Re: [Mailman-Users] VERP problem
I should add that I also have VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = 1 and get very mixed results. In no case is the confirmation request VERPed, but if I use the administrative web UI to add a subscriber, the welcome msg to the subscribed address is VERPed. If I subscribe using the unauthenticated public web UI (and respond to a confirmation req.) the welcome message is _not_ VERPed. Go figure. I still have no answer to the problem quoted below. Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 11:19:15AM CDT > I admin nearly identical installations of mailman on two different servers. > On both, I have the following set in mm_cfg.py: > > VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes > VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes > VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 > > On one system, running qmail as the MTA, VERP works as expected. On the > other, running courier as the MTA (although qmail is installed as well), I > can't get mailman to use VERP at all. Is it possible that the misbehaving > install won't do VERP because it doesn't recognize the SMTP daemon as being > VERP capable (which it is)? Is there some other config variable I need to > set or something I need to do in the build to make VERP work as expected? > > -- > Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works| PGP public key > FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at > 512-259-1190 |(The Roadie) | <http://www.fmp.com/pubkeys> > http://www.fmp.com| | > > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works| PGP public key FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at 512-259-1190 |(The Roadie) | <http://www.fmp.com/pubkeys> http://www.fmp.com| | -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman and courier - problem solved
OK, the issue was that mailman, when generating VERP address for the envelope sender address for monthly password mailouts uses the _fully qualified domain name_ of the list server system, e.g. "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". Courier's authentication database had an entry for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" but not one for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". Adding an appropriate entry in the auth db for the latter solved the problem and I could safely remove my hack. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works| PGP public key FMP Computer Services | if you let it" | available at 512-259-1190 |(The Roadie) | <http://www.fmp.com/pubkeys> http://www.fmp.com| | -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
[Mailman-Users] Full backup and restore of a mailman list
I run a small hosting service with a number of mailman lists. I need to move all the lists to a new server - list config, subscribers, subscriber options, archives, the whole ball of wax for each list. What's be best way to do this? I tried using config_list (-o on the source end and -i on the receiving end) and list_members with various options but this leaves individual members' options behind. I note that each list has a file called config.pck associated with it in the mutable data tree, and copying this from one server to the corresponding location on the other _seems_ to copy pretty much everything except the list archives. Is this an acceptable way to do such a move? What about moving list archives? How is this best done? I've googled around on the mailman site and elsewhere but can't seem to find a definitive HOWTO on moving lists. I'm sure there must be one somewhere. If anyone knows of such documentation, please point me to it. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Full backup and restore of a mailman list
Thus spake Mark Sapiro on Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 07:25:58PM CST > Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > >I run a small hosting service with a number of mailman lists. I need to > >move all the lists to a new server - list config, subscribers, subscriber > >options, archives, the whole ball of wax for each list. > > > >What's be best way to do this? > > This has been discussed many times on this list. Yep! So I see. I'm sure it's a common problem. > See for example the > entire thread at > <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-October/047233.html> > which involves an upgrade from 2.0 to 2.1 as well. If I'd dug a little deeper I would probably have found the docs you reference. Thanks so much to both of you!!! > Basically you're on the right track - move config.pck files and the > archives/ directory. If any domain/host names are changing see FAQ > 4.29, and as Brad suggests, there's other info in the FAQ too. I'll check it out, but all should be well. I'm just re-vectoring DNS for each list and its associated website from the old server to the new. Again, many thanks for your quick responses! The references you cite have everything I need to do the job. Mailman versions are the same, so there's no file format conversion involved. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailing list not obeying sender filter
Thus spake Steven Jones on Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 08:00:31PM CST
> HI All,
>
>
>
> I am trying to set up a mailing list for unix/linux servers to mail
> into, and then out to the llinux admins.
>
>
>
> I have added the [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] for each server
> to the privacy-option -> sender-filter -> non-member filters box and
> done a submit, but the system is still asking me to moderate the
> emails...while I just want them accepted and posted.
>
>
>
> So this seems to be failing, what have I missed or is something broken?
What's the envelope sender address ("rcpt to") for these messages? Is it
perhaps an address that subscribed with the mod flag set? It's possible to
have one address in the body "From" header and another in the envelope
sender address, and I'm not sure which takes precedence, but I believe that
if one is found among the subscribed members, and the mod flag is set for
that address, then that trumps the allowed non-members list.
I could be all wet on this, but I've seen the same problem with some of my
customers' lists from time to time and it's always something wonky like
this.
--
Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at
512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" |
| (Pamela Jones) |
--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Newly Installed Lists Not Working
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 08:30:02PM CST > Hello, > > > > I have recently setup 3 mailing lists which are using the MailMan 2.1.6 > software. All lists look like they're setup ok, but no messages sent to the > lists go out and the list does not respond to subscribe requests of any > kind. The archives are also not working. > > > > Can anyone offer assistance on this matter? The first resort for any problems involving mail is your mail log. Try and find log entries for your posts to the list, and if they're there, and look like they're successful, look for entries relating to posts from the list server to you. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Bounce scores
I just received a message via one of my list admins from a subscriber who was unsubscribed from a list based on a bounce from last year. The subscriber got a message with the following: > Your membership in the mailing list . has been disabled > due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated > 12-Mar-2005. You will not get any more messages from this list until > you re-enable your membership. Indeed, if I use dbdump to look at the config.pck for the list I see _many_ entries such as the following: '[address_redacted]': http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
Thus spake Anne Ramey on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:06:37PM CDT > > > Dragon wrote: > > Anne Ramey wrote: > >> I have my php script running as a user in the mailman group, but when I > >> try to do: > >>//add user to Admin email list > >>$command = "/usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members -r ".$Filename." > >> admins"; > >>system($command, $status); > >> > >> I get a status of 1 returned to me and it doesn't add the users. I've > >> tried: > >>shell_exec($command); > >> as well but it didn't work either. I can successfully call these > >> functions from my old perl scripts, so I don't think it's a permissions > >> issue. A better look at the permissions issue here would be helpful, since that's the first thing one ought to eliminate. I guess that we can assume you're running this on a 'nix-like OS since you mention permissions. Make sure that /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members has either world read and execute permissions, or group read and execute permissions (dicey from a security standpoint) or that the web server user is a member of group "mailman" (or whatever group your mailman is installed as) and that group read and execute permissions are turned on. If permissions are an issue, there may be other mailman components called into the process by add_members which may also need permissions adjusted. If I run system executables from a web page using PHP I generally do so via a compiled setuid wrapper script which allows execution of the system command as a priveleged user, or in your case as the mailman user. This avoids all such problems. My wrapper program is written in C and has a bunch of security checks built into it, and you can obfusticate it in a number of ways so that it's pretty well inaccessable to a would-be troublemaker. Another possible tool here would be to use passthru() instead of system() which will allow any output from $command to be displayed. Another might be to set $command to point to a shell script which will run add_members, which will allow you to redirect stdout and stderr appropriately. > >> I think I must be missing something in the php. This may be a > >> little out of the scope of this list, but any help would be appreciated. > > End original message. - > > > > This is slightly off-topic but I am sure there are other users out > > there who also use PHP for web scripting to interface to mailman (I do > > on my system, I am far more comfortable with it than Python). > > > > This sounds like PHP is being run in safe mode and the scripts you are > > trying to run are not allowed under the permitted safe-mode commands. > > Safe mode is often enabled by ISPs running servers that host virtual > > domains to prevent users from doing malicious and/or negligent things > > that can damage the file hierarchy or compromise sensitive system > > information. Chapter 9 of the PHP manual describes safe mode and how > > it works. > > > > If you have error reporting to the browser turned off, you will need > > to look in the HTTP server error log to see if PHP is complaining > > about something. You might have to boost the error-reporting level in > > your PHP script using the error_reporting function in your script to > > get the level of detail you need. > > > > Dragon > > > My safe_mode is Off. There are no errors in my http log and none output > to the screen. I can run other commands with system and > shell_exec...just not any mailman commands. > > Anne > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com > > Security Policy: > http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] can't call command line functions from php
Thus spake Lindsay Haisley on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:41:00PM CDT > this on a 'nix-like OS since you mention permissions. Make sure that > /usr/local/mailman/bin/add_members has either world read and execute > permissions, or group read and execute permissions (dicey from a security > standpoint) Sorry, I mis-spoke here! I meant that setting world read and execute permissions is dicey from a security standpoint! -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Announce ONLY list
Under Membership Management, "Set everyone's moderation bit, including those members not currently visible" should be set On (assuming you already have people on the list). Under Privacy Options | Sender Filters, set default_member_moderation to Yes. On the same page, set member_moderation_action to Discard. Also on the same page be sure to set generic_nonmember_action to either Reject or Discard. Thus spake Rob Jackson on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:56:31PM CDT > I need to create an announce only list, where people can subscribe, but they > cannot post. I also have other lists that I will need to create continually > that will not be this way. > > Is there a bit I can set for this list only so the subscribers cannot post. > > Thanks > -Rob > > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com > > Security Policy: > http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce scores
Well, I found http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers@python.org/msg09827.html which rather explains this, and identifies it as a mailman bug. Does anyone know if this has been addressed, or will be addressed in new versions of mailman? Thus spake Lindsay Haisley on Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:11:15PM CDT > I just received a message via one of my list admins from a subscriber who was > unsubscribed from a list based on a bounce from last year. The subscriber > got > a message with the following: > > > Your membership in the mailing list . has been disabled > > due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated > > 12-Mar-2005. You will not get any more messages from this list until > > you re-enable your membership. > > Indeed, if I use dbdump to look at the config.pck for the list I see _many_ > entries such as the following: > > '[address_redacted]': [address_redacted] > current score: 2.0 > last bounce date: (2005, 2, 17) > email notices left: 3 > last notice date: (1970, 1, 1) > confirmation cookie: None > > > I notice two things about these. First, the last bounce date is _way_ in the > past, even though bounce_info_stale_after is set to 12 days. The second is > that the last notice date is bogus. Mailman _is_ resetting bounce > information > since I get many notices such as the following in my mailman logs: > > Sep 18 12:05:24 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce > info, resetting > Sep 18 13:15:55 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce > info, resetting > Sep 18 13:32:43 2006 (17300) listname: [address_redacted] has stale bounce > info, resetting > > ... so it looks as if bounce counts _are_ getting reset. > > This list has been ongoing for a long time, and the entire list was moved to > a > new server early this year and has been functioning normally otherwise. I > suspect that these database entries may have gotten crosswise of a mailman > version upgrade, of which there have been several since the list was moved to > mailman. > > Can anyone tell me how I can straighten this out and get the mechanics of > bounce processing working properly? > > -- > Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key > FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at > 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> > http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | > | (Pamela Jones) | > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com > > Security Policy: > http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Template Token Hell
I'm trying to do a bit of work with Mailman templates. I've hacked the Mailman archiving facility to handle PHP, and have done a bit of work to integrate namazu more seamlessly with Mailman (see http://www.fmp.com/namazu) but I'm up against a veritable jungle of different substitution tokens in different templates. %(listname)s is the equivalent of the Python Mailman var real_name (the "pretty" name) in some places, while in others %(list_name)s is the lower-case name used for directories. Yet other templates use replacement sequences that are more like HTML tags, e.g. "". A. Is there any reference (other than reading code) where all these are defined for the different contexts in which they occur? B. Is there any plan to organize this mess into something more logical? In particular, I'm trying to find out if there's a lower case version of the list name available in archtocnombox.html and archtoc.html (where %(listname)s is the "pretty" name selected by the list administrator), and what other substitution tokens are available in the context of these two templates. Because I've hacked these two templates to use PHP in both public and private archives, I can do a PHP strtolower() call on the string when the index.html file derived from the template is served, but without this hack we have a problem with namazu. Using the system described at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2004-June/037580.html, the namazu CGI and its config program are localized in ~mailman/cgi-bin/listname/ but listname is the "pretty" name, so if I set up namazu for one of my lists and the list administrator changes the capitalization in the real_name, the archive search breaks. Maybe I oughta post this on the dev list. Can anyone here answer it? Brad, maybe I'll see you Thursday and you can answer this personally. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Template Token Hell
Thus spake Mark Sapiro on Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 04:07:58PM CDT > >In particular, I'm trying to find out if there's a lower case version of the > >list name available in archtocnombox.html and archtoc.html (where > >%(listname)s is the "pretty" name selected by the list administrator), and > >what other substitution tokens are available in the context of these two > >templates. > > > In general, the %(key_word)s substitutions are specific to any given > template that uses them and the only ones defined for a specific > template are the ones that appear in the default template. > > It's pretty easy to patch the code to pass additional key_word:value > items to substitute in the template, but it does require patching the > code. See > <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-September/053399.html> > for more info. After I wrote the above, I looked at the code for quick_maketext() and saw where I could do this. My PHP hack does the case-crunching OK for my purposes, but the stuff I'm putting together for Mailman/Namazu integration ought to be able to work without doing anything but modifying the templates. I probably ought to file a feature request that any template which might need it should support a keyword which contains the results of a call to mlist.internal_name() - in particular archtoc.html and archtocnombox.html :-) -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Custom Sign-Up Form
Thus spake Brad Knowles on Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 06:11:28PM CDT > At 8:03 PM +0200 10/16/06, Zbigniew Szalbot wrote: > > > Using this opportunity, has anyone thought of really making all these > > pages simpler, less jargon-free and more understandable for a typical, > > non-technical user? > > That's a wonderful idea. However, since most of the people who > contribute to these efforts are people who've been around for a while > and who understand the importance of things like reading the FAQs, > this is kind of a self-selecting community. > > If you could provide some contributions in this area, that would be wonderful. Anyone that does this kind of thing is a saint! One of my big beefs with a whole lot of open source software is that it's written by, for and about geeks, and while the work would be potentially useful to a lot of people, it's surrounded by a haze of geek jargon that makes it semi-impervious to non-technical minds. I run Mailman lists for the Travis County Democratic Party in Texas, numerous other political groups, and for a couple of musical instrument special insterest groups. While the list admins for these are reasonably tech-savvy, the list subscribers are decidedly not. I have to re-work stuff a lot. For a project I'm working on I just de-geeked the Namazu search engine example page, which used Emacs, FreeBSD and other techie terms as search word examples. I replaced all the geek words with fruits and vegetables. Everyone understands fruits and vegetables ;-) -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Question about Archives
Thus spake Ken Winter on Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 08:49:11PM CDT > Is it possible (as a list administrator/owner) to delete old archives? Yeah, you have to do it from a shell as the mailman user. Edit ~mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox and take out what you don't want. Then run, as mailman, arch --wipe listname > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com > > Security Policy: > http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Question about Archives
But Mark's right. You can't do it as the list admin or owner from the web UI, which is probably a more accurate answer to your question. Thus spake Lindsay Haisley on Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 09:15:05PM CDT > Thus spake Ken Winter on Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 08:49:11PM CDT > > Is it possible (as a list administrator/owner) to delete old archives? > > Yeah, you have to do it from a shell as the mailman user. > > Edit ~mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox and take out what > you don't want. Then run, as mailman, > > arch --wipe listname -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Question about Archives
Thus spake Ken Winter on Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 10:17:32PM CDT > OK, I went to the host and deleted the files 2006-September (a folder), > 2006-september.txt, and 2006-September.txt.gz. Alas, the 9/06 archive is > still listed on the web page. I guess I have to edit index.html in that > folder as well. This won't work. You need to edit the mbox file, which is in ~mailman/archives/private/listname.mbox - not the same as the per-month folders. Deleting per-month folders and the monthly archives won't work. They're re-created from the the mbox file. The mbox file is a single large file containing all the posts to the list. It's a classic Unix format mail file in which each message is delimited with a "From address" line where From has no colon after it, as distinguished from the "From: address" body headers. You will need to delete messages starting with a From line and ending with the line just before the From line on any message not deleted. Then run arch --wipe listname and you'll get what you expect. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Custom Sign-Up Form
