Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Marco Moock via mailop]

Am 22.03.2024 um 19:07:00 Uhr schrieb Michael Irvine via mailop:

> NOTE: IPs are dedicated from SendGrid

Sendgrid is a company that at least doesn't care about abuse from their
systems.
Assume that they are listed at various dnsbl or manually blocked by
postmasters.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1711130820mu...@cartoonies.org
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Kent McGovern via mailop]

"Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints due to
the nature of the industry."

They aren't false spam complaints in the eyes of the people receiving the
email.

Kent McGovern

On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 10:52 PM Michael Irvine via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

> Thank you. I will be opening a ticket with them to have it change. Biggest
> issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints due to the nature
> of the industry.  Hard to keep the domain as good without talking directly
> to the postmasters.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> *Michael Irvine *
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Michael Peddemors via mailop 
> Date: 3/22/24 17:09 (GMT-06:00)
> To: mailop@mailop.org
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click any links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and
> know the content is safe.
>
>
>
> If they are 'dedicated', doesn't matter if they are coming from
> SendGrid, the PTR should reflect your clients domain.
>
> host 149.72.234.90
> 90.234.72.149.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer
> wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net.
>
> And given the amount of abuse of SendGrid servers, anything you can do
> to differentiate from their generic naming conventions will help you.
>
>
> On 2024-03-22 12:07, Michael Irvine via mailop wrote:
> > Hello postmasters,
> >
> > One of our clients has been sending a debt collection campaign using
> > email as the last resort of communication. These emails are more
> > transactional and use a campaign mailing system to give some analytics.
> >
> > Context:
> >
> > We have 2 standard emails that go our daily. These emails describe the
> > debt and how they can help.
> >
> > IP Addresses:
> >
> > 149.72.234.90
> >
> > 149.72.238.176
> >
> > 168.245.18.103
> >
> > NOTE: IPs are dedicated from SendGrid
> >
> > Subject line:
> >
> > Unifin is here to help with your [DEBTDESCRIPTION1] account.
> >
> > NOTE: [DEBTDESCRIPTION1] is the name of the debt company.
> >
> >  From Addresses are:
> >
> > olivia.ander...@unifinrs.com  >
> >
> > emily.thomp...@unifinrs.com  >
> >
> > Reply-to email is:
> >
> > myacco...@unifininc.com  >
> >
> > Please reach out to me directly if there is additional information
> needed.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Michael Irvine | Great Computer Solutions
> >
> > m...@greatsys.com
> >
> >
> > ___
> > mailop mailing list
> > mailop@mailop.org
> > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
>
>
> --
> "Catch the Magic of Linux..."
> 
> Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
> Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
> A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
> "LinuxMagic" a Reg. TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.
> 
> 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada
>
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>
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop  said:
>Does USA have a government-certfied platform for electronic delivery of
>documents (like many European countries have) ...

No, and given the political structure here, we never will.

We do have a post office which delivers mail reliably to
every address in the country, at much lower cost than
European post offices do.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Jay Hennigan via mailop]

On 3/22/24 14:58, Michael Peddemors via mailop wrote:
If they are 'dedicated', doesn't matter if they are coming from 
SendGrid, the PTR should reflect your clients domain.


host 149.72.234.90
90.234.72.149.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 
wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net.


If Sendgrid claimed that these IPs are dedicated to you, their PTR says 
otherwise. It should reflect your sending domain. Note that Sendgrid has 
a rather poor reputation when it comes to spam exiting their network.


And given the amount of abuse of SendGrid servers, anything you can do 
to differentiate from their generic naming conventions will help you.


Or avoid Sendgrid entirely.

