subject:"Re\: \[mailop\] Tangent\: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany"

Yes, but the §5 only applies to services run for a fee.

§18 applies to all services, including free ones.

 

§18 only requires name + address

§5 requires a lot more information.

 

Från: Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop  
Skickat: den 23 oktober 2022 04:38
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

 

Am 23.10.22 um 02:00 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:

When a service is provided totally for free, no strings attached, no 
requirements, nothing.
Then its not a "service offered for remundiation" and thus, according to that 
§5, its not a telemedia.


§1 TMG has a definition what it thinks is a telemedia:




(1) This Act shall apply to […] (telemedia). This law applies to all providers, 
including public bodies, regardless of whether a fee is charged for use.


I don't think German judges are easily convinced by what you or I think is one 
;)

Anyway, it's more or less guesswork of amateurs now, what what legislation 
actually implies. Shall we just put this tangent thread to it's grave and let 
it rot^Wrest in peace?
-kai

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

I checked the law now and its actually 2 different laws in effect:

 

Telemedia law, requires a basic imprint for all sites that is not only 
accessible for personal usage or family usage (if you give one single person 
access outside, it requires an imprint, even if that person is a friend. Only 
personal and family – which is mother, father, childs is permitted)

This also applies to RECEIVING mail on port 25, this requires a website with a 
imprint.

 

BUT – it ONLY requires name + address.

NOTHING MORE. (There are about responsible persons, but this only applies to 
journalistic media)

 

Then you have telecommunication law, that for business-like services for 
remundiation, must also provide:

 

2: Personal identity number

3: Contact details, including phone number and email address

4: Personal or commercial Tax ID

5: if you have a title that requires a permit, any information about these 
permits.

6: Registry number for the corporate register

 

You do NOT need to provide contact details if you don’t operate a business-like 
service for remundiation according to §5.

Name and residency address is enough.

 

Från: Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop  
Skickat: den 23 oktober 2022 04:09
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

 

We're quite diverging from the topic ...

Am 23.10.22 um 01:30 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:

a htaccess wont discharge you from being a "public service".


Yes, no, maybe. German courts seem to be ok with an .htaccess to keep the 
general public out for you to not need an imprint page (even outside of the 
.htaccessed-off namespace, that is).




As long as you respond from packets from the public, you are a public service, 
even if you have .htaccess password protection.


Says who, in which legal context in which jurisdiction?




For example, Swedish cookie law […]


So a Swedish webmaster (d/f/m) has to put up an imprint on their website as 
well and show a cookie banner before it can be seen? (FTR: This, again, is a 
rhetorical question.)




Note here that cookie law applies to ALL public websites and services that use 
cookies - even if you are offering them without remundiation.


But we're currently on the topic of "Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in 
Germany", and while the inconsistent regulation across the EU member states 
certainly is fascinating, I fail to see the relevance of cookie laws to 
worldwide mail operation?




Do you have the §18 in full?


 <https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV> 
https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV
 <https://www.landesrecht-hamburg.de/bsha/document/jlr-MedienStVtrHArahmen> 
https://www.landesrecht-hamburg.de/bsha/document/jlr-MedienStVtrHArahmen

Somehow it isn't covered by  <https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de> 
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de (run by the Federal Ministry of Justice and 
the Federal Office of Justice), maybe because it's just a »Staatsvertrag« 
between all 16 Federal States (media law is, IIRC like some other areas, state 
law; some events between 1933 and 1945 suggested that, going forward, the 
central government should better be left out of control).

Ciao,
-kai

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany


Am 23.10.22 um 02:00 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:

When a service is provided totally for free, no strings attached, no 
requirements, nothing.
Then its not a "service offered for remundiation" and thus, according to that 
§5, its not a telemedia.


§1 TMG has a definition what it thinks is a telemedia:


(1) This Act shall apply to […] (telemedia). This law applies to all providers, 
including public bodies, regardless of whether a fee is charged for use.


I don't think German judges are easily convinced by what you or I think is one 
;)

Anyway, it's more or less guesswork of amateurs now, what what legislation 
actually implies. Shall we just put this tangent thread to it's grave and let 
it rot^Wrest in peace?
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

>> has to put up an imprint on their website as well and show a cookie banner 
>> before it can be seen

 

No, theres no imprint requirement in Sweden if you do not operate a public 
service for remundiation (for pay).

Then there is certain requirements by the consumer law if you provide paid 
services.

 

Free services does not apply.

 

HOWEVER, cookie banner are required for ALL websites that are public, free or 
not, that during SOME interaction in the future, may use cookies.

This means, if you .htaccess lock your site, and the locked section requires a 
cookie somewhere, you have to provide a cookie notice in the “realm 
identification” setting in .htaccess

(This is the text displayed in the password dialog, when it asks for a password)

 

 

 

The problem with .htaccess, is that you must respond with a password request, 
for the client to show the password dialog.

That means you are responding to packets from the public, with packets 
containing information.

 

Its no different than serving a webpage.

Its just data in the payload.

 

Imagine changing protocol to RDP on 3389.

Whats a password request then? That’s in the payload too.

 

When is a RDP service on port 3389 a public service or not?

 

Or SMTP is a great example:

If a SMTP server receives mail without password, but requires password to send 
– is it a public service that require an imprint then?

 

It becomes hard to define, that’s why EU law defines “public service” as 
anything that responds to packets on internet.

And that’s why EU law have decided a service must be offered for “remundiation” 
to be covered in telecommunications law.

 

You understand the difficulty? Due to the nature of the internet, the protocol 
differs, and thus, theres no clear point when the public have been deem given 
access.

 

 

To make a house example, if a lobby in a corp building is open for anyone that 
visit the corp, is the corp being a public building or not, even if all other 
doors require a access card? Do you need to lock the front door to make the 
corp building a non-public space?

 

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

>>AFAIK, if _you_ get _any_ *benefit* from what you put on your website (via 
>>ads, affiliate links, whatever)

 

Yes correct, everything that increases your "richness" or saves you money, 
counts as remuneration.

Doesn’t matter if its money, if its affiliate links, if its donations, if its 
free service in exchange for other's free service or whatever.

Even running your website on a free webhost that uses ads placed on your 
website to cover the server costs, counts as remuneration.

 

Note that it needs to be business-like AND be offered for remuneration.

Note that things that aren't technically worth money, doesn't count, so if you 
get more friends, more comments on your articles, or personal joy out of 
running a website, it doesn't count.

 

>> German media law

 

What I understand, this is telecommunication law, not media law.

Media law is about who is allowed to broadcast, and telecommunication is about 
who is allowed to operate telecommunications equipment commercially.

 

It might be so that we have 2 laws about imprint in German, one stricter, that 
requires more information, when it’s a business-like service for remuneration, 
and a broadcast law, that applies to everyone else, including some privately 
operated public services too, requiring less of a imprint to protect personal 
information.

 

>>Wifi and responsibility.

 

I know about that, its because one without a telecommunications license are not 
permitted to refuse responsibility.

It’s the same that if you operate a rental car company and have a rental 
license, you can show the contract to get any parking fee's redirected, but if 
you don't have rental license, then you have to swallow the parking fees 
yourself when you loan out the car.

 

>>So different legislation; in Germany, 

 

Yeah. That applies to all commercial offers, even for free. Commercial offers 
means that either a legal person provides it, OR a service for financial gain, 
then it’s a "commercial" service.

That’s different from remuneration, because if you share wifi in your home and 
split the cost, you don't get commercial gain for it, and then you are allowed 
without notification.

 

 

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany


We're quite diverging from the topic ...

Am 23.10.22 um 01:30 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:

a htaccess wont discharge you from being a "public service".


Yes, no, maybe. German courts seem to be ok with an .htaccess to keep the 
general public out for you to not need an imprint page (even outside of the 
.htaccessed-off namespace, that is).


As long as you respond from packets from the public, you are a public service, 
even if you have .htaccess password protection.


Says who, in which legal context in which jurisdiction?


For example, Swedish cookie law […]


So a Swedish webmaster (d/f/m) has to put up an imprint on their website as 
well and show a cookie banner before it can be seen? (FTR: This, again, is a 
rhetorical question.)


Note here that cookie law applies to ALL public websites and services that use 
cookies - even if you are offering them without remundiation.


But we're currently on the topic of "Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in 
Germany", and while the inconsistent regulation across the EU member states 
certainly is fascinating, I fail to see the relevance of cookie laws to worldwide mail 
operation?


Do you have the §18 in full?


https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV
https://www.landesrecht-hamburg.de/bsha/document/jlr-MedienStVtrHArahmen

Somehow it isn't covered by https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de (run by the 
Federal Ministry of Justice and the Federal Office of Justice), maybe because 
it's just a »Staatsvertrag« between all 16 Federal States (media law is, IIRC 
like some other areas, state law; some events between 1933 and 1945 suggested 
that, going forward, the central government should better be left out of 
control).

Ciao,
-kai
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Am 23.10.22 um 01:05 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:

The article you linked to, was very clear (when running it through google
translate) that the imprint requirement only required if it was a PAID service,
requiring some compensation to use.

Seemingly this requirement moved into §18 (1) Medienstaatsvertrag (MStV) and
»geschäftsmäßig« (§5 (1) TMG) _seems_ to be understood in German legalese as something
that is linked to someones "economic activity" (»Bestandteil seiner
wirtschaftlichen Betätigung«, according to [1]) these days. It's some decades since I
started to blog, and at some point in time the understanding was basically: like a car on
public streets needs a registration, anything that is put on the WWW by Germans or from
German soil does, too.

There were some changes in recent years (creation of the »Medienstaatsvertrag«,
replacing the »Rundfunkstaatsvertrag« from 2020 on, now applying to
»Telemedien« as well as TV or radio broadcasts), but AFAICS the basic imprint
requirement hasn't changed. MStV seems to add just another layer of legalese on
top; from my point of view, too many lawyers in the parliaments, striving for
their fourth Porsche 911 or first Mercedes-Benz 300 SL ...

Okay, de.wikipedia.org does has some historical context [2]:

The essential reform of the German legislation in the field of information and
communication was carried out by the law regulating the framework conditions
for information and communication services (Information and Communication
Services Act - IuKDG) of July 22, 1997. The Teleservices Act was promulgated as
Article 1.

The Teleservices Act stipulated that every commercial and business-related web
presence on the Internet must contain a provider ID. The term “businesslike”
also includes all continuous, non-commercial offers. The old Teleservices Act
was replaced by the Telemedia Act on March 1, 2007.

Disclaimer: above's translation via translate.google.com _somehow_ reads right, but take it with a grain of salt. E. g.
»Anbieterkennung« might literally translate into a "provider ID", but if I'd read about a "provider
ID", I'd expect some state-issued ID card that I'm a provider of something. »Anbieterkennung« here actually means
"imprint obligation" — "who actually has written this text"? Given another part of the Wikipedia
entry, Google translates »Anbieterkennzeichnung« to »provider identification«, which fits a bit better.

"(1) Service providers shall keep the following information easily recognisable,
directly accessible and permanently available for business-like telemedia, which are
generally offered for remuneration:"

Yes, but "business-like" may or may not mean the same to you and/or to your
lawyer what »geschäftsmäßig« means in German legalese. The Duden has 3 definitions for
that word [3], only one of it goes broadly into a similar direction as [1].

Business-like telemedia and remuneration is about payment, commercial services
that require money or other compensation to use.

See [2]: "The term “businesslike” also includes all continuous, non-commercial
offers." (»Unter den Begriff „geschäftsmäßig“ fielen auch alle stetigen,
nicht-gewerblichen Angebote.«)

AFAIK, if _you_ get _any_ *benefit* from what you put on your website (via ads,
affiliate links, whatever), you're busted without an imprint. IANAL, and I
don't play one on Telemedien ;-)

But completely free services, are completely excempt from the imprint law.
If its free as in free beer, its not a service "offered for remuneration" and
thus law does NOT apply.

Yes, no, maybe — I'd either put up an imprint e. g. if I'd write about stuff on
Github I wrote, OR get proper legal advice from a lawyer specialized in German
media law. (And then put up an imprint nonetheless, unless another lawyer
explained to me that wrong counsel would make the first lawyer liable.)

In Sweden for example, we have a identical law for telecommunication (being a
ISP).
If you provide free public wifi in a café, you do NOT need permission or notify
the authorities.

You don't need permission in Germany, but I'm unsure about the current state of affairs regarding
notification to BNetzA based on §5 TKG. Does a free WiFi in a Café or Hotel fall under
"commercial" (»gewerblich«)? You might not _charge_ for it, but not offering it these
days reduces the attractiveness of the venue. And, frankly, as you will put the costs for
accesspoints and connectivity into your balance sheet to the tax authority, it's directly connected
to your business. But, as I said, IANAL and I'm not up to date on recent events in that area. But
because of »Mitstörerhaftung«, "Free WiFi" still isn't a thing in Germany anyway ...

But if you ask for payment, or require that the customer buys something to gain the wifi
password, then it’s a service "offered for remuneration" and you need a
telecommunications license like a ISP in Sweden.

So different legislation; in Germany, §5 TKG

Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

The thing is that theres 2 things discussing here:

There is "public service". According to EU and Swedish law, anything that 
responds on internet packets are a public service.
This because HTTP is not the only protocol that exist on the internet. 
Different protocols ask for password in different ways.
It would be totally impossible to, in law define "asking for password" so it 
fits all the 65 535 different TCP ports, and 65 535 different UDP ports on the 
internet.
Thus, the law says, if you respond on public packets, you are a public service.
If you want to become a private service, you have to make, so the password is 
sent in the initial SYN or UDP packet, and ignore any other requests.
Or lock your service to authorized IPs only, or only allow 192.168.*.* to 
connect.

Thus, cookie law - that applies to all sites, remundiation or not - also 
applies to password protected sites. Only sites excempt is intranet sites that 
are totally inaccessible form the outside.

Then we have the other, "offered for remundiation" part.
A service that is offered for remundiation, is a service that gives some 
financial gain to the owner of the service.
It can be in the form of ad revenue, it can be direct payment, it can be 
payment for other services that the same person offers, but it can also be 
donations. Donations are a form of non-asked remundiations.
As long as the service is used to "leverage the service owners wallet", it’s a 
service "offered for remundiation".
Providing personal details so the service owner can sell those details to a ad 
provider, is also remundiation.
Basically, anything that is in part or whole, worth money counts as 
remundiation.

When a service is provided totally for free, no strings attached, no 
requirements, nothing.
Then its not a "service offered for remundiation" and thus, according to that 
§5, its not a telemedia.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Slavko via mailop  
Skickat: den 23 oktober 2022 01:48
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dňa 22. októbra 2022 22:41:33 UTC používateľ Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop 
 napísal:
>Moin,


>What is an "online service"? The imprimt stuff in Germany stems from 
>Germany's »Telemediengesetz« (TMG), which defines what »Telemedien« are 
>and what applies to someone providing them. And I don't think it's 
>really useful to debate this in a foreign language arcoss very 
>different legal systems ;-)

Becomes your house/home public service, just because it has windows/doors to 
public street and anyone can see insude throught windows, or press doorbell, or 
try to open door?

That is personal Internet service, it has door/windows to public net.
Others can see it through windows (eg. web browser), they can use doorbell 
(deliver mail to you) or try to go inside (login), but mostly are as guests 
only. Of course, bad guys can intrude inside, exactly as they can into house, 
but that is another story.

Even when your childrens/friends, who live with you in it, will pay money to 
you (aka contribute), your house still doesn't become public service, and no 
one will name that "financial benefit". It will remain private, you only share 
costs.

Once you start to rent your rooms/beds to get profit, the situation changes...

The main diference is, that to have own house is really common, run Internet 
service requires more, more knowledge, more technical equipments, etc, thus not 
many people do it and some even think, that only "companies" can that... And 
companies even lobby against personal services, as they cannot get money from 
their users.

regards


--
Slavko
https://www.slavino.sk/
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dňa 22. októbra 2022 22:41:33 UTC používateľ Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop 
 napísal:
>Moin,


>What is an "online service"? The imprimt stuff in Germany stems from Germany's
>»Telemediengesetz« (TMG), which defines what »Telemedien« are and what applies
>to someone providing them. And I don't think it's really useful to debate this
>in a foreign language arcoss very different legal systems ;-)

Becomes your house/home public service, just because it has
windows/doors to public street and anyone can see insude throught
windows, or press doorbell, or try to open door?

That is personal Internet service, it has door/windows to public net.
Others can see it through windows (eg. web browser), they can use
doorbell (deliver mail to you) or try to go inside (login), but mostly
are as guests only. Of course, bad guys can intrude inside, exactly
as they can into house, but that is another story.

Even when your childrens/friends, who live with you in it, will pay
money to you (aka contribute), your house still doesn't become public
service, and no one will name that "financial benefit". It will remain
private, you only share costs.

Once you start to rent your rooms/beds to get profit, the situation
changes...

The main diference is, that to have own house is really common,
run Internet service requires more, more knowledge, more technical
equipments, etc, thus not many people do it and some even think,
that only "companies" can that... And companies even lobby against
personal services, as they cannot get money from their users.

regards


-- 
Slavko
https://www.slavino.sk/
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Another way to see it, is that if you want to use "password protection" to 
discharge you from being a public service, you have to use a scheme where the 
password is sent with the initial SYN or UDP packet, and then the service will 
completely ignore requests with a incorrect password.

Since the german law is based on EU law (telecommunication law), the law in all 
EU countries, including Sweden, are very similar, that’s why its possible to 
still discuss this across the borders.

The "offered for remundation" part is something that is also in Sweden law, 
copied straight off the EU law requirements.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop  
Skickat: den 23 oktober 2022 01:17
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Am 22.10.22 um 23:55 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:
> Germany and Sweden do not. And only paid online services require a imprint, 
> free OR personal online services do not in germany.

Seems like §18 Medienstaatsvertrag disagrees. (»(1) Anbieter von Telemedien, 
die nicht ausschließlich persönlichen oder familiären Zwecken dienen, haben 
folgende Informationen leicht erkennbar, unmittelbar erreichbar und ständig 
verfügbar zu halten […]«)

As it seems, if your website addresses the general public, or even is 
accessible by the general public (no htaccess), better put a basic imprint 
there.

If you're ready for German legalese, there's a podcast around this topic from 
2021-06-22 at https://rechtsbelehrung.com/impressum-rechtsbelehrung-94/ — in 
German, obviously ;-) -kai

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

a htaccess wont discharge you from being a "public service".
As long as you respond from packets from the public, you are a public service, 
even if you have .htaccess password protection.

For example, Swedish cookie law (requiring you to put a cookie banner if you 
use cookies on a public website) says that you need to put cookie information 
in the .htaccess "realm identifier" if you use .htaccess password protection 
for whole your site, since the site is by definition publicity accessible, if 
anyone can connect to its IP address.
Another way, is to put a cookie page before being redirected or linked to the 
.htaccess locked section. (This becomes a little danger for those that enable 
"Remote WAN Administration" on their routers, because then their routers become 
by definition, a password-protected public service)

Only way to survive not being for public, is to have a firewall that blocks 
public requests except for authorized IP adresses, or not forward its ports, 
and disable the "Respond on closed ports with a ICMP Port Unreachable" checkbox.

Note here that cookie law applies to ALL public websites and services that use 
cookies - even if you are offering them without remundiation.

This because telecommunication law in Sweden is technology neutral, and it 
doesn't matter if you offer the service in a obscure protocol on like port  
requiring some obscure software to use, its still a public service.
Thus, asking for a password, IS a response to a packet, and if you respond to a 
public packet, you are a public service.



This is why the "remundiation" part is important.

The §5 that was sent to me, says remundiation is required for the service in 
question to qualify.

Do you have the §18 in full?


-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop  
Skickat: den 23 oktober 2022 01:17
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Am 22.10.22 um 23:55 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:
> Germany and Sweden do not. And only paid online services require a imprint, 
> free OR personal online services do not in germany.

Seems like §18 Medienstaatsvertrag disagrees. (»(1) Anbieter von Telemedien, 
die nicht ausschließlich persönlichen oder familiären Zwecken dienen, haben 
folgende Informationen leicht erkennbar, unmittelbar erreichbar und ständig 
verfügbar zu halten […]«)

As it seems, if your website addresses the general public, or even is 
accessible by the general public (no htaccess), better put a basic imprint 
there.

If you're ready for German legalese, there's a podcast around this topic from 
2021-06-22 at https://rechtsbelehrung.com/impressum-rechtsbelehrung-94/ — in 
German, obviously ;-) -kai

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany


Am 22.10.22 um 23:55 schrieb Sebastian Nielsen via mailop:

Germany and Sweden do not. And only paid online services require a imprint, 
free OR personal online services do not in germany.


Seems like §18 Medienstaatsvertrag disagrees. (»(1) Anbieter von Telemedien, 
die nicht ausschließlich persönlichen oder familiären Zwecken dienen, haben 
folgende Informationen leicht erkennbar, unmittelbar erreichbar und ständig 
verfügbar zu halten […]«)

As it seems, if your website addresses the general public, or even is 
accessible by the general public (no htaccess), better put a basic imprint 
there.

If you're ready for German legalese, there's a podcast around this topic from 
2021-06-22 at https://rechtsbelehrung.com/impressum-rechtsbelehrung-94/ — in 
German, obviously ;-)
-kai

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

The article you linked to, was very clear (when running it through google 
translate) that the imprint requirement only required if it was a PAID service, 
requiring some compensation to use.

"(1) Service providers shall keep the following information easily 
recognisable, directly accessible and permanently available for business-like 
telemedia, which are generally offered for remuneration:"

Business-like telemedia and remuneration is about payment, commercial services 
that require money or other compensation to use.
Note however, that ads sometimes count as payment. It all depends.
It also applies to services that are offered for free as part of another 
payment.
You can't just say: "Buy this pizza and gain access to this site for free" and 
then not need to have a imprint.

But completely free services, are completely excempt from the imprint law.
If its free as in free beer, its not a service "offered for remuneration" and 
thus law does NOT apply.

In Sweden for example, we have a identical law for telecommunication (being a 
ISP).
If you provide free public wifi in a café, you do NOT need permission or notify 
the authorities.
But if you ask for payment, or require that the customer buys something to gain 
the wifi password, then it’s a service "offered for remuneration" and you need 
a telecommunications license like a ISP in Sweden.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop  
Skickat: den 23 oktober 2022 00:42
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Moin,

am 22.10.22 um 23:33 schrieb Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop:
> Dnia 22.10.2022 o godz. 19:06:25 Sebastian Nielsen via mailop pisze:
>> That’s why, running a PAID online service usually requires permission 
>> from the government too, so the government can do regular visits and 
>> checks to ensure you do the maintenance and provide the safety you 
>> promise or what can be expected by a customer.
> Does it really require a permission in Germany to run an online service?

What is an "online service"? The imprimt stuff in Germany stems from Germany's 
»Telemediengesetz« (TMG), which defines what »Telemedien« are and what applies 
to someone providing them. And I don't think it's really useful to debate this 
in a foreign language arcoss very different legal systems ;-)

For some services addressing the general public – like a public WiFi –, the 
operation has to be notified with the regulating authority (»BNetzA«). Whether 
or not a personal blog IS just a personal blog (no imprint needed) or 
considered to be a »Telemedium« (imprint needed): German legalese applies.
Fun fact: YouTube channels and the like could be seen as a broadcasting 
service, requiring an actual broadcast license like any TV or radio station ;-)

> Does some governmental agency really visit the company and checks anything?

Depends.

> But to be just a hosting company, or a mail service provider, using 
> existing networks operated by other entities, in most countries that I 
> know, requires only to be legally registered as a company.

AFAIK EU is still working on unifying the legal framework in the 
telecommunications area. But I'm rather sure there's no need to be a registered 
company to provide internet related services in Germany.
-kai
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany


Moin,

am 22.10.22 um 23:33 schrieb Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop:

Dnia 22.10.2022 o godz. 19:06:25 Sebastian Nielsen via mailop pisze:

That’s why, running a PAID online service usually requires permission from
the government too, so the government can do regular visits and checks to
ensure you do the maintenance and provide the safety you promise or what
can be expected by a customer.

Does it really require a permission in Germany to run an online service?


What is an "online service"? The imprimt stuff in Germany stems from Germany's
»Telemediengesetz« (TMG), which defines what »Telemedien« are and what applies
to someone providing them. And I don't think it's really useful to debate this
in a foreign language arcoss very different legal systems ;-)

For some services addressing the general public – like a public WiFi –, the
operation has to be notified with the regulating authority (»BNetzA«). Whether
or not a personal blog IS just a personal blog (no imprint needed) or
considered to be a »Telemedium« (imprint needed): German legalese applies.
Fun fact: YouTube channels and the like could be seen as a broadcasting
service, requiring an actual broadcast license like any TV or radio station ;-)


Does some governmental agency really visit the company and checks anything?


Depends.


But to be just a hosting company, or a mail service provider, using existing
networks operated by other entities, in most countries that I know, requires
only to be legally registered as a company.


AFAIK EU is still working on unifying the legal framework in the
telecommunications area. But I'm rather sure there's no need to be
a registered company to provide internet related services in Germany.
-kai
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Agreed, but some softwares do have a service period where the provider promises 
to update it regularly. Android has for example such a service requirement.
If such a service period is provided, then you can't just abandon the software 
without paying back those that have service left on their contract.

I was in my post generally talking about SERVICES rather than software, but 
another guy bringed up open source software.
Services is a different category, where if someone has paid for a period of 
service, you can't just shut down the service, then it would be fraud.

In some cases, its called "force majure", its permissible to shut down the 
service without repaying the customers, but that’s also why running services in 
some countries require arrangements and permits and such, just to ensure you 
don't have so low quality on your emergency/backup equipment so smallest power 
outage Is a force majure.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop  
Skickat: den 22 oktober 2022 23:41
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dnia 22.10.2022 o godz. 20:55:00 Sebastian Nielsen via mailop pisze:
> I agree about open source software, but its also important to know, 
> that you cannot expect anything. If the owner of the open source 
> software abandons it, then its abandoned.

It's no different for commercial software. If you read any EULA, it basically 
tells you the same: that you can't expect anything (despite the fact you pay 
for software). And if the company behind the software decides to abandon the 
software, it's abandoned. When it comes to software, there are no obligations 
or guarantees from the author/producer, regardless whether the software is free 
or commercial.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was 
a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

It depends. I was just generalizing. Some countries require permission when you 
host a service that is usually provided by telecom operators.
(for example mail service) and make it available to the public.

Germany and Sweden do not. And only paid online services require a imprint, 
free OR personal online services do not in germany.

Running a hosting company sometimes require permission, even if a normal 
connection is required to operate a hosting company, just because some 
countries have decided hosting companies fall into the telecom category.

It just depends on country.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop  
Skickat: den 22 oktober 2022 23:34
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dnia 22.10.2022 o godz. 19:06:25 Sebastian Nielsen via mailop pisze:
> 
> That’s why, running a PAID online service usually requires permission 
> from the government too, so the government can do regular visits and 
> checks to ensure you do the maintenance and provide the safety you 
> promise or what can be expected by a customer.

Does it really require a permission in Germany to run an online service?
Does some governmental agency really visit the company and checks anything?

Usually such restrictions and requirements apply only if you are a telecom 
operator, ie. have your own network and the main service you provide is 
connectivity (with an emphasis on voice connectivity ie. telephone service) 
over that network.

But to be just a hosting company, or a mail service provider, using existing 
networks operated by other entities, in most countries that I know, requires 
only to be legally registered as a company. It's a business like any other 
business and nobody needs to have any permission nor is checked by any 
governmental agencies for quality requirements.

If it's different in Germany then I am really, really very surprised.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was 
a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

2022-10-22 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop

Dnia 22.10.2022 o godz. 20:55:00 Sebastian Nielsen via mailop pisze:
> I agree about open source software, but its also important to know, that
> you cannot expect anything. If the owner of the open source software
> abandons it, then its abandoned.

It's no different for commercial software. If you read any EULA, it
basically tells you the same: that you can't expect anything (despite the
fact you pay for software). And if the company behind the software decides
to abandon the software, it's abandoned. When it comes to software, there
are no obligations or guarantees from the author/producer, regardless
whether the software is free or commercial.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

2022-10-22 Thread Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop

Dnia 22.10.2022 o godz. 19:06:25 Sebastian Nielsen via mailop pisze:
> 
> That’s why, running a PAID online service usually requires permission from
> the government too, so the government can do regular visits and checks to
> ensure you do the maintenance and provide the safety you promise or what
> can be expected by a customer.

Does it really require a permission in Germany to run an online service?
Does some governmental agency really visit the company and checks anything?

Usually such restrictions and requirements apply only if you are a telecom
operator, ie. have your own network and the main service you provide is
connectivity (with an emphasis on voice connectivity ie. telephone service)
over that network.

But to be just a hosting company, or a mail service provider, using existing
networks operated by other entities, in most countries that I know, requires
only to be legally registered as a company. It's a business like any other
business and nobody needs to have any permission nor is checked by any
governmental agencies for quality requirements.

If it's different in Germany then I am really, really very surprised.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dňa 22. októbra 2022 19:19:20 UTC používateľ Grant Taylor via mailop 
 napísal:

>I am particularly impressed with the FCC's use of "no pecuniary interest" when 
>discussing operating on an amateur radio license.
>
>My understanding is "pecuniary" is that you benefit in some way, be it 
>monetary compensation, favors, preferential treatment, or benefit in any way.

I am not familiar with amateur radio (despite that i graduated in high
frequency electronics) and "pecuniary" is out of my English knowledge,
but by your definition it (amat. radio) can be used, only if it is frustrating
or not working.

Because when one is happy that was success in it, he/she get "benefit in
any way" and get "preferential treatment" as not all can use it to
communicate (only with licence).

regards

-- 
Slavko
https://www.slavino.sk/
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

2022-10-22 Thread Grant Taylor via mailop


On 10/22/22 12:55 PM, Sebastian Nielsen via mailop wrote:
Think the "imprint" as a hygiene certification for a public for-pay 
internet service. Think like a digital restaurant, and you understand 
why these laws are there.


I'm not so sure about that.

I thought the imprint was simply official contact information.  I don't 
see how that also speaks for current health / safety inspection / 
certification.


Here in the U.S.A. businesses can have a license to operate a business 
which is independent of food / safety inspection.  They are two 
completely different things.




--
Grant. . . .
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

2022-10-22 Thread Grant Taylor via mailop


On 10/22/22 12:31 PM, Slavko via mailop wrote:
As fan & contributor to open source software i do not agree, no, 
not all is about money only.


I am particularly impressed with the FCC's use of "no pecuniary 
interest" when discussing operating on an amateur radio license.