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 01:24:42AM CDT > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > For a project I'm working on I just de-geeked the Namazu search > > engine example page, which used Emacs, FreeBSD and other techie > > terms as search word examples. I replaced all the geek words with > > fruits and vegetables. Everyone understands fruits and vegetables > > ;-) > > This is a *great* example of what to do. > > I'm afraid that de-tech'ing the Mailman FAQ, however, is an example of > what *not* to do. I think it should by and large *stay* techie. If > you get referred to the Mailman FAQ, you are probably a list admin > with a problem. In my experience, Mailman does very well at getting > the straightforword stuff right. So if you do have a problem, it's > probably not straightforward. I quite agree. I came in on this thread late in the game, so I'm not aware of exactly what it is that the original post talked about de-tech'ing. Well-written technical documentation, however, is also somewhat rarer than one might hope. Anyone with a technical background, which I have, who's tried to set up the Common Unix Printing System (CUPS) from the ESP documentation has experienced the bleeding edge of bad documentation. It's written in hyper-geek, which might as well be Latin when it comes to finding out the specific meaning of a particular error or the exact steps needed to do a particular job. It's almost axiomatic that people with good technical skills are often verbally challenged when it comes to writing good documentation, whether it's for the general public or for other technical people. This goes all the way back to the 80s and beyond, I'm sure. The user's manual on my first desktop computer, a Kaypro-10, was a disaster area. They'd copied engineering notes and marked them up by hand with a pen, and called it a manual. > Furthermore, email is a large complex system that is *fundamentally* > dependent on standards, which are inherently techie territory. Yep, and RFCs are generally clearly written and logically organized. Any documentation which is based on RFCs, and uses their organization as an example will probably be OK. > Sure, the FAQ could be improved. But it seems to me that there's no > shortage of help available for admins on the list, if you look at the > FAQ but don't understand it. In my experience, list admins are generally not as tech literate as system admins, but for the lists I host they're well above average in their understanding of email protocols and problems. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Serious Performance issue
Thus spake Gadi Evron on Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 10:38:48AM CDT > On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Peter Kofod wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > > > I am new to this list having just implemented mailman for an > > announce-list we host. In short, the performance is horrible. The list > > has approx 40,000 subscribers and the avg message going out is about 40K > > (some embedded imagery). I know we can do better with lazy html etc., > > but the system has become unresponsive. > > Generally, mailman does not really cope with *very* large lists too > well. It is still my system of choice. I would try to profile the problem, chunk it down into components and see where it's taking the most time. My guess is that it's not a Mailman problem, but an MTA problem. "Unresponsive" generally means that your load average has gone way up, which is easy to check using top, and you can also see which processes are eating CPU cycles. The FAQs which Patrick cited look quite helpful, but even so, IMHO, 40K subscribers is a *very* large list. A single 40K message to the list ends up pushing better than a gigabyte of data through your mail server. Load balancing the job across several servers might be appropriate. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Auto-deleting mail from outside .no?
Privacy Options | Sender Filters | reject_these_nonmembers will accept a regular expression. See the help for it. It's a per-list setting. Thus spake Thomas Gramstad on Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 11:00:31AM CDT > I have many small lists in Norwegian and they're all being > hit by a lot of spam. Yes, the spam filter holds them back -- > but then I get a /lot/ of mail about new messages waiting, > and it's a big job moderating them. > > What I really want is the option to set that anything mailed from > an address that does not end with .no is automatically deleted and > I never see it. Is that possible, per list or even per domain/for > all lists? > > Thomas Gramstad > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list > Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com > > Security Policy: > http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Auto-deleting mail from outside .no?
Actually, discard_these_nonmembers on the same admin page I cited is a better option if most of it is spam. Thus spake Thomas Gramstad on Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 11:00:31AM CDT > What I really want is the option to set that anything mailed from > an address that does not end with .no is automatically deleted and > I never see it. Is that possible, per list or even per domain/for > all lists? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Custom Sign-Up Form
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 12:28:56AM CDT
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
>
> > Well-written technical documentation, however, is also somewhat
> > rarer than one might hope.
>
> True. But Mailman's is well better than average in my experience
> because about half of it is in the FAQ, based on the Internet
> tradition of codifying best current practices (ie, summarizing
> Mailman-Users threads).
I've actually been pretty well impressed with the clarity and organization of
Mailman documentation. I really like the help pages for the administration UI
("Details for ") to which I frequently refer people for whom I set up
lists. These pages usually achieve the goal of being technically straight
forward enough to be both helpful to experienced admins and still clear to
relative newcomers. This isn't often an easy balance.
--
Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at
512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com>
http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" |
| (Pamela Jones) |
--
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Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
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Security Policy:
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Re: [Mailman-Users] What is them max subject length?
Are you sure this isn't happening in a mail system component other than Mailman? RFC 2822 specifies that "Each line of characters MUST be no more than 998 characters, and SHOULD be no more than 78 characters, excluding the CRLF." This includes headers. My understanding of this is that an MTA is obligated to properly handle a header line of fewer than 78 characters, and is obligated to handle email with a header line length > 78 and < 998 characters, but may do so creativly, and may reject outright any email with a header line that exceeds 998 characters. What you describe sounds like MTA behavior rather than Mailman behavior. A few simple tests should answer this question. Thus spake Nathaniel Nolet on Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 10:42:40AM CDT > Hello Mailman Users, > > I recently rolled out a new mailserver and decided to use Mailman as > the mailing list software. Everything has been going smoothly except > for one minor issue: it looks like sometimes a subject is too long > and gets turned into "(No Subject)", while the real subject becomes > the first line of the email. I'd like to either change this setting > or let my end users know how long is too long, but I can't find the > max subject length documented anywhere, nor did it jump out at me on > the web interface. > > I'm sure it's documented somewhere, but after checking the FAQ, the > Wiki, Google and The Fine Manuals I'm stumped. Could someone point > me in the right direction? Or does Mailman not do this at all and I > should look into that user's email client? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human | PGP public key FMP Computer Services |creativity is like | available at 512-259-1190 |trying to eradicate | <http://pubkeys.fmp.com> http://www.fmp.com|dandelions" | | (Pamela Jones) | -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
I host a list for about 700 autoharp musical enthusiasts on Mailman 2.1.12. The subscribers are by and large somewhat elderly and non techie, and to most of them an explanation of the difference between HTML-enhanced email and plain text email would be unintelligible geek-speak. I recently received the following email from one of the subscribers: > "Scrubbed" messages as they appear in my cyberpluckers DIGESTS: > This type of problem is perhaps a bit over 6 months old, and evidently > is caused by the manner in which some people have tried to attach > their message to their cyberplucker posting. > > How can this problem be resolved?THANKS ... Drew Smith > *** > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:42:29 -0700 > From: "foo bar" <...> > To: cyberpluck...@autoharp.org > Subject: Re: [CP] Intro > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://www.autoharp.org/mailman/blah/blah//attachment.html > > ... ... other examples I took a look at the list archive and indeed the email appears in the archives also with only a link to the attachment, which is the HTML-enhanced message, visible as HTML code. There's no plain text version in the archive. I explained to the subscriber, and to the list admins, that this (and similar) posts were probably HTML-only posts, and that, absent a plain text rendering in a multipart email, the list server had no way to generate a plain text version, and that including multiple HTML-enhanced emails in a digest was problematic and not going to work very well, if at all. The list admins are aware that plain text is the appropriate format for posting to a mailing list, but subscribers come and go from this list, and as I said, many don't understand such things, and it seems that there are a number of mail programs out there which will generate an HTML-enhanced email without an accompanying MIME text/plain version. The list is configured with mime_is_default_digest set to MIME, which I assume sends digests with each post as a separate attachment (I've never subscribed to the digest for this list, so I don't really know). I had assumed that this might address this problem, but apparently not. One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I rather dislike HTML-enhanced email (to put it gently). There's no fixed standard for it, and what renders one way in one mail reader renders some other way in another mail reader, and it confuses the hell out of list servers. But people will use it, increasingly it seems, and insist on doing so, so somehow this kind of problem needs to be dealt with. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu server 10.04.4 LTS. The offered pacakge version of mailman for this release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1. I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's) motives/reasons for what was done. The most awkward change, for me, is the elimination altogether of the mailman user. Mailman native scripts and utilities apparently get run as root, which as always brings up a whole kettle of security questions. On top of that, I've written a script package to parse and automatically unsubscribe list subscribers based on AOL's "Email feedback reports" for all the lists I host, using, among other things, mailman's python library and the withlist utility. These scripts depend on the existence of a non-privileged Mailman user account with a home dir of /usr/lib/mailman. Yes, I could hack the scripts to make things work, but I'm in the process of a major server move between Linux platforms from different distributions and my time is budgeted. Why was this done? It looks as if I'm going to have to install mailman from source on Ubuntu. I believe the Gentoo download, installed on my older servers, hewed much more closely to the methods and design of the Mailman devs, but I'm wondering what I'm missing here, or if the change was just due to lazy package design on Canonical's part. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather > than 'mailman'. Actually, it's barely the same thing. It appears that qrunner gets run as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables have group execute enabled. I've twisted Mailman 2 in a number of ways, including integrating the namazu list search tool with it for my servers. I'll probably install it from source, as I've done previously, and run with it that way. It may make for more maintenance work later, but the initial installation will probably be easier, and it's only one of very many pieces on a new server which need to be hammered into shape. Thanks. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor." http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 21:26 -0400, David wrote: > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lindsay Haisley > wrote: > On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > > They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it > 'list' rather > > than 'mailman'. > > > Actually, it's barely the same thing. It appears that qrunner > gets run > as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other > Mailman > components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the > executables > have group execute enabled. > > run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms > > the -f option will fix all those permissions. It will remove root as > owner on all Mailman files. Mailman will still run just find on Ubuntu > with the proper permissions set by this script. I'm told this isn't > limited to Ubuntu, but that many other distros need to have the > check_perms script run after any new install or upgrades. > > You may have to run the script more than once. If you want to fix the > perms on the symlinks, you'll have to fix those manually with the "- > h" option on chgrp. When you finish, check_perms will return no > errors, you'll have all the permissions you want, and Mailman will run > fine. I just went through all this. See the list archives for a whole > thread with my questions on this topic. Everything is resolved now. > I'm on Ubuntu 12.04. > Thanks, David. It's probably just as easy to bypass the precompiled Ubuntu package and work straight from the Mailman distribution. If I have issues, which are ususally creative problems with Python, I'd much rather work with the Mailman devs than with Canonical :-) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 11:54 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > But when you do run into issues, whether a need for customization or a > bug, it help a lot to be using something as close to upstream's > recommended configuration as possible. That's why many projects (not > just Mailman) recommend building from source. > > (Yeah, I know you know this, Lindsay. It's worth repeating > occasionally, though. "This automatically-triggered recording was > brought to you by the FLUFL's Fluffy Support Brigade and the Mailman > Devs." :-) Heh!! Yeah, the Mailman developers seem to be a very focused and friendly bunch. Brad Knowles is a friend of mine here in Austin, as we're both members of Austin's Unix professional society. There's also the fact that I've bent Mailman to my will in a couple of departments, forcing it to deal intelligently with PHP and Namazu. As you point out, it's always easiest to start as far upstream as possible when one does this sort of thing. I've moved away from Gentoo for my servers. It's just too much hassle and takes too long to deal with building from source for _everything_, so I let Canonical handle the big stuff and use Ubuntu server on my newest server, and Linux Mint on my favorite desktop. I'm 70 years old. I just don't have the bandwidth, or the time, to learn everything I need to know to keep up with all the dirty details of the ever increasing complexity of a modern Linux installation. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints
If you look carefully at the full headers in the AOL notice you'll see that not all the VERP addresses are redacted. I believe the Sender header isn't redacted. I haven't visited the issue recently since I have a script on my servers which extracts the subscriber address from these AOL notices and automatically unsubscribes it. Lindsay Haisley (512) 259-1190 (land line) (512) 496-7118 (mobile) Sent from my iPhone On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Larry Stone wrote: > > > On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt > wrote: > >> * David : >> >>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? >> >> Of course, just use verp :) >> -- >> > > The last I knew, AOL redacts the user name in their notice. In other words, a > something sent to this list marked as spam will show it as sent from > mailman-users+redac...@python.org. > > I trace then from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs. > > -- Larry Stone > lston...@stonejongleux.com > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and who complain to AOL about list posts being spam. The only explanations that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it according to their own (for profit) model. As of April 4, I was still receiving AOL's Email Feedback Reports with the sender and return-path addresses improperly redacted in included subject emails so that I could parse out the complaining subscriber. e.g.: Return-Path: These reports are fairly rare these days, and I haven't received any of them from AOL since then, although I'm subscribed to their reports for both of my servers. If AOL is now fully redacting subscriber information then indeed perhaps the only way to identify the complaining subscriber is by tracing the Message ID through the mail log files. Another alternative might be to add a header to outgoing messages to include the subscriber address as a hash in an X-something header. Assuming the management of AOL complaining subscribers via their Email Feedback Reports is automated at the list server (as it is here) it should be relatively fast and simple to extract the salt chars from the hash and run a crypt on each subscriber address to see if it matches. Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why they're doing this? It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem policies. What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their policies. No loss there! On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 20:14 -0600, Terry Earley wrote: > We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts > addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope" > can send us the actual address. No good: > > Return-Path: > > To: redac...@aol.com > Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com > Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com > > Terry > fiteyes.com > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com -- Lindsay Haisley | "Never expect the people who caused a problem FMP Computer Services | to solve it." - Albert Einstein 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and who complain to AOL about list posts being spam. The only explanations that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it according to their own (for profit) model. As of April 4, I was still receiving AOL's Email Feedback Reports with the sender and return-path addresses improperly redacted in included subject emails so that I could parse out the complaining subscriber. e.g.: Return-Path: These reports are fairly rare these days, and I haven't received any of them from AOL since then, although I'm subscribed to their reports for both of my servers. If AOL is now fully redacting subscriber information then indeed perhaps the only way to identify the complaining subscriber is by tracing the Message ID through the mail log files. Another alternative might be to add a header to outgoing messages to include the subscriber address as a hash in an X-something header. Assuming the management of AOL complaining subscribers via their Email Feedback Reports is automated at the list server (as it is here) it should be relatively fast and simple to extract the salt chars from the hash and run a crypt on each subscriber address to see if it matches. Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why they're doing this? It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem policies. What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their policies. No loss there! On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 20:14 -0600, Terry Earley wrote: > We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts > addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope" > can send us the actual address. No good: > > Return-Path: > > To: redac...@aol.com > Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com > Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com > > Terry > fiteyes.com > -- > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/fmouse-mailman%40fmp.com -- Lindsay Haisley | "Never expect the people who caused a problem FMP Computer Services | to solve it." - Albert Einstein 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 06:34 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > I can tell you the reasons that management gave at the time I was > working there -- it was all about the privacy of their user. They > said that they wanted to protect the privacy of the person who was > complaining. > So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say "X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber address to which the post is directed? This would, in theory, mostly satisfy AOL's privacy concern since a hash is a one-way encryption and no one could determine the address unless they already had access to the name in the form of the subscriber list so that a hash comparison could be made. I'm not asking for a feature from the devs since I can hack this myself, just perhaps some insight into the implications for a list host that handles no more than half a dozen small mailing lists, each with 1000 subscribers or less. Hacking the message ID out of mail logs to identify the subscriber seems somewhat chancier and more difficult, since mail logs roll over and eventually disappear from the system. All this stuff is scripted here, and works unattended to unsubscribe complaining subscribers, so the overhead is in programming, with a minimal amount in execution time. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Personal patch
Can someone give me some feedback on the following patch to
SMTPDirect.py - whatever I've overlooked, or done that might be
dangerous?
