Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Telesto]

Op 2-5-2021 om 17:41 schreef Marc Paré:

Le 2021-05-01 à 02 h 37, Clocked Modular a écrit :

Dear friends,

The first thing, I think, what we need is an open source(O-S) public ethics
awareness.
Not only for our users but for all open-source users.

Perhaps, avoid re-inventing the wheel, and link our users questioning
the definition of open source to great pages where the open source model
is explained. I like to point people to this location:

https://www.theopensourceway.org/the_open_source_way-guidebook-2.0.html

Where open source and the role of community is explained quite well. The
site is supported by RedHat.
Thanks for the pointer. I will study it.  As I'm surely having 
superficial knowledge related to the terrain (landscape) around open source.
However open source isn't utopia in all dimensions from my perspective. 
That's something I convinced off in my experience. Hard (practical) 
reality compared to theoretical design.


Eco-system partners (commercial entity's!)do struggle once in a while 
around making revenue. Which is a a (red) flag/ warning sign.


And there are number of practical examples as well. But those will be 
interpreted in multiple ways. And surely possible to 'argue them away'.
It's not a bug but a feature kind of argument. As being inherent to open 
source (or even any organization) or within limits of acceptance.

So hesitant to start giving examples

The decision making is often messy and confusing. Without clear vision 
or strategy. Yes in company a management dictates sometimes without 
listing to any party (or skewed interpretation)
But meritocratic approach has tendency to 'lack a strategy' at all. 
Might maybe a living 'doctrine' approach in ideal circumstances. But 
also lots of directionlessness.  Quality and flaw at the same time!


Tendency is to keep everyone on board by definition. Open to input is 
fine. Choosing direction (strategy) does mean you can't keep everybody 
happy all the time.
And watered-down comprises - which results in keeping status quo; 
desperate attempt saving both the goats and the cabbages - do mostly not 
work out in the long-term.
[Wrong strategy doesn't work either, so choosing a strategy doesn't mean 
success by definition] Which obviously thrown in by those who dislike 
it. And well you can't reason yourself out of it.
You can only 'proof' it after the fact. But you simply don't know where 
you're going in advance. You hope, beg you're doing they 'right' thing.


And well there is some blaming going on once in a while regarding 
eco-sytem partners. About their practices, which I somehow even understand.
Not saying I'm agreeing with it per se. But well every move upsets some 
fractions (which triggers a pretty big response).


All those debates result in some weird status quo by definition. So 
"sneaky" practices start to appear (surprise actions; overrunning the 
decision making process by doing it before consult).

Which again a red flag about how cumbersome the decision making is.
And the willingness to 'listen' or "to place oneself in someone else's 
shoes". If you don't have personal on the line, having to pay the bills 
of company (or even depending on revenue for your old age).
In that case you can have all sorts of 'priority's interests' which 
don't align with the eco-system partners. And obviously pretend 
LibreOffice could do without them.


If you got stuck in the dissension making to often you're thing on your 
own terms. As it's impossible to work with the very heterogeneous 
community with really different believes once in a while.
It is as messy (or maybe even worse) as in politics with impossible 
comprises. And with per-arrangements out of sight


Kind regards,
Telesto



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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2021-05-01 à 02 h 37, Clocked Modular a écrit :
> Dear friends,
>
> The first thing, I think, what we need is an open source(O-S) public ethics
> awareness.
> Not only for our users but for all open-source users.
Perhaps, avoid re-inventing the wheel, and link our users questioning
the definition of open source to great pages where the open source model
is explained. I like to point people to this location:

https://www.theopensourceway.org/the_open_source_way-guidebook-2.0.html

Where open source and the role of community is explained quite well. The
site is supported by RedHat.

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Clocked Modular]

Dear friends,

The first thing, I think, what we need is an open source(O-S) public ethics
awareness.
Not only for our users but for all open-source users.

Free and open is not effortless. If all O-S users start to have the
perception that even the smallest monthly amount helps them to stay free.
That they are not powerless towards big-corp. if they together put their
energy in the goal of remaining free.
Only that way they will remain to be free.