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:47:11 +, Michael Irvine via mailop
 wrote:

>I can't say the specific lenders, but I can say that it is not just bank and 
>money lending. We have clients who are from the courts and other 3rd parties 
>that do not fully validate the email that is given to them. We still must take 
>it as there are no good ways to get the correct known email for a person. When 
>we started, we worked to clean up the list and asked them to pass along to the 
>3rd party that we need the list to be better cleaned as there were many bad 
>emails (I have seen many bad and incorrect emails listed). We also have setup 
>the blacklist for those emails that have been sent, but failed due to 
>non-existent mailbox, full mailbox, etc. 
>
>The problem I am trying to fix is that these are legal emails and I need a way 
>to signal that to the providers. With many states and USA government stating 
>that email is a legal form of communication, how can we guarantee it to the 
>inbox if many of the users mark it as SPAM and potentially blocks other 
>communication. 

If such a mechanism were put in place, it would be inevitable that soon EVERY
spam would bear the marks of "this is a government-mandated legal document
which MUST be delivered".  

From the UK, I regularly receive legal notices, trial summaries, updates from
various government offices...  at an account that I established at Yahoo! in
1986 and have never used to communicate with foreign governments.

Even if some legal authority somewhere declares that email is required to be a
completely reliable communication channel with legally mandated delivery
requirements, email will be unchanged:  it is a medium in which your message
may be delivered, unless it isn't, in which case it won't be.

mdr
-- 
 "There are no laws here, only agreements."  
-- Masahiko

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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 25.03.2024 o godz. 16:10:47 Rob Kendrick via mailop pisze:
> > The problem I am trying to fix is that these are legal emails and I
> > need a way to signal that to the providers. With many states and USA
> > government stating that email is a legal form of communication, how
> > can we guarantee it to the inbox if many of the users mark it as SPAM
> > and potentially blocks other communication. 
> 
> You can't.  If you want to make sure they receive an important legal
> communication, send them a recorded delivery letter.  At least then you
> have evidence of its delivery (or lack of).

Does USA have a government-certfied platform for electronic delivery of
documents (like many European countries have) where every person can create
a "trusted account" ("trusted" means the identity of the person is confirmed
in some way based on some documents the person provides) and then have such
legal communications delivered to their "trusted account" and not via
e-mail?

Such a thing would be the best tool to use in such scenario.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Michael Irvine via mailop  said:
>I can't say the specific lenders, but I can say that it is not just bank and 
>money lending. We have clients who are from the courts and other 3rd parties 
>that do
>not fully validate the email that is given to them. We still must take it as 
>there are no good ways to get the correct known email for a person.

Speaking as a very small mail provider, and as someone who gets a
great deal of mail for people who imagine that my address is their
address, I do not care whether your mail is delivered. A lot of the
addresses are wrong, and the debt collection business is so sleazy
that even if the addresses are right, the debts often are not (and
getting a court to approve it is no guarantee.)

As someone else said, if you want to get the message delivered, send a
physical paper letter. If it's not worth spending a dollar to send the
notice, it must not be much of a debt.

R's,
John
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Bill Cole via mailop]

On 2024-03-25 at 12:53:31 UTC-0400 (Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:53:31 +0100)
Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop 
is rumored to have said:

Does USA have a government-certfied platform for electronic delivery 
of

documents


Not for general use. The IRS is piloting a direct tax filing system for 
a small number of taxpayers this year, but that is a very narrow and new 
application. Other departments have their own bespoke document 
submission rules and mechanisms. Some units of government use DocuSign 
or similar services.


There is a general aversion in the USA to the government doing anything 
that even slightly resembles a service that anyone in the private sector 
is already trying to do for a profit. Any such proposal raises screams 
of "SOCIALISM!" which basically kills anything.


--
Bill Cole
b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not Currently Available For Hire
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Bill Cole via mailop]

On 2024-03-25 at 11:47:11 UTC-0400 (Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:47:11 +)
Michael Irvine via mailop 
is rumored to have said:

how can we guarantee it to the inbox if many of the users mark it as 
SPAM and potentially blocks other communication.


You cannot. The fact that you have an email address is not any sort of 
evidence that the person who receives mail at that address knows 
anything about why you have it, much less evidence that you have their 
permission to send mail to it.


