Re: Experiences with these CMSs
El dt 25 de 07 del 2006 a les 11:27 +0100, en/na Thomas Wood va escriure: > I still don't think we should rule > out a good build system that creates static pages. As Greg requests, can the people in favor of keeping the current system make an evaluation of the requirements, as we are doing with the new CMS candidates? http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/CmsRequirements About the current system, I'm specially concerned about: * a comfortable framework for editing content (commits are showstoppers) * full text search (we would need a tool for that) Also about * shall provide feeds (RSS, Atom, etc) and the goals * Own channel for publishing the official news of the GNOME project * Single gateway to all the news sources provided by the GNOME subsites Perhaps we could have all the news related stuff under news.gnome.org, manage them through a CMS fully equipped with feeds features, tags and all the marvel dynamic pages can offer to news related sites (i18n here wouldn't be a problem since news are a one-shot work easy to track, with no further editing/updating) My last but not least concern is the homepage, that shouldn't be static. Au contraire, it should reflect everyday all the activity and life generated in the GNOME project. But static PHP (or something) managed with the current system could provide a vivid homepage operating with the dynamic data spread through the GNOME subsites, isn't it. Perhaps the core reason why I think the current system is not enough is the possibility of having a 'myGNOME' alike experience being a registered user and getting the information and services tailored to my interests. Olav, Anne, Journalist A, user B, ISD C etc would get different homepages and perhaps also different wgo structure. But well, none of this belongs to the current release goals and they are not even agreed goals at all. I don't want to introduce red herrings, nor I want to stop thinking in the big picture. I hope my obsession for migrating to a good CMS is more understandable now. However, I realize the current system evolved could be a reasonably good choice for the strict wgo if we solve the content edition problem. IMO this is more important than the i18n problem, since there is no point having a good solution for translating if you don't have a good solution for publishing first. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Experiences with these CMSs
> The decision must be made also having in mind the context for next > releases. Aspects as user integration with other web tools we are using, > integration of eCommerce/donation system and CRM tool are also relevant. Neither of those things (including the CMS itself) has to be part of how we approach and maintain wgo. I think that's a red herring requirement. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "It is said that there are only six jokes in the world, and I can assure you that we can only broadcast three of them..." - John Watt, the BBC's Head of Variety in the 30's -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Experiences with these CMSs
> I still don't think we should rule out a good build system that creates > static pages. Agree, and current system can be improved significantly to remove a bunch of the autofoo problems (having to specify files to publish, updating fifteen different places when adding a new directory, etc). I'm hoping that the core of wgo is going to be a really slick, very small amount of entry pages for everything else; and in that case, an improved revision control based system would be entirely appropriate. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ "Love never misses the chance to put the boot in." - Kelly, SLOU -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
Hi Dave, On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:54:36 +0200 Dave Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > > Firefox, by the way, was not a product of marketing. It was the > product of the will of two people, made possible by the fact that > it's free software. There was no market analysis, someone said "going > on the internet has to be easier than this", and then made the web > browser *they* wanted to use. > Indeed, there was no market analysis. Usually, there is not -- this is entrepreneurship in the sense of Schumpeter (1883 – 1950): as an exploration of the market possibilities. However, their idea wasn't brand new: People were complaining loudly about the bloated Mozilla Suite back then. For example, there was a small browser-only product before Firefox called K-Meleon, running on Windows. Why was Firefox such a success althought it came later as K-Meleon IIRC? Both were open source, both had a price of zero, both were smaller and faster then the Mozilla suite, and both were easy to install. What was the difference? I can't produce numbers or figures but I believe the hype generated by spreadfirefox was a major factor. > > Isn't that just another way of discounting them as irrelevant? > No, it's not. It just means to put things in perspective. Making it sound otherwise was not my intention. The large majority of people are not going to read the blogs of the engineers for a few month when they want to buy a car; they are studying reviews from independent journalists. And the majority of people is not even wasting their time with studying in-depth technical reviews when they spend 40 Euros on the next technical gagdet, be it a DVD player or a microwave. On the other hand, these people are not willing to read a manuel when they simply want to install additional software on their desktop. Remebering things like this puts statements like the ones of Doc Searls into the right perspective. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
Hi Claus,
Claus Schwarm wrote:
> Open Source is useful in a number of ways but there's no need to
> exaggerate its influence, especially not because some projects
> re-invented a known wheel after they threw the existing one away.
Free software has changed the way software is produced - that is a fact.
> As a very simple example: Traditional marketing theory tells you to
> care about the distribution of your product. Firefox cared about it,
> and made it as simple as possible for its potential consumers:
> it offered a binary package taht worked on most distributions IIRC.
New marketing and traditional marketing (in my mind) are not mutually
exclusive. In fact, new marketing is getting back to the source - it is
going from what was called marketing in the 70s and 80s ("eat the shit
we're shovelling you") to what marketing really should be - listening to
your users, telling their stories to yourself and to others, and making
sure that your software is useful.