The purpose of this patch is to insert a header, "X-subdata" into VERPed
emails which won't be flagged and redacted by AOL's brain-dead "Email
Feedback Report" system, and will continue to allow my local scripts to
unsubscribe subscribers who hit the "Report Spam" button on their AOL
mail UI.
The content of the header is an MD5 hash of the receiving subscriber's
email address - the same information contained in the Sender and
Return-path headers, normally munged ("redacted") by AOL. The hope is
that this hash will address AOL's privacy concerns, and/or else fall
beneath the intelligence level of their scrutiny.
The address hash can be compared against the list of subscribers to the
list, identified in several (improperly redacted or un-redacted)
headers.
I'm not submitting this as a suggested patch for Mailman, but just
asking for some feedback from people who know the code better than I do.
--- SMTPDirect.py.orig 2012-06-17 17:16:25.0 -0500
+++ SMTPDirect.py 2012-06-17 21:17:25.0 -0500
@@ -43,6 +43,8 @@
from email.Utils import formataddr
from email.Header import Header
from email.Charset import Charset
+from md5crypt import md5crypt
+from random import choice
DOT = '.'
@@ -307,6 +309,9 @@
'host' : DOT.join(rdomain),
}
envsender = '%s@%s' % ((mm_cfg.VERP_FORMAT % d), DOT.join(bdomain))
+saltmarsh =
"ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrsyuvwxyz1234567890./"
+if not msgdata.has_key("X-subdata"):
+msgcopy["X-Subdata"] = md5crypt(rmailbox + "@" +
DOT.join(rdomain), choice(saltmarsh) + choice(saltmarsh))
if mlist.personalize == 2:
# When fully personalizing, we want the To address to point to the
# recipient, not to the mailing list
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe:
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Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Sun, 2012-06-17 at 20:40 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > You could do this, but the question is whether or not that header > would survive through to the complaint you get via their feedback > loop. I doubt that it would, but there's only one way to know for > sure. > My observation has been that the "offending" message returned by AOL's feedback system contains all headers in the original message, with a rather scattershot number of tokens "redacted". I hacked the code and submitted a patch separately for review, if anyone wants to review it. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between a duck is because FMP Computer Services |one leg is both the same" 512-259-1190 | - Anonymous http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 17:03 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > So what would be the implications of hacking an extra header into > > outgoing posts on lists for which personalization is enabled, say > > "X-Subdata", with said header containing a hash of the subscriber > > address to which the post is directed? > > I would use Resent-Message-ID, unless the content of posts is such > that you can get away with munging Message-ID itself. Good suggestion. I assume that Mailman never inserts "Resent-Message-ID" into posts, is that correct? I'd rather not mess with "Message-ID" which provides a traceable path to the original sender. > I would also use a > reversible encryption rather than a hash. (Not so much because it's > reversible, but rather because it's undetectable except insofar as > it's different from standard Mailman.) Suggestions, Stephen? Why would, say, hashlib.md5(recip).hexdigest() be any more or less detectable than a reversible encryption? > > This would, in theory, mostly satisfy AOL's privacy concern > > I really don't think so. It might satisfy *your* privacy concerns, > but their "privacy" concern is absolute. I don't give a rat's behinder about privacy on this issue, only that _I_ be able to identify the complaining recipient, based on having the subscriber lists available, and that AOL and their minions _not_ be able to do so. > That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but if they catch on, they'll > start redacting those headers, too, and quite possibly boot you from > their feedback loop. They've been letting VERPed subscriber addresses through their rather scattershot redaction process for years. I've been parsing them out of the Sender header for about as long and automatically unsubscribing these addresses from Mailman lists. I could easily ignore them and stay under AOL's radar, but I consider it a service to my customers to help them keep their lists free of subscribers who don't want the traffic, no matter how clueless they may be. Doing this as a custom hack helps. If this were implemented as a Mailman standard option then word might indeed get back to them about it. Using Resent-Message-ID as a header name is a clever idea. > As Brad points out, they simply don't care if their members get the > mail that they want. Or at least, they don't care about that anywhere > near as much as they care that their members don't get mail that they > don't want! IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered. They'll go the way of Compuserve :) > > Hacking the message ID out of mail logs to identify the subscriber seems > > somewhat chancier and more difficult, since mail logs roll over and > > eventually disappear from the system. > > If you say so, but *that is under your control*. I'd much rather make > the effort to make my logs dependable, than depend on any cooperation > from AOL. I've seen Email Feedback Reports come in on posts that went out six months prior. Parsing Message IDs out of this many MBs of back mail logs, most of them compressed, would be hugely expensive of processing time. I don't depend on cooperation from AOL, just stupidity, which seems to be pretty dependable :) On the other hand, the process of dealing with these reports only happens a few times a month, at most. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 10:01 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > > IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered. They'll go the way of > > Compuserve :) > > You mean that they'll get bought -- by AOL? ;-) > The irony is not lost :) The snake eats itself tail-first until it disappears. They'll probably get bought by Google! Didn't TW dump them recently? -- Lindsay Haisley | "We are all broken toasters, but we still FMP Computer Services |manage to make toast" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com|- Cheryl Dehut -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 02:11 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > Why would, say, hashlib.md5(recip).hexdigest() be any more or less > > detectable than a reversible encryption? > > Because once the idea becomes public, anybody can check the nonesense > strings in your headers to see if any of them hash to the user's id. > That's a lot more difficult if you use encryption based on a secret > key. Very true, and a good point. A little research turned up http://www.codekoala.com/blog/2009/aes-encryption-python-using-pycrypto/ which is a good discussion of using AES encryption in Python. The Crypto module seems to be standard issue with Python - no special libraries required. > > IMHO, AOL's days on this planet are numbered. They'll go the way of > > Compuserve :) > > Yeah, I hope so. Unfortunately, where I live, NiftyServe still exists > and its customers still put raw Shift JIS in their headers > occasionally. I'm not going to bet on AOL's timely demise. It took a major meteor hit to wipe out the dinosaurs! > > I've seen Email Feedback Reports come in on posts that went out six > > months prior. Parsing Message IDs out of this many MBs of back mail > > logs, most of them compressed, would be hugely expensive of processing > > time. > > Seriously? How many feedback reports do you get per second? Yes, it > would be a little costly, but presumably they give something like a > date, you can narrow it down to a few MB I would guess. Wlll ... The average number of feedback reports / second received on my servers is pretty managable, actually ;) I prefer the idea of using Resent-Message-ID and and AES encryption on the recipient address rather than mucking with log files. It would be nice to put this into the Mailman structure in such a way that I could retrieve, or access the secret key, or at least perform encryption and decryption from a withlist script. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between a duck is because FMP Computer Services |one leg is both the same" 512-259-1190 | - Anonymous http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 13:04 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2012-06-18 12:22 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > Doing this as a custom hack helps. If this were implemented as a > > Mailman standard option then word might indeed get back to them about > > it. Using Resent-Message-ID as a header name is a clever idea. > > I'd also argue that since this is not AOL specific but is a generic way > for a mail system admin to control his own server, and AOL cannot > dictate what you add to your own headers on your own messages, why not > make it part of mailman official, with appropriate warnings about some > brain-dead (probably unenforcable and possibly even illegal) limitations > by certain clueless providers? I agree. Stephen Turnbull points out that using reversible encryption with a secret key would be more secure from the point of view of restricting 3rd party knowledge of the unencrypted/unhashed data. A secret key could be kept per-list or per-site. The ability to securely track recipient information (or any information) across a list distribution, or across a non-delivery bounce might be very useful. It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor." http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 12:05 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > Uh, trust me -- you really don't want to get into the discussion of > creating new SMTP protocol enhancements. I was on the DRUMS WG. You > really, really don't want to go there. > VERP is not an SMTP protocol, but a MTA property supported by many modern MTAs such as Courier. It relies on the fact that MTAs which support it treat user-somed...@example.com as an email address extension of u...@example.com. Pardon me if I'm missing something here. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Never expect the people who caused a problem FMP Computer Services | to solve it." - Albert Einstein 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 14:59 -0400, David wrote: > In terms of privacy, as list admins we already have the member's > information. All we are doing in this case is helping that member stop > receiving messages they obviously no longer wish to receive. This is > clearly not an invasion of privacy (especially with a properly > encrypted implementation). It is a service to the individual (and to > the entire list membership and even the Internet as a whole, I think). Dave, you're spot-on in this assessment, and this is the way I run my business. Unfortunately, the Internet is no longer the kinder, gentler network it was 15, or even 10 years ago. In terms of an effective and progressive attitude toward customer service and satisfaction, AOL's position is 180 degrees counterintuitive and makes NO sense whatsoever. It only makes sense in terms of butt-covering! In that context, it's totally logical. AOL has for years, perhaps always, been infamous for the lousy quality of their email service. FWIW, pursuant to Stephen's comments re. using encryption rather than hashing for passing recipient addresses in headers, I've attached a short Python script which puts short strings of data, such as an email address, into an AES cipher. This could be folded into the Mailman handlers and AES_SECRET_KEY could be put into mm_cfg.py. Hacks to SMTPDirect.py to incorporate an encrypted cipher of the recipient address could make use if it. I believe all the Python modules it uses are standard issue with the distribution. -- Lindsay Haisley | SUPPORT NETWORK NEUTRALITY FMP Computer Services | -- 512-259-1190 | Boycott Yahoo, RoadRunner, AOL http://www.fmp.com| and Verison -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 17:58 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > FWIW, pursuant to Stephen's comments re. using encryption rather than > hashing for passing recipient addresses in headers, I've attached a > short Python script which puts short strings of data, such as an email > address, into an AES cipher. It looks as if the attachment got stripped. Here's the script, based on information at http://www.codekoala.com/blog/2009/aes-encryption-python-using-pycrypto/ class AEScrypt: from Crypto.Cipher import AES from Crypto.Util import randpool import base64 block_size = 16 key_size = 32 mode = AES.MODE_CBC def genkey(self): key_bytes = self.randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(self.key_size) key_string = self.base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(key_bytes)) return key_string def encrypt(self, plain_text, key_string): pad = self.block_size - len(plain_text) % self.block_size data = plain_text + pad * chr(pad) iv_bytes = self.randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(self.block_size) encrypted_bytes = iv_bytes + self.AES.new(self.base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string), self.mode, iv_bytes).encrypt(data) return self.base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(encrypted_bytes)) def decrypt(self, cypher_text, key_string): key_bytes = self.base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string) encrypted_bytes = self.base64.urlsafe_b64decode(cypher_text) iv_bytes = encrypted_bytes[:self.block_size] encrypted_bytes = encrypted_bytes[self.block_size:] plain_text = self.AES.new(key_bytes, self.mode, iv_bytes).decrypt(encrypted_bytes) pad = ord(plain_text[-1]) return plain_text[:-pad] -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, who needs FMP Computer Services |Windows or Gates" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] AES encryption and Resent-Message-ID
Here are a few tidbits pursuant to putting an encrypted copy of a list
post recipient in a "Resent-Message-ID" header, as Stephen Turnbull
suggested. There are four parts:
1. A patch to SMTPDirect.py
2. A secret key entry in mm_cfg.py
3. A utility, ~mailman/bin/aes_genkey, to manage key generation
4. A handler module to do encryption, decryption and key generation -
AEScrypt.py
Here's the patch to SMTPDirect.py (mm 2.1.15):
--- SMTPDirect.py.orig 2012-06-17 17:16:25.0 -0500
+++ SMTPDirect.py 2012-06-18 23:29:58.0 -0500
@@ -43,6 +43,7 @@
from email.Utils import formataddr
from email.Header import Header
from email.Charset import Charset
+import AEScrypt
DOT = '.'