Personally I have chosen to live an as environmental friendly live as
possible. My choice is to have a low as possible income because that is the
most environmental friendly. That is the reason for me to avoid 'big-corp'.
(I've been there).
Still I pay a small fee for all "free" software I use, because I do
understand software is not made from thin air. And I want to stay free.

For example:
If all Mozilla-Firefox users paid a few dollars a month to the Mozilla
foundation, Mozilla would not be dependent from Google.

So I think we first need a Free Software Foundation wide ethical
open-source users conduct. So every "Free" software can hook in to a
central code of conduct linked to a "Freedom is not effortless" campaign.

From that, I think, we need a stay-free logo/icon that can be used by all
O-S apps to link to the monthly contribution page.

By the way the other side of this is a public available annual financial
report by all who use the "Freedom is not effortless" trade-marks.

Met vriendelijke groet,
With kind regards,
Boudi van Vlijmen.

*Because email is an old and insecure first generation internet protocol we
will, **in time,  stop** to use email. If you want to contact us and are
not known with us, you can use the web contact form
.
If you are known with us you can use our signal account
 or* RCS
 *to chat, or we
share an cloud environment.*
===
Omdat e-mail een oud en onveilig internetprotocol van de eerste generatie
is, zullen we op termijn stoppen met het gebruik van e-mail. Als u contact
met ons wilt opnemen en niet bij ons bekend bent, kunt u het
contactformulier

gebruiken. Als u bij ons bekend bent, kunt u ons signal
-account of RCS
 gebruiken om te
chatten, of we delen een uitwisseling omgeving.


Op wo 28 apr. 2021 om 16:33 schreef Telesto :

> Op 28-4-2021 om 11:50 schreef Mike Saunders:
> >> To be transparent of these info-bars, I would like it to appear
> >> somewhere on the official LibreOffice site where the frequency is shown
> >> and perhaps also the rationale for the frequency and a good explanation
> >> of what is meant as "Get Involved" and "Donate ..." (or linked to their
> >> appropriate pages). Make it clear as to where the money is being
> >> invested and to the German non-profit/charitable laws governing the use
> >> of the money ... do the German non-profit/charitable laws/rules force
> >> the project to spend all of the donation income within that fiscal year?
> > The https://www.libreoffice.org/donate/ page that we link to has an
> > infographic on the right showing what the money is being used for, and
> > some text underneath about the non-profit status. There's also a link to
> > "financials and budget", although it's further down the right-hand
> > column. We're working on a website redesign now, so maybe we can make
> > those more prominent on the donate page...
> Not to nag, but well I still struggle with the whole donation topic.
> As I personally perceive it as kind of misleading (easy to misconceive).
> In the sense that especially bugfixing (but maybe also features),
> being outside of the scope of TDF . Obviously infra, meetings,
> documentation and such is also important.
>
> However people do see  a relation between donation and bugfixing. Or to
> phrase it differently.
> Some say, I have donated, why is bug XYZ not gone. This obviously not
> how it works,
> but implies a relation between donation to bugfixing. And that's what I
> would expect to. But that's exactly how it not works.
> No money is flowing to development directly.  And actually can't flow,
> because of the non-profit status and rules attached.
> Donations maybe also thank you to developers who fixed something, while
> TDF being kind of unrelated.
>
> TDF needs funding to obviously. All the other stuff is also important.
> However the whole mystery around TDF and spending makes kind of public
> secret.
> You have to make study to actually know about the 'broken transfer
> system' regarding bugfixing
> You're actually doing more 'good' by buying LibreOffice from eco-system
> partners, IMHO.
>
> And yes, this is not marketing topic, but well marketing circling around
> the hairy area 

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2021-04-28 à 05 h 50, Mike Saunders a écrit :
>> So, yes, I am for this. As far as frequency, I favour every the three
>> month info-bar. I think every second month a little too quick. I would
>> also favour more like:
>>
>> * after 3 months -- info-bar on "Get Involved"
>> * after 6 months -- info-bar on "Donate to support ..."
> That's the current setup that we're using, so you think it's best to
> leave it like that -- is that right?
>
Yes, I am in favour to leave it as is. Perhaps doing a blind test with
some people unfamiliar or new with the suite and asking them to suggest
a particular frequency off the top of their heads. They may have a more
meaningful impression of this particular question. Perhaps asking the
same question in the various user mailinglists?