Firefox, by the way, was not a product of marketing. It was the product
of the will of two people, made possible by the fact that it's free
software. There was no market analysis, someone said "going on the
internet has to be easier than this", and then made the web browser
*they* wanted to use.
> However, the main point is: Neither Open Source nor the Internet removes
> the basic economic and psychological circumstances that determines
> marketing; they merely change the rules slightly.
s/slightly/radically. Do not underestimate the effect of people talking
to each other at a larger scale than ever before.
> And I already wrote that the points made by Doc Searls seem to fit a
> geek2geek market very well.
Isn't that just another way of discounting them as irrelevant?
Dave.
--
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Re: cms performance
Hi Gergely, http://XXX.gnome.org/stats works for www, developer, planet and foundation. We could probably have this done for selected others too (live, mail, ...?) - we just need to ask. Cheers, Dave. Gergely Nagy wrote: > It just occurred to me, we have to consider CMS performance. Are there > numbers how many hits we get on wgo? Perhaps we need some caching > requirements for the dynamically served pages? > > Greg > -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
cms performance
It just occurred to me, we have to consider CMS performance. Are there numbers how many hits we get on wgo? Perhaps we need some caching requirements for the dynamically served pages? Greg -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
On 7/25/06, Claus Schwarm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've never really understood why so many people seem to listen to Doc > Searls. Maybe, that's because he tells geeks what they would like to > hear? yes, exactly. we geeks love to hear these optimistic things about supposed geeky "revolutions"... just as we like to ignore obvious facts like most of the population not having internet access, most of internet traffic going to the same "old" mass media conglomerates, most of "new" media (blogs etc) not having 1/100 of the "old" media's audience, and most of the biggest companies not giving a damn about this "revolution", but still selling / profiting like crazy (using this "old" marketing that supposedly doesn't work anymore)... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/01/1433206 no matter how hard we geeks like to pretend "old" communication and marketing (the ones we don't like, the ones most of us don't understand) are dead, they're still alive and kicking (and healthy!). last time i checked, uncool non-bloggy microsoft was selling much more than your cool distro of choice. -- Santiago Roza Proyecto Tiny ERP Argentina Departamento I+D - Thymbra [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
Hi, Dave! Open Source is useful in a number of ways but there's no need to exaggerate its influence, especially not because some projects re-invented a known wheel after they threw the existing one away. As a very simple example: Traditional marketing theory tells you to care about the distribution of your product. Firefox cared about it, and made it as simple as possible for its potential consumers: it offered a binary package taht worked on most distributions IIRC. Could you imaging Spreadfirefox's success when they would have offered a source tarball, only? Do you really think, some people blogging about the new, cool browser would have had any effects when people were required to compile Firefox first? But that's how the majority of open source projects deal with distribution. Seems to me traditional marketing considerations are still working: Firefox is one of the most successful open source projects ever. ;-) However, the main point is: Neither Open Source nor the Internet removes the basic economic and psychological circumstances that determines marketing; they merely change the rules slightly. Whether or not one of these technologies influences what you do depends on the market you're in. And I already wrote that the points made by Doc Searls seem to fit a geek2geek market very well. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Map of gnome.org content
Here is a draft map of the current wgo structure: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/CurrentWgoStructure It was generated by running `tree -L 3 -d -I "CVS"` over the gnomeweb-wml module. I will try to create a new version over the actual website directory as soon as gnomeweb-wml is actually buildable again (perhaps someone could fix that too?). This should give some indication about what content we currently have, and shed light on some lesser known locations. Obviously, the projects directory is likely to be moved out of the tree during this revamp, but I have left it in this structure so that people can see the sheer volume of content it contains. I will talk to the sysadmins to see if they have anything to advise on moving the projects directory out of gnomeweb-wml. -Thomas -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: CEBIT Expo 2006 GNOME Booth
> On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 15:29 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: >> > Hi Murray; >> > >> > There's a possibility that we might have a GNOME Booth at CEBIT >> Eurasia, >> > and we might need GNOME Event Box for that event. >> > >> > Expo is 5 days long, and it's possible that we will there for 5 days. >> > Expo starts at 5th of September, and people will start setting their >> > stands starting at 2nd of September. >> > >> > Can you please tell me the availability of GNOME Event Box for that >> > event? If you can ship one to Turkey, can you please tell me the >> average >> > cost and customs information about shipment from Germany to Turkey (if >> > possible)? >> >> Baris, yes the event box seems to be available for that time. But I >> doubt >> that we would be able to ship it to Turkey easily. We would probably >> have >> delays and costs at the border. > It generally does not cost astronomic amounts. And you generally get > items from customs easily (if you list the ingredients completely). (I > had shipments from different countries of Europe before). Is it possible > to ask for UPS, or DHL about such a delivery? UPS have an online calculator. But I need a postcode/Zipcode in Turkey (I guess it is in Istanbul.) > Forgetting about hardware, do you have some booth material handy to ship > to us? Like GNOME Poster, lanyards, t-shirt etc? Shipping them might not > cause any customs problem. There is a big GNOME foot poster, but I am currently trying to get it back from Sven Herzberg. He's a pain. Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: CEBIT Expo 2006 GNOME Booth
On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 15:29 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: > > Hi Murray; > > > > There's a possibility that we might have a GNOME Booth at CEBIT Eurasia, > > and we might need GNOME Event Box for that event. > > > > Expo is 5 days long, and it's possible that we will there for 5 days. > > Expo starts at 5th of September, and people will start setting their > > stands starting at 2nd of September. > > > > Can you please tell me the availability of GNOME Event Box for that > > event? If you can ship one to Turkey, can you please tell me the average > > cost and customs information about shipment from Germany to Turkey (if > > possible)? > > Baris, yes the event box seems to be available for that time. But I doubt > that we would be able to ship it to Turkey easily. We would probably have > delays and costs at the border. It generally does not cost astronomic amounts. And you generally get items from customs easily (if you list the ingredients completely). (I had shipments from different countries of Europe before). Is it possible to ask for UPS, or DHL about such a delivery? Forgetting about hardware, do you have some booth material handy to ship to us? Like GNOME Poster, lanyards, t-shirt etc? Shipping them might not cause any customs problem. > > Feel free to CC marketing-list. > > > Murray Cumming > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.murrayc.com > www.openismus.com > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
Hi Claus, Claus Schwarm wrote: > If Doc Searls' thesis about the viability of traditional marketing is > correct, why are OSS projects that care about this traditional > marketing more successful than those who not? I think you have the cart and the horse in the wrong order there. What has happened is that while maturing, free software has not just changed the way we produce software, it has also changed the way we market it. From spreadfirefox and firefox flicks through the phenomenon of blogging software producers (Sun, 37signals, mozilla (again), but also GNOME, KDE, ...) free software has changed the entire culture of software over the past 10 years, including its marketing. The most successful free software products are the ones who have been leading this change, they are the ones who have clued in to the cluetrain the quickest, and who have added the slightest amount of order and direction to the massive community of users around the projects. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: On breaking the woohoo barrier...thoughts on how GNOME can get great
Hi, On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:11:44 +0100 (BST) Paul Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At the risk provoking a further rant, I suggest having a look at the > latest SuitWatch from Doc Searls, > > http://lists.ssc.com/pipermail/suitwatch/attachments/20060720/b35fd219/attachment.cc > > wherein amongst other things Doc questions whether traditional > marketing is viable any more. > In case you're interested in a different position, here's a quote from Jono Bacon [1]: "Since my entry to the Open Source community, I have seen developers evolve. Back in the early days, developers were largely code heads who cared for nothing but code. Many of these developers wrote awesome code, but produced terrible websites, ugly interfaces and terse documentation." If Doc Searls' thesis about the viability of traditional marketing is correct, why are OSS projects that care about this traditional marketing more successful than those who not? IMHO, in the field of FOSS, marketing is done more often by developers; some of them excel here -- think Firefox --, others don't. Or as Jono puts it: Some evolve! And maybe one should add: Others don't! Stated differently: Why should the GNOME project care about usability if its motivation is not to ease the life of as many people as possible? And is this not marketing? I've never really understood why so many people seem to listen to Doc Searls. Maybe, that's because he tells geeks what they would like to hear? Well, his points may hold within the area of geek2geek products but they should not be generalized -- and the text you pointed to has a strong habit of over-generalization. ;-) Cheers, Claus [1] http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=720 -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Experiences with these CMSs
Gergely Nagy wrote: > Do I mean the current system for managing content? Yes :) > > On Tue, 2006-07-25 at 01:32 +0200, Quim Gil wrote: >> wgo is currently maintained via CVS/SVN editing the pages directly. No >> CMS involved. Do you mean checking the requirements against the current >> system? Not strictly true - there is a (albeit hacky) template system, and of course a system for translating pages (using xslt etc). Of course, since the files live in a version control system, we also have a complete history of who edited what and when. I still don't think we should rule out a good build system that creates static pages. This has the advantage of being very secure, and also high performance. The biggest problem with it at the moment is that the rebuild process isn't very intelligent, so every single file is regenerated, regardless of whether or not it has changed. -Thomas -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
wgo L10n worflow
Danilo and Murray have made clear at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/CmsRequirements that PO files and revision control for translations is a must. This helps approaching the right CMS since it is not a feature not ready out of the box. I've sent those questions to the developers / people that submitted the evaluation of each CMS, in order to know how far are they from the desired features. While we get answers, could the Translation team define what would be the desired workflow, step by step? - Steps when a new page is published. - Steps when an existing page is edited. - Will we be dealing with localization of other materials? I.e. screenshots, screencasts, downloadable files. If so, steps to make. The more you detail the workflow, the better. Much better if the answers are published in a wiki page page. Thank you. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
