Re: About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
Hi, On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:13:55 +0200 Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We need a coordinator for the 2.18 release notes, the sooner the better. Be it Lucas, Dave, Claus or whoever wanting to push this until the release day. I can sent reminder e-mails after the beta releases to a mailing list if someone has a suggestion which one to use. Other than that I see nothing else to do when coordinating this. Do I miss something? Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
On Tue, 2006-09-26 at 11:53 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Do I miss something? Perhaps Dave's original email - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2006-September/msg00096.html - and all what we discussed in the User oriented release notes and About the 2.18 release plans, including my proposal to start working now http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2006-September/msg00082.html I'm talking about a 2.18 release notes coordinator for the whole http://live.gnome.org/ReleaseNotes process, from today until the post-release. Otherwise we risk to forget again and then wake up when it's too late (again). -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://pinguino.tv signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
We need a coordinator for the 2.18 release notes, the sooner the better. Be it Lucas, Dave, Claus or whoever wanting to push this until the release day. I have enough coordinating the wgo revamp and some related goals, sorry. :/ On Tue, 2006-09-12 at 17:15 -0300, Lucas Rocha wrote: Hi, If this is a task everyone see as necessary (I think so), I can do this RoadMap information gathering and organization. Dave, still needing someone to do this? -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://pinguino.tv signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 10:19:18PM +0200, Quim Gil wrote: Of course, we can test it. Let's start another threat where everybody can make suggestion on the goals for the next release. It may be interesting to see whether we can agree on something, and what this will be. :-) As said, some of this exists already and only needs to be explicitly promoted and formalized. There is already http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap - good example of a 100% technical approach to the 2.18 goals. Please be careful with promoting that page. It is there to list things developers/contributors want to fix within GNOME before 2.18. So the person adding something to RoadMap should have the capability to make it happen. The page must not list suggestions or requests by non-developers/contributors. I'd rather have a sane but largely empty RoadMap than something like ThreePointZero. If there's crap on the RoadMap then it should be removed, or clarified. If we make the RoadMap more public then maybe there will be more pressure to make the RoadMap better. Personally, I don't see many problems in it now, though I'd like to keep discussion off that page, for the sake of appearances. Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
Hi Quim, Quim Gil wrote: In short: let's propose to the release team a call for 2.18 goals to the developers. Maybe you missed this mail I sent to desktop-devel-list last week: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-September/msg00114.html I have a file containing all of the MAINTAINERS files in GNOME CVS - unsorted by whether the module is in the GNOME desktop, bindings, admin or platform releases, or isn't in a GNOME release set at all. I will be happy to send this on to someone else who'd like to take on this task - since I have no internet access outside work hours for the next few weeks. I have the file here, but obviously don't want to send it to a public mailing list (we receive enough spam already). Interested parties reply off-list please. The task is fairly simple: * Categorise maintainers by module, categorise modules by GNOME status (see release sets above, and add in GNOME/non-GNOME for the others). Some modules, for example, such as the GIMP, aren't GNOME programs and probably wouldn't appreciate a request for what features are you planning to add - other modules are following the GNOME release cycle, and should be considered part of GNOME, even if they're not in the releases. Rhythmbox comes to mind. * Do your best to avoid double-sending mails to the same person * Send a mail to all the maintainers explaining what we're trying to do briefly and ask them what features they expect to have in the next two release cycles * Aggregate the results at GNOME Roadmap in the wiki, and publish/spread the results. This mail could also be sent to desktop-devel-list, or gnome-announce, but perhaps we should take feedback from thoise sources with a grain of salt when held against the feedback we get from the module maintainers (who will inevitably be driving feature additions). The responses would be listed at http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap . After October 18th [End of new (app) modules proposal period] we extract these goals in another wiki page where release team and marketing team with the supervision of the board triage, group and prioritize 3-5 core goals that will be the basis for a common 2.18 strategy. My idea for this is not so much to try to concentrate or channel efforts to certain core goals (that would be brilliant, but I don't think it's feasible for a first try at this). My main intention is to get module maintainers thinking now about features they'd like to prioritise for 2.18 and 2.20, and to see if we can't get a synergy effect where two maintainers realise that some goal they have is related, and they get working on things together. Why am I asking people to think 2 releases ahead? Because I figure that the next release will always have as it's focus near-term goals (fix the frobnoz dialog to do blingnit), whereas when thinking a year ahead, maintainers will tend to look to more aspirational goals. I'm hoping that the net effect is to help make some of those aspirational goals become a reality. If the release team thinks it's worth, we can start collaborating now. I think this is an excellent way to get out of a funk and generate a positive collaboration between marketing and development. I heartily endorse this product or service. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
Hi, If this is a task everyone see as necessary (I think so), I can do this RoadMap information gathering and organization. Dave, still needing someone to do this? p eace --lucasr 2006/9/12, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Quim, Quim Gil wrote: In short: let's propose to the release team a call for 2.18 goals to the developers. Maybe you missed this mail I sent to desktop-devel-list last week: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-September/msg00114.html I have a file containing all of the MAINTAINERS files in GNOME CVS - unsorted by whether the module is in the GNOME desktop, bindings, admin or platform releases, or isn't in a GNOME release set at all. I will be happy to send this on to someone else who'd like to take on this task - since I have no internet access outside work hours for the next few weeks. I have the file here, but obviously don't want to send it to a public mailing list (we receive enough spam already). Interested parties reply off-list please. The task is fairly simple: * Categorise maintainers by module, categorise modules by GNOME status (see release sets above, and add in GNOME/non-GNOME for the others). Some modules, for example, such as the GIMP, aren't GNOME programs and probably wouldn't appreciate a request for what features are you planning to add - other modules are following the GNOME release cycle, and should be considered part of GNOME, even if they're not in the releases. Rhythmbox comes to mind. * Do your best to avoid double-sending mails to the same person * Send a mail to all the maintainers explaining what we're trying to do briefly and ask them what features they expect to have in the next two release cycles * Aggregate the results at GNOME Roadmap in the wiki, and publish/spread the results. This mail could also be sent to desktop-devel-list, or gnome-announce, but perhaps we should take feedback from thoise sources with a grain of salt when held against the feedback we get from the module maintainers (who will inevitably be driving feature additions). The responses would be listed at http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap . After October 18th [End of new (app) modules proposal period] we extract these goals in another wiki page where release team and marketing team with the supervision of the board triage, group and prioritize 3-5 core goals that will be the basis for a common 2.18 strategy. My idea for this is not so much to try to concentrate or channel efforts to certain core goals (that would be brilliant, but I don't think it's feasible for a first try at this). My main intention is to get module maintainers thinking now about features they'd like to prioritise for 2.18 and 2.20, and to see if we can't get a synergy effect where two maintainers realise that some goal they have is related, and they get working on things together. Why am I asking people to think 2 releases ahead? Because I figure that the next release will always have as it's focus near-term goals (fix the frobnoz dialog to do blingnit), whereas when thinking a year ahead, maintainers will tend to look to more aspirational goals. I'm hoping that the net effect is to help make some of those aspirational goals become a reality. If the release team thinks it's worth, we can start collaborating now. I think this is an excellent way to get out of a funk and generate a positive collaboration between marketing and development. I heartily endorse this product or service. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi Claus, On Sun, 2006-09-10 at 22:28 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: * GNOME does not sell an operating system. * GNOME does not sell computers. * GNOME has no stores to sell stuff. Certainly GNOME does not sell (but see below). Does that mean that Apple (or Microsoft) are in a different league? Certainly not, we want to seduce the same users with similar products. We play on the same league and we need to be good players in our free software combined teams. Also, it just depends on how constrained is your idea of Who Is GNOME. Between the core GNOME stakeholders there are organizations developing operating systems, assembling hardware, selling and deploying computers at large. All they count with us and take part in the GNOME development to achieve their goals. Or is it just a coincidence all the 2.16 progress in performance, graphics, power management, accessibility plus the Mono support? Do Novell, Red Hat, Sun, Nokia, Google etc pay developers to work on GNOME just for fun, without business and marketing plans? We as humble marketing team can just ignore all this until the next Feature Freeze or we can acknowledge the plans people supporting GNOME have and try to design a GNOME strategy based on organization, development and marketing. Doing the latter we become a better player in this league. Apple formulates for ordinary users because it has products for ordinary users. We don't. This is why we need a common understanding of what are our targeted audiences. Now we haven't: some think the release notes should be understood by grandma, some say they are mainly for developers, many think something else. A tale starting like this can't have a happy end. Common understanding means that is shared at least by the release team, the marketing team and the board. Just for the record, I agree with you release notes are not intended to end users. This doesn't mean we can't have impressive release notes, though. * GNOME has no feature-based release schedule. I think Apple's 'release notes' can look that simple because they have a feature-based schedule. 'Release notes' look simple when they are well done, and you can produce good notes of any product following some simple principles. The most basic principle is that organization, development and marketing evolve together during all the production process. If someone thinks this is just bullshit, buzzwords or something not related to GNOME, have a look at successful free software initiatives: OLPC, Nokia 770, Ubuntu, Mozilla, OpenOffice, Mono... Add your candidates and you will surely find organization, development and marketing in place and well integrated. What is delbullshit/del suboptimal is to think that good marketing can be produced as a nice envelope used by an organization to present an already developed product. With all respects this is basically what we are doing with the GNOME releases. Concerning your vision stuff: This looks like bullshit to me. I type vision and you say bullshit. No problem, let's use another word: plan, strategy, perspective... what you want. If what you consider bullshit is something else, please explain. It is not bullshit to integrate the plans of the release team, the marketing team and the GNOME Foundation, sharing targeted audiences and a roadmap. We are already doing some of this, but informally and thanks to people with several hats like Jeff, Federico or Dave. Nothing officially agreed, nothing written, nothing people like Panos, Behdad or myself can look at as general guidelines when contributing to the next GNOME release. Without a common plan the marketing team can continue improvising and patching our mildly interesting release notes, and other marketing products that have almost no use/impact in the GNOME community, our stakeholders or the press. Doing this we will get better release notes and, what is more important, better GNOME releases. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:16:56 +0300 Enver ALTIN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 12:40 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Our release notes should not be a workaround for our ugly 'About' section. This is a bad and useless habit of the GNOME release notes. I can't see why it's a bad habit, I'd love if you could explain. Hi! Three reasons: (1) You should not waste your time to work-around 'bugs', anyway. You should fix the bug if possible. (2) People want the new information quickly - see Inverted Pyramid Format for news stories. [1] (3) The release notes are published on the web: It's easy to make a link to the proper section, and thus not waste the time of people who know what GNOME is. Cheers, Claus [1] http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam/WritingPressReleasesHowto -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 12:57:43 +0200 Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Certainly GNOME does not sell (but see below). Does that mean that Apple (or Microsoft) are in a different league? It just means that there's a need for Apple to write for ordinary users. They interact with consumers directly. GNOME interacts with consumers via third-parties: Either enthusiasts (installing GNOME for grandma), or professionals (installing GNOME for their companies and employees), or via PC computer vendors such as Dell who could install GNOME for their consumers. If you also keep in mind that the diffusion process of Linux in general is just starting to make normal consumers curious, you have all reasons why we should bother about enthusiasts and professionals. This does not mean why should ignore consumers. It just means we should value their current importance appropriately. The 'users == grandma' myth already hurt us several times (think Spacial Nautilus, GNOME Screensaver, etc.) I don't mean that we cannot compete with other desktops. It just means we have no full-control on the whole stack, and we should act accordingly. You may note that Microsoft has no full-control on the complete stack either but it's still more successful than Apple. Also, it just depends on how constrained is your idea of Who Is GNOME. ...and sentences just as these are just the kind of sentences I worried about: The other guys in the stack are not GNOME. They have different and sometimes competeting interests. For example, Linux distributions have a strong tendency to use the desktop as a means to differentiate themselves and thus fragment the user interface. This is not what we want (hopefully). They also have the tendency to use package repositories as a means to bind users to their product althought it's in the interest of Desktop Linux to have something like Autopackage used widely. This is not a big problem right now, but it might get one if we indeed take the wrong approach and start taking *visions* seriously, loosing the view on reality. If someone thinks this is just bullshit, buzzwords or something not related to GNOME, have a look at successful free software initiatives: OLPC, Nokia 770, Ubuntu, Mozilla, OpenOffice, Mono... Add your candidates and you will surely find organization, development and marketing in place and well integrated. This is a perfect example of the problem of *vision*: Who says that organization, development, and marketing are well integrated for the projects you mentioned? How did you measure it? How would I be able to refute such claims, empirically? The problem is you didn't provide a proper definition of well-integrated. Your claim is meaningless althought it sounds good, on the surface. As a counter-example: Firefox, as a product, was developed *without* any marketing in mind. The guy responsible for the Firefox campaign just noted the potential of the existing product, and used it. There was no integrated marketing plan in the beginning. Another counter-example: 'Gfrempgf' was a project with a well-integrated marketing plan. If you now wonder why you never heard about 'Gfrempgf' before... it was a total failure. You see, integrated marketing plans are no gurantee of success althought you small list of projects indicate that it would be. ;-) This is the problem of *visions*: The words consitute their own reality and people stop thinking straight. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:16:56 +0300 Enver ALTIN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 12:40 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Our release notes should not be a workaround for our ugly 'About' section. This is a bad and useless habit of the GNOME release notes. I can't see why it's a bad habit, I'd love if you could explain. Hi! Three reasons: (1) You should not waste your time to work-around 'bugs', anyway. You should fix the bug if possible. If there's a bug then it should of course be fixed. (2) People want the new information quickly - see Inverted Pyramid Format for news stories. [1] (3) The release notes are published on the web: It's easy to make a link to the proper section, and thus not waste the time of people who know what GNOME is. Cheers, Claus [1] http://live.gnome.org/MarketingTeam/WritingPressReleasesHowto Press releases are for a different audience (journalists), who are used to looking for the overview at the end, in the description of the organisations mentioned. But the release notes are read by a much wider public, and by far more people than normally read other GNOME web pages. For those people, it would be very frustrating to read a page about what's new in XYZ without first being told briefly what XYZ is. The description of GNOME was added to solve this problem, and removing the description of GNOME would just bring the problem back. If I've misunderstood what you were talking about, I'm sorry. Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:40:35 +0100 (BST) Joachim Noreiko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Quim's general point is sound: that instead of each stable release being 'well this is the stuff we managed to get done the last 6 months', we should think about trying to plan what each release should aim for and be focussed on at the start of the cycle. Is it? Let's think about it: If your request would be true tomorrow, what goals would you suggest for the next release? On what reasons would you suggest these concrete goals? Why will your suggestion be better than the many suggestions made in bugzilla? Next, do you even have enought overview on the rather extensive GNOME platform? I know I don't. I need to google for 'screenreader' because I had no clue what this is. And I'm sure I have no clue what makes a screenreader a great product. This is another thing: I'm not even sure if we could come up with any real good ideas. You need good and regular brainstormings with lots of background material to create great product ideas. Of course, we can test it. Let's start another threat where everybody can make suggestion on the goals for the next release. It may be interesting to see whether we can agree on something, and what this will be. :-) Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:53:38 +0200 (CEST) Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Press releases are for a different audience (journalists), who are used to looking for the overview at the end, in the description of the organisations mentioned. I think this is a misunderstanding. The Inverted Pyramid Format is used by journalists to write newspaper articles -- in other words: for a general audience. Check the Süddeutsche Zeitung or the Times: They don't write like this: Ferrari is a car manufacturer located in Italy who got famous for producing red sports cars. One of their most famous models was the Testarossa, and they just released version 2.0. Most readers would probably stop reading after the first sentence. It simply wastes their time. Journalists thus write like this: Ferrari just released version 2.0 of their most famous Testarossa model. Specialized in produceing red sports cars, Ferrari is located in Italy. The first version is more frustrating for people: They cannot skip to the interesting part. But the main point is: 99.9% of the release notes readers know what GNOME is, I'm sure. Think again about the Ferrari example: Imaging they made a version 2.0 of their Testarossa, and published the release notes on their webpage. First: Would you have known about it? Probably not if you're not already interested in Ferrari. You wouldn't visit their webpage daily. Second: How would you have known about it? Probably by reading car magazines, and you would know what Ferrari is if you're already reading car magazines. Third: Would you care to read Ferrari's release notes if you are not interested in Ferrari in any way? No, because information about Ferrari's new model is completely useless to you. You'd just be wasting your time. And people in general are smart enought to ignore stuff that's not interesting to them. Thus, I'm sure that 99.99% of release notes readers have a sufficiently close idea of what GNOME is, and for the remaining 0.01%, we can provide a link to the 'About' section, somewhere in the first paragraph of the notes, without boring all others. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 18:23 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: But the main point is: 99.9% of the release notes readers know what GNOME is, I'm sure. I'm not sure about that. I'd say it's maybe 50%. New sites post GNOME 2.16 is out stories, and people follow the link. They know it's something new, and they know it's important (otherwise it wouldn't be on the new sites), but they don't know what it is. For the moment, release notes/announcements are the major thing that gets people to our site (I think this can be backed-up by the statistics). So we need to get that first-contact right, even more than we do now. Hence some of my suggestions for improving the start pages: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen/ReleaseNotes#head-4d574ff2e3f033cf3bc18d9fbcefe2fbd910881d [snip] Thus, I'm sure that 99.99% of release notes readers have a sufficiently close idea of what GNOME is, and for the remaining 0.01%, we can provide a link to the 'About' section, somewhere in the first paragraph of the notes, without boring all others. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
About the 2.18 release plans (was Re: User oriented release notes)
In short: let's propose to the release team a call for 2.18 goals to the developers. The responses would be listed at http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap . After October 18th [End of new (app) modules proposal period] we extract these goals in another wiki page where release team and marketing team with the supervision of the board triage, group and prioritize 3-5 core goals that will be the basis for a common 2.18 strategy. In the meantime the marketing team agrees on the targeted audiences and the 2.18 materials we will produce. This way once the 2.18 core goals are agreed we will already know what to do with them. Expanded: On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 17:00 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Claus, the response to a development process without marketers is not a marketing process without developers. The basic answer to all your points is that working together we will get to better results than working alone in each corner. If your request would be true tomorrow, what goals would you suggest for the next release? This question is to be addressed primarily to the release team and the projects involved in the development of GNOME 2.18. Many of them have some plans in mind. Then the release team, the marketing team and the board can triage ideas, group plans, sort priorities and end up with 3-5 core goals. On what reasons would you suggest these concrete goals? I don't think that people not involved in the development process have much to suggest in a first round. Developers know what is going on and they have surely suggestions. Non-developers may be useful making suggestions during the next rounds, based on the raw initial ideas and their own perspectives (marketing, Foundation, and so on). Why will your suggestion be better than the many suggestions made in bugzilla? Nobody is talking about better or worst suggestions. We are talking about planning a release with a common strategy and a wider perspective. Developers know what are the good suggestions in bugzilla, I trust in their capacity of picking them as goals as much as I trust in their capacity of forgetting about bugzilla and coming up with new ideas. They do the first selection of goals. Next, do you even have enought overview on the rather extensive GNOME platform? I know I don't. There must be only a handful of GNOME contributors having a global overview of the whole project, and they are usually pretty busy in the last weeks of release. If we need to know what is a screenreader in order to present it in the release notes, we better be part of the initial brainstorming so we know about all the novelties, who is behind them and why are they incorporated to the release. Of course, we can test it. Let's start another threat where everybody can make suggestion on the goals for the next release. It may be interesting to see whether we can agree on something, and what this will be. :-) As said, some of this exists already and only needs to be explicitly promoted and formalized. There is already http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap - good example of a 100% technical approach to the 2.18 goals. There is more in the air: Vincent: I'd go with eyecandy, but I think it's important to note that it's an ongoing work, and that more will come in 2.18. Jeff: Our brilliant performance hackers are still busily carving big chunks out of our memory and CPU footprint, and I expect we’ll see more great results in 2.18. In particular, I’m looking forward to some eye-opening laptop power consumption graphs in the 2.18 release notes. And more that must be in mailing lists, irc chats, private emails, private thoughts... If the release