@@ -307,6 +308,11 @@
'host' : DOT.join(rdomain),
}
envsender = '%s@%s' % ((mm_cfg.VERP_FORMAT % d), DOT.join(bdomain))
+try:
+skey = AEScrypt.encrypt(recip)
+msgcopy["Resent-Message-ID"] = skey + "@" + DOT.join(bdomain)
+except:
+pass
if mlist.personalize == 2:
# When fully personalizing, we want the To address to point to the
# recipient, not to the mailing list
mm_cfg.py requires an AES key in AES_SECRET_KEY. Without this, the
Resent-Message-ID header isn't inserted in outgoing posts and everything
works as it does without this stuff.
The AES key can be generated with aes_genkey which lives in ~mailman/bin
and works like other scripts in this directory. Running it with -a
appends AES_SECRET_KEY to mm_cfg.py with an appropriate comment.
~mailman/bin/aes_genkey
---
#! /usr/bin/python
"""Generate an AES secret key on stdout for inclusion in mm_cfg.py as
AES_SECRET_KEY.
Usage: %(PROGRAM)s [options]
Where:
-a append AES secret key to mm_cfg.py
-h / --help
Print help and exit.
"""
import sys
import getopt
import os
import paths
from Mailman import mm_cfg
from Mailman.Handlers import AEScrypt
from Mailman.i18n import _
def usage(code, msg=''):
if code:
fd = sys.stderr
else:
fd = sys.stdout
print >> fd, _(__doc__)
if msg:
print >> fd, msg
sys.exit(code)
def main():
try:
opts, args = getopt.getopt(sys.argv[1:], 'ha', ['help'])
except getopt.error, msg:
usage(1, msg)
for opt, arg in opts:
if opt in ('-h', '--help'):
usage(0)
if opt in ('-a',):
try:
f = mm_cfg.AES_SECRET_KEY
print "AES secret key already in mm_cfg.py"
return(0)
except:
mm = open(os.getenv("HOME") + "/Mailman/mm_cfg.py", "a")
ktxt = """
# Experimental address encryption key. To renew this key,
# delete AES_SECRET_KEY and run 'aes_keygen -a' and restart
# Mailman.
AES_SECRET_KEY = '%s'
""" % (AEScrypt.genkey(),)
mm.write(ktxt)
mm.close()
print "AES secret key added to mm_cfg.py"
return(0)
print AEScrypt.genkey()
if __name__ == '__main__':
sys.exit(main())
The final part is the encryption/decryption module, AEScrypt.py For
this to work the python-crypto ("Crypto") package must be installed.
~mailman/Mailman/Handlers/AEScrypt.py
-
from Crypto.Cipher import AES
from Crypto.Util import randpool
from Mailman import mm_cfg
import base64
block_size = 16
key_size = 32
mode = AES.MODE_CBC
try:
key_string = mm_cfg.AES_SECRET_KEY
except:
pass
def genkey():
key_bytes = randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(key_size)
key_string = base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(key_bytes))
return key_string
def encrypt(plain_text):
pad = block_size - len(plain_text) % block_size
data = plain_text + pad * chr(pad)
iv_bytes = randpool.RandomPool(512).get_bytes(block_size)
encrypted_bytes = iv_bytes +
AES.new(base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string), mode, iv_bytes).encrypt(data)
return base64.urlsafe_b64encode(str(encrypted_bytes))
def decrypt(cypher_text):
key_bytes = base64.urlsafe_b64decode(key_string)
encrypted_bytes = base64.urlsafe_b64decode(cypher_text)
iv_bytes = encrypted_bytes[:block_size]
encrypted_bytes = encrypted_bytes[block_size:]
plain_text = AES.new(key_bytes, mode, iv_bytes).decrypt(encrypted_bytes)
pad = ord(plain_text[-1])
return plain_text[:-pad]
The Resent-Message-ID header has the domain name of the server host
appended to it and this will need to be stripped before decrypting the
address string. Somethin
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 17:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > > > > It might be very convenient to have what one might call EVERP, where the > > > recipient address is encrypted into the envelope sender address, as an > > > alternative choice to Mailman's VERP implementation. > > It's just VERP, please. It doesn't require any difference in MTA > behavior at all. EVERP = Encrypted VERP > > Uh, trust me -- you really don't want to get into the discussion of > > creating new SMTP protocol enhancements. I was on the DRUMS WG. > > You really, really don't want to go there. > > I don't understand the technical issue here. VERP simply requires the > (reasonably standard) existing feature that the final MTA ignore > random goop in the mailbox spec if properly marked (usually with '+', > sometimes with a '-'). As far as I know, no MTA ever checks that the > random goop is well-formed random goop -- that's an oxymoron, isn't > it? If this proposal won't fly, normal VERP shouldn't, either. Exactly. Strictly speaking, this is a MDA issue, although the MTA must accept mail to user-@example.com based on the existence of an mail account for "user". If "user" is a Mailman list, then what's done with is Mailman's concern alone. > And even if one does, the ones we recommend don't, right? So somebody > who wants to use Lindsay's proposal just needs to change MTAs. Not really, because if the MTA and MDA will deal properly with mail addressed to list-bounce+user=example@foo.com, a standard VERP address, it will handle list-bounces+aesencryptedaddr...@foo.com. Only Mailman needs to extend the way it handles the VERPed address. >From a practical point of view my EVERP proposal may not be a good scheme for dealing with AOL's redaction policy in Email Feedback Reports. Although it would obviously fool the existing automated redaction process, a radical change to the contents of the VERP address in the envelope sender would probably attract the notice of a real person, no matter how clueless. Better to go with a "stealth" Resent-Message-ID header. -- Lindsay Haisley |"Friends are like potatoes. FMP Computer Services |If you eat them, they die" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Aaron Edmund -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 13:23 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > On Jun 18, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Larry Stone wrote: > > > And the problem that I'm trying to fix is that their user has > >violated MY TOS regarding reporting list mail (that they subscribed > >to) as spam. That AOL sent their Feedback Loop message to me is > >therefore part of the violation of my terms. So whose terms ends up > >governing when they're in conflict? > > When you sign up for the feedback loop, you do so under the TOS of the > feedback loop. If their user violates your TOS by reporting your list > traffic as spam, that doesn't change the TOS of the feedback loop that > you signed up for. Which brings up an interesting point, albeit it's mostly academic. It's been years since I read the TOS for AOL's Feedback Loop email. Does the TOS disallow trying to determine the address of the recipient, or just acting on this knowledge. The former is unenforceable, as are prohibitions on reverse-engineering proprietary software in my possession. Acting on this knowledge is another matter. I'm free to put whatever information I choose in an email I send to an AOL user, including a header with an encrypted recipient address. If AOL accepts it and sends it back to me in a spam report, and has not redacted information I put into it (and they are free to redact whatever they choose), then I must be able to learn what I can from the offending message, including from the headers. If indeed the TOS prohibits determining the address of the AOL recipient from the email, then it's only enforceable if I take action based on this knowledge, since this hardly rises to the level of industrial espionage. All kinds of things get put into TOS documents that are ridiculous and unenforceable on the face of it. Yes, AOL is under no obligation to send me Email Feedback Reports, and can stop doing so at any time for any reason. They can even cut off access to their user base from my servers. They don't have enough clout on the Internet anymore so that this would really hurt anyone but themselves. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor." http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 17:17 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Nice try, but we still can't define AOL's policy for them. AOL's > claim is that we need to fix our spam problem, not unsubscribe the > member, Isn't that the same thing? The object is to prevent the complaining recipient from receiving offensive emails, whatever one calls them. The complaint is, in AOL's collective mind, evidence of a "spam problem" which needs to be fixed. It's a far stretch of their assumed authority to presume that the "spam problem" is the list itself. What action, other than severing the link between the sender (the list) and the recipient (the AOL subscriber) would AOL expect, or consider a justified use of an Email Feedback Report? > so trying to identify the member *is* an invasion of privacy. Mailman identifies recipients all the time in the process of doing bounce processing. The only difference here is that the bounce is explicitly initiated by the recipient by pressing the "Report spam" button, rather than implicitly by, say, changing email addresses without updating associated list subscriptions. > Nor should we judge what the member "obviously wants," especially > given the draconian "solution." Unsubscribing a list subscriber is hardly draconian. Perhaps banning the user from resubscribing might be considered so, but I don't think that automatic unsubscription of an address rises anywhere near this level. The system I've built here to parse AOL's Feedback Reports uses a withlist script to identify the list administrator and provides him/her with a detailed explanation of the automated action and what the admin's options are, which include counseling the unsubscribed user and re-subscribing him/her. > Unsubscribing the member is a > forceful act that they may not want (you in particular should not > forget that, Dave!) > I would use "intentional" rather than "forceful", and in many cases, perhaps most, hitting the "Report Spam" button is probably seen as a way to to get AOL to help them stop receiving emails that they may have long ago subscribed to, and they don't have the patience or knowledge to jump through the hoops required to explicitly unsubscribe from the list. -- Lindsay Haisley | "It is better to bite a single FMP Computer Services |cannibal than to curse the doggies" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com|-- John Day -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 03:30 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > EVERP = Encrypted VERP > > Ever heard of "Occam's Razor"? Yes, I'm quite familiar with it :) > Most folks who run Mailman lists can't > expand "VERP", and wouldn't understand the expansion when told. It's > not obvious to me that practioners would get it right, either. Let's > not proliferate unnecessary acronyms. I would not presume on the patience of the world (nor of the people on this list) by seriously proposing a YASA (Yet Another Stupid Acronym). My use of EVERP was for reference purposes on this list only. All other uses are explicitly and strictly prohibited. > N.B. That expansion doesn't say what kind of values the "variable" > takes, although the usual implementation assumes a friendly Internet > and uses addressee mailboxes. Wikipedia says, "However, some VERP > implementations use message number or random key as part of VERP", > which is close enough to "encrypted VERP" for me, YMMV. It's just an > implementation detail that really only concerns implementers Exactly. VERP refers to the concept of including a delivery address within the envelope sender address, which takes advantage of the RFC-prescribed practice of returning undeliverable email to the envelope sender address. > I'm not sure of this, but it seems to me that encrypted VERP should > work fine with greylisted recipients (if you can ever call the results > of greylisting "fine" :-P) as long as you don't change the encryption > key very often. Well the implementation I've developed for use with Resent-Message-ID incorporates a random factor into the AES encryption so that every encryption of the same address is different, although all decrypt properly using the key with which they were encrypted. This could, of course, be changed. > In Mailman 3, I would suppose it won't be hard to store the encrypted > form along with the rest of the user's profile. Yes, which would make the VERP consistent, if greylisting cares. It might also be possible to generate and store encryption keys per list rather than per site, as my experimental implementation (mm 2.1.15) does. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 15:05 -0400, David wrote: > Furthermore, without exception on our list, when an AOL user triggers > a feedback report, they do so on all the emails from our list that are > currently in their inbox. There is zero content-specific selectivity. > I've never seen it (on our list). So we may get a dozen or more > feedback reports within a minute, all triggered by the same user and > without regard for the actual content of the messages. I've seen this as well on a number of occasions. As I noted in my previous email, a lot of people, I might say _especially_ AOL users, are not highly computer literate, and many may indeed be computer-phobic. They don't have the patience or confidence to follow the directions provided to properly unsubscribe from a list, so they just find all the list posts that they can and report them as spam, hoping that AOL will help them unsubscribe. -- Lindsay Haisley | "We have met the enemy and he is us." FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | -- Pogo http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 15:51 -0700, William Yardley wrote: > I think the point of the > FBL is more to alert you to problems on your network What problems??? I'm running a collection of opt-in Mailman lists, administered by FMP's customers. There are no problems. > eYes, people will click the "report spam" link by > accident occasionally No, more often than not these reports come in bunches, initiated by the same user. The "report spam" button was obviously pressed with intent. > , but probably not often enough to get you flagged > as a spam source if your lists are genuinely legitimate, and use a > closed-loop confirmation process. This is probably true. > But honestly, AOL is not the 500 lb gorilla they once were, so I > wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it. This is also probably true, fortunately, and in fact the importance of AOL (or lack thereof) probably doesn't warrant the time we've put in discussing their misbegotten policies :) -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human creativity is like FMP Computer Services | trying to eradicate dandelions" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Pamela Jones -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote: > Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too: > http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/ > > It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way > Lindsay and others have proposed. > Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP recipient addresses? -- Lindsay Haisley | "We are all broken toasters, but we still FMP Computer Services |manage to make toast" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com|- Cheryl Dehut -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 21:07 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:55 PM, Lindsay Haisley > wrote: > On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote: > > It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way > > Lindsay and others have proposed. > > Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP > recipient > addresses? > > Yes. > Reading in <http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php+> it seems that "[AOL suggests] using opaque identifiers for the email recipient or a custom remove link in the body of the email to help you identify the original recipient of the message." I would assume that an AES-encrypted email address in Resent-Message-ID or in the VERP address, or even a hashed recipient address in a custom header such as X-Subdata, all of which have been discussed here, would meet the criterion of being an "opaque identifier". Does this sound logical? Of these, an encrypted or hashed recip address in the VERP envelope header seems the most logical, since it seems that we don't have to go "stealth" with this one. Any chance of requesting this in Mailman 3? Looking at a recent Email Feedback Report it looks as if the list name is also pretty well redacted, except in the message footer, the format of which is up to individual list administrators, so maybe the list name or address should be included in this or another encrypted header as well. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The voice of dissent was arrested before FMP Computer Services | the president cleared his throat to 512-259-1190 |speak of freedom" http://www.fmp.com| |-- Chris Chandler -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 14:39 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > Any chance of requesting this in Mailman 3? > > As usual, the advice is to file a bug report/RFE on Launchpad, Mailman > project, tag it Mailman 3 (or maybe that's milestone Mailman 3?) > > If you want more discussion from the core people (well, Barry; Mark's > presumably already said everything he wants to say about this subject > :-), you could send mail to mailman-developers, but I think this idea > is already pretty well-baked, and maybe you even have a patch you > could attach to the issue? I was thinking of posting to the dev list, to which I also subscribe, and inquiring with regard to the advisability of putting this, as you suggested, into the Resent-Message-ID header, as opposed to the VERP address or some custom header. My thinking, from corresponding with Dave and my own observation, is that both the list address and the recipient address should be AES encrypted and passed in a single header, and because this information is pretty much guaranteed to be unique per message, given that my AES encryption routine uses random input, using the Resent-Message-ID header would fulfill a dual purpose and satisfy RFC 2822. The use of this header would depend on whether the current v3 development blueprint has plans for this header which would preempt its use for this purpose. I posted code and patches earlier on this list, but the patch is against Mailman 2.1.15 rather than Mailman 3, which is the current development focus. I imagine it's rather different. I'd have to take a look at the code and figure out where the patch might go. I'm also not up on what the execution time hit would be in generating a short AES cipher for each outgoing message. This might be considerable on a large list with many thousands of subscribers. As it is now, in my patch, if VERP is not enabled, or there is no personalization, which I believe excludes VERP, then no encrypted recipient cipher would be generated. When I get a chance I'll take a look at the v3 code. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 14:48 -0500, Mike Starr wrote: > Many of the mailman cognoscenti are highly skilled technical folks > with little respect (and often little tolerance) for clueless users. > Sometimes you just have to choke back the bile and lovingly correct > those who have less understanding. On the lists which I administer myself I try to make the unsubscribe process very easy and transparent. Every user who tries, unsuccessfully, to unsubscribe is sent the following clear and unambiguous message with easy-to-follow instructions: On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 11:18 PM, Mary Fireman wrote: unsubscribe Hmph. You can't get out that easy. Please Note: In some later model unsubscribe kits, the "OFF" indicator has been replaced by "POWER-UP STANDBY ENABLE". Accordingly the "ON" indicator has been replaced by the much clearer, "POWER-DOWN STANDBY ENABLE". Contact your internet service provider for a list of affected model numbers. An "ON-OFF" retrofit panel kit is available for those who have difficulty with the new and much clearer labeling. First, ask your Internet Provider to mail you an Unsubscribing Kit. Then follow these directions. The kit will most likely be the standard no-fault type. Depending on requirements, System A and/or System B can be used. When operating System A, depress lever and a plastic dalkron unsubscriber will be dispensed through the slot immediately underneath. When you have fastened the adhesive lip, attach connection marked by the large "X" outlet hose. Twist the silver-coloured ring one inch below the connection point until you feel it lock. The kit is now ready for use. The Cin-Eliminator is activated by the small switch on the lip. When securing, twist the ring back to its initial condition, so that the two orange lines meet. Disconnect. Place the dalkron unsubscriber in the vacuum receptacle to the rear. Activate by pressing the blue button. The controls for System B are located on the opposite side. The red release switch places the Cin-Eliminator into position; it can be adjusted manually up or down by pressing the blue manual release button. The opening is self-adjusting. To secure after use, press the green button, which simultaneously activates the evaporator and returns the Cin-Eliminator to its storage position. You may log off if the green exit light is on over the evaporator . If the red light is illuminated, one of the Cin-Eliminator requirements has not been properly implemented. Press the "List Guy" call button on the right of the evaporator . He will secure all facilities from his control panel. To use the Auto-Unsub, first undress and place all your clothes in the clothes rack. Put on the velcro slippers located in the cabinet immediately below. Enter the shower, taking the entire kit with you. On the control panel to your upper right upon entering you will see a "Shower seal" button. Press to activate. A green light will then be illuminated immediately below. On the intensity knob, select the desired setting. Now depress the Auto-Unsub activation lever. Bathe normally. The Auto-Unsub will automatically go off after three minutes unless you activate the "Manual off" override switch by flipping it up. When you are ready to leave, press the blue "Shower seal" release button. The door will open and you may leave. Please remove the velcro slippers and place them in their container. If you prefer the ultrasonic log-off mode, press the indicated blue button. When the twin panels open, pull forward by rings A & B. The knob to the left, just below the blue light, has three settings, low, medium or high. For normal use, the medium setting is suggested. After these settings have been made, you can activate the device by switching to the "ON" position the clearly marked red switch. If during the unsubscribing operation, you wish to change the settings, place the "manual off" override switch in the "OFF" position. You may now make the change and repeat the cycle. When the green exit light goes on, you may log off and have lunch. Please close the door behind you. Occam's Razor strikes again!! -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 20:42 -0400, Dave (FitEyes) wrote: > Now that you motivated me, I actually read the blog post too: > http://postmaster-blog.aol.com/2008/08/13/more-on-the-upcoming-feedback-loop-conversion/ > > It now seems pretty clear that we can use these reports in the way > Lindsay and others have proposed. > Well if this is so, are they still redacting the VERP recipient addresses? -- Lindsay Haisley | "We are all broken toasters, but we still FMP Computer Services |manage to make toast" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com|- Cheryl Dehut -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Trying to install mm 3.0.0b1