E.g. Were you to send such email to my most public address, it would be 
spam and I'd treat it as such, because while I have no debts to be 
collected, I am blessed with a fair number of people have given out that 
address maliciously over the past 2 decades; I get a lot of spam aimed 
at me by people who think I want (or deserve?) it. I don't care how 
anyone might have my address, if they send mail to it without 
permission, that email IS spam. So I expect to see none of your mail, 
but I would expect that *some* people receiving it legitimately can *AND 
SHOULD* report it as the spam that it is (for them.)


This is not good nor is it fair. It is a reality that is not going to 
change any time soon. I wish courts and legislators had enough basic 
technical comprehension to prohibit the use of email as a form of 
service for anything legal but they do not, never have, and likely never 
will. So you are going to do something (that you must do) which is 
intrinsically stupid and rude to a mix of some people who arguably 
deserve it and some whom you can only hope will be sympathetic and not 
report it as spam. Hopefully some day the dysfunction will provide 
enough negative feedback to make what you are doing illegal instead of 
unavoidable.




--
Bill Cole
b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Not Currently Available For Hire
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Graeme Fowler via mailop]

On 25 Mar 2024, at 16:53, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop  wrote:
> 
> Does USA have a government-certfied platform for electronic delivery of
> documents (like many European countries have) where every person can create
> a "trusted account" ("trusted" means the identity of the person is confirmed
> in some way based on some documents the person provides) and then have such
> legal communications delivered to their "trusted account" and not via
> e-mail?

Bearing in mind that the USA is a federal country comprised of 50 different 
smaller countries, each of which are made up of a bunch of even smaller 
countries still (almost ad infinitum) - nope. As a Brit, my mind is regularly 
bamboozled by the forest of responsible authorities that the US has, down to 
small town level.

I’m entirely with everyone that thinks email isn’t the right route for these 
communications though!

Graeme (slightly tongue-in-cheek)
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Richard W via mailop]

One also has to consider the quality of the data received. What kind of 
lender would accept an email address such as hotm...@hotmail.com as 
legit? (not the real address I'm seeing on mail from the noted IP 
addresses, but similar).


Richard

On 2024-03-25 6:50 a.m., Kent McGovern via mailop wrote:
"Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints due 
to the nature of the industry."


They aren't false spam complaints in the eyes of the people receiving 
the email.


Kent McGovern

On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 10:52 PM Michael Irvine via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:


Thank you. I will be opening a ticket with them to have it change.
Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints
due to the nature of the industry.  Hard to keep the domain as good
without talking directly to the postmasters.



Thanks,

**

*Michael Irvine *




 Original message 
From: Michael Peddemors via mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>
Date: 3/22/24 17:09 (GMT-06:00)
To: mailop@mailop.org 
Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
not click any links or open attachments unless you recognize the
sender and know the content is safe.



If they are 'dedicated', doesn't matter if they are coming from
SendGrid, the PTR should reflect your clients domain.

host 149.72.234.90
90.234.72.149.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer
wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net
.

And given the amount of abuse of SendGrid servers, anything you can do
to differentiate from their generic naming conventions will help you.


On 2024-03-22 12:07, Michael Irvine via mailop wrote:
> Hello postmasters,
>
> One of our clients has been sending a debt collection campaign using
> email as the last resort of communication. These emails are more
> transactional and use a campaign mailing system to give some analytics.
>
> Context:
>
> We have 2 standard emails that go our daily. These emails describe the
> debt and how they can help.
>
> IP Addresses:
>
> 149.72.234.90
>
> 149.72.238.176
>
> 168.245.18.103
>
> NOTE: IPs are dedicated from SendGrid
>
> Subject line:
>
> Unifin is here to help with your [DEBTDESCRIPTION1] account.
>
> NOTE: [DEBTDESCRIPTION1] is the name of the debt company.
>
>  From Addresses are:
>
> olivia.ander...@unifinrs.com 
>
>
> emily.thomp...@unifinrs.com 
>
>
> Reply-to email is:
>
> myacco...@unifininc.com 
>
>
> Please reach out to me directly if there is additional information needed.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Michael Irvine | Great Computer Solutions
>
> m...@greatsys.com 
>
>
> ___
> mailop mailing list
> mailop@mailop.org 
> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop



--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."

Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com 
@linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca

"LinuxMagic" a Reg. TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Michael Irvine via mailop]

I can't say the specific lenders, but I can say that it is not just bank and 
money lending. We have clients who are from the courts and other 3rd parties 
that do not fully validate the email that is given to them. We still must take 
it as there are no good ways to get the correct known email for a person. When 
we started, we worked to clean up the list and asked them to pass along to the 
3rd party that we need the list to be better cleaned as there were many bad 
emails (I have seen many bad and incorrect emails listed). We also have setup 
the blacklist for those emails that have been sent, but failed due to 
non-existent mailbox, full mailbox, etc. 

The problem I am trying to fix is that these are legal emails and I need a way 
to signal that to the providers. With many states and USA government stating 
that email is a legal form of communication, how can we guarantee it to the 
inbox if many of the users mark it as SPAM and potentially blocks other 
communication. 

Some links for reference:
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/debt-collection-faqs - How debt collectors 
can communicate.
https://www.prinz-lawfirm.com/our-blog/2023/october/-you-ve-got-mail-parties-may-now-be-served-via-e/
 - Illinois allows sending of summons via Email. 




Michael Irvine

-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Richard W via mailop
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2024 10:09
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
any links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.



One also has to consider the quality of the data received. What kind of lender 
would accept an email address such as hotm...@hotmail.com as legit? (not the 
real address I'm seeing on mail from the noted IP addresses, but similar).

Richard

On 2024-03-25 6:50 a.m., Kent McGovern via mailop wrote:
> "Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints due 
> to the nature of the industry."
>
> They aren't false spam complaints in the eyes of the people receiving 
> the email.
>
> Kent McGovern
>
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 10:52 PM Michael Irvine via mailop 
> mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
>
> Thank you. I will be opening a ticket with them to have it change.
> Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints
> due to the nature of the industry.  Hard to keep the domain as good
> without talking directly to the postmasters.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> **
>
> *Michael Irvine *
>
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Michael Peddemors via mailop  >
> Date: 3/22/24 17:09 (GMT-06:00)
> To: mailop@mailop.org 
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> not click any links or open attachments unless you recognize the
> sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
>
> If they are 'dedicated', doesn't matter if they are coming from
> SendGrid, the PTR should reflect your clients domain.
>
> host 149.72.234.90
> 90.234.72.149.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer
> wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net
> .
>
> And given the amount of abuse of SendGrid servers, anything you can do
> to differentiate from their generic naming conventions will help you.
>
>
> On 2024-03-22 12:07, Michael Irvine via mailop wrote:
> > Hello postmasters,
> >
> > One of our clients has been sending a debt collection campaign using
> > email as the last resort of communication. These emails are more
> > transactional and use a campaign mailing system to give some analytics.
> >
> > Context:
> >
> > We have 2 standard emails that go our daily. These emails describe the
> > debt and how they can help.
> >
> > IP Addresses:
> >
> > 149.72.234.90
> >
> > 149.72.238.176
> >
> > 168.245.18.103
> >
> > NOTE: IPs are dedicated from SendGrid
> >
> > Subject line:
> >
> > Unifin is here to help with your [DEBTDESCRIPTION1] account.
> >
> > NOTE: [DEBTDESCRIPTION1] is the name of the debt company.
> >
> >  From Addresses are:
> >
> > olivia.ander...@unifinrs.com 
>  >
> >
> > emily.thomp...@unifinrs.com 
>  >
> >
> > Reply-to email is:
> >
> > myacco...@unifininc.com 
> >
> >
> > Please reach out to me directly if there is additional 

Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Louis Laureys via mailop]

> how can we guarantee it to the inbox

You can't.

Anecdotally: Any legal mail I've received just notifies me of a URL I need to
click. Upon clicking that URL, the sender is notified I've opened the document.
If I never open the document they can assume it has never arrived (or I have
never checked my inbox), and they can contact me through other means like
registered mail or a phone call. Assuming someone checks their mailbox for legal
documents is a dangerous assumption IMO.


Groetjes,
Louis


Op maandag 25 maart 2024 om 16:47, schreef Michael Irvine via mailop
:

> I can't say the specific lenders, but I can say that it is not just bank and
> money lending. We have clients who are from the courts and other 3rd parties
> that do not fully validate the email that is given to them. We still must take
> it as there are no good ways to get the correct known email for a person. When
> we started, we worked to clean up the list and asked them to pass along to the
> 3rd party that we need the list to be better cleaned as there were many bad
> emails (I have seen many bad and incorrect emails listed). We also have setup
> the blacklist for those emails that have been sent, but failed due to
> non-existent mailbox, full mailbox, etc.
> 
> The problem I am trying to fix is that these are legal emails and I need a way
> to signal that to the providers. With many states and USA government stating
> that email is a legal form of communication, how can we guarantee it to the
> inbox if many of the users mark it as SPAM and potentially blocks other
> communication.
> 
> Some links for reference:
> https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/debt-collection-faqs
> [https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/debt-collection-faqs] - How debt collectors
> can communicate.
> https://www.prinz-lawfirm.com/our-blog/2023/october/-you-ve-got-mail-parties-may-now-be-served-via-e/
> [https://www.prinz-lawfirm.com/our-blog/2023/october/-you-ve-got-mail-parties-may-now-be-served-via-e/]
> - Illinois allows sending of summons via Email.
> 
> Michael Irvine
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: mailop  On Behalf
> Of Richard W via mailop
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2024 10:09
> To: mailop@mailop.org [mailop@mailop.org]
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers
> 
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click
> any links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> content is safe.
> 
> One also has to consider the quality of the data received. What kind of lender
> would accept an email address such as hotm...@hotmail.com
> [hotm...@hotmail.com] as legit? (not the real address I'm seeing on mail from
> the noted IP addresses, but similar).
> 
> Richard
> 
> On 2024-03-25 6:50 a.m., Kent McGovern via mailop wrote:
> > "Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints due
> > to the nature of the industry."
> >
> > They aren't false spam complaints in the eyes of the people receiving
> > the email.
> >
> > Kent McGovern
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 10:52 PM Michael Irvine via mailop
> > mailto:mailop@mailop.org
> [mailop@mailop.org]>> wrote:
> >
> > Thank you. I will be opening a ticket with them to have it change.
> > Biggest issue we have is that the number of false spam complaints
> > due to the nature of the industry. Hard to keep the domain as good
> > without talking directly to the postmasters.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > **
> >
> > *Michael Irvine *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Original message 
> > From: Michael Peddemors via mailop  > >
> > Date: 3/22/24 17:09 (GMT-06:00)
> > To: mailop@mailop.org [mailop@mailop.org]  [mailop@mailop.org]>
> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> > not click any links or open attachments unless you recognize the
> > sender and know the content is safe.
> >
> >
> >
> > If they are 'dedicated', doesn't matter if they are coming from
> > SendGrid, the PTR should reflect your clients domain.
> >
> > host 149.72.234.90
> > 90.234.72.149.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer
> > wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net
> >  [http://wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net/]>.
> >
> > And given the amount of abuse of SendGrid servers, anything you can do
> > to differentiate from their generic naming conventions will help you.
> >
> >
> > On 2024-03-22 12:07, Michael Irvine via mailop wrote:
> > > Hello postmasters,
> > >
> > > One of our clients has been sending a debt collection campaign using
> > > email as the last resort of communication. These emails are more
> > > transactional and use a campaign mailing system to give some analytics.
> > >
> > > Context:
> > >
> > > We have 2 standard emails that go our daily. These emails describe the
> > > debt and how they can help.
> > >
> > > IP Addresses:
> > >
> > 

Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Rob Kendrick via mailop]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 03:47:11PM +, Michael Irvine via mailop wrote:

> The problem I am trying to fix is that these are legal emails and I
> need a way to signal that to the providers. With many states and USA
> government stating that email is a legal form of communication, how
> can we guarantee it to the inbox if many of the users mark it as SPAM
> and potentially blocks other communication. 

