Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Michael Welch wrote: Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different. This thread has been well covered. I just want to add a couple of things: As mentioned in other replies, the difference in the 'bounces' address is that it is VERP like on this list and not on yours. Also, enabling Mailman's VERP on all list posts will not necessarily stop people from replying to the VERPd address, but it will stop your seeing their replies because VERPd bounces are never unrecognized. Also, if they do it often enough, they will be disabled by bounce processing. Finally, as alluded to in another reply, this is probably not users replying to the -bounces address because they see it in a header. Rather, it is more likely to be user's MUAs. See http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Thanks to all, lots of info in there. I see now that it is probably not user error that is causing this, but that some users have a version of Outlook that may inadvertently picking up the address from the Sender: header. So, I have a feature suggestion: Add an autoreply option for -bounces incoming emails. Mark Sapiro wrote at 09:13 AM 11/18/2008: Michael Welch wrote: Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different. This thread has been well covered. I just want to add a couple of things: As mentioned in other replies, the difference in the 'bounces' address is that it is VERP like on this list and not on yours. Also, enabling Mailman's VERP on all list posts will not necessarily stop people from replying to the VERPd address, but it will stop your seeing their replies because VERPd bounces are never unrecognized. Also, if they do it often enough, they will be disabled by bounce processing. Finally, as alluded to in another reply, this is probably not users replying to the -bounces address because they see it in a header. Rather, it is more likely to be user's MUAs. See http://wiki.list.org/x/RoA9. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.redwoodalliance.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Michael Welch writes: So, I have a feature suggestion: Add an autoreply option for -bounces incoming emails. Executive summary: not likely to help, not likely to happen. This is just going to annoy people who can't easily help themselves (Outlook and Blackberry users, apparently). You really don't want to do that, even if it lightens your load of direct contact because they get the autoreply. The fact that they are using *broken* software[1] cuts no ice with them; everybody uses Outlook, so the rest of us should just shut up and cope. It also creates backscatter. Spambots harvest those -bounces addresses, and then your autoreply will go back to some forged sender, who often enough is a real mailbox somewhere. Guess who they will think spammed them? And they will be correct! in the sense that it was your decision to set up an autoreply that is so easy to abuse. (This is true of all autoreplies, by the way, which has been a big headache for many list admins and the Mailman devs for years. Search the Mailman-Users archive for backscatter.) Footnotes: [1] RFC 2822 specifies that Sender headers indicate the administrative agent who handled the mail, as a secretary does for his boss. If there is a problem in transmission, a missing attachment for example, then you contact the secretary and don't bother the boss, right? Replies discussing the content however are sent to the boss, right? Even if her secretary actually is previewing and prioritizing the mail. Email is the same. Technical problems with the content go to Sender, and discussion of content goes to Reply-To (if it exists) or From. In the case of email, the admin agent is typically a program, so this distinction needs to be respected even more than in the case of a human secretary. Where the secretary would discard or reroute the junk, the program isn't smart enough to do anything but forward to you, and your time is infinitely more expensive than the program's. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Michael Welch wrote: That means I end up having to do personal contact with way too many people to let them know that they did not use the correct address, so they need to resend. I notice that this list does not show me the real address in those headers, but rather something like: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I would guess that the list admin for this listserver rarely sees users mistaking the Sender: header for the correct address. We get a few people who send to mailman-users-owner thinking that they're posting to the whole list, but I disabuse them of that notion. Over the several years I've been acting as one of the co-owners of this list, I don't recall getting any messages being sent by users to mailman-users-bounces. I am getting pretty tired of this. How can I fix it? You can set up an auto-responder. For the web admin page for your mailing list, go to the Auto-responder section. From there, you can set the auto-responder message for all posts that are sent to the list, and there's a separate auto-responder message that you can create for all messages sent to listname-owner, which should also include all messages sent to listname-bounces. Make sure you check the settings of the various related radio-buttons for these automatic responses, and change them to be more appropriate for your situation if they are not correct. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in reply, in part: Over the several years I've been acting as one of the co-owners of this list, I don't recall getting any messages being sent by users to mailman-users-bounces. I have some Mailman lists, and if a recipient does a reply-all from a BlackBerry device, then the -bounces address is included in the reply. -- Barry S. Finkel Computing and Information Systems Division Argonne National Laboratory Phone:+1 (630) 252-7277 9700 South Cass Avenue Facsimile:+1 (630) 252-4601 Building 222, Room D209 Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Argonne, IL 60439-4828 IBMMAIL: I1004994 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Brad Knowles wrote at 09:09 AM 11/17/2008: Michael Welch wrote: That means I end up having to do personal contact with way too many people to let them know that they did not use the correct address, so they need to resend. I notice that this list does not show me the real address in those headers, but rather something like: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I would guess that the list admin for this listserver rarely sees users mistaking the Sender: header for the correct address. We get a few people who send to mailman-users-owner thinking that they're posting to the whole list, but I disabuse them of that notion. Over the several years I've been acting as one of the co-owners of this list, I don't recall getting any messages being sent by users to mailman-users-bounces. Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different. I am getting pretty tired of this. How can I fix it? You can set up an auto-responder. For the web admin page for your mailing list, go to the Auto-responder section. From there, you can set the auto-responder message for all posts that are sent to the list, and there's a separate auto-responder message that you can create for all messages sent to listname-owner, which should also include all messages sent to listname-bounces. That does not work, I assume because the message to -owner is coming from -bounces and not from the original list member. So an autoresponder would be sent back to -bounces, which might actually create an endless loop (though I imagine Mailman traps for that). - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.redwoodalliance.