My understanding is "pecuniary" is that you benefit in some way, be it 
monetary compensation, favors, preferential treatment, or benefit in any 
way.




--
Grant. . . .
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Correct.
But that something that is handled "internally". Its nothing that the 
government need to put their sticky fingers into.

It’s the same when you cook food in your home. Then its mutually known that its 
on their own risk, If the chef does the cooking wrong, someone might get a bad 
stomatch. But sometimes home-cooked food is better quality than mass produced 
restaurant food.
But that’s something that is known since its personal and friends in-between. 
It’s a private space that the government doesn't need to touch.

It’s a completely different thing when you cook food to strangers, and also 
taking payment for it. Then government need to put their nose into it, check 
that restaurant and hygiene and other food safety laws are followed and you 
also need permissions, public contact details and much other things, and also 
check that taxes are paid.

Think the "imprint" as a hygiene certification for a public for-pay internet 
service. Think like a digital restaurant, and you understand why these laws are 
there.

So I would say, when you run a private service, or a free online service, then 
ignore the german electronic communication law.
It simply doesn't apply to anything that is private/free.

I agree about open source software, but its also important to know, that you 
cannot expect anything.
If the owner of the open source software abandons it, then its abandoned. But 
that’s also where open source shines - anyone else can pick up on it and 
continue work on it, and continue the series.
But since its free, you can't really expect that the original owner should 
continue on it.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Slavko via mailop  
Skickat: den 22 oktober 2022 20:31
Till: 'Mailing List' 
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dňa 22. októbra 2022 17:06:25 UTC používateľ Sebastian Nielsen via mailop 
 napísal:

>If its free for absolutely no cost, then its "on your own risk". You can't 
>really expect anything if you grab something for free.
>Then imprint is not required, the electronic service laws doesn't apply, and 
>its totally up to you what you do.
>If you shut down the service after 2 months of operation, so be it, customers 
>got service for free and cannot expect anything.

As fan & contributor to open source software i do not agree, no, not all is 
about money only.

But you forget one very important (at least for me) free service
-- service for self/family/friends, where both sides (user - admin) are mutualy 
known. No money play role here, no gowernment is needed, etc...

And those services can be better than mass commercial, at least because they 
can be (and often are) personalized, not unified, to meet/fit personal needings.

regards


--
Slavko
https://www.slavino.sk/
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Dňa 22. októbra 2022 17:06:25 UTC používateľ Sebastian Nielsen via mailop 
 napísal:

>If its free for absolutely no cost, then its "on your own risk". You can't 
>really expect anything if you grab something for free.
>Then imprint is not required, the electronic service laws doesn't apply, and 
>its totally up to you what you do.
>If you shut down the service after 2 months of operation, so be it, customers 
>got service for free and cannot expect anything.

As fan & contributor to open source software i do not agree,
no, not all is about money only.

But you forget one very important (at least for me) free service
-- service for self/family/friends, where both sides (user - admin)
are mutualy known. No money play role here, no gowernment is
needed, etc...

And those services can be better than mass commercial, at least
because they can be (and often are) personalized, not unified, to
meet/fit personal needings.

regards


-- 
Slavko
https://www.slavino.sk/
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Yeah, and for tax control purposes aswell.
As long as you involve money into something, the government want to ensure its 
fair, so you don't scam people.

Ergo, paid online services hold a minimum quality, online games doesn't involve 
cheating, products hold what they promise etc.

Else it would be easy to start a paid mail service, take yearly payment, and 
after 2 months, shut down the server and then say "oops, server got a lighting 
strike and all account data of paid customers burned up".
That’s why the government want to enforce a specific minimum quality, including 
having permanent non-modifiable impressions and similar to ensure you don't 
cheat with money, and also make sure you are technically able to provide the 
service you promise to provide (ergo, backup servers, UPS, secured locations 
etc)
That’s also why gambling requires a license, so it can be checked that rules 
are being followed, that random generators hasn't been tampered with and much 
more.

When you sell a physical thing in a web shop, its easy to judge the quality, 
since it depends only on the product itself. For example, the strength of a 
rope or chain can be tested to ensure it meets the quality standard you promise.
When you sell a service (access to mail service or TV steam) it also involves 
things unreachable. For example, its impossible for you as a customer, to make 
sure your provider has a backup generator to run the service in the event of a 
power failure. You have to trust the provider's word for that.

That’s why, running a PAID online service usually requires permission from the 
government too, so the government can do regular visits and checks to ensure 
you do the maintenance and provide the safety you promise or what can be 
expected by a customer.

So the rules in question ONLY applies if you require SOMETHING in favor to 
provide the service, something that is or can be worth money.
It can be ads, it can be payment, it can be requirement to purchase something 
else, it can be personal details for ad purposes etc.


If its free for absolutely no cost, then its "on your own risk". You can't 
really expect anything if you grab something for free.
Then imprint is not required, the electronic service laws doesn't apply, and 
its totally up to you what you do.
If you shut down the service after 2 months of operation, so be it, customers 
got service for free and cannot expect anything.