Cheers,

Marc

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Telesto]

Op 28-4-2021 om 11:50 schreef Mike Saunders:

To be transparent of these info-bars, I would like it to appear
somewhere on the official LibreOffice site where the frequency is shown
and perhaps also the rationale for the frequency and a good explanation
of what is meant as "Get Involved" and "Donate ..." (or linked to their
appropriate pages). Make it clear as to where the money is being
invested and to the German non-profit/charitable laws governing the use
of the money ... do the German non-profit/charitable laws/rules force
the project to spend all of the donation income within that fiscal year?

The https://www.libreoffice.org/donate/ page that we link to has an
infographic on the right showing what the money is being used for, and
some text underneath about the non-profit status. There's also a link to
"financials and budget", although it's further down the right-hand
column. We're working on a website redesign now, so maybe we can make
those more prominent on the donate page...

Not to nag, but well I still struggle with the whole donation topic.
As I personally perceive it as kind of misleading (easy to misconceive). 
In the sense that especially bugfixing (but maybe also features),
being outside of the scope of TDF . Obviously infra, meetings, 
documentation and such is also important.


However people do see  a relation between donation and bugfixing. Or to 
phrase it differently.
Some say, I have donated, why is bug XYZ not gone. This obviously not 
how it works,
but implies a relation between donation to bugfixing. And that's what I 
would expect to. But that's exactly how it not works.
No money is flowing to development directly.  And actually can't flow, 
because of the non-profit status and rules attached.
Donations maybe also thank you to developers who fixed something, while 
TDF being kind of unrelated.


TDF needs funding to obviously. All the other stuff is also important.
However the whole mystery around TDF and spending makes kind of public 
secret.
You have to make study to actually know about the 'broken transfer 
system' regarding bugfixing
You're actually doing more 'good' by buying LibreOffice from eco-system 
partners, IMHO.


And yes, this is not marketing topic, but well marketing circling around 
the hairy area by putting info-banners inside LibreOffice.

Same for the banners on libreoffice.org download page.

And well I know this "being topic" for quite a while. Meeks written 
enough about it. And where still is some status quo land. Still hoping 
for a change; a fix.

Current situation is one 'Big ball of mud' to me.

Note: simply mentioning it; not expecting marketing to sort this out 
(but it does play in the background)


Cheers,
Telesto



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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Mike Saunders]

Hi Telesto,

On 28.04.21 16:32, Telesto wrote:
>
> Some say, I have donated, why is bug XYZ not gone. This obviously not
> how it works,
> but implies a relation between donation to bugfixing. And that's what I
> would expect to. But that's exactly how it not works.

Thanks for your feedback -- especially good to hear, given how involved
you are on Bugzilla. And indeed, I've seen this happen sometimes too.

I think we can say that *some* donations help with bugfixing: TDF
employs Xisco to manage the QA project, for instance, and organise Bug
Hunting Sessions.

> You're actually doing more 'good' by buying LibreOffice from eco-system
> partners, IMHO.

This is something we often say, when people request new features: TDF is
the small non-profit at the "core" of LibreOffice, but most of the new
feature development is done by ecosystem companies and independent
developers. So donations are very much welcome to keep the project going
smoothly as a whole, but for individual features, people should contact
companies/developers: https://www.documentfoundation.org/gethelp/developers/

> Note: simply mentioning it; not expecting marketing to sort this out
> (but it does play in the background)

It's all part of the bigger picture indeed, so thanks for bringing it up!

Cheers,
Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Sreekanth V K]

As others have pointed out we can have many ways to contribute and support the 
TDF. Is it possible to merge that info together and others can choose according 
to their capacity?

Frequent request may not be a good idea. I think an interval of six months 
would be good so that it won't look like forcing people.