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Michael Welch wrote: That does not work, I assume because the message to -owner is coming from -bounces and not from the original list member. So an autoresponder would be sent back to -bounces, which might actually create an endless loop (though I imagine Mailman traps for that). You are correct, Mailman should trap for that. This means that there's no harm in testing out the feature yourself, just to see what happens. If it works, you're done. If not, then no harm should be done, and we can explore other possibilities. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Hi Brad. I did test it, hence That does not work. But I do appreciate the reminder, because I had intended to populate that particular autoresponder. Brad Knowles wrote at 11:09 AM 11/17/2008: Michael Welch wrote: That does not work, I assume because the message to -owner is coming from -bounces and not from the original list member. So an autoresponder would be sent back to -bounces, which might actually create an endless loop (though I imagine Mailman traps for that). You are correct, Mailman should trap for that. This means that there's no harm in testing out the feature yourself, just to see what happens. If it works, you're done. If not, then no harm should be done, and we can explore other possibilities. - - - - - - - - - - - - Michael Welch, volunteer Redwood Alliance PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 707-822-7884 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.redwoodalliance.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Michael Welch wrote: Hi Brad. I did test it, hence That does not work. Ahh, sorry. It wasn't clear to me that you had actually tested it or not. My bad. But I do appreciate the reminder, because I had intended to populate that particular autoresponder. And thanks to your note, I have more fully populated the auto-responder for mailman-users-owner and mailman-users-request, too. I'm sorry this has not yet solved your problem, but I do appreciate the opportunity to improve our own configuration even more. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Michael Welch writes: Right, that must be because this list's Sender: header does not look like a real email address. I wonder why ours are different. It's one of the VERP settings. While true VERP is done by the MTA, not by agents like Mailman, the basic idea is the same: to personalize various fields in the message so that the original that elicited a reply (including a bounce) can be identified. IIRC there are two. One which enables VERP for various administrative messages which allows occasional checking for bounces, the other enables it for all messages. I believe this is possible on a per-list basis. You want the latter. The downside is performance, which is why VERP off is the default. Each message has to be composed individually, which increases the processor load a bit. This is probably negligible. More important, each message has to be sent individually, which can dramatically slow down processing if you have any large groups of members served by a single receiving MTA. (It is possible to specify multiple recipients for a single message; the receiving MTA will fetch it from the network once, then distribute copies. Sort of like you fax a handout to the meeting organizer, and he makes Xeroxes for all the attendees. Much more efficient than faxing one to each attendee!) I'm still on Mailman 2.1.5 which doesn't seem to have this feature, or maybe it's only available through the command line interface. If it sounds like what you need, say so and I'm sure somebody will tell you where the setting can be made. Note that this configuration may be disabled or objectionable to your ISP because of the possible impact on performance. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: The downside is performance, which is why VERP off is the default. That and the fact that not all MTAs support VERP at all, and some of the ones that do support VERP don't support it by default. So, we leave this option turned off by default. I'm still on Mailman 2.1.5 which doesn't seem to have this feature, or maybe it's only available through the command line interface. VERP is available on Mailman 2.1.5, but it does have to be enabled in the configuration file, before you can actually see the option in the web admin UI for your list(s). Which is actually the problem here, since the OP is on a shared server and they're not likely to allow him to enable VERP since doing so would make everyone else capable of doing the same thing, and that would probably just *bury* the server performance. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: It's one of the VERP settings. While true VERP is done by the MTA, not by agents like Mailman, the basic idea is the same: to personalize various fields in the message so that the original that elicited a reply (including a bounce) can be identified. Um... Please explain what you mean by ... true VERP is done by the MTA Are you thinking of SRS? I'm not aware of any thing else at the MTA level that will alter the SMTP Envelope sender (MAIL FROM:). As far as RFC 822 headers, that is almost completely up to the MSA. About the only thing that the MTA does is insert (or append) a header if it does not already exist. IIRC there are two. One which enables VERP for various administrative messages which allows occasional checking for bounces, the other enables it for all messages. I believe this is possible on a per-list basis. You want the latter. I think you are thinking of the Non-digest delivery option Personalize and its possible values: No, Yes, and Full Personalization. Yes these are per-list settings. The downside is performance, which is why VERP off is the default. Each message has to be composed individually, which increases the processor load a bit. This is probably negligible. More important, each message has to be sent individually, which can dramatically slow down processing if you have any large groups of members served by a single receiving MTA. (It is possible to specify multiple recipients for a single message; the receiving MTA will fetch it from the network once, then distribute copies. Sort of like you fax a handout to the meeting organizer, and he makes Xeroxes for all the attendees. Much more efficient than faxing one to each attendee!) Correct. However, (IMHO) it does help make your message appear to be less spammy in nature. If you receive two questionable messages, one with your email address listed in the To: / CC: header(s) and one with out it, you are far more likely to consider the one that does not list your email address as spam than the one that does have your email address. Similarly with the use of the name in the email address with Full Personalization. Grant. . . . -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] listname-bounces@
Brad Knowles writes: VERP is available on Mailman 2.1.5, but it does have to be enabled in the configuration file, before you can actually see the option in the web admin UI for your list(s). OK, so that probably was a deliberate decision and won't fly on his ISP. Which is actually the problem here, since the OP is on a shared server and they're not likely to allow him to enable VERP since doing so would make everyone else capable of doing the same thing, and that would probably just *bury* the server performance. Well, maybe if it's not advertised and he asks pretty please with whipped cream and cherries on top and promises cross my heart and hope to die to keep it secret, the List Czar at the ISP will change it only for his list(s) from the CLI. Weak, I know, but it *could* work Good luck! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
