[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
David Andrews writes: >. Search worked, and users liked it, but I had another > problem with cPanel, don't even remember what. The cPanel folks said > they would not give me technical support as long as I used HTDIG, Condolences. It's not clear to me that that is any of their business (unless you need tech support for htdig itself, in which case I can't really get upset with them, YMMV), though. > so now I have no search, a problem with a system with over 300 lists. I don't know what your situation is (eg, private lists), but for your public or private-but-not-sensitive lists, mail-archive.com[1] might be an option. Somewhat inconvenient to have to switch back and forth for full archives (they strip images and most other attachments) vs. search capability, but better than nothing. Unfortunately, it's a hobby site, so I doubt they provide any service at all for private lists. At least their FAQ is of extremely high quality, I think you can probably trust them to be quite up to the task for you, if you have lists with minimal requirements for privacy, and don't need attachments stored and archived there. Steve Footnotes: [1] mailarchive.com seems to live in Poland, and otherwise I couldn't read their page. :^) -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
At 11:12 PM 5/25/2022, Mark Sapiro wrote: On 5/25/22 19:32, Mark Dale via Mailman-Users wrote: That got me Googling for How-to's on integrating MHonArc with Mailman. There's a fair bit of conversation around this from days long ago, and a patch for using MHonArc written by Mark S. back in 2014. I didn't write that patch. It's from Richard Barrett who also created a patch for HtDig integration for archive searches. There are three branches at https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/mhonarc, https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig and https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig_mhonarc which are up to date with https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1 with the mhonarc, htdig and both patches applied respectively. I never used the mhonarc or htdig_mhonarc branches, but I did use the htdig branch for a production Mailman 2.1 installation. For what it is worth, a number of years ago I installed the HtTDIG patch, and it worked. I must say, also, that I have a cPanel installation. Search worked, and users liked it, but I had another problem with cPanel, don't even remember what. The cPanel folks said they would not give me technical support as long as I used HTDIG, so now I have no search, a problem with a system with over 300 lists. Dave -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
> > > Before I go down this rabbit hole: was there any particular > > > reason (back in the day) that Pipermail was favoured (and > > > implemented) over MHonArc. > > > > Mailman was initially implemented by John Viega in the mid 1990s to > > manage a mailing list for fans of the Dave Mathews Band. I don't know > > why pipermail was chosen, but MHonArc was fairly new at that time and > > pipermail was probably more mature. > I doubt that Hypermail (the original code) was more mature than > MHonArc, but it was written in Python and so considered more > appropriate for bundling with Mailman. ... > As far as I can recall, Pipermail never been especially recommended > over 3rd party solutions like MHonArc or external services like > mailarchive.com, it's just easy to use because it's guaranteed to be > there, we provide support for it, and it turned out to be "good > enough" for an awful lot of lists. > Many thanks Steve and Mark. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
Mark Sapiro writes: > On 5/25/22 19:32, Mark Dale via Mailman-Users wrote: > > Before I go down this rabbit hole: was there any particular > > reason (back in the day) that Pipermail was favoured (and > > implemented) over MHonArc. > > Mailman was initially implemented by John Viega in the mid 1990s to > manage a mailing list for fans of the Dave Mathews Band. I don't know > why pipermail was chosen, but MHonArc was fairly new at that time and > pipermail was probably more mature. I doubt that Hypermail (the original code) was more mature than MHonArc, but it was written in Python and so considered more appropriate for bundling with Mailman. "Batteries included" has always been a goal for Python, and Mailman inherited it. MHonArc is a Perl script, written in an idiosyncratic style (so I was told by a Perlmonger), and I myself would have to punt on most maintenance questions for MHonArc despite admining lists using it for a decade. I can't speak for other members of the team, they may be more capable with Perl than I am. But to me, this would be the main issue with using MHonArc -- you'd likely be dependent on somebody other than us if you need help with it. (Probably you could get some help on this list, though.) As far as I can recall, Pipermail never been especially recommended over 3rd party solutions like MHonArc or external services like mailarchive.com, it's just easy to use because it's guaranteed to be there, we provide support for it, and it turned out to be "good enough" for an awful lot of lists. Regards, Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
On 5/25/22 19:32, Mark Dale via Mailman-Users wrote: That got me Googling for How-to's on integrating MHonArc with Mailman. There's a fair bit of conversation around this from days long ago, and a patch for using MHonArc written by Mark S. back in 2014. I didn't write that patch. It's from Richard Barrett who also created a patch for HtDig integration for archive searches. There are three branches at https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/mhonarc, https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig and https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/htdig_mhonarc which are up to date with https://code.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1 with the mhonarc, htdig and both patches applied respectively. I never used the mhonarc or htdig_mhonarc branches, but I did use the htdig branch for a production Mailman 2.1 installation. Before I go down this rabbit hole: was there any particular reason (back in the day) that Pipermail was favoured (and implemented) over MHonArc. Mailman was initially implemented by John Viega in the mid 1990s to manage a mailing list for fans of the Dave Mathews Band. I don't know why pipermail was chosen, but MHonArc was fairly new at that time and pipermail was probably more mature. -- Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
> Mark Dale via Mailman-Users writes: > > > And of course, any such "nl2br" equivalent will do exactly the same > > as wrapping with P tags -- with everything left aligned. > From: Stephen J. Turnbull [mailto:stephenjturnb...@gmail.com] > Right. > > I'm not sure that we couldn't do better nowadays with libraries that > will handle the same DOM that browsers do, but it certainly wasn't > possible in 1994. And even with those libraries it would require a > complete rearchitecture of the archiver. > > Steve > I did some tests with Sympa (v6.2.88) which uses MHonArc (v2.6.19): it does a pretty good job of rendering archived HTML messages with things like lists, code, etc -- and eliminating the need for the horizontal scrolling. That got me Googling for How-to's on integrating MHonArc with Mailman. There's a fair bit of conversation around this from days long ago, and a patch for using MHonArc written by Mark S. back in 2014. Before I go down this rabbit hole: was there any particular reason (back in the day) that Pipermail was favoured (and implemented) over MHonArc. -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
Mark Dale via Mailman-Users writes: > And of course, any such "nl2br" equivalent will do exactly the same > as wrapping with P tags -- with everything left aligned. Right. I'm not sure that we couldn't do better nowadays with libraries that will handle the same DOM that browsers do, but it certainly wasn't possible in 1994. And even with those libraries it would require a complete rearchitecture of the archiver. Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/ https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
>> You might get a better result in these messages by removing the "PRE"
>> tags, and wrapping each line with "...", but that's a real
>> hack, and almost certain to make RFC-conforming email look quite ugly,
>> because every line becomes a paragraph, and you'll lose all
>> indentation. Eg, in the code blocks you posted, all the lines will
>> end up flush left. If your members are posting code or poetry, or
>> using indented block quotations etc, they're likely to be extremely
>> unhappy with the result.