I sent this to the dev list and didn't get any answers. It's probably more appropriate on this list anyway. I'm trying to install mm 3.0.0b1 as per the directions in START.rst. I'm running into a bit of a problem with zc.buildout. in the bootstrap.py script. The script reports: $ python bootstrap.py Downloading http://pypi.python.org/packages/2.7/s/setuptools/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg Traceback (most recent call last): File "bootstrap.py", line 254, in ws.require(requirement) File "/tmp/tmp6ebmh9/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 666, in require File "/tmp/tmp6ebmh9/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg/pkg_resources.py", line 565, in resolve pkg_resources.DistributionNotFound: zc.buildout==1.5.2 However; $ dpkg -l python-zc.buildout Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-==-==-== ii python-zc.buildout 1.5.2-1 system for managing development buildouts I explicitly installed it! Do I need to update the mm3 package? Where do I go from here? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 18:23 -0700, Russell Clemings wrote: > >From the reports I've received, it looks as if they redact only from the > headers. With personalization on, I put a "%(user_address)s" token in the > non-digest footer and as of the last report I got (June 8) it came through > the feedback loop intact. This may be true, however relying on cleartext in the footer information to identify the recipient has two problems. First, it restricts the freedom of the list administrator to put whatever he/she wants in the footer, and because the form of footer information is friable, depending on the list admin, it's impossible to write a one-size-fits-all script to pull subscriber addresses from Feedback Reports and deal with complaining subscribers. Putting this information in a header which is added depending only on whether personalization/verp is enabled or not is independent of what the list admin decides he/she wants subscribers to see in the footer - which should be there for the benefit of subscribers, not list admins. Second, putting the subscriber's email address as cleartext in _any_ part of a post makes it subject to AOL's redaction process. Whether or not they are currently redacting this in footer information doesn't mitigate the fact that they reserve the right to do so, according to their TOS. Changes to what is and isn't redacted over the past couple of years indicates that they periodically change or refine this process. It seems, however, according to their online documents, that if the recipient address is encrypted or hashed, then it meets their spec and won't raise objections, or redactions. > I've never figured out a similar fix for digests, > however, and that seems to be where most of the reports come from. So maybe > there's room for a new approach there. If the information in in the header, it's there regardless of whether a subscriber chooses to receive digests or individual posts. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled
On Thu, 2012-06-21 at 15:50 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > On the lists which I administer myself I try to make the unsubscribe > > process very easy and transparent. Every user who tries, > > unsuccessfully, to unsubscribe is sent the following clear and > > unambiguous message with easy-to-follow instructions: > > But no goats?! Isn't that a bit risky? No cows, either, or ducks. This is SCIENCE, Stephen, not agronomics. > Cf. https://bitbucket.org/xemacs/xemacs/src/b4715fcbe001/etc/InstallGuide > Then spit into the computer's ventilation slots. This will complete different > circuits inside the computer, causing its motherboard and cards to function in > ways that the engineers never intended, thereby making your system compatible > with our libraries. > I like this part. What engineers don't understand is that the vital force inside all electronic devices is smoke. All the little jiggery-pokery whatsamadiddle parts work fine until they break open and the smoke escapes. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between a duck is because FMP Computer Services |one leg is both the same" 512-259-1190 | - Anonymous http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Earthlink Feedback Loop
On Fri, 2012-06-29 at 11:57 -0600, Terry Earley wrote: > We want to do all we can to protect our web reputation. We joined all the > feedback loop services we could find. in addition to AOL, hotmail/msn and > Yahoo, I found a list here and applied to others: > http://www.emaillusions.com/2011/02/white-listing-and-isp-feedback-loops.html > > I applied to Earthlink as directed, and when they did not respond, I sent a > 2nd request, and got this reply: This trend _really_ sucks! The Big Guys are breaking the Internet mail system by dividing it up into the "saved" and the "damned". How much longer will it be before we have to have state-issued licenses to operate mail servers on the Internet, or else more likely, have to pay exorbitant sums to these large corporations in order to be allowed to send mail to their users? I'm already finding that I have increasing difficulty of all kinds delivering mail from the lists I host to various subscribers. Email either just plain doesn't make it, or it gets shunted off into a spam or junk folder for no other reason than that the recipient's mail server doesn't recognize the address. This trend has already kicked in with regard to other services, such as the registration of domain names. Independent registrars now have to pay tens of thousands of dollars annually to operate as registrars. The survivors are either affiliated with big organizations such as CORE, or are the mega-bucks registrars such as GoDaddy. It's no longer the kinder, gentler Internet I signed on to work with 15 years ago or so. Trust, real creativity and cooperation - values which made the Internet what it is today - are becoming increasingly hard to find at the small business level at which I operate. Terry, I'll bet if you found the right person at Earthlink and greased the right palms with several hundred $$ you'd get whitelisted and subscribed to their feedback loop with no problem. -- Lindsay Haisley | SUPPORT NETWORK NEUTRALITY FMP Computer Services | -- 512-259-1190 | Boycott Yahoo, RoadRunner, AOL http://www.fmp.com| and Verison -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Problems under OSX Lion
On Sun, 2012-08-19 at 12:22 +0900, Matthias Schmidt wrote: > Am 13.08.2012 um 00:25 schrieb David Dodell: > > > This list is my last hope on getting my problems fixed. > > > > I am running OSX Lion (not Mountain Lion). Mailman was part of > > the default installation. > > > > I have two issues which I have gotten absolutely no help from Apple > > Enterprise Support ... basic answer, we don't support open source > > > software and couldn't answer me on why they installed / advertised > > > mailing lists but don't support it ... but I regress. There are lots of mailing lists available. Mailman is only one of them. Apple no doubt supports _a_ mailing list, but as Apple Enterprise Support says, one can seldom expect support from a proprietary software vendor for software which isn't their own. > > (1) First issue is cosmetic.At the bottom of each administrative > > page, mailman does not display the icons which I see on ever other > > > mailman website ... basically the mailman / python logos. Not a > > > real big deal, besides the cosmetic irk. I've checked the docs, > > > found the path in the config file, and sure enough the images are > > > there in the path, but they still do not display. Ideas? > > where is apache looking for the icons. > I think I read on the OS X Server List that the icons are on a > different place than they should be. Look in your apache error log. If a page is trying to display a graphic, another page, or any file that's linked from a served page, and apache can't find it, it'll log the error. > > (2) Second issue is more serious.I can't get list moderation to > > work.A message comes in to be moderator, I get email >> notification of this. However, if I login to the administrator >> page, "pending moderator requests", if I try to approve, reject, or >> any other command on that page, NOTHING happens ... the message keeps >> appearing, no action is taken etc. > > anything in the logs (apache, mailman ...)? The vast majority of problems on any Unix type system leave footprints in logs at a system level. These are definitely your first recourse in any investigation. Logs in Unix-type OSes (OS X, Linux, BSD, etc.) are almost invariably in /var/log, and are one of the things I really love about Unix-flavor systems :) > > > > I've repaired all permissions, but besides that, lost on what to try > > next. > > did you try your own install of mailman as it was suggested on the os > x server list? I've very frequently had the best luck installing Mailman (and other software packages) from a tarball and _slavishly_ following the install directions. My policy on such installs out of the chute is: do not deviate, do not pass Go, do not collect even a singly byte of what you perceive as slack! If the install screws up and some part of it won't work, you have a clear path back from which others on forums such as this one can follow your tracks, plus if there's a genuine bug, you can report it as same without concern that it might be the result of some step you skipped, or added, or some non-standard procedure that you followed. If one does a totally politically correct install, and still has problems, then it's time for some sleuthing and experimentation. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Never expect the people who caused a problem FMP Computer Services | to solve it." - Albert Einstein 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Problems under OSX Lion
On Sun, 2012-08-19 at 22:33 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote: > Regretfully, the Server team at Apple is well known for ignoring > feedback and input from anyone else, especially anyone else in the > company. My guess is that they don't put their top-flight people on either server development or server support. Apple isn't know for servers, it's niche markets being audio recording, graphics editing and consumer desktop and laptop systems. I've also observed, with somewhat limited experience, that Apple doesn't respond to complaints about bugs. People bitched and moaned on Apple's user forum about a recent problem with video-induced kernel panics in Lion (which I also experienced) and Apple never responded, but the problem was fixed in a subsequent release. > but if they're going to make modifications to it, they need to share > those modifications back with us Doesn't their failure to do so violate the GPL? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Problems under OSX Lion
On Mon, 2012-08-20 at 21:39 +0300, Geoff Shang wrote: > On Mon, 20 Aug 2012, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > I've got a copy of Mountain Lion server (it's only $20), and the code in > > question is Python, so it has to be shipped as source. So, if we want > > their changes, it's easy enough to get them. > > Actually, it doesn't have to be shipped as source. They could ship just > the .pyc files. The GPL only requires that the source be "made available", yes? So functionally the .pyc files would be adequate for all but a few files such as Defaults.py, with the full .py source withheld pending a specific request for it, as prescribed by the GPL. Doing this would minimize redundancy and would make sense, from the point of view of a proprietary software vendor such as Apple. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between a duck is because FMP Computer Services |one leg is both the same" 512-259-1190 | - Anonymous http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Group mismatch puzzle
I've set up mailman 2.1.15 on a new server, properly configured with "--with-mail-gid=mail" and I can create lists from scratch on it, and they appear to be working perfectly. I have a number of lists on an older server, however, (also running mailman) which I want to move to the new server. I have a script which I've used previously with good results to do this which creates three tarballs: * The contents of the directory /var/lib/mailman/lists/ * The archive files under /var/lib/mailman/private/ * The mbox file in /var/lib/mailman/private/.mbox Additionally a flag file indicates whether or not archives are public. The receiving server has a script which just undoes this, putting all the files in the right place and creating a symlink in /var/lib/mailman/public if the flag file is present indicating that the list has public archives. This script pair worked perfectly for moving lists between servers using the same Linux distribution, but at this point I'm moving from a server running Gentoo Linux to one running Ubuntu Server Linux, where the GID table is somewhat different. When I try to post to a _moved_ list, I get a failure with the following error in the mail logs: Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group "mail", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group "man". Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group "mail", or re-run configure, providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=man'. [i.e. "mail" != "man"] It seems that the group "mail" has a GID of 12 on the old server, however this GID corresponds to the group "man" on the new server and "mail" has a GID of 8. All the group ownerships of the pickle files and archive files are proper on the new server (group "mailman") so the GID if 12 must be encoded as a number somewhere _within_ the list files imported from the old server, and when the list is put in place on new server, the GID is matched up with the group "man", and a group mismatch is flagged. Does anyone have any idea how to fix this? I can't find any way to access the mail wrapper script GID in the list web UI (which apparently is stored per-list since lists created _on_ the server work OK). I have bunch of lists to move, so this will need to be fixed. Recreating all lists manually with their thousands of administrator and user prefs is out of the question! -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch puzzle
I've looked into the pickled files for the problem list with dumpdb and found no reference to the GID which might lock the "mail wrapper script" onto the group ID of the server from which the list was exported. Googling for "mail wrapper script" turns up lots of references, going back many years, to the problem of an improperly set --with-mail-gid at configure time, however this isn't the case here, since this was properly set on the new server, and the problem occurs only with a list imported from the old server where the numeric GID was different from that of the "mail" group on the new server. check_perms returns "No problems found". What is the "mail wrapper script" to which the error message refers? On Mon, 2012-08-27 at 00:41 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > I've set up mailman 2.1.15 on a new server, properly configured with > "--with-mail-gid=mail" and I can create lists from scratch on it, and > they appear to be working perfectly. > > I have a number of lists on an older server, however, (also running > mailman) which I want to move to the new server. I have a script which > I've used previously with good results to do this which creates three > tarballs: > > * The contents of the directory /var/lib/mailman/lists/ > * The archive files under /var/lib/mailman/private/ > * The mbox file in /var/lib/mailman/private/.mbox > > Additionally a flag file indicates whether or not archives are public. > > The receiving server has a script which just undoes this, putting all > the files in the right place and creating a symlink > in /var/lib/mailman/public if the flag file is present indicating that > the list has public archives. > > This script pair worked perfectly for moving lists between servers using > the same Linux distribution, but at this point I'm moving from a server > running Gentoo Linux to one running Ubuntu Server Linux, where the GID > table is somewhat different. When I try to post to a _moved_ list, I > get a failure with the following error in the mail logs: > > Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the mail > wrapper script to be executed as group "mail", but > the system's mail server executed the mail script as > group "man". Try tweaking the mail server to run the > script as group "mail", or re-run configure, > providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=man'. > > [i.e. "mail" != "man"] > > It seems that the group "mail" has a GID of 12 on the old server, > however this GID corresponds to the group "man" on the new server and > "mail" has a GID of 8. All the group ownerships of the pickle files and > archive files are proper on the new server (group "mailman") so the GID > if 12 must be encoded as a number somewhere _within_ the list files > imported from the old server, and when the list is put in place on new > server, the GID is matched up with the group "man", and a group mismatch > is flagged. > > Does anyone have any idea how to fix this? I can't find any way to > access the mail wrapper script GID in the list web UI (which apparently > is stored per-list since lists created _on_ the server work OK). I have > bunch of lists to move, so this will need to be fixed. Recreating all > lists manually with their thousands of administrator and user prefs is > out of the question! -- Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor." http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Group mismatch puzzle - SOLVED!
As I had begun to suspect, this had nothing to do with Mailman. I imported MySQL records from the old server for authenticating mail users and assigning virtual mailboxes. All of these contained numeric GID records appropriate for that installation, and the mail server indeed ran with that GID when communication with Mailman. A single MySQL command corrected this for 260 mailboxes and alias accounts and all is well! My scripts which created _new_ records in this db set the proper GID out of the chute. .linuxmint.com/start/lisa/On Mon, 2012-08-27 at 10:32 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > I've looked into the pickled files for the problem list with dumpdb and > found no reference to the GID which might lock the "mail wrapper script" > onto the group ID of the server from which the list was exported. > Googling for "mail wrapper script" turns up lots of references, going > back many years, to the problem of an improperly set --with-mail-gid at > configure time, however this isn't the case here, since this was > properly set on the new server, and the problem occurs only with a list > imported from the old server where the numeric GID was different from > that of the "mail" group on the new server. > > check_perms returns "No problems found". > > What is the "mail wrapper script" to which the error message refers? -- Lindsay Haisley | "The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Mailman and SpamAssassin
I'm putting in a new server and would like to integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman (2.1.15) according to the directions previously posted online at http://www.jamesh.id.au/articles/mailman-spamassassin/, which I updated at http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030589 and have been using successfully on another server. Unfortunately, the original article is no longer online. Does anyone know if there's a mirror or archive of it somewhere? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Mailman and SpamAssassin
I'm putting in a new server and would like to integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman (2.1.15) according to the directions previously posted online at http://www.jamesh.id.au/articles/mailman-spamassassin/, which I updated at http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030589 and have been using successfully on another server. Unfortunately, the original article is no longer online. Does anyone know if there's a mirror or archive of it somewhere? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] List moving and renaming
I'm both moving and renaming a customer's list. The list's current name resembles frob...@lists.fmp.com. After the move, on the new Mailman installation, it will be called something like fbl...@frobniz.com. Forwarding mail addressed to the old list to the new list address is no problem. The list administrator will announce to the subscribers that the list's name will change, but there will inevitably be subscribers who will miss the announcement and send mail to the old list address. Will Mailman on the new server reject redirected email if addressed to the old list name, even if the sender's address is in the subscriber list? If so, is there any way to get around this? -- Lindsay Haisley | "We have met the enemy and he is us." FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | -- Pogo http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Tue, 2012-10-23 at 01:31 +, Kalbfleisch, Gary wrote: > I personally don't care for CAPTCHA but it exists for a reason. If > anyone can suggest a better solution I would love to here it. Right > now Mailman is being exploited to email bomb individuals and DOS email > systems. This cannot continue. > Take a look at <http://areyouahuman.com/>. While this technology may not solve all the problems presented by CAPTCHAs, this is certainly a promising direction in which to look for alternatives. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Behold! Our way lies through a FMP Computer Services |dark wood whence in which 512-259-1190 | weirdness may wallow!” http://www.fmp.com| --Beauregard -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Too many recipients
> Hi, when I try to send an e-mail to my list (only one recipient, the list > itself), I get these: Aren't you creating a loop here? Why are you putting the list itself on the list as its only recipient? This appears to me to be an invitation for an endless loop. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Too many recipients
On Mon, 2012-10-22 at 13:46 -0200, Rodrigo Abrantes Antunes wrote: > Any ideas? > The behavior of Mailman with respect to the number of recipients specified in any single SMTP transaction is controlled by SMTP_MAX_RCPTS, which should be less than the max number of recipients allowed by the SMTP server for any single transaction. If your setting up this loop to stress-test your installation, set SMTP_MAX_RCPTS in mm_cfg.py to a small enough number to pass muster with the contas SMTP server. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor." http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Too many recipients
On Tue, 2012-10-23 at 18:21 -0200, Rodrigo Abrantes Antunes wrote: > I didn't set any loop, the list's e-mail obviously isn't a list member, > what I said is that when you want to send and email to the list you put > the list's email in the "To:" field and that's the only recipient when I'm > sending e-mail, I'm not putting more recipients in "to:" field wich could > burst the limit of max_num_recipients if this limit was set. OK, I'm sorry. I misunderstood. > I've set SMTP_MAX_RCPTS to 250 in mailman and smtpd_recipient_limit to 300 > in postfix and I'm still getting these errors. Did you restart Mailman and postfix? What do the Mailman log files show with regard to the number of recipients (smtp log) and the number of failures (post log) _after_ your changes and a restart of both postfix and Mailman? What's the total number of subscribers on the list (i.e. how many "rcpt to" addresses did Mailman _attempt_ to submit for posting)? Do your mail system logs shed any light on anything? My mail logs are always my first stop when trying to debug a mail problem. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human creativity is like FMP Computer Services | trying to eradicate dandelions" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Pamela Jones -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Too many recipients
On Tue, 2012-10-23 at 13:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > On 10/23/2012 1:21 PM, Rodrigo Abrantes Antunes wrote: > > > > I've set SMTP_MAX_RCPTS to 250 in mailman and smtpd_recipient_limit to 300 > > in postfix and I'm still getting these errors. > > Did you restart Mailman IMHO, a restart of postfix would probably be in order, too. I know that many settings in my mail server, courier MTA, require a restart of the server after changing them in order for them to take effect. Mark, Brad, etc. I have a question here. Rodrigo says that in his Mailman smtp log, a SMTP transaction to contas for 828 recipients was "completed in 1.705 seconds" Mailman also reports a _temporary_ failure of 450 addresses. Because this is a 4xx class error, can one assume that after accepting smtpd_recipient_limit "rcpt to" addresses, postfix started rejecting each new address with a 452 (4.5.3) error, and that Mailman continued to attempt to send recipients in spite of this? - after which Mailman sent, and postfix accepted, the body of the message? This is the only scenario that makes any sense in light of the reported temporary failure. Is Mailman smart enough to pick up the thread on this and re-send to those addresses which were refused? The only other possible scenario is that the SMTP server bounced the entire message after transmission of the message body was complete, based on an excessive number of recipients. In this case, wouldn't it make more sense for the mail server to return a 5xx (permanent) class error? Inquiring minds want to know. I don't know postfix, and because all my outgoing lists have VERP personalization enabled, this problem never comes up here. -- Lindsay Haisley | "We have met the enemy and he is us." FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | -- Pogo http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Wed, 2012-10-24 at 11:57 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > Take a look at <http://areyouahuman.com/>. > > I just tried their sample. I'd rather face a CAPTCHA! And their > twitter feed reads like spam -- same comments, same apparent author, > different avatar. Not a great start if they want to captcha my lists! > ;-) Well that's understandable. Their enterprise has a bit of the flavor of a small-time hustle; nonetheless, my point is that they seem to have focused on a simple paradigm that would be very hard to crack short of some sort of advanced AI technology. It's this aspect that bears exploring. > Seriously, I can see how it would work if they got the human factors > right. Also seriously, do they have an accessible alternative? (No > less than three of the people who currently aren't on my list that I > wish were on it are somewhere between totally blind and "visually > challenged".) And of course nothing visual works if you use a text > browser. It's not hard to imagine an audio equivalent - a simple puzzle, such as "Press 1 when you hear the sound of a duck". This example would be culturally constrained (people with no experience with ducks would be puzzled!) but this is a direction to consider. All captchas are by their very nature culturally constrained to a greater or lesser degree. > In general, it's still a stopgap. Requiring a test is offensive to > real people. If you want to live only in meatspace (and be > untrackable in the virtual world), I guess that's unavoidable. But > for the vast majority of people, they just want to have an ID they can > use to sign up anywhere, without being treated like the spamming > equivalent of HIV. Any solution to the problem is going to have to be anchored in meatspace. This is the bottom line on detecting the difference between bots and people. Life is a study in tradeoffs. The tradeoff of having "an ID they can use to sign up anywhere, without being treated like the spamming equivalent of HIV" would probably be a gross loss of anonymity, the digital equivalent of having a passport which could be verified through a government's department of state. This might be just as onerous to some people as a captcha or a puzzle. Yes, some people consider a captcha to be offensive, and I've had colleagues who won't use them for sites where they really don't want to communicate the slightest hint of suspicion to visitors, such as political organizations that are eager to sign up volunteers or supporters. A captcha becomes kind of like passing muster with a bouncer who's making sure that a club's dress code is observed. On the other hand, most people get spam, and hate it, and can appreciate that their own interests are served by having to jump through a hoop or two to make sure that they're entering a bot-free zone. I think a lot of the acceptability of such schemes hinges on how they're presented and introduced in the context of their usage. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Friends are like potatoes. FMP Computer Services |If you eat them, they die" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Aaron Edmund -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman running very slow
On Wed, 2012-10-24 at 09:54 -0400, Richard Shetron wrote: > Oct 23 13:42:13 2012 (19673) > <7.0.1.0.0.20121016133607.0469b...@marchreport.com> smtp to > marchreport_daily_alert_ctc10 for 2 recips, completed in 168.029 > seconds > > That seem to be a very long time for processing a list. > Yes, that's a long time. If nothing has changed in your Mailman installation, I'd guess you're looking at an issue with the SMTP server, or possibly a network issue. A look at your mail server logs and the timestamp data therein should give you a finer-grained look at the timing of SMTP events associated with Mailman's outgoing posts. Another very useful tool for analyzing mail issues is swaks. -- Lindsay Haisley | "We are all broken toasters, but we still FMP Computer Services |manage to make toast" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com|- Cheryl Dehut -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman running very slow
On Wed, 2012-10-24 at 11:06 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Another very useful tool for analyzing mail issues is swaks. > > Now that's a tool I had not heard of before. I'm assuming you mean > the tool at <http://www.jetmore.org/john/code/swaks/>? > That's the one. I used to test SMTP stuff by using telnet to port 25 and talking to an SMTP server, but swaks does all the lifting for you, and gives you a terminal display of the entire dialog in real time, so you can see where a SMTP transaction is hanging, or timing out, or whatever. It's written in perl, and self-docs with a man-page like help system. It has a ton of useful options, and is truly, as advertised, "the Swiss army knife for SMTP". As a mail admin, I couldn't be without it :) -- Lindsay Haisley | "Behold! Our way lies through a FMP Computer Services |dark wood whence in which 512-259-1190 | weirdness may wallow!” http://www.fmp.com| --Beauregard -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman running very slow
On Thu, 2012-10-25 at 15:10 -0400, Richard Shetron wrote: > What arguments do you use to pretend to be mailman delivering to postfix > with swaks? I would run swaks from the same box on which you run Mailman, and use -f with whatever Mailman uses as the envelope sender address for posts, If you have VERP personalization turned on, this would be a "bounces" address. Send to a sample (test) address that's on the list, and use -s with the FQN of the server which your Mailman installation uses. All of this assumes, of course, that you're using postfix as a SMTP server (DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect' as opposed to DELIVERY_MODULE='Sendmail'). If you're using the latter, then swaks won't help you. BTW, it would be a good idea if you'd cc questions such as this to the list. There are some very good minds on the list who might well chime in helpfully, and/or critique my response. > I'm running on too much stress, too little sleep/food ;) > > > On 10/24/2012 2:17 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > > On Wed, 2012-10-24 at 11:06 -0700, Brad Knowles wrote: > >>> Another very useful tool for analyzing mail issues is swaks. > >> > >> Now that's a tool I had not heard of before. I'm assuming you mean > >> the tool at <http://www.jetmore.org/john/code/swaks/>? > >> > > That's the one. I used to test SMTP stuff by using telnet to port 25 > > and talking to an SMTP server, but swaks does all the lifting for you, > > and gives you a terminal display of the entire dialog in real time, so > > you can see where a SMTP transaction is hanging, or timing out, or > > whatever. It's written in perl, and self-docs with a man-page like help > > system. It has a ton of useful options, and is truly, as advertised, > > "the Swiss army knife for SMTP". As a mail admin, I couldn't be without > > it :) > > -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman running very slow
On Fri, 2012-10-26 at 14:02 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > I would run swaks from the same box on which you run Mailman, and use -f > > with whatever Mailman uses as the envelope sender address for > > posts, > > Wow, that's cool! Thanks for the tip! I would have thought that everyone who works with or develops any application or server that handles e-mail would know about swaks. But then I kind of live in a bubble out here in the boonies of Texas. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 23:53 +, Kalbfleisch, Gary wrote: > I am running 2.1.9 because that is the latest version available from > Redhat as a package. It's relatively simple to install Mailman from the source package, but one thing that would help a great deal with this would be default inclusion in the built package of a standard text or script that would contain, or issue, the arguments provided to configure during the build process. There are several critical parameters including the prefix, the var-prefix and of course the mail-gid which ought to be readily available for this purpose. If you've already built Mailman from source, this information is of course available in the config.log, but for people installing Mailman from an outdated package from a distribution, and wanting to catch up with the latest improvements or security fixes, having this information available as part of the distributed end product would be a big help. This is already done for many large and complex packages, would be a big help in making the transition from a pre-built Mailman package to a source-based update. Maybe this information is already available. I only spent about 5 minutes looking for it outside of the source tree and couldn't find it. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Behold! Our way lies through a FMP Computer Services |dark wood whence in which 512-259-1190 | weirdness may wallow!” http://www.fmp.com| --Beauregard -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Mon, 2012-10-29 at 11:43 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > See <http://wiki.list.org/x/KYCB> and the Mailman-Developers post linked > therefrom. It's probably out of date and does not directly address the > issue of making this information available as part of the 3rd party > package, but it is probably still useful to someone trying to upgrade > RedHat Mailman from source. Yes, this article is very informative, and at present may be the best thing available for an old-package to new-source upgrade. And yes, it does not address the issue of making this information available as a default part of the 3rd party package. Such an enhancement would obviously not help anyone using a currently "older" Mailman package, but going forward, say into MM3, it might be a good idea to make this information available in some such way. I use courier as a MTA, and courier has a "courier-config" executable in /usr/bin which spits out all sorts of useful build information, including the package creator's build-time configure args. -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between a duck is because FMP Computer Services |one leg is both the same" 512-259-1190 | - Anonymous http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Mon, 2012-10-29 at 14:14 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-10-29 at 11:43 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > See <http://wiki.list.org/x/KYCB> and the Mailman-Developers post linked
> > therefrom. It's probably out of date and does not directly address the
> > issue of making this information available as part of the 3rd party
> > package, but it is probably still useful to someone trying to upgrade
> > RedHat Mailman from source.
>
> Yes, this article is very informative, and at present may be the best
> thing available for an old-package to new-source upgrade. And yes, it
> does not address the issue of making this information available as a
> default part of the 3rd party package.
Adding this feature would involve only about 6 lines of code :)
in configure.in:
--- configure.in.orig 2012-10-29 14:37:31.0 -0500
+++ configure.in2012-10-29 14:59:13.0 -0500
@@ -18,7 +18,8 @@
AC_REVISION($Revision: 8122 $)
AC_PREREQ(2.0)
AC_INIT(src/common.h)
-
+CONFIGURE_CLI="$0 $@"
+AC_SUBST(CONFIGURE_CLI)
# /usr/local/mailman is the default installation directory
AC_PREFIX_DEFAULT(/usr/local/mailman)
@@ -683,6 +684,7 @@
contrib/qmail-to-mailman.py \
contrib/courier-to-mailman.py \
contrib/rotatelogs.py \
+contrib/mm-config \
cron/bumpdigests \
cron/checkdbs \
cron/cull_bad_shunt \
And in the contrib directory, a short script, mm-config, to display this
information:
#!/usr/bin/python
print """Mailman was built with the following configuration invocation:
%s""" % ("@CONFIGURE_CLI@",)
This properly belongs on the mailman-developers list, so please excuse
my posting it on the thread here, but I though the discussion might be
useful. I also posted it to the developers list.
--
Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies"
FMP Computer Services |
512-259-1190 | - xkcd
http://www.fmp.com|
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Mon, 2012-10-29 at 21:04 +, Kalbfleisch, Gary wrote: > I like to stick with packages when possible because it makes > maintenance much easier. As do I. There are times, however, when mission-critical packages in a distribution are outdated, or absent, or broken and building from source is the only option. IMHO, having the knowledge and the tools on one's system to do builds from the upstream source is an important system administration skill. I always seem to have one or two packages on any box that end up being built from source. Mailman is one of them, because I have a number of patches for it that I've developed, and because building and installing it from source is very easy. Juggling packages vs. upstream source is something you get used to. All package management system that I know of have ways of freezing packages at a certain level or version so that your custom builds don't get crosswise of package management. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests
On Tue, 2012-10-30 at 04:56 +, Kalbfleisch, Gary wrote: > Don't assume that I don't have the skills. I don't. Please accept my apology if you thought that I implied this. > I have been building the linux os from source since long before most > people even heard of the Internet. I manage my time very carefully, > and mailman is a very small part of what I do. The newest version of > mailman does not resolve any of the issues that I have been > expiriencing if you have read my posts. Yes, I have been following the thread. An update to a newer version of MM would allow you to bulk-delete spurious subscription requests - a small advantage, to be sure, but a time-saver over versions which didn't offer this administrative feature. > I have implemented the security measures required using other means > until such a time that they are resolved in mailman. FWIW, I've had very good results using SpamAssassin as a pre-filter for Mailman, using James Henstridge's package (patched for post MM versions >= 2.1.10). See: http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4030589 http://www.jamesh.id.au/articles/mailman-spamassassin/ This filter also blocks a lot of spurious subscription attempts, according to my list hosting customers, who have told me that the filter has substantially reduced the amount of administrative spam they have to deal with (compared to when the filter has not been in place) and haven't mentioned a problem with false positives. I know this filter is quite old, but with the patch for more recent MM versions (wiki.list.org) it seems to work quite well. Servers here also block email at the front door based on the CBL advisory list, which probably also helps. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor." http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] error message while adding members
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 21:47 +0530, Amit Bhatt wrote: > I am sorry, it is version 2.1.1.15. > I believe the form timeout feature, and the related error message, were introduced in 2.1.15 and aren't present in earlier versions. Mailman uses the standard version numbering scheme of Major.Minor.Revision and a 4th number, if it's there, may possibly be a distribution (downstream) number. From a cmd line: ~mailman/bin/version Will give you the correct number, assuming you're using a Unix-like OS. Also http:///mailman/listinfo will show it to you at the bottom of the page. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] error message while adding members
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 07:52 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > What the message is telling you is that the mass subscribe form you are > submitting was retrieved from the host longer than FORM_LIFETIME > before it was submitted. If this is not the case, there is some issue > in your web server. Perhaps the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/ioA9> > is applicable. Could this be caused by a web proxy that's improperly caching the form page and serving it to the client in spite of the fact that csrf_token has changed? Or improperly indicating to the client that the page hasn't changed so that the client displays from its its own cache instead of requesting it again from the server? Amit, I think a good test here would be to clear your browser's cache, reload the subscription form, and see if you get the same error. The experts may have a better suggestion, but this is what I'd try. -- Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, who needs FMP Computer Services |Windows or Gates" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] error message while adding members
On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 23:19 +0530, Amit Bhatt wrote: > Dear Lindsay, > > Thanks for your excellent suggestion, it has worked for me! > > Now the subscription is being done smoothly. This addresses the symptom, but not the underlying problem, which may recur. HTTP caching can be fairly complex, and your local browser cache is simply the last link in the chain. Clearing your browser's cache each time before loading this form will avoid the problem, but not solve it, and it shouldn't be necessary. Deleting your browser cache forces a refresh from the server, or proxy server, but the underlying problem is that your browser _thinks_ that it has the most recent version of the form page in its cache, so it displays it. Mailman's CGI mechanism that issues the form page should always inform the user agent, or proxy server, that the page is new, so that any agent in the chain, proxy server or browser, will discard a cached version and reload it. So what's broken here is the exchange of this information. I suppose this _could_ be a browser problem, but IMHO it's more likely to be a problem further back toward the server, or on the server itself. Every mass subscription page form has a token, labeled "csrf_token", the value of which is a string of letters and numbers, and is different each time the page is generated by the CGI script. This token is sent back to Mailman when you submit the form. This token is interpreted by Mailman, which uses it to determine how long ago the page was generated, and to refuse it if the page is older than FORM_LIFETIME, set in Defaults.py or mm_cfg.py. So because this token changes with every service of this form, the page is always "new" and every element of the connection between the CGI script and your browser should be told that this is the case. A couple of questions might help to understand this: * Are you using a HTTP proxy server? This information would have been intentionally set in your browser's configuration. If so, do you know anything about this proxy server? * What kind and version of browser are you using? * On what kind of system is Mailman running and what kind (Apache, MSIIS, etc.) and version is the web server? > Regards, > > Amit Bhatt > - Original Message - > From: "Lindsay Haisley" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 10:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] error message while adding members > > > > On Sat, 2012-11-03 at 07:52 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: > >> What the message is telling you is that the mass subscribe form you are > >> submitting was retrieved from the host longer than FORM_LIFETIME > >> before it was submitted. If this is not the case, there is some issue > >> in your web server. Perhaps the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/ioA9> > >> is applicable. > > > > Could this be caused by a web proxy that's improperly caching the form > > page and serving it to the client in spite of the fact that csrf_token > > has changed? Or improperly indicating to the client that the page > > hasn't changed so that the client displays from its its own cache > > instead of requesting it again from the server? > > > > Amit, I think a good test here would be to clear your browser's cache, > > reload the subscription form, and see if you get the same error. The > > experts may have a better suggestion, but this is what I'd try. > > > > -- > > Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, who needs > > FMP Computer Services |Windows or Gates" > > 512-259-1190 | > > http://www.fmp.com| > > > > -- > > Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users > > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > > Searchable Archives: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ > > Unsubscribe: > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/misterbhatt%40gmail.com > > -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what is a virtual domain?
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 19:38 -0800, Thufir wrote:
> How does a virtual domain differ from a domain?
To add to what Mark said, technically a "virtual domain" is a domain
name that resolves in the domain name system to the same IP address as
the primary ("real") domain name for your host. A server host can have
many domain names, all pointing to the same IP address, and this is
common for web and mail servers these days.
If the protocols supporting the service to the host support it, the
particular service agent (mail server, web server, whatever) can
determine the name by which it was addressed and do something
intelligent with it. This ability is built into the HTTP1.1 standard,
and also into the SMTP standard. A list server sits behind a mail
server, so technically it _could_ do something with the virtual domain
name. It all depends on the way the service agent handles this
information.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what is a virtual domain?
On Sun, 2012-11-18 at 22:41 -0800, Thufir wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:56:50 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 19:38 -0800, Thufir wrote:
> >> How does a virtual domain differ from a domain?
> >
> > To add to what Mark said, technically a "virtual domain" is a domain
> > name that resolves in the domain name system to the same IP address as
> > the primary ("real") domain name for your host. A server host can have
> > many domain names, all pointing to the same IP address, and this is
> > common for web and mail servers these days.
>
> It's not totally clear. I suppose it's a somewhat unusual situation
> because I'm only using my computer and not an intranet or anything along
> those lines. This configuration is down to postfix?
It's not unusual at all. From the point of view of DNS, there's no
difference between a virtual domain and a real one. They're just
different names which resolve to the same IP address. My server has
dozens of them.
> I don't think I'm using a virtual domain but only a local domain. (And
> only a local domain, nothing should go out to the internet.)
>
> I'm going with using my vanity domain:
If you're using a name which is resolved by a local name server, or from
a hosts file, you can use any names you want, and of course they don't
have to be registered. They don't even have to comply with standard
naming conventions, although using names such as "my.mailserver.local"
may confuse some software. I'm not sure what's meant by the term
"vanity domain" but I'm sure it'll do just fine, as long as it resolves
to a proper local IP address and if necessary there's a MX (mail
exchange) record associated with it.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what is a virtual domain?
On Tue, 2012-11-20 at 00:53 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > It's not unusual at all. From the point of view of DNS, there's no > > difference between a virtual domain and a real one. > > Actually, that's not true. I re-read Thufir's question and realized that I misunderstood it. Yes, what he's trying to do is decidedly unusual. > A virtual domain also is not 100% reliable for SSL/TLS > services because basic TLS does its certificate exchange at a level > "below" the DNS, so deciding which virtual domain's certificate to > present is problematic (there is an extension to the protocol which > fixes this, but it's not 100% implemented, in particular IE on XP > still can't do it according to Wikipedia, which will kill you in Japan > where about 1/3 of business systems are still XP-based). Being a natural-born cheapskate, and running a _very_ small business, I don't even have a wildcard SSL cert signing for FMP's SSL web presence. Certificates for email SSL/TLS are self-signed by scripts which came with the mail server (Courier-MTA). Customers who want SSL pages get a URL under secure.fmp.com with a directory/symlink to their home directory, and a PHP snippet in the page to deflect non-SSL accesses to the secure URL. > This isn't particularly relevant to people who are just plain users of > the system, and I imagine to you it's all second-nature now, but the > OP sounds like he's a bit into do-it-yourself so he should be aware of > the limitations on doing tricky stuff based on a virtual domain. I've always been a bit non-conformist in my system administration practices, which hasn't always made things easy, but I've learned a lot. I've never tried anything such as it seems that Thufir is working with, though. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Fighting against human creativity is like FMP Computer Services | trying to eradicate dandelions" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Pamela Jones -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] A quick couple of questions regarding "From", "Sender" and Gmail
I'm trying to reply to a comment from a Mailman list subscriber on a list I manage, and have a couple of questions which someone might be able to answer quickly, or post me a link, much faster than I can research the matter. At what header fields an an email (From, Sender, Reply-to) does Mailman 2.1.15 look when determining if an email is from a list subscriber and what's the algorithm it uses, if other than a simple OR of the addresses? What are the known issues with Gmail and Mailman, especially those which might result in an email being silently dropped on the floor? A reference to an existing thread or article would be helpful. -- Lindsay Haisley | "We are all broken toasters, but we still FMP Computer Services |manage to make toast" 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com|- Cheryl Dehut -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] A quick couple of questions regarding "From", "Sender" and Gmail
Never mind, I found everything I needed. On Mon, 2012-12-10 at 15:41 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote: > I'm trying to reply to a comment from a Mailman list subscriber on a > list I manage, and have a couple of questions which someone might be > able to answer quickly, or post me a link, much faster than I can > research the matter. > > At what header fields an an email (From, Sender, Reply-to) does Mailman > 2.1.15 look when determining if an email is from a list subscriber and > what's the algorithm it uses, if other than a simple OR of the > addresses? > > What are the known issues with Gmail and Mailman, especially those which > might result in an email being silently dropped on the floor? A > reference to an existing thread or article would be helpful. > -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] ISP policies, specifically AOL
I've had some experience dealing with AOL's issues. Their policies and techniques are shared by earthlink and probably a couple of other mail hosting providers. This has been going on for some years, and AOL had been fairly consistent about it. AOL's mail UI contains a "Report Spam" button, and accumulates statistics on the sending IPs of email to which their users object, and if an IP address accumulates too many complaints, it gets blocked. These URLs will be helpful to you: http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.FeedbackLoop.php http://postmaster.aol.com/Postmaster.Guidelines.php If you're subscribed to AOL's FBL abuse reports you'll get a notice whenever an AOL (or other IPP host using this same system) subscriber presses the "Report Spam" button, and AOL considers it your responsibility to see that this address is deleted from your mailing list in the future. Ironically, AOL does its best to redact any information from the problem emails (returned with FBL abuse reports) which would enable you to easily identify the complaining AOL subscriber, although if you manage to pull this information from a VERP address in the message headers, AOL has no problem with this. What I've been doing here is directing AOL's FBL abuse reports through a custom python script which extracts the list name and the subscriber address, unsubscribes the address from the list and notifies the list owner (withlist is your friend!). To this end, I've also hacked Mailman to insert a Resent-message-id header into outgoing posts containing the subscriber address, AES-encrypted. According to a discussion on this list several months ago, AOL has no problem with this, as long as the subscriber address isn't in plain text in the returned list post in the FBL abuse report. In the meantime, you'll need to contact the AOL postmaster (postmas...@aol.com) and get the blocks removed, and sign up for FBL abuse reports. AOL also has a "Certified Email" service to which you can subscribe, once you've cleared the blocks against your server. I'm not sure if this is a commercial service, but if you sign up for it, it does provide you with some insurance against blocks. See the pages I cite above. On Sun, 2013-02-10 at 16:53 -0500, Max Pyziur wrote: > We've been using mailman for almost ten years (thank you). At our peak we > have run about ten email lists: some discussion-oriented w/ small > membership, and very low frequency; others that have had higher frequency > and membership. In addition, two of them have been used to distribute > monthly newsletters/announcements to a large membership (5,000 to 10,000 > subscribers). > > Recently (in the last six months to a year), some ISPs have begun blocking > these high volume/low-frequency distributions, in particular AOL. While > AOL emails make up about 10% of the constituency of these lists, for us > and our lists it is important that distributions reach these subscribers. > > It seems that AOL, among others, has insisted on some sort of > pre-authentication procedures, so that large distributions from > servers > such as ours are effectively whitelisted. > > Have other mailman admins encountered these issues? > > Is this a foreshadowing of things to come? > > Much thanks. > > Max Pyziur > -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Character Encoding?
On Mon, 2013-03-04 at 12:47 +, Graham Bentley wrote: > Just occasionally I am getting ? instead of ' in mailman > digests. Actually it could be the opposite of ` - but I > am not sure (cant seem to find that char?) > > Any adice / suggestions greatfully rcvd! > There are (at least) a couple of different apostrophes which may or may not be visbily rendered by a mail program, depending on the encoding. I believe UTF8 should pick up all of them, although I'm not sure. MUAs often render characters which they can't grok as "?", so my guess is that this is primarily a MUA problem, not a Mailman problem. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Never expect the people who caused a problem FMP Computer Services | to solve it." - Albert Einstein 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Mailman security question
Is there any support in any version of Mailman for total end to end message security? This would involve being able to send, say, a GPG (or PGP) encrypted post to a list, using the list's public key, having the list decrypt it, and then repost it to all subscribers, encrypted for each using their respective public keys. Granted that such a facility would be a system resources suck of an order of magnitude greater than a simple, unencrypted list, however I can see that it might well be useful in some cases. It would also, in the current political climate, doubtless be deemed to be something close to a national security threat, and even discussing the idea might attract DHS attention. I do recall that some years ago that Phil Zimmerman, who invented PGP, was the subject of a criminal investigation since the PGP algorithm was deemed by the US government to be "weapon" subject to export controls. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Behold! Our way lies through a FMP Computer Services |dark wood whence in which 512-259-1190 | weirdness may wallow!” http://www.fmp.com| --Beauregard -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman security question
On Tue, 2013-05-07 at 10:40 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Lindsay Haisley writes: > > > Is there any support in any version of Mailman for total end to end > > message security? > > Not in a distributed version, although as mentioned in another post > there's a patch. There's a GSoC proposal to implement some such thing > for Mailman 3, with a reasonable UI for handling user pubkey and such, > but I can't say at this point whether that project will be approved > (Google rules). > > Also, "total end to end security" is a fantasy. The attack surface in > the mail system is huge, even if the messages are encrypted in > transport. Without specifying what the "ends" are (workstations? > MTAs? users?) and whether traffic analysis or a court-authorized > "wiretap" at the Mailman site is considered a threat, I can't help you > on whether any given system might be considered "secure" or not. My thought is that "total security" would be MUA to MUA, with the assumption that most MUAs can handle encryption using GnuPGP, Enigmail, or some such. Of course these days nothing is totally secure, since in a pinch, and given a little time, a supercomputer can break even a 4096 bit, or larger key. This is, at this point, curiosity on my part rather than a need for this capability. > > It would also, in the current political climate, doubtless be deemed to > > be something close to a national security threat, > > AFAIK PGP-style encryption is no longer considered munitions. As long > as the crypto stuff is done by third-party modules, Mailman has no > problem, I think. (We can distribute a ROT13 implementation without > bothering even a member of the Bush family, let alone sophisticated > Dems like Al Gore, The Father of the Internet as We Know It :-) I suppose ROT13 would fall under just about everyone's radar ;) I mean, who would suspect -- Lindsay Haisley | "The difference between a duck is because FMP Computer Services |one leg is both the same" 512-259-1190 | - Anonymous http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Tangential encryption issue, FWIW
Pursuant to a conversation I had on this list last year, I did develop a patch and application for AES encryption of the address of the posting subscriber and the list name and poking the result into the Resent-Message-ID. This is a patch against MM 2.1.15, not against the v3 development tree. I know I did suggest that I intended to put together some suggested code which would implement this in v3, but as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I have a lot on my plate. If anyone would like a copy of my work, it's pretty simple, and if someone wants to pick up the ball and put it into MM3 they have my blessing. Let me know. -- Lindsay Haisley | "We have met the enemy and he is us." FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | -- Pogo http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Question about mailman 3
On Thu, 2013-07-11 at 20:16 +0430, Javad Hoseini-Nopendar wrote: > I have a question about later versions of mailman. Do they have the feature > to export list of members to Excel or TXT file? If you have console access to the account, you can use the list_members command: list_members listname [lists member emails] list_members -f listname[lists emails w. names as RFC-compliant address] > You can also send a "who" command in the subject line to listname-requ...@example.com with a password. This isn't well documented, but you'll find what documentation there is at http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node10.html and http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node41.html#a:commands -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On Mon, 2013-11-04 at 11:43 -0600, c cc wrote: > Hi, > > I just moved our mailman to a new server, but I can't start mailman--I keep > getting the following message: > > Starting mailman: Site list is missing: mailman > > I do have a list named mailman moved over, and have moved over about 30 > lists. > > Does anyone have any idea? Thanks! Check VAR_PREFIX in your Defaults.py file and see if it corresponds to the same setting on the system from which your lists were moved. Also check all your log files for clues, especially the Mailman error log. Log files will frequently contain helpful information above and beyond what's reported to stdout or stderr. -- Lindsay Haisley | "Real programmers use butterflies" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On Tue, 2013-11-05 at 13:14 -0600, c cc wrote: > Mark, > > It seems like /etc/init.d/mailman and /etc/rc.d/mailman both are runing > /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl, as you can you below: > > MAILMANHOME=/usr/lib/mailman > MAILMANCTL=$MAILMANHOME/bin/mailmanctl > > Here how I moved my lists over to the new server: FWIW, here are the two scripts I use to move Mailman accounts, with their archives, from one computer to another. I've never had a single problem when using them and have moved a lot of lists with them. The first script creates an gzip archive of the list in /tmp, plus a marker file indicating whether or not the list's posting archive is public or private. It's called /usr/local/sbin/tar_list.sh and gets run by root to tar up the list's files. #!/bin/sh if [ "$1" = "" ]; then echo 'Usage: tar_list.sh ' exit fi if [ ! -e /var/lib/mailman/lists/$1 ]; then echo "$1: No such list!" exit fi mkdir /tmp/$1 cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/ echo Creating $1_list.tar.gz tar -czvf $1_list.tar.gz $1 mv $1_list.tar.gz /tmp/$1 cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ echo Creating $1_archive.tar.gz tar -czvf $1_archive.tar.gz $1 mv $1_archive.tar.gz /tmp/$1 echo Creating $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz tar -czvf $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz $1.mbox mv $1_archive_mbox.tar.gz /tmp/$1 if [ -L /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$1 ]; then touch /tmp/$1/$1_archive_is_public fi The second script lives in ~mailman/bin on the receiving system and is called untar_list.sh. It gets run by the mailman user, which must have a login shell, even if only temporarily. If you don't have the root password on the remote system, or if ssh is forbidden for root, then change the account name to that of an unprivileged user on line 8 and 9. #!/bin/sh if [ "$2" = "" ]; then echo 'Usage: untar_list.sh ' exit fi cd ~/tmp/ echo "Give root password on remote system ..." scp root@$1:/tmp/$2/* . cd /var/lib/mailman/lists/ echo "" echo "Creating list $2 ..." tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_list.tar.gz cd /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/ echo "" echo "Creating archive for $2 ..." tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive.tar.gz echo "Creating archive mbox for $1 ..." tar -xzvpf ~/tmp/$2_archive_mbox.tar.gz if [ -e ~/tmp/$2_archive_is_public ]; then ln -s /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/$2 /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/$2 fi echo"" echo "If no errors, delete files in ~/tmp and delete /tmp/$2 directory on remote system" -- Lindsay Haisley | "We have met the enemy and he is us." FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | -- Pogo http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] unable to start Mailman
On Wed, 2013-11-20 at 14:01 +0100, Roel Wagenaar wrote: > And maybe you could stop TOP-posting? > In my humble opinion, any post that's less that a visual page in length is more conveniently read if it's top-posted, especially if it is in reference to a much longer quoted post. I know it's considered bad list netiquette, but from a practical point of view, I consider it the more convenient format. Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the list moderator to decide these things. With humility and deep respect for everyone -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Kernel update breaks Mailman!!
I'm running Mailman 2.1.15 on a Ubuntu server, feeding into Courier MTA, running Python 2.7.3. I track security updates and install them promptly when they're issued by Ubuntu. Yesterday I updated the Linux kernel from 3.2.0-58-generic (x86_64) to 3.2.0-59-generic and Mailman quit working. List posts made it through to the archives, and were apparently queued within Mailman, but wouldn't go out. The mail server was working OK for non-list email. Today I backed out the kernel update and posts to lists sent yesterday and today are going out without problems. I can find nothing in the Mailman logs, or in the mail server logs, indicating a problem. This is the first time I've ever had a problem with a server kernel update breaking something related to mail. Has anyone else seen this problem? Does anyone have any insight into how to address it? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Kernel update breaks Mailman!!
I'm running Mailman 2.1.15 on a Ubuntu server, feeding into Courier MTA, running Python 2.7.3. I track security updates and install them promptly when they're issued by Ubuntu. Yesterday I updated the Linux kernel from 3.2.0-58-generic (x86_64) to 3.2.0-59-generic and Mailman quit working. List posts made it through to the archives, and were apparently queued within Mailman, but wouldn't go out. The mail server was working OK for non-list email. Today I backed out the kernel update and posts to lists sent yesterday and today are going out without problems. I can find nothing in the Mailman logs, or in the mail server logs, indicating a problem. This is the first time I've ever had a problem with a server kernel update breaking something related to mail. Has anyone else seen this problem? Does anyone have any insight into how to address it? -- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
