[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Vako Nicolian writes:

 > I am surprised that it hasn't popped up yet with you guys,

It didn't "pop up" for us.  It blew up, and started a week of
sleepless nights and days for thousands of email admins (and a few
Mailman developers with a lot of assistance from some DMARC
developers), not to mention millions of invoices and other important
small business mail getting discarded.[1]

Without access to the systems at Yahoo! and friends (which they are
*very* serious about not granting to anyone), we can't be 100% sure,
but all the evidence you have presented, matched to that history
indicates that what you are seeing is a problem with the whole email
system *caused by those email providers*.  It is not a problem with
Mailman, although it is a perennial headache for Mailman admins and
for us.  When the recipient arbitrarily discards email, there is
*nothing* we can do about it -- that's entirely up to the recipient,
and to *you* -- you have to configure your email system to *their*
specs, we can't do that for you.  We can only advise how to make
things work somewhat better -- except that they won't tell us (or you)
what they're doing so our advice is (somewhat informed) guesswork.

Do I sound bitter?  Yes, I am very bitter about the whole DMARC abuse
fiasco.  There is very good reason why many members of this list have
zero sympathy for Yahoo! and AOL.

I have some sympathy for their users who stick with them, and for
their admins who stick with this policy[2].  It *is* generally a very
annoying and drawnout task to change your primary email address
(especially if you don't get a cooperative forward from the old one),
and I can't blame them for being locked in to what was at the time a
popular (and still! free! as in beer! service).  But I have a short
fuse if they start acting entitled about it.

 > PS: when I reply to this list, it goes only to the poster, shouldn't
 > it go to the list?

No.  To be a little more specific than Mark, it's not just a matter of
principle.  In many cases we request potentially sensitive information
from users.  The practice of having replies go to poster by default
helps prevent accidental publication of such data.  It's easy to
correct when a post is intended to be public.  It's not so easy, and
often impossible (the spammers are known to subscribe to mailing lists
for various reasons), to correct if such data is published.

 > I don't have the habit of doing reply all.

Some mail clients have a reply-to-list (and if it's not a list, to
author) function if that's the behavior you want.  Why they don't all
have it, you'd have to ask their developers.

Steve

[1] In April 2014, after Yahoo! and AOL leaked literally a billion
users' email contact lists to spammers, their response was to
repurpose the DMARC p=reject policy (originally intended to protect
clients of banks and other businesses from phishing and other fraud,
where mail "on behalf of" a principal is obviously not a thing) to
protect their users from targeted "mail from a friend" spear-phishing
attacks (but not the rest of the Internet! -- which has nevertheless
survived despite not abusing "p=reject").  This had the side effect of
a massive denial-of-service attack on their own users, as mailing
lists, invoices from third-party accounting firms on behalf of
businesses using AOL or Yahoo! addresses to their customers at those
domains, and several other common forms of "on behalf of" email were
silently discarded by the billions by AOL and Yahoo! -- which practice
continues today, as your subscribers have discovered.  Of course,
Yahoo! and AOL refuse to take responsibility for this, and allow their
users to blame others.  I think the part of the idea was to encourage
their users to use Yahoo Groups! and AOL chats rather than third party
mailing lists, but that didn't work out for them.

[2] My understanding is that the email admins at those sites did their
jobs.  Yahoo! admins claimed that they were facing spam campaigns that
peaked at 1 million messages per *minute*.  The vulnerability was other
parts of the business that had access to these databases and the hackers
came in through the bathroom window, as it were.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Mark Sapiro]

On 3/8/21 6:16 PM, Vako Nicolian wrote:
> In the General options, I set DMARC to both NO and MUNGE with the same
> results.

General Options -> from_is_list = Munge From will change the From to the
list address for all posts while Privacy options... -> Sender filters ->
dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From wiull do it more selectively.


> I have more than 200 subscribers and only the Yahoo and AOL users are
> having this issue, so there must be a setting that we can change to make
> it work with them also.

If it is due to DMARC, General Options -> from_is_list = Munge From
should help.

If you have access to the outgoing MTA logs, what do you see there for
these. Also, you should have Bounce processing -> bounce_processing =
Yes and bounce_notify_owner_on_disable = Yes. With thes settings do you
get user's delivery disabled by bounce and if so, what are the reasons
in the notices.


> I am surprised that it hasn't popped up yet with you guys, or maybe your
> users haven't reported these issues since they are not getting the
> emails in the 1st place!
> 
> Note that I realized the issue when they noticed some replies to emails
> that they haven't seen...
> All of them without exception are not getting back their own posts.


Sounds like DMARC to me.


> PS: when I reply to this list, it goes only to the poster, shouldn't it
> go to the list? I don't have the habit of doing reply all.


No it should not. Reply should go to the poster and Reply All to the
poster and the list and Reply List to the list only. This list does not
munge Reply-To: because we think that is not a good thing. See
 for some of the
reasons why.


-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Vako Nicolian]

I got several replies but no solutions, other than having them migrated 
to other systems, which is not possible.
In the General options, I set DMARC to both NO and MUNGE with the same 
results.
I have more than 200 subscribers and only the Yahoo and AOL users are 
having this issue, so there must be a setting that we can change to make 
it work with them also.
I am surprised that it hasn't popped up yet with you guys, or maybe your 
users haven't reported these issues since they are not getting the 
emails in the 1st place!


Note that I realized the issue when they noticed some replies to emails 
that they haven't seen...

All of them without exception are not getting back their own posts.

Hope a suggestion would finally make it work.

Vako
PS: when I reply to this list, it goes only to the poster, shouldn't it 
go to the list? I don't have the habit of doing reply all.



Robert Heller wrote on 3/8/2021 11:28 AM:

At Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:19:12 -0500 Richard Damon  
wrote:


On 3/8/21 10:56 AM, Vako Nicolian wrote:

I am having issues with group emails sent to AOL, Yahoo email and
similar systems.
They are either not receiving their own posts or not receiving random
ones even in their junk folder and by logging to the web version.

See the email below as an example and I also logged in to his system,
did search and troubleshooting without finding those lost emails.
Have you encountered similar issues? any suggestions?

Note the below Rogers account is actually a Yahoo based email.

Thanks,
Vako

Likely a DMARC issue. You need to enable the DMARC mitigations. AOL,
Yahoo and the like will not accept messages with a From that says AOL or
YAHOO that passes through your list unless it doesn't modify the message
body or subject in any way.

Even with proper DMARC mitigations, Yahoo will likely defer messages and/or
deliver messages from Mailman lists to peoples' spam folders.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:06:19 -0500 Brian Carpenter  
wrote:

> 
> On 3/8/21 10:56 AM, Vako Nicolian wrote:
> > I am having issues with group emails sent to AOL, Yahoo email and 
> > similar systems.
> > They are either not receiving their own posts or not receiving random 
> > ones even in their junk folder and by logging to the web version.
> >
> > See the email below as an example and I also logged in to his system, 
> > did search and troubleshooting without finding those lost emails.
> > Have you encountered similar issues? any suggestions?
> >
> > Note the below Rogers account is actually a Yahoo based email.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Vako
> 
> This is not a Mailman 2 issue at all. It is a mail delivery issue that 
> your Email provider should assist you with. Note that AOL is part of 
> Yahoo. The server's mail log should show if the messages are being 
> bounced or deferred. Deferred mail from Yahoo is a very common problem 
> and defer messages should show up in the mail queue of the Mailman 2 server.

Yahoo is owned by Verizon and Verizon is driving Yahoo into the ground -- they
have already driven all YahooGroups over to groups.io. Their (so called) spam
handling is screwy. There is not really very much the OP can do about it. The
(hapless) people with AOL, Netscape, Yahoo, or Verizon E-mail addresses are
probably going to continue to have mail delivery problems from Mailman lists
-- delayed delivery, delivery to spam folders, etc. As a list admin, there is
not much you can do about it. You *could* suggest that these people move off
Yahoo -- eg move to GMail, Outlook (bad as M$ is, Outlook seems to be less
screwy than Yahoo), or Zoho, or some other E-Mail service.

> 

-- 
Robert Heller -- 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software-- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
hel...@deepsoft.com   -- Webhosting Services
  
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:19:12 -0500 Richard Damon  
wrote:

> 
> On 3/8/21 10:56 AM, Vako Nicolian wrote:
> > I am having issues with group emails sent to AOL, Yahoo email and
> > similar systems.
> > They are either not receiving their own posts or not receiving random
> > ones even in their junk folder and by logging to the web version.
> >
> > See the email below as an example and I also logged in to his system,
> > did search and troubleshooting without finding those lost emails.
> > Have you encountered similar issues? any suggestions?
> >
> > Note the below Rogers account is actually a Yahoo based email.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Vako
> Likely a DMARC issue. You need to enable the DMARC mitigations. AOL,
> Yahoo and the like will not accept messages with a From that says AOL or
> YAHOO that passes through your list unless it doesn't modify the message
> body or subject in any way.

Even with proper DMARC mitigations, Yahoo will likely defer messages and/or 
deliver messages from Mailman lists to peoples' spam folders.

> 

-- 
Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364
Deepwoods Software-- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
hel...@deepsoft.com   -- Webhosting Services
 
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/8/21 11:21 AM, Robert Heller wrote:

Yahoo is owned by Verizon and Verizon is driving Yahoo into the ground -- they
have already driven all YahooGroups over to groups.io. Their (so called) spam
handling is screwy. There is not really very much the OP can do about it. The
(hapless) people with AOL, Netscape, Yahoo, or Verizon E-mail addresses are
probably going to continue to have mail delivery problems from Mailman lists
-- delayed delivery, delivery to spam folders, etc. As a list admin, there is
not much you can do about it. You*could*  suggest that these people move off
Yahoo -- eg move to GMail, Outlook (bad as M$ is, Outlook seems to be less
screwy than Yahoo), or Zoho, or some other E-Mail service.


This is not correct at all. We host around a 1000 Mailman lists and list 
traffic goes to thousands of Yahoo users with no delivery problems. I 
think Verizon has improved Yahoo's response to reported problems. Using 
SPF/DKIM, DMARC mitigation (as another list member mentioned), and 
handling bounce rates are very important in keeping Yahoo happy.


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com
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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Richard Damon]

On 3/8/21 10:56 AM, Vako Nicolian wrote:
> I am having issues with group emails sent to AOL, Yahoo email and
> similar systems.
> They are either not receiving their own posts or not receiving random
> ones even in their junk folder and by logging to the web version.
>
> See the email below as an example and I also logged in to his system,
> did search and troubleshooting without finding those lost emails.
> Have you encountered similar issues? any suggestions?
>
> Note the below Rogers account is actually a Yahoo based email.
>
> Thanks,
> Vako
Likely a DMARC issue. You need to enable the DMARC mitigations. AOL,
Yahoo and the like will not accept messages with a From that says AOL or
YAHOO that passes through your list unless it doesn't modify the message
body or subject in any way.

-- 
Richard Damon

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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/8/21 10:56 AM, Vako Nicolian wrote:
I am having issues with group emails sent to AOL, Yahoo email and 
similar systems.
They are either not receiving their own posts or not receiving random 
ones even in their junk folder and by logging to the web version.


See the email below as an example and I also logged in to his system, 
did search and troubleshooting without finding those lost emails.

Have you encountered similar issues? any suggestions?

Note the below Rogers account is actually a Yahoo based email.

Thanks,
Vako


This is not a Mailman 2 issue at all. It is a mail delivery issue that 
your Email provider should assist you with. Note that AOL is part of 
Yahoo. The server's mail log should show if the messages are being 
bounced or deferred. Deferred mail from Yahoo is a very common problem 
and defer messages should show up in the mail queue of the Mailman 2 server.


--
Brian Carpenter
Harmonylists.com
Emwd.com
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