D'oh! I just saw the error in my whole way of thinking.
And of course, any such "nl2br" equivalent will do exactly the same as wrapping
with P tags -- with everything left aligned.
But thank you Steve, for taking the time and trouble to explain. It is indeed a
whole can of worms. Much to learn.
/Mark
//
Python's standard library does have a textwrap module, but I'm not at
all sure it's suitable for this. If you know that the long lines of a
message are actually paragraphs, you can use something like
from textwrap import wrap
# work backward because wrapping changes indicies of later lines
for i in range(len(lines) - 1, -1, -1):
# NDT = detect_prefix(lines[i])
lines[i:i+1] = wrap(lines[i], initial_indent=NDT, subsequent_indent=NDT)
If a line is indented or has a quoting prefix, you have to detect that
for yourself and set NDT to that prefix. Something like
import re
prefix_re = re.compile('[ >]*')
def detect_prefix(line):
m = prefix_re.match(line)
return m.group(0)
should capture most indentation and quoting prefixes, but there are
other conventions.
Whether you use P elements or the textwrap module, it's probably a
good idea to find out how long the long lines are, and what percentage
of the message they are, and avoid trying to wrap a message that looks
like it "mostly" has lines of reasonable length. If you don't, and
your target is the old "typewriter standard" width of 66, and somebody
using an RFC-conforming MUA just prefers 72, you'll reformat their
mail into alternating lines of about 60 characters and 10 characters.
Yuck ...
Which of the above would work better for you depends a lot on the
typical content of your list. But issues with quoting and indentation
are likely to have you tearing your hair out.
//
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Re: How to wrap text in archived messages
>> I'm looking for a way to wrap lines in archived messages
>> And the lines in that block that seem responsible for the PRE tags are ...
>>
>> lines.insert(0, '')
>> lines.append('')
>>
>> My question is: Can those PRE tags be removed and replaced with
>> something equivalent to PHP's "nl2br" (which inserts a line break
>> BR in place of new line entries)?
> No, because there *are no* newlines to break those very long lines.
> These MUAs use newline to mean "paragraph break", not "line break".
But there are "newlines" and there isn't any need to insert linebreaks into
those long lines -- they just need to wrap.
Looking at, for example, a message that originally has 3 paragraphs of text:
%(body)s
**
First paragraph that is a really long line of text.
Second paragraph that is a really long line of text.
Third paragraph that is a really long line of text.
*
If those PRE tags are removed, then all 3 lines get joined up and displayed as
one continuous line. It solves the non-wrap problem but it looses the
"paragraphs". So that's a no go.
As said, if this was PHP we could use the "nl2br" function - which inserts line
breaks before all newlines.
-- would give us ...
///
First paragraph of body that is a really long line of text.
Second paragraph of body that is a really long line of text.
Third paragraph of body that is a really long line of text.
The BR tags would preserve the space between the lines and give the appearance
of paragraphs in the HTML Pipermail archive page. Granted the HTML would not be
strictly kosher, but then neither are the PRE tags strictly kosher as they're
are not being used as they should be. The main thing is that the lines would
wrap according the to width of the window and eliminate the need for horizontal
scrolling.
> You might get a better result in these messages by removing the "PRE"
> tags, and wrapping each line with "...", but that's a real
> hack, and almost certain to make RFC-conforming email look quite ugly,
> because every line becomes a paragraph, and you'll lose all
> indentation. Eg, in the code blocks you posted, all the lines will
> end up flush left. If your members are posting code or poetry, or
> using indented block quotations etc, they're likely to be extremely
> unhappy with the result.
Agreed. To horrible to even think about.
>
> Python's standard library does have a textwrap module, but I'm not at
> all sure it's suitable for this. If you know that the long lines of a
> message are actually paragraphs, you can use something like
>
> from textwrap import wrap
> # work backward because wrapping changes indicies of later lines
> for i in range(len(lines) - 1, -1, -1):
> # NDT = detect_prefix(lines[i])
> lines[i:i+1] = wrap(lines[i], initial_indent=NDT,
> subsequent_indent=NDT)
>
This is sort of where I was looking to go, but as you've pointed out, there's
no telling if the text will be in paragraphs, code blocks etc.
Does the Python code snippet that I mentioned ...
def nl2br(s):
return '\n'.join(s.split('\n'))
... make any sense as a Python equivalent of PHP's "nl2br" function (to
accomplish the insertion of the BR line break tags)?
Cheers,
Mark
--
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-le...@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/