Sincerely,
Sreekanth

Sent from ProtonMail mobile

 Original Message 
On 28 Apr 2021, 15:20, Mike Saunders wrote:

> Hi Marc,
>
> Thanks for your feedback!
>
> On 27.04.21 20:18, Marc Paré wrote:
>>
>> IMO, best we consider all categories of donations to the project,
>> whether it be code, design, QA, Docs, Marketing, Advocacy, financial
>> supporters to the project (this is our donor-base). If one is assuming
>> that the code alone has made the project what it is, then, it would be a
>> sad statement on the TDF/LibreOffice project and would do nothing more
>> than be-little all of the other contributors donation to time, help and
>> financial support to make LibreOffice so great a project.
>
> Yes, I agree, which is why the "Get involved" infobar button points to
> this general page, rather than one specifically about coding:
>
> https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
>
> This page tries to highlight the many different ways to get involved,
> and has non-coding "bite-size tasks" at the start too.
>
>> So, yes, I am for this. As far as frequency, I favour every the three
>> month info-bar. I think every second month a little too quick. I would
>> also favour more like:
>>
>> * after 3 months -- info-bar on "Get Involved"
>> * after 6 months -- info-bar on "Donate to support ..."
>
> That's the current setup that we're using, so you think it's best to
> leave it like that -- is that right?
>
>> To be transparent of these info-bars, I would like it to appear
>> somewhere on the official LibreOffice site where the frequency is shown
>> and perhaps also the rationale for the frequency and a good explanation
>> of what is meant as "Get Involved" and "Donate ..." (or linked to their
>> appropriate pages). Make it clear as to where the money is being
>> invested and to the German non-profit/charitable laws governing the use
>> of the money ... do the German non-profit/charitable laws/rules force
>> the project to spend all of the donation income within that fiscal year?
>
> The https://www.libreoffice.org/donate/ page that we link to has an
> infographic on the right showing what the money is being used for, and
> some text underneath about the non-profit status. There's also a link to
> "financials and budget", although it's further down the right-hand
> column. We're working on a website redesign now, so maybe we can make
> those more prominent on the donate page...
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
>
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Mike Saunders]

Hi Sreekanth,

On 28.04.21 12:31, Sreekanth V K wrote:
>
> As others have pointed out we can have many ways to contribute and
> support the TDF. Is it possible to merge that info together and others
> can choose according to their capacity?

The https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ pages shows the
many different ways to contribute -- is that what you mean? Or is there
something else you think we should add there?

We also have https://whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org which shows the many
different ways to contribute to LibreOffice. Maybe we don't need both
the "Get involved" and "What can I do" sites...

> Frequent request may not be a good idea. I think an interval of six
> months would be good so that it won't look like forcing people.

OK, thanks for your feedback!

Cheers,
Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Mike Saunders]

Hi Marc,

Thanks for your feedback!

On 27.04.21 20:18, Marc Paré wrote:
>
> IMO, best we consider all categories of donations to the project,
> whether it be code, design, QA, Docs, Marketing, Advocacy, financial
> supporters to the project (this is our donor-base). If one is assuming
> that the code alone has made the project what it is, then, it would be a
> sad statement on the TDF/LibreOffice project and would do nothing more
> than be-little all of the other contributors donation to time, help and
> financial support to make LibreOffice so great a project.

Yes, I agree, which is why the "Get involved" infobar button points to
this general page, rather than one specifically about coding:

https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/

This page tries to highlight the many different ways to get involved,
and has non-coding "bite-size tasks" at the start too.

> So, yes, I am for this. As far as frequency, I favour every the three
> month info-bar. I think every second month a little too quick. I would
> also favour more like:
> 
> * after 3 months -- info-bar on "Get Involved"
> * after 6 months -- info-bar on "Donate to support ..."

That's the current setup that we're using, so you think it's best to
leave it like that -- is that right?

> To be transparent of these info-bars, I would like it to appear
> somewhere on the official LibreOffice site where the frequency is shown
> and perhaps also the rationale for the frequency and a good explanation
> of what is meant as "Get Involved" and "Donate ..." (or linked to their
> appropriate pages). Make it clear as to where the money is being
> invested and to the German non-profit/charitable laws governing the use
> of the money ... do the German non-profit/charitable laws/rules force
> the project to spend all of the donation income within that fiscal year?