-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Grant Taylor via mailop  
Skickat: den 22 oktober 2022 18:45
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

2022-10-22 Thread Grant Taylor via mailop


On 10/22/22 9:00 AM, Sebastian Nielsen via mailop wrote:
If you provide free services, customer can't expect anything, and 
you are free to do as your wish. If your email service goes down, 
so what? Customer got it for free, not our problem.  If you win a 
toaster in a free competition that required no entry fee, customer 
can't complain then when that toaster breaks down, because theres no 
warranty or requirement to repair or replace a toaster that you got 
completely for free.


Sebastian's entire comment, especially the last (quoted) paragraph, 
seems like the imprint / impressum is really the legal identification 
for consumers to use when filing a complaint / warranty / etc.  Which 
really seems like official data for consumer protection purposes.


If that is the case, it does make sense that said information should be 
readily available /somewhere/.  It's just that what information and 
where it is available can cause some people ... indigestion.




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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

Its very clear from the document you provided, that it DOES require that the 
service in question does bear a cost.
We have a similar law in Sweden when it comes to electronic communications, 
which only applies to services for-pay.
Free services are not included, so if you provide free wifi, it isn't included 
in law, but if you charge for the wifi, law applies.

The reason the payment requirement is written in a vague language ("like 
services that are provided for a charge") is so you cannot cheat the charge 
requirement by for example making the service ad-supported or surcharging the 
service with another service/product (for example, providing free email service 
for 6 months if you buy something in our webshop).

If you charge money for something, OF COURSE you must provide identification, 
including your social security number and your personal "tax PIN" publicity if 
you are a sole proprietor, when providing for-paid internet services. This is 
so the customer can make a complaint, and so it can be checked that you do pay 
the taxes correctly.
If you want to hide these details, start a company. Then it’s the company's 
details that is visible, and not your personal.

If you provide free services, customer can't expect anything, and you are free 
to do as your wish. If your email service goes down, so what? Customer got it 
for free, not our problem.
If you win a toaster in a free competition that required no entry fee, customer 
can't complain then when that toaster breaks down, because theres no warranty 
or requirement to repair or replace a toaster that you got completely for free.

-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Ralph Seichter via mailop  
Skickat: den 22 oktober 2022 11:12
Till: mailop@mailop.org
Ämne: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

* Slavko via mailop:

> BTW, my daughter (who live in Germany) told me, that name, address, 
> phone number and birthday date is enough to manipulate with bank 
> account in Germany.

I don't know of any German bank where this is the case. In my experience, banks 
are quite strict when it comes to account access; one always needs both 
athentication and authorization. Over the last month, all banks I do business 
with have also upgraded to 2FA, which I believe is now actually required by law.

> As all (except birthday, which is mostly no problem to get), have to 
> be in that "imprint", please, can someone confirm that?

See [1] (German only, unsurprisingly). Note that paragraph 5 of the 
"Telemediengesetz" (TMG) applies to imprint content for service providers. The 
somewhat tricky part is what actually constitutes a "service" in the context of 
this law. Some argue that even a personal blog is a service, others disagree 
and argue that personal (!) websites don't require an imprint. To avoid 
possible hassle, it is often recommended to add a generic imprint page, and 
there are cost-free "imprint generators" available.

  [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__5.html

Important: I am no lawyer, and what I wrote *MUST NOT* be considered legal 
advice in any shape or form. It is just my understanding of the rules.

-Ralph
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany

2022-10-22 Thread Bernardo Reino via mailop


On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, Slavko via mailop wrote:


Dňa Sat, 22 Oct 2022 11:12:28 +0200 Ralph Seichter via mailop
 napísal:


I don't know of any German bank where this is the case. In my
experience, banks are quite strict when it comes to account access;
one always needs both athentication and authorization. Over the last
month, all banks I do business with have also upgraded to 2FA, which
I believe is now actually required by law.


Thanks, i got one similar response off list, thus i ask daughter again,
and he confirmed, that she was able to change phone number (associated
with bank account) via phone (from new number) only by providing that
information.

Of course, we both can not to know, if it is standard or it was "good
will" (please approximate that term) from bank employee only...


In my experience the on-line banking security (nowadays anyways) is pretty good, 
due to the requirement of 2FA, etc.


The "physical security", i.e. when you go to the bank/counter and want to do 
something is (IMHO) lower, but it does require a proper identification (password 
or German identification document, etc.). Obviously, the whole thing depends on 
whether a forgery (or a stolen document) will be noticed, and the fact that 
having to be there in person may already be quite a good deterrent.


The weakest link is however the so-called "telephone banking", which maybe not 
all banks offer (but mine does), where you can do /some/ things by merely 
knowing the account number and a "telephone banking password", which is 
generally weak and available to the operator in clear text. I remember once I 
locked myself out (used wrong PIN in on-line banking) and had to phone to get 
unlocked, which required the phone password, which I had completely forgotten 
(because, who uses phone banking anyway?).


The lady on the phone was kind enough to suggest certain concepts and numbers 
which refreshed my memory on the spot :)


If I could I would disable that, and maybe with time banks will stop supporting 
this.


While IANAL in the end the important thing is where the liability lies, and I'd 
suspect that if the bank performs some operations based only on this telephone 
banking (or as you say, birth day & co.) then the liability should be with the 
bank, but I keep getting surprised by how things work (not only here, but 
everywhere).


Cheers,
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Re: [mailop] Tangent: Banks and imprint requirements in Germany