Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
At 10:49 AM -0700 3/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then there's the group who are running something like Windows ME who are adamant that my time is too valuable for me to learn anything. What are we going to do, kick them off the list with a learn-ya damn-ya! I certainly feel that way at times. So does my partner. We get that kind of crap to python.org, too. I think we get a lot more of it than most anyone else, because many stupid people seem to see that Mailman is a project supported by python.org, and they naturally assume that this is the site where all mailing lists in the Universe are hosted, and that it's our only purpose in life to kowtow to their every whim. Believe me, I'll put a lot of work into making sure that I *don't* comply with their demands, and I can be pretty harsh in my responses. These are the hard realities of the Consumer Internet. The last thing my partner and I **need** is a Unix-like encrypted password and having to reset passwords as root. That's not necessary. Think of all the enter your e-mail address, have auto-generated new password sent to you systems on the Internet. Well, that's what we're talking about here. Trust me, it's far, far better than the old reminders. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED], Consultant Author LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu Slides from Invited Talks: http://tinyurl.com/tj6q4 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Quoting Brad Knowles ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): At 9:19 PM -0700 3/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me that isn't true, Mark. From this mail list administrator's perspective, I can't find/use my password ranks just below the AOL flaming demands that we unsubscribe them NOW! Who needs periodic reminders, when there will be a reset mechanism that the user can make use of at any time of their choosing? I give up. I'm starting to think that my average mailing list user won't remember the URL they used to subscribe, they don't file away that email they get when they subscribe with all the instructions, that they don't read the footer on every message, and they don't read the monthly message. At least one idiot reported his monthly message to SpamCop, which reported it to my isp at the time, which suspended ALL of my access to their outgoing mail server for a couple of days while they investigated. Another idiot asked why he was on a cross country skiing list when he signed up for a Linux users group mailing list (my domain name is xcski.com). I explained that if he couldn't tell the difference between the domain name part and the user part of a mail address, then perhaps Linux isn't the OS for him and sent him the address of the local Apple users group. Because of all that, I'm resigned to having to respond to mailing list members emailing me demands to change their address, unsubscribe them, or whatever piece of mailing list trivia they want. There doesn't seem to be any way around it. I have a form letter that I send back to them. The form letter makes it look like I don't read their request, but mostly I do for the amusement value. If these requests for human intervention go up when the monthly reminder mails go away, I may have to make my own monthly reminder mail. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test key out of my cold, lifeless hands. -- Simon Travaglia -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Paul Tomblin wrote: I'm starting to think that my average mailing list user won't remember the URL they used to subscribe, they don't file away that email they get when they subscribe with all the instructions, that they don't read the footer on every message, and they don't read the monthly message. Sadly, I think this is true, and it argues that for this group of users at least, the reminders are useless anyway. But, for those for whom they are useful, here's a possibility. This is not a promise, but rather a suggestion. I first saw it it a comment by Glen Seib on the wiki http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+2.2. The suggestion (with interpretation by me) is that the list owner could provide a text template with substitutable parameters such as list name, user email, user options url, etc. as a list attribute. This could be used to remind users of list procedures and policies, how to get a password reset, whatever you want. It would be sent periodically to all list members. It would not be a list post, so it wouldn't be archived, and it would be personalized even if the list normally wasn't. To bring this thread back around to its beginning, there could also be a mechanism to treat a bounce of this message differently from a bounce of a post or digest. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): But, for those for whom they are useful, here's a possibility. This is not a promise, but rather a suggestion. I first saw it it a comment by Glen Seib on the wiki http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+2.2. The suggestion (with interpretation by me) is that the list owner could provide a text template with substitutable parameters such as list name, user email, user options url, etc. as a list attribute. This could be used to remind users of list procedures and policies, how to get a password reset, whatever you want. It would be sent periodically to all list members. It would not be a list post, so it wouldn't be archived, and it would be personalized even if the list normally wasn't. To bring this thread back around to its beginning, there could also be a mechanism to treat a bounce of this message differently from a bounce of a post or digest. That would be awesome. That would be everything I've ever wanted in a monthly reminder. I assume it would be VERPed the way existing monthly reminders can be, right? -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ Flying is the perfect vocation for a man who wants to feel like a boy, but not for one who still is. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
The esteemed Brad Knowles has said: At 9:19 PM -0700 3/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me that isn't true, Mark. From this mail list administrator's perspective, I can't find/use my password ranks just below the AOL flaming demands that we unsubscribe them NOW! Who needs periodic reminders, when there will be a reset mechanism that the user can make use of at any time of their choosing? I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the reason why you would ever want to continue using the reminder mechanism, when you can just go to a page, enter in your e-mail address, and have the system generate a new password for you and send it to you by e-mail. If three years as a Mailman mail list administrator has taught me anything, it is Never underestimate the inability of list members to use the user member management resources of Mailman. That begins with an inability to click on the links we put on headers and footers to get to their options page, much less clicking on the button that mails a password refresher to them. Then there's the group who are running something like Windows ME who are adamant that my time is too valuable for me to learn anything. What are we going to do, kick them off the list with a learn-ya damn-ya! I certainly feel that way at times. So does my partner. These are the hard realities of the Consumer Internet. The last thing my partner and I **need** is a Unix-like encrypted password and having to reset passwords as root. Hank -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are the hard realities of the Consumer Internet. The last thing my partner and I **need** is a Unix-like encrypted password and having to reset passwords as root. You won't have to do the reset as root or at all, except of course for those clueless users who insist you do everything for them and have no need of a password anyway. The way I envision this is the current 'Remind me' buttion on the user options login page is replaced by a 'Reset password' button. Clicking this results in an email along the lines of the current subscription confirmation email except that it would say that confirmation will result in the password being changed to ... -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Hello guys: I have about 15 lists. Some of them become a dark hole some times, since users can not send to or receive from these lists. I do not see any error log in /var/log/mailman/error, only some pck files into /var/spool/mailman/shunt/. I just tried /usr/lib/mailman/bin/unshunt /var/spool/mailman/shunt but although some of the pck files are deleted, It remains the problems with the lists. Some help please! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Denis Morejón López wrote: I have about 15 lists. Some of them become a dark hole some times, since users can not send to or receive from these lists. I do not see any error log in /var/log/mailman/error, only some pck files into /var/spool/mailman/shunt/. I just tried /usr/lib/mailman/bin/unshunt /var/spool/mailman/shunt but although some of the pck files are deleted, It remains the problems with the lists. Regarding shunted messages, there should be three entries in Mailman's error log for each shunted message. These are an uncaught exception entry, a traceback of the exception and the shunting entry. If these are not in the error log, perhaps your logs rotate and they are in an older generation or have rotated into oblivion. Regarding your list not delivering, see http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq03.014.htp. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Paul Tomblin wrote: I'm having two problems with members of a list who are set to no mail but whose email address is no longer valid: - The bounce of the monthly password reminder, even though it is VERPed, is not sufficient to remove them from the list because it's only one bounce. It would be nice if that bounce would trigger some additional probing, possibly immediately going to the you are disabled warnings. It would not be difficult to do a withlist script to list those members with current bounce info and disabled delivery. You could run this a day or so after the password reminders are sent to get a manual list for further manual action. I'm not sure that treating a bounce of a password reminder as an immediate disable for bounce is a good idea. It is after all, just one bounce. If you don't disable members for bounce after one single post bounces, It probably isn't a good idea to do it for password reminders either. Another thought is that password reminders are sent from the 'mailman' list. You could set the alias for mailman-bounces to deliver these to a person. - I send the membership list of one particular list off as a cron job to a friend who has a backup list for that one. But there is no easy way to remove addresses that are set to no mail from the output of list_members. What I want is the opposite of list_members -n to show only members who aren't set to no mail. Have you tried list_members -n enabled? It's not documented, but it works. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I'm having two problems with members of a list who are set to no mail but whose email address is no longer valid: - The bounce of the monthly password reminder, even though it is VERPed, is not sufficient to remove them from the list because it's only one bounce. It would be nice if that bounce would trigger some additional probing, possibly immediately going to the you are disabled warnings. It would not be difficult to do a withlist script to list those members with current bounce info and disabled delivery. You could run this a day or so after the password reminders are sent to get a manual list for further manual action. I'm not sure that treating a bounce of a password reminder as an immediate disable for bounce is a good idea. It is after all, just one bounce. If you don't disable members for bounce after one single post bounces, It probably isn't a good idea to do it for password reminders either. The problem is that the bounce thresholds are set for the people who get mail every mail. The nomail members only get mail once a month, so they'll never be removed. - I send the membership list of one particular list off as a cron job to a friend who has a backup list for that one. But there is no easy way to remove addresses that are set to no mail from the output of list_members. What I want is the opposite of list_members -n to show only members who aren't set to no mail. Have you tried list_members -n enabled? It's not documented, but it works. Oh, shiny! I might have tried that if it was documented. Thanks. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ Panic kills -- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I'm not sure that treating a bounce of a password reminder as an immediate disable for bounce is a good idea. It is after all, just one bounce. If you don't disable members for bounce after one single post bounces, It probably isn't a good idea to do it for password reminders either. The problem is that the bounce thresholds are set for the people who get mail every mail. The nomail members only get mail once a month, so they'll never be removed. I understand that that is the problem, but they'll never be removed anyway because password reminders come from the site (mailman) list, and any bounced password reminder is returned to mailman-bounces and ignored since the user being reminded is not a member of the mailman list. That being the case, my previous suggestion that you could list delivery disabled members that have current bounce info with a withlist or other script won't work either, because they won't have any bounce info for a bounced password reminder. Thus, I think I'm back to my other thought which is that in the short term, the best you can do is arrange for mail to the mailman-bounces address to be seen by a human. In the longer term (Mailman 2.2) password reminders and the site list are both going away. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): In the longer term (Mailman 2.2) password reminders and the site list are both going away. *All* password reminders are going away? I'm kind of worried about that - I get enough emails from people who say can you change my email address to [EMAIL PROTECTED], I'm pretty sure that without the monthly reminders I'd get three times as many. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ Please say this was followed by a very serious discussion on Right and Wrong involving a blow torch, 220V, a cobra and three East Germans named Georg... -- Robert Uhl -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Paul Tomblin wrote: *All* password reminders are going away? I'm kind of worried about that - I get enough emails from people who say can you change my email address to [EMAIL PROTECTED], I'm pretty sure that without the monthly reminders I'd get three times as many. User passwords are (finally) going to be encrypted, so there's no way to send a reminder. The existing, on demand reminder will be replaced by a reset function of some kind. See http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+2.2. My experience is that the users who take responsibility for themselves will remember their passwords or figure out how to get a reset. The others will ask the list owner even if they received a reminder yesterday. It would be interesting to keep track of requests from users for things they can do for themselves to see if the frequency of requests is greater towards the end of the month. I haven't done this, but I suspect it's not. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): User passwords are (finally) going to be encrypted, so there's no way to send a reminder. The existing, on demand reminder will be replaced Ohh, good idea. It would be interesting to keep track of requests from users for things they can do for themselves to see if the frequency of requests is greater towards the end of the month. I haven't done this, but I suspect it's not. In my experience, the first day or two of the month is where most people do their own maintenance (unsubscribe, change their address, subscribe a new address), and also where I get the majority of the requests that need the form letter. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ It's 106 light-years to Chicago, we've got a full chamber of anti-matter, a half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing visors. Engage. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
At 9:19 PM -0700 3/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me that isn't true, Mark. From this mail list administrator's perspective, I can't find/use my password ranks just below the AOL flaming demands that we unsubscribe them NOW! Who needs periodic reminders, when there will be a reset mechanism that the user can make use of at any time of their choosing? I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the reason why you would ever want to continue using the reminder mechanism, when you can just go to a page, enter in your e-mail address, and have the system generate a new password for you and send it to you by e-mail. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED], Consultant Author LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu Slides from Invited Talks: http://tinyurl.com/tj6q4 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Nomail members
I am trying to list all users from a list that has the option nomail enabled. Does anybody knows how can i perform this task? Use this with bin/withlist: import sys import Mailman.mm_cfg def nomail(list): for member in list.members.keys(): try: if list.user_options[member] Mailman.mm_cfg.DisableDelivery: print member except: print sys.stderr, %s has no user_options % member pass for member in list.digest_members.keys(): try: if list.user_options[member] Mailman.mm_cfg.DisableDelivery: print member except: # normal for digest_members to have no options; means MIME digests pass sys.exit(0) -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
