Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Hi, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote on 02.06.21 at 23:39: Allowing such queries would be giving quite a bit of information to potential bad guys. honestly don't know what is better. The majority of DNBLs can be queried publicly, and I could imagine for those who really aim hard, simply spamming some known accounts on the destination MX helps to find out if they're blocked or not. But on that I don't have enough insight to make an educated guess. Michael Wise via mailop wrote on 03.06.21 at 01:16: But I was primarily suggesting a test against the infra to see if the mail was bounced or accepted. If accepted, it WOULD be delivered either to the INBOX or Junk. And if bounced, that should also highlight why. With a proper test account it's quick to find out if you're blocked or not, indeed. The issue in my case was the radio silence after the initial ticket. I would assume the previous IP owner really did bad, or some spammy neighbours massively rate down the netblock, so probably people were not eager to follow-up - but not the nicest experience. But, not your fault personally. ;-) And it's finally fixed in the meantime. Florian ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Wed, 2021-06-02 at 04:15 +, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > That would shut down email as a viable communications mechanism > almost immediately. Substitute subnets for countries. Is that not what your employer is doing, blocking entire subnets? The only difference is that the rules are made by your employer, not by government. On a more practical matter, maybe you can help me fix Hotmail deliverability? for a few months I have been receiving the reply snipped below. I have been using that IP address as a very low volume SMTP sender for about a decade. The attempt was to message a Hotmail address that I have been corresponding with for even longer. I have asked my ISP (Digital Ocean) to no avail. I have not been able to make sense of the information at the URL provided by Microsoft, specifically map it against the diagnostic code in the snippet. Thanks in advance for your insights. --- START SNIPPET --- host hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com[104.47.14.33] said: 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX] weren't sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors. [VI1EUR04FT003.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com] (in reply to MAIL FROM command) > > Aloha, > Michael. > > -Original Message- > From: mailop On Behalf Of yuv via mailop > Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:10 PM > To: mailop@mailop.org > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to > accept mail with misleading temp error message > > On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 23:55 -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > > > All what recipients AND mailers want is a reliable email service, > > > > > You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every > > message. > > Agree. What I do want (but probably not even Santa can give me) is > to > make ISPs liable for every bit that emanates from their network the > same way a land owner is liable for the pollution emanating from > their > land, and to block out completely countries that do not enforce such > stringent standard. > > > > Spammers really do ruin everything. > > Slackers do too, and our governments have been giving too much slack > to > the industry who lobbied so successfully for a hands-off approach to > encourage innovation. That industry is no longer in its infancy and > self-regulation has failed. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Dnia 2.06.2021 o godz. 08:57:18 Michael Rathbun via mailop pisze: > > In the past six days of logs on the tiny server I run (friends, family, > personal business) 97.3% of all connection attempts were hostile in some form > (spam, dictionary attacks, malefactions NOI). 88% of all SMTP sessions were > spam delivery attempts. I do have about a 2% false positive rate, still, even > though the filtering system has been personally crafted over the past 20 > years. False positives are a normal thing. Tuning the spam filtering when an FP occurs is a normal thing. However, this tuning has to be done proactively. NOT doing the above and solely relying on the users to complain that they didn't get mail is NOT a normal thing however. At least they should react to complains from the senders as well as to complaints from their users. Especially when mail is delivered to Spam/Junk folder, as it is well known that the users don't look there. They should create some reliable procedure for this. Once I was blocked at mail.ru, and I was amazed how smooth their process for clearing a FP was. So it is definitely possible. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Depends on the invoice. I've seen examples that strain credibility past the breaking point. You're always encouraged to submit legit traffic as an FP. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail<http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866> ? -Original Message- From: mailop On Behalf Of Stefano Bagnara via mailop Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 2:13 PM To: mailop Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 at 21:39, John Levine via mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote: > No, it's to deliver the mail that the users want. One point that bulk > mailers often miss is that, while the recipients at large providers do > not object to getting the bulk mail, they also do not really want it. I received Microsoft Office 365 invoices in the Junk folder of my untrained/verbatim Office 365 inbox, because of SmartScreen. No one likes invoices, i guess... -- Stefano Bagnara Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.mailop.org%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cd362a774d8f94791db0c08d9262ae92f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637582788020904345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=X2dGcbIIoaHHlcXRNX0fgCHa58GRcLLcf5j4wzml6pM%3Dreserved=0 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Office365 Trial Accounts are easily created. But I was primarily suggesting a test against the infra to see if the mail was bounced or accepted. If accepted, it WOULD be delivered either to the INBOX or Junk. And if bounced, that should also highlight why. Our internal DNSBLs are not queriable via DNS. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail<http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866> ? -Original Message- From: mailop On Behalf Of Florian Effenberger via mailop Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 1:36 PM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message Hi Michael, Am 2021-06-02 21:09, schrieb Michael Wise via mailop: > Sending from that IP is ... how one usually tests that it's working. what IMHO would be much better to check newly assigned IPs is, if there's a way to query via DNS, or a web form. That way the issue can be solved and clarified in advance, and not only when problems occur. Not everyone has an account at hand to test it upfront. Florian ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.mailop.org%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cd2b743d92a604b83c58b08d926066b02%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637582631281183084%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=0sNDtESk94BWWxZArXhdbpVcO3cQY6sDPmf5JLe%2BfbM%3Dreserved=0 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On 6/2/21 13:35, Florian Effenberger via mailop wrote: Hi Michael, Am 2021-06-02 21:09, schrieb Michael Wise via mailop: Sending from that IP is ... how one usually tests that it's working. what IMHO would be much better to check newly assigned IPs is, if there's a way to query via DNS, or a web form. That way the issue can be solved and clarified in advance, and not only when problems occur. Not everyone has an account at hand to test it upfront. Allowing such queries would be giving quite a bit of information to potential bad guys. If your goal is to test email delivery from a given origin IP address, it seems to me that the most logical test would indeed be to send email from that IP. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 22:35:56 +0200, Florian Effenberger via mailop wrote: >what IMHO would be much better to check newly assigned IPs is, if >there's a way to query via DNS, or a web form. That way the issue can be >solved and clarified in advance, and not only when problems occur. Not >everyone has an account at hand to test it upfront. That's quite appealing to me. It would be cool to have a complete project plan for this, with all the budgetary and schedule data, to submit to TPTB to get the ball rolling. The ball is extremely unlikely to roll, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Any year now. mdr -- Ad finem pugnabo. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Hi Michael, Am 2021-06-02 21:09, schrieb Michael Wise via mailop: Sending from that IP is ... how one usually tests that it's working. what IMHO would be much better to check newly assigned IPs is, if there's a way to query via DNS, or a web form. That way the issue can be solved and clarified in advance, and not only when problems occur. Not everyone has an account at hand to test it upfront. Florian ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
Sending from that IP is ... how one usually tests that it's working. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail<http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866> ? -Original Message- From: mailop On Behalf Of Florian Effenberger via mailop Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2021 2:05 AM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message Hello, I'm rather new to this list, so I hope it's okay to jump in directly in this discussion and share some thoughts. :-) I just recently faced a very similar problem with one of the new IPs I got assigned. Likely, the IP was in use by someone else previously or there are spammy neighbours (not surprising when it's a big provider with some customer turnaround). I got all deblocking done in the various blocklists, the status was clean everywhere, including SNDS, but still, Microsoft 365 mailboxes (*.protection.outlook.com) blocked it. It seems there are various independent blocklists - one set is covering consumer Outlook/Live/Hotmail, the other set is covering Microsoft 365. SNDS seems to only query the former one, and the Outlook.com web form only unblocks on these domains, so neither of that helps for Microsoft 365 mailboxes. For Microsoft 365, there seem to be various levels of blocking. Sometimes, you can unblock yourself at sender.office.com, but I hit the infamous "Write to delist@" message. I managed to create a ticket there, they asked for some details, but then radio silence, all follow-up mails ignored, for over a month now. Various ways of contacting them went without any outcome, and I sense that on their end there is also some confusion as to the existing blocklists - I got repeatedly told the IP is not listed (which is what sender.office.com told me too), or to use the Outlook.com form, that obviously didn't help for my problem at hand. In the end, via way one of the communication channels I tried, I somehow managed to get a supporter who was really engaged and managed to helped me out, but I must admit that the whole process was not straightforward and took me a month in the end. At least when people provide full contact data/imprint and proof that the IP was freshly assigned, some feedback would be good to not be left in the dark. Problematic is also that there is no actual way to test if your new IP is blocked before using it, apart from sending to an actual e-mail address hosted there. Hope to help, Florian ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.mailop.org%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Caaa84036aa5246e9315d08d925a6c75f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637582220516827563%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=AR%2Fv6AaDxruCfBaBRJ4zhXtyxxeFEZ4oOP5eAVyaU7E%3Dreserved=0 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 04:15:30 +, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: >That would shut down email as a viable communications mechanism almost >immediately. In the past six days of logs on the tiny server I run (friends, family, personal business) 97.3% of all connection attempts were hostile in some form (spam, dictionary attacks, malefactions NOI). 88% of all SMTP sessions were spam delivery attempts. I do have about a 2% false positive rate, still, even though the filtering system has been personally crafted over the past 20 years. mdr ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
That would shut down email as a viable communications mechanism almost immediately. Aloha, Michael. -Original Message- From: mailop On Behalf Of yuv via mailop Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:10 PM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 23:55 -0400, John Levine via mailop wrote: > > All what recipients AND mailers want is a reliable email service, > > > You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every > message. Agree. What I do want (but probably not even Santa can give me) is to make ISPs liable for every bit that emanates from their network the same way a land owner is liable for the pollution emanating from their land, and to block out completely countries that do not enforce such stringent standard. > Spammers really do ruin everything. Slackers do too, and our governments have been giving too much slack to the industry who lobbied so successfully for a hands-off approach to encourage innovation. That industry is no longer in its infancy and self-regulation has failed. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer https :// moneylaw.ca Tel: 519.488.1783 (does not receive MMS) Tel: 1.844.234.5389 Fax: 1.888.900.5709 2201-323 Colborne Street London, ON N6B 3N8 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.mailop.org%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C1a2110dca19e4385640808d9257cb183%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637582039768468313%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=VRk%2F%2F%2BJVPij%2B6OzZA5ayJtkQh1FtI%2BCEPu6SzvHtBpE%3Dreserved=0 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message
That should not be happening currently in Consumer mail (Outlook, Hotmail, et al). Aloha, Michael. -Original Message- From: mailop On Behalf Of Jay Hennigan via mailop Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2021 9:04 PM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] protection.outlook.com refusing to accept mail with misleading temp error message On 6/1/21 20:55, John Levine via mailop wrote: > You really REALLY do not want your mail provider to deliver every message. > At large mail systems, typically 90% or more of the incoming mail is spam. > Without aggressive filtering, e-mail would be unusable. Agreed 100%. Another thing that you really REALLY do not want is for your mail provider to silently discard messages. Either block at IP level and don't accept them at all, reject them, deliver them to the inbox, or deliver them to the spam folder. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.mailop.org%2Flistinfo%2Fmailopdata=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cde3ae17f2ada421890ab08d9257bc3e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637582035772300430%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=MKlaR%2B8X6HoZGLCBEPlIvaT0xCTYLI16BwZuSG2EUA0%3Dreserved=0 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