You can't.  If you want to make sure they receive an important legal
communication, send them a recorded delivery letter.  At least then you
have evidence of its delivery (or lack of).

B.
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[mailop] is warming IPs still necessary?

[Gerald Oskoboiny via mailop]

We are planning to move the system that hosts our email 
discussion lists from its old home where it has been for decades 
to an EC2 instance on AWS. It does about 15k deliveries per day, 
most of which go to gmail or google-hosted email systems.


Is it still necessary to warm up new IP addresses gradually 
instead of going directly to this volume of deliveries? My 
impression is that it's less and less necessary in the age of 
DMARC, SPF and DKIM.


Nothing else would be changing from the recipient's point of view 
aside from the IP address (and network): the domain, 
return-paths, dkim keys and selectors involved would all be the 
same as they have been.


The new IP address doesn't seem to be on many public RBLs, and I 
have contacted Microsoft to have it removed from their block 
list.


Do many current sites require an IP's reputation to be 
established gradually? (particularly Google) Would it just 
greylist deliveries for a few hours, or fail worse than that?


The new host will be doing deliveries directly, not using SES.

Thanks,

--
Gerald Oskoboiny 
http://www.w3.org/People/Gerald/
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Matt Palmer via mailop]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:39:04PM -0500, Michael Rathbun via mailop wrote:
> an account that I established at Yahoo! in 1986

That's some mighty early adoption you've got there.

- Matt

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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Michael Irvine via mailop]

Thank you everyone. Is there any recommendation on other 3rd party senders that 
can be trusted instead of SendGrid. My last resort will be to setup some MTA's 
with the few free IP they have from the Datacenter. 

I also understand that the client is in the middle of a catch-22 in terms of 
sending email. I have already informed them that email will always be a best 
effort and not a guarantee. 

As for contacts other than email. Email is the last resort after all other 
avenues are attempted in the order of Snail Mail, Phone, SMS, and Social Media. 

Thanks,
 
Michael Irvine 

-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Jay Hennigan via mailop
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2024 1:37 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
any links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe.



On 3/22/24 14:58, Michael Peddemors via mailop wrote:
> If they are 'dedicated', doesn't matter if they are coming from 
> SendGrid, the PTR should reflect your clients domain.
>
> host 149.72.234.90
> 90.234.72.149.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 
> wrqvzxrx.outbound-mail.sendgrid.net.

If Sendgrid claimed that these IPs are dedicated to you, their PTR says 
otherwise. It should reflect your sending domain. Note that Sendgrid has a 
rather poor reputation when it comes to spam exiting their network.

> And given the amount of abuse of SendGrid servers, anything you can do 
> to differentiate from their generic naming conventions will help you.

Or avoid Sendgrid entirely.

--
Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net
Network Engineering - CCIE #7880
503 897-8550 - WB6RDV

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Re: [mailop] is warming IPs still necessary?

[Michael Peddemors via mailop]

Your biggest threat is hosting on AWS..

Given the nature of EC2, you want to ensure that the IPs you are using 
are not in the midst of some abusive IPs, and AWS is still not providing 
public 'rwhois' delegation to our knowledge.


Make sure that you have a correct PTR record of course, the generic EC2 
PTR naming convention will not get you far..


And 'warming' up.. well, if it is normal email you shouldn't need to, 
but if it is 'bulk' eg, similar content.. you do need to develop 
'trust', and that isn't always about simply 'warming' up the IP.


IMHO.. Which brings me to another perfect example.. various VPN 
providers who try to use EC2 IPs.. but yet don't publicize/identify 
explicitly their IPs, and generate traffic that may look suspicious..


Just ran into a person who asked.. what IPs are used for Norton's VPN 
service.. I could not answer them.. trolling Google and Norton's site 
and forums for a bit, showed it wasn't easy to get that answer.  And 
doing a DNS walk on the 'supposed' ranges didn't show any results..


So, think very carefully on your choices, and what information you 
should advertise to develop 'trust' for your IPs


I can't talk to convenience, security or costs.. but there might be 
other hosting solutions that allow for more transparency, that might be 
better for your use case.. That IS if you have a desire for transparency..


On 2024-03-25 15:58, Gerald Oskoboiny via mailop wrote:
We are planning to move the system that hosts our email discussion lists 
from its old home where it has been for decades to an EC2 instance on 
AWS. It does about 15k deliveries per day, most of which go to gmail or 
google-hosted email systems.


Is it still necessary to warm up new IP addresses gradually instead of 
going directly to this volume of deliveries? My impression is that it's 
less and less necessary in the age of DMARC, SPF and DKIM.


Nothing else would be changing from the recipient's point of view aside 
from the IP address (and network): the domain, return-paths, dkim keys 
and selectors involved would all be the same as they have been.


The new IP address doesn't seem to be on many public RBLs, and I have 
contacted Microsoft to have it removed from their block list.


Do many current sites require an IP's reputation to be established 
gradually? (particularly Google) Would it just greylist deliveries for a 
few hours, or fail worse than that?


The new host will be doing deliveries directly, not using SES.

Thanks,




--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."

Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Reg. TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

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Re: [mailop] is warming IPs still necessary?

[Mark Fletcher via mailop]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 4:30 PM Gerald Oskoboiny via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

> We are planning to move the system that hosts our email
> discussion lists from its old home where it has been for decades
> to an EC2 instance on AWS. It does about 15k deliveries per day,
> most of which go to gmail or google-hosted email systems.
>
> Is it still necessary to warm up new IP addresses gradually
> instead of going directly to this volume of deliveries?
>

Yes, it's still necessary to warm up IP addresses, at least in my current
experience. Our biggest problem has been with Microsoft, and their rate
limiting of new IP addresses. There are others that also rate limit new IP
addresses, but at least with them, you can generally find someone here on
mailop that can help.

We've never had a problem with Gmail/Google.

Cheers,
Mark
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Re: [mailop] Debt Collection Client Email Servers

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 23:21:51 +, Matt Palmer via mailop 
wrote:

>That's some mighty early adoption you've got there.

Yeah.  I'm gonna have my cataract surgery in a couple weeks.  Meanwhile, the
correct number is 1996.

Fytu, 

mdr

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Re: [mailop] is warming IPs still necessary?

[Michael Rathbun via mailop]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 15:58:33 -0700, Gerald Oskoboiny via mailop
 wrote:

>Is it still necessary to warm up new IP addresses gradually 
>instead of going directly to this volume of deliveries? My 
>impression is that it's less and less necessary in the age of 
>DMARC, SPF and DKIM.

The rule that governs many of the dynamic IP reputation systems that I am
familiar with is:  "Don't give us any surprises."

When I was a spam analyst at MSFT in a previous geologic era, we had a guy who
would build out a new Eonix /24, send test messages to seed accounts until he
decided that he had found ways around the rules that killed the tail end of
yesterday's blast, made his changes, backed his truck up to our network and
dumped between five and fifteen million messages over a period of about half
to three quarters of an hour.

At that time, we had nothing technical implemented that would handle this, so
it worked quite well.  Eventually, we were able to convince people who did the
engineering at the border to consider the "No Surprises" rule.

One of my clients, without consulting aforehand, apparently decided that he
really needed to do a 10X augmentation to his daily volume.  Before the
inevitable algorithmic corrections based on the ghastly volume of spam
notifications, the border logic at several major providers moved his IP
reputations from Good or OK to reject, with sampling.  Overall, his border
rejection rate went from 1.45% (not great, but not yet a policy enforcement
matter) to 55.6% (yes, this is a policy enforcement matter).

The sudden onslaught you propose may actually succeed in the main, and after a
couple weeks of zero-complaint/excellent-open stats you will be back in good
graces overall, it might be well to look at a week-long cutover transition, if
the technology permits.

mdr
-- 
  Ad finem pugnabo.

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