The https://www.libreoffice.org/donate/ page that we link to has an
infographic on the right showing what the money is being used for, and
some text underneath about the non-profit status. There's also a link to
"financials and budget", although it's further down the right-hand
column. We're working on a website redesign now, so maybe we can make
those more prominent on the donate page...

Cheers,
Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Telesto]

This starts to become interesting. My initial (lazy) view, no objecting 
against showing the 'info bar' slightly more often.
However, Justin is making a good point too. Someone donating code for 
free (without strings attached) and making LibreOffice what it is and 
someone else going to nag about donations.
Something a (or multiple) contributing developer dislike (or even 
disagreeing  with).


So we arrive at discipline of Philosophy and Ethics.

The more Philosophy question what are objections against the infobar? 
Certain can think of some of those.
Dislike the begging? Seeing this as profiting of others work? The way 
donations are used? Seeing donations of some kind disguised license fee?


From my perspective - having plenty of bug in mind - I love 'progress'. 
And default answer: "no budget".
So fund raising is not something I'm against. If donations contribute to 
the (developer) budget..
However there is also the whole TDF spending trouble. Generating money 
without purpose (can't be spend) being useless. Or can be spend, but not 
on practical user-bugs but some hidden code-refactor.
Nothing against code-refactors. But well sometimes you want to see 
something touchable. Not something hidden deeply under the hood. So 
needs bigger strategic plan (vision) about donations & spending.


Which obviously include the topic about being 'fair' to those who 
contribute code for free. Which might entail a substantial (not 
exclusively; but proportional)  say in the spending of the donations
(as those donations all generated by their efforts).  As far this helps 
to reduce the objections; only guessing here.. Maybe missing the point 
(objections).


There is some tendency 'of doing something'. Taking action without 
proper carefully preparation and overthinking (a plan)
Yes overthinking can cause another round of plenty of input. But this 
can be managed with timelines (for input an such) and decent decision 
hierarchy and proper level,

by those who are appointed to make these decisions.

Kind regards,
Telesto


Op 27-4-2021 om 17:52 schreef Justin Luth:

You are already getting my code contributions completely free, so IMHO 
you should be satisfied with people making general donations to TDF 
instead of ever nagging them via infobars. So I still think this is a 
bad idea.



Justin


On 4/27/21 5:28 PM, Mike Saunders wrote:

Hello everyone,

In recent versions of LibreOffice, we have an infobar that's
periodically displayed at the top of the screen, including some text and
a link. Currently the configuration is:

* 90 days after installation: show a "Get involved" button

* 180 days after installation: show a "Donate to support our community"
button

We know that the donate infobar results in a lot of donations; people
using LibreOffice for six months are (hopefully!) still satisfied.

So the question is: should we change how often these are shown? We don't
want to "nag" anybody, but at the same time, one bar every three months
isn't much, I think, given that users get a completely free office
suite. IMO we could show the "get involved" bar after two months, and
the "donate" after four -- but what do others think?






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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2021-04-27 à 11 h 52, Justin Luth a écrit :
> You are already getting my code contributions completely free, so IMHO
> you should be satisfied with people making general donations to TDF
> instead of ever nagging them via infobars. So I still think this is a
> bad idea.
>
>
> Justin
>
>
> On 4/27/21 5:28 PM, Mike Saunders wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> In recent versions of LibreOffice, we have an infobar that's
>> periodically displayed at the top of the screen, including some text and
>> a link. Currently the configuration is:
>>
>> * 90 days after installation: show a "Get involved" button
>>
>> * 180 days after installation: show a "Donate to support our community"
>> button
>>
>> We know that the donate infobar results in a lot of donations; people
>> using LibreOffice for six months are (hopefully!) still satisfied.
>>
>> So the question is: should we change how often these are shown? We don't
>> want to "nag" anybody, but at the same time, one bar every three months
>> isn't much, I think, given that users get a completely free office
>> suite. IMO we could show the "get involved" bar after two months, and
>> the "donate" after four -- but what do others think?
>>
>

There are many ways to contribute. As I am not a coder, I try to
contribute as best as I can to the project. However, others may not have
the time to contribute to the project with marketing, QA verifying bugs
and triage, docs etc. So, people who join in to help the project by
donating some funds makes of them part of the project. Those who would
rather help out with donating funds are aware that funds generally go to
infrastructure, meetup/conference costs, hardware purchases, marketing
kits for our native language groups in various countries, etc ... 
Donors are a category of contributors to the project that should not be
ignored. I believe that LibreOffice users are quite aware that they are
donating to the project and not for the product ... they all know that
the product comes with no financial requirements; if they believe they
are donating to the product, then usually one of our contributors on the
help list/forums will set them straight.

IMO, best we consider all categories of donations to the project,
whether it be code, design, QA, Docs, Marketing, Advocacy, financial
supporters to the project (this is our donor-base). If one is assuming
that the code alone has made the project what it is, then, it would be a
sad statement on the TDF/LibreOffice project and would do nothing more
than be-little all of the other contributors donation to time, help and
financial support to make LibreOffice so great a project.

So, yes, I am for this. As far as frequency, I favour every the three
month info-bar. I think every second month a little too quick. I would
also favour more like:

* after 3 months -- info-bar on "Get Involved"
* after 6 months -- info-bar on "Donate to support ..."
* then skip to a 9-month schedule after that last 6-month info-bar.
Asking for either "Get Involved" and "Donate" -- by then a new version
of LibreOffice would be in the wings and users would be hyped about the
next LibreOffice iteration.

To be transparent of these info-bars, I would like it to appear
somewhere on the official LibreOffice site where the frequency is shown
and perhaps also the rationale for the frequency and a good explanation
of what is meant as "Get Involved" and "Donate ..." (or linked to their
appropriate pages). Make it clear as to where the money is being
invested and to the German non-profit/charitable laws governing the use
of the money ... do the German non-profit/charitable laws/rules force
the project to spend all of the donation income within that fiscal year?
And also add to the page financials that show where past donations were
spent and perhaps any projections as to the next fiscal year's plans for
donation-income spending.

Cheers,

Marc

-- 
Marc Paré
m...@marcpare.com
https://www.parEntreprise.com
parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF)
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Over 1,000 project developers with impeccable help from its user base.



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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Justin Luth]

You are already getting my code contributions completely free, so IMHO 
you should be satisfied with people making general donations to TDF 
instead of ever nagging them via infobars. So I still think this is a 
bad idea.



Justin


On 4/27/21 5:28 PM, Mike Saunders wrote:

Hello everyone,

In recent versions of LibreOffice, we have an infobar that's
periodically displayed at the top of the screen, including some text and
a link. Currently the configuration is:

* 90 days after installation: show a "Get involved" button

* 180 days after installation: show a "Donate to support our community"
button

We know that the donate infobar results in a lot of donations; people
using LibreOffice for six months are (hopefully!) still satisfied.

So the question is: should we change how often these are shown? We don't
want to "nag" anybody, but at the same time, one bar every three months
isn't much, I think, given that users get a completely free office
suite. IMO we could show the "get involved" bar after two months, and
the "donate" after four -- but what do others think?



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[libreoffice-marketing] LibreOffice get involved and donation infobars - how often to show them?

[Mike Saunders]

Hello everyone,

In recent versions of LibreOffice, we have an infobar that's
periodically displayed at the top of the screen, including some text and
a link. Currently the configuration is:

* 90 days after installation: show a "Get involved" button

* 180 days after installation: show a "Donate to support our community"
button

We know that the donate infobar results in a lot of donations; people
using LibreOffice for six months are (hopefully!) still satisfied.

So the question is: should we change how often these are shown? We don't
want to "nag" anybody, but at the same time, one bar every three months
isn't much, I think, given that users get a completely free office
suite. IMO we could show the "get involved" bar after two months, and
the "donate" after four -- but what do others think?

-- 
Mike Saunders, Marketing and Community Coordinator
The Document Foundation

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