Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Stefano Bagnara]

On 10 January 2018 at 08:16, Sotiris Tsimbonis  wrote:
> [...] They did
> not report it as spam yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an
> email client, they only use the web interface provided by hotmail.

I often heard story like this... the fact is that this "i never marked
it as spam" is always from a non-techie person..
- Sometimes they lie, because they didn't know you spy on their
"junking habits", so they simply deny when you ask why they did
something they didn't know you could "monitor".
- Sometimes they don't even know what is the spam button (some of them
think it is like trash, some of them don't know at all).
- Sometimes they happen to click on stuff without really recognizing they did.

We run a SaaS and very often our users say they never did something
until we dig in the logs and have evidence they really did that, so my
first think is always "everybody lies" (sometimes they are not really
aware they are lying, they simply never read/tried to understood and
thought that "permanently delete" means "hide this for a while").

It is possible there is a bug in the platform, but I still have to get
similar reports from a trusted source or see the behaviour with my
eyes. So, I think you should take this at least as an option (and use
Occam's razor).

> So it's not bulk moving emails to junk using imap. Opening the email
> yesterday triggered the fbl process somehow.
>
> I'm still not quite certain of how it works, but Mihai Costea also
> posted that 1% of their fbl reports are back from 2016 ...

I don't see anything weird from that. People can mark as spam any
email, even if the email has been received a lot of time ago.
He told that he searched the email, maybe they also marked it as spam:
this kind of action could have the legitimate result to send an FBL
for an old message.

It sound like an expected distribution:
0.1% per month (1% in 10 months) 2 years ago
0.4% per month (4% in 10 months) 1 year ago
2.5% per month (5% in 2 months) 3 months ago
90% per month (90% in 1 the last month).

If you do open-tracking you can see similar distributions with
messages being opened even after many years. If they are opened after
years there's nothing weird to see they are sometimes also marked as
spam after years.

Stefano

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Sotiris Tsimbonis]

On 9/1/18 21:12, Al Iverson wrote:
> Likely the user reported it as spam in the last 24 hours. No ISP is
> knowingly sitting on complaints for almost a year.
> 
> You'll probably never know for sure unless you were to ask that user
> (and assuming that you will trust their answer).

We actually contacted the user and asked. Their story goes like this:

Yesterday they were looking for an email from us, which was supposed to
arrive yesterday (it was a contract renewal). It was not on their inbox,
so they used search to find all emails from us and last year's email
came up. So they clicked on last year's email and opened it. They did
not report it as spam yesterday, they only viewed it. They don't use an
email client, they only use the web interface provided by hotmail.

So it's not bulk moving emails to junk using imap. Opening the email
yesterday triggered the fbl process somehow.

I'm still not quite certain of how it works, but Mihai Costea also
posted that 1% of their fbl reports are back from 2016 ...

Sotiris.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Charles McKean]

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Bill Cole
 wrote:
> On 9 Jan 2018, at 14:53, Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>
>> Also, another user here reported that recently Microsoft introduced
>> automations so that an user moving messages from inbox to spam via
>> IMAP (also in bulk) automatically create abuse reports/FBL.
>
> That's horrifying. It's oblivious bulk misreporting by conscious design.

And yours is hyperbole, overstating an opinion grossly in an attempt
to draw a response.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Bill Cole]

On 9 Jan 2018, at 14:53, Stefano Bagnara wrote:

> Also, another user here reported that recently Microsoft introduced
> automations so that an user moving messages from inbox to spam via
> IMAP (also in bulk) automatically create abuse reports/FBL.

That's horrifying. It's oblivious bulk misreporting by conscious design.

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Michael Wise via mailop]

That last bit should only be for Office365 accounts ... I think.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Got the Junk Mail Reporting 
Tool ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Bagnara
Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 11:54 AM
To: mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?



On 9 January 2018 at 19:59, Sotiris Tsimbonis 
> wrote:

> I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop

> with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.

> [...]

> Is it because the hotmail user marked it as spam today?



Most likely.

Sometimes an use mark as spam something received today and the UI let

him mark as spam all of the previous email from the same sender, so

you get FBL for dozens email to the same recipient.



Also, another user here reported that recently Microsoft introduced

automations so that an user moving messages from inbox to spam via

IMAP (also in bulk) automatically create abuse reports/FBL.



Stefano



--

Stefano Bagnara

Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF

VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs



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Re: [mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Al Iverson]

Likely the user reported it as spam in the last 24 hours. No ISP is
knowingly sitting on complaints for almost a year.

You'll probably never know for sure unless you were to ask that user
(and assuming that you will trust their answer).

Cheers,
Al Iverson

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Sotiris Tsimbonis  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop
> with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.
>
> Can someone explain why I've received it so late, almost a year after it
> was sent?
>
> Is it because the hotmail user marked it as spam today?
> Did the hotmail user mark it as spam earlier but was processed by
> hotmail today?
> Did the user do nothing, but hotmail's own processing classified it as
> spam almost a year after it was received?
> Something else?
>
> Kind regards,
> Sotiris.
>
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-- 
al iverson // wombatmail // miami
http://www.aliverson.com
http://www.spamresource.com

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[mailop] Hotmail/Outlook feedback loop processing delay?

[Sotiris Tsimbonis]

Hi all,

I received today (9 Jan 2018) a message from outlook's feedback loop
with a message that was originally sent to a hotmail address on 30 Jan 2017.

Can someone explain why I've received it so late, almost a year after it
was sent?

Is it because the hotmail user marked it as spam today?
Did the hotmail user mark it as spam earlier but was processed by
hotmail today?
Did the user do nothing, but hotmail's own processing classified it as
spam almost a year after it was received?
Something else?

Kind regards,
Sotiris.

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Re: [mailop] Only Earthlink failing DKIM, any contacts here?

[Vladimir Dubrovin via mailop]

It's weird to block messages on DKIM verification, I see no reason to do
so, but usually there is a reason why DKIM signature breaks. Most common
issue is malformed message is being normalized prior to DKIM check. You
should verify in first place:
1. There is no 8-bit characters in headers
2. There is no oversized lines (>998 octets) in body
3. Message-ID: and Date: headers are generated
4. From: header matches the standard
5. CRLF line breaks are used (or relaxed canonization is used for DKIM)
6. Tracing headers (like Return-Path: or Received:) are not signed


08.01.2018 18:58, Albert Liu пишет:
> Hi There,
>
> Apologies -- forgot to edit the SL in my initial message.
>
> Does anyone have a contact at Earthlink.net? 
>
> We started seeing DKIM fail for our clients only at Earthlink.net
> about 2 months ago (no issues with any other major ISPs) and now some
> mail is being hard blocked with "551 ERROR: DKIM signature
> verification failed (signature verification failed)".
>
> Thank you!
> Albert
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:52 AM,  > wrote:
>
> Send mailop mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Anyone with a pulse at combell.com ?
> (Philip Paeps)
>    2. Re: Anyone with a pulse at combell.com ?
> (Ken O'Driscoll)
>    3. Re: Anyone with a pulse at combell.com ?
> (Charles McKean)
>    4. Re: Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook
>       (John Possidente)
>    5. Re: mailop Digest, Vol 123, Issue 8 (Albert Liu)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:15:25 +0100
> From: Philip Paeps >
> To: mailop@mailop.org 
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Anyone with a pulse at combell.com
> ?
> Message-ID: <20180108121524.gp89...@rincewind.trouble.is
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> On 2018-01-08 09:44:10 (+0100), David Hofstee wrote:
> >On 6 January 2018 at 15:32, Philip Paeps  > wrote:
> >>I'm getting repeated spamtrap hits from customers of combell.com
> .
> >>Forwarding messages (even just headers) to abuse@ gets bounces:
> >>
> >>  ab...@combell.com 
> >>    host 217.21.178.56  [217.21.178.56
> ]
> >>    SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
> >>    550 5.7.1 Message rejected as spam by Content Filtering.
> >>
> >>Asking abuse@ how they'd like to be told about their customers'
> >>network abuse gets bounced with the same error.  Great!
> >>
> >>Does anyone know any humans there?
> >>
> >> They're unfortunately too large to block outright.
> >
> >Did you try it with a non-"trouble.is " domain?
>
> Yes.  I sent these from postmaster@ the several domains where the
> spamtraps are hosted and from philip@ in the domains I've got
> mailboxes
> in.  Always the same error: "Message rejected as spam by Content
> Filtering".
>
> >E.g. an @gmail.com  account?
>
> I don't have one of those.
>
> It doesn't look like the return address matters though.
>
> Aside: it seems more than a bit silly to run a content filter on
> abuse@.
> If their filter feeds into reputation monitoring systems, I've
> probably
> damaged my networks' reputations by being a good internet citizen and
> reporting abuse of their network!
>
> Philip
>
> --
> Philip Paeps
> Senior Reality Engineer
> Ministry of Information
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:18:23 +
> From: Ken O'Driscoll  >
> To: mailop@mailop.org 
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Anyone with a pulse at combell.com
> ?
> Message-ID: