize I'm asking a lot from a Mailman group to help solve an apparent 
>qmail problem...and for what it's worth, I just lobbed as massive email 
>over to the official qmail discussion list (qmail@list.cr.yp.to), too (I 
>had previously been posting to forum.qmailrocks.org).
>
>I'm also in discussion with Brad K. about a switch to postfix.
>
>(Note that another post shows how a 'telnet lists.biz2tek.com 25' outbound 
>email works ok.)
>
>>In another post, you mentioned using Sendmail.py. I hope you have read
>>and carefully considered all the comments in that module.
>
>Yes, I did.  Sendmail.py is only a temporary solution, possibly only for 
>debugging purposes so that I could prove that Mailman (and outbound email 
>in general) was working.
>
>-Matt

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Mark Sapiro]

Matt England wrote:
>
>Care to offer any suggestions about how I can isolate these php-to-qmail 
>and python-to-qmail problems...with like test scripts?  How do I write it, 
>and/or do simple, stand-alone scripts already exist?  Can someone write me one?
>

The following is an example of an interactive python session that sends
a message to two recipients in exactly the same way that SMTPDirect.py
does. Actual addresses and domains have been munged for privacy, but
the session works and causes the message to be sent via the smtp
server at 'localhost' via the default port (port = 0 to the connect
method says use the default which is 25).

The values assigned to SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT are from Defaults.py. If
you find you need to change them in any way to make this work, make
the same changes in mm_cfg.py.

msg can be as elaborate as you want.
the rcpts list should contain valid recipients - this is the only
change required for it to actually send mail.

$ python
Python 2.3.3 (#1, May  7 2004, 10:31:40)
[GCC 3.3.3 20040412 (Red Hat Linux 3.3.3-7)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import smtplib
>>> msg = """Subject: Test Message
... Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
... From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
... To: you
...
... The body
... """
>>> rcpts = ['[EMAIL PROTECTED]', '[EMAIL PROTECTED]']
>>> env = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
>>> SMTPHOST = 'localhost'
>>> SMTPPORT = 0
>>> x = smtplib.SMTP()
>>> x.connect(SMTPHOST, SMTPPORT)
(220, 'sb7.example.com ESMTP Sendmail 8.12.11/8.12.11; Mon, 16 May 2005
18:08:07 -0700')
>>> x.sendmail(env, rcpts, msg)
{}
>>>
 
--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

At 5/16/2005 09:45 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Matt England wrote:
>
> >It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to
> >figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to point
> >Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).
>
>The symptoms you have described do not really arise at the level of
>Mailman code, even in SMTPDirect.py. If this is not strictly a qmail
>issue, the problems probably occur in the interface between the Python
>library and qmail, not in Mailman. Did you update or change Python
>coincident with the start of these troubles?

Not that I'm aware of.

Note that phpBB is experiencing similar problems, and it is php based and 
not python based.

This further points the finger at qmail...or at least both php-to-qmail and 
python-to-qmail.

Care to offer any suggestions about how I can isolate these php-to-qmail 
and python-to-qmail problems...with like test scripts?  How do I write it, 
and/or do simple, stand-alone scripts already exist?  Can someone write me one?

I realize I'm asking a lot from a Mailman group to help solve an apparent 
qmail problem...and for what it's worth, I just lobbed as massive email 
over to the official qmail discussion list (qmail@list.cr.yp.to), too (I 
had previously been posting to forum.qmailrocks.org).

I'm also in discussion with Brad K. about a switch to postfix.

(Note that another post shows how a 'telnet lists.biz2tek.com 25' outbound 
email works ok.)

>In another post, you mentioned using Sendmail.py. I hope you have read
>and carefully considered all the comments in that module.

Yes, I did.  Sendmail.py is only a temporary solution, possibly only for 
debugging purposes so that I could prove that Mailman (and outbound email 
in general) was working.

-Matt 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

> "Matt" == Matt England <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Matt> That's not my understanding.  I've got /usr/lib/sendmail
Matt> linked to a qmail gizmo, and it's been working for months
Matt> now.  It says so in the qmail docs.

Matt> Is there something I'm missing?

Dan Bernstein is a very smart guy with a different perspective on many
things.  This has resulted in him producing a slew of unconventional
software.  It works well in combination with other Bernstein software,
but it is designed to be "excellent software" in Bernstein's opinion,
NOT to be compatible with any other software in the world, except
where that would make his software completely unusable.

You might be amused to check Rick's Rants:

http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/

-- 
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of TsukubaTennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
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  ask what your business can "do for" free software.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Brad Knowles]

At 11:57 AM -0500 2005-05-16, Matt England wrote:

>  Yes, this is a viable option.  What more can you tell me and/or what
>  references can you give me?  I invite you to take conversation "offline"
>  from the list if that's more appropriate?

Yes, offline is best.

>  Did I just start a postfix-vs-qmail rat hole?  (That could probably help
>  me, but it may take away from the list.)

Yeah, it's not really a good idea open up that kind of a 
flamefest on the list.  Best to take it offline.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

At 5/16/2005 09:11 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
>At 11:48 PM -0500 2005-05-15, Matt England wrote:
>
>>  Another note:
>>
>>  /usr/lib/sendmail is a qmail executable disguised as sendmail for
>>  backwards-compatibility.
>
> Unfortunately for you, qmail was never designed to be a drop-in 
> replacement for sendmail.

That's not my understanding.  I've got /usr/lib/sendmail linked to a qmail 
gizmo, and it's been working for months now.  It says so in the qmail docs.

Is there something I'm missing?

Also, the Sendmail.py-based Mailman stuff appears to be working with no 
problems for me (other then the warnings from the Mailman developrs not to 
use it...which is why I'm in this investigation).

-Matt

> Postfix is the only MTA that I know of that *was* designed to be 
> a drop-in replacement for sendmail -- at least, as much as is 
> possible.  If you want to learn more about postfix, I'll be glad to give 
> you my summary of why it's one of the best MTAs on the planet for use 
> with mailing list servers, as well as point you at plenty of other 
> resources that are likely to be useful to you.

Yes, this is a viable option.  What more can you tell me and/or what 
references can you give me?  I invite you to take conversation "offline" 
from the list if that's more appropriate?

One curiosity:  I'm curious if Postfix can support virtual domains as well 
as qmail can?  (Maybe that's hard to answer if one does not know 
qmail.)  When I first looked at Postfix, the seemingly massive amount of 
script/config-file setup was completely overwhelming to me...or was that 
exim I was checking out?  There was some specific set of reasons why I 
chose qmail over Postfix, but I can't remember them.  The fact that 
yahoo.com and smtp.com both seem to be qmail-based systems have a large 
pull with me, though; I get the impression Postfix hasn't been around the 
block as long as qmail, but that does not mean that it's not stable.

Did I just start a postfix-vs-qmail rat hole?  (That could probably help 
me, but it may take away from the list.)

-Matt


>--
>Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
>temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
>
> -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
> Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
>
>   SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[John W. Baxter]

On 5/16/05 7:11 AM, "Brad Knowles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Postfix is the only MTA that I know of that *was* designed to be
> a drop-in replacement for sendmail -- at least, as much as is
> possible.

Exim, also.

  --John


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Mark Sapiro]

Matt England wrote:

>It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to 
>figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to point 
>Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).

The symptoms you have described do not really arise at the level of
Mailman code, even in SMTPDirect.py. If this is not strictly a qmail
issue, the problems probably occur in the interface between the Python
library and qmail, not in Mailman. Did you update or change Python
coincident with the start of these troubles?

In another post, you mentioned using Sendmail.py. I hope you have read
and carefully considered all the comments in that module.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Brad Knowles]

At 11:48 PM -0500 2005-05-15, Matt England wrote:

>  Another note:
>
>  /usr/lib/sendmail is a qmail executable disguised as sendmail for
>  backwards-compatibility.

Unfortunately for you, qmail was never designed to be a drop-in 
replacement for sendmail.  If you want to use qmail, you've got to 
drink all the djb kool-aid and completely replace everything in your 
OS for which there is a djb equivalent.

Postfix is the only MTA that I know of that *was* designed to be 
a drop-in replacement for sendmail -- at least, as much as is 
possible.  If you want to learn more about postfix, I'll be glad to 
give you my summary of why it's one of the best MTAs on the planet 
for use with mailing list servers, as well as point you at plenty of 
other resources that are likely to be useful to you.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Brad Knowles]

At 10:49 PM -0500 2005-05-15, Matt England wrote:

>  It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to
>  figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to point
>  Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).

That sounds like a qmail problem, and you should be using their 
mailing lists, FAQs, documentation, etc... to help you resolve the 
problem.  There is likely to be relatively little that we can do to 
help.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

Another note:

/usr/lib/sendmail is a qmail executable disguised as sendmail for 
backwards-compatibility.

-Matt


At 5/15/2005 10:50 PM, Matt England wrote:
>I should also note:  Mailman outbound email seems to work just fine when 
>using Sendmail.py.
>
>-Matt
>
>At 5/15/2005 10:49 PM, Matt England wrote:
>>It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to 
>>figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to 
>>point Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost 
>>connections).
>>
>>I can run the following test ok:
>>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:35pm [~] 1> telnet localhost 25
>>Trying 127.0.0.1...
>>Connected to localhost.
>>Escape character is '^]'.
>>220 biz2tek.com ESMTP
>>HELO biz2tek.com
>>250 biz2tek.com
>>HELO lists.biz2tek.com
>>250 biz2tek.com
>>MAIL FROM: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>250 ok
>>^H
>>502 unimplemented (#5.5.1)
>>RCPT TO: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>250 ok
>>^]
>>telnet> c
>>Connection closed.
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:41pm [~] 2>
>>
>>Any other suggestions for testing my localhost SMTP server?
>>
>>-Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>At 5/15/2005 09:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>>Matt England wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Is there any way I can isolate the outbound/smtp mailman
>>> >process/program/module?  I've got all my other outbound email mechanisms
>>> >working, but I'm wading through a mountain of modules in mailman trying to
>>> >figure out exactly which part is responsible for the outbound mail.
>>>
>>>Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py
>>>
>>>--
>>>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>>>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

I also ran this test successfully:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11:03pm [~] 3> telnet 127.0.0.1 25
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to 127.0.0.1.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 biz2tek.com ESMTP
helo lists.biz2tek.com
250 biz2tek.com
mail from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
250 ok
rcpt to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
250 ok
data
354 go ahead
Subject: testing smtp server

this is just a test.
.
250 ok 1116216266 qp 17632
quit
221 biz2tek.com
Connection closed by foreign host.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11:04pm [~] 4>


-Matt


At 5/15/2005 10:49 PM, Matt England wrote:
>It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to 
>figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to 
>point Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).
>
>I can run the following test ok:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:35pm [~] 1> telnet localhost 25
>Trying 127.0.0.1...
>Connected to localhost.
>Escape character is '^]'.
>220 biz2tek.com ESMTP
>HELO biz2tek.com
>250 biz2tek.com
>HELO lists.biz2tek.com
>250 biz2tek.com
>MAIL FROM: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>250 ok
>^H
>502 unimplemented (#5.5.1)
>RCPT TO: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>250 ok
>^]
>telnet> c
>Connection closed.
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:41pm [~] 2>
>
>Any other suggestions for testing my localhost SMTP server?
>
>-Matt
>
>
>
>At 5/15/2005 09:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>Matt England wrote:
>> >
>> >Is there any way I can isolate the outbound/smtp mailman
>> >process/program/module?  I've got all my other outbound email mechanisms
>> >working, but I'm wading through a mountain of modules in mailman trying to
>> >figure out exactly which part is responsible for the outbound mail.
>>
>>Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py
>>
>>--
>>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

I should also note:  Mailman outbound email seems to work just fine when 
using Sendmail.py.

-Matt

At 5/15/2005 10:49 PM, Matt England wrote:
>It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to 
>figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to 
>point Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).
>
>I can run the following test ok:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:35pm [~] 1> telnet localhost 25
>Trying 127.0.0.1...
>Connected to localhost.
>Escape character is '^]'.
>220 biz2tek.com ESMTP
>HELO biz2tek.com
>250 biz2tek.com
>HELO lists.biz2tek.com
>250 biz2tek.com
>MAIL FROM: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>250 ok
>^H
>502 unimplemented (#5.5.1)
>RCPT TO: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>250 ok
>^]
>telnet> c
>Connection closed.
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:41pm [~] 2>
>
>Any other suggestions for testing my localhost SMTP server?
>
>-Matt
>
>
>
>At 5/15/2005 09:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>Matt England wrote:
>> >
>> >Is there any way I can isolate the outbound/smtp mailman
>> >process/program/module?  I've got all my other outbound email mechanisms
>> >working, but I'm wading through a mountain of modules in mailman trying to
>> >figure out exactly which part is responsible for the outbound mail.
>>
>>Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py
>>
>>--
>>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Outbound smtp email problems (qmail problems)

[Matt England]

It seems there's some problem with my SMTP server...I'm just trying to 
figure out what it is or how I can reproduce it other then keeping to point 
Mailman or phpBB forums at it (both fail for SMTP localhost connections).

I can run the following test ok:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:35pm [~] 1> telnet localhost 25
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
220 biz2tek.com ESMTP
HELO biz2tek.com
250 biz2tek.com
HELO lists.biz2tek.com
250 biz2tek.com
MAIL FROM: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
250 ok
^H
502 unimplemented (#5.5.1)
RCPT TO: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
250 ok
^]
telnet> c
Connection closed.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10:41pm [~] 2>

Any other suggestions for testing my localhost SMTP server?

-Matt



At 5/15/2005 09:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>Matt England wrote:
> >
> >Is there any way I can isolate the outbound/smtp mailman
> >process/program/module?  I've got all my other outbound email mechanisms
> >working, but I'm wading through a mountain of modules in mailman trying to
> >figure out exactly which part is responsible for the outbound mail.
>
>Mailman/Handlers/SMTPDirect.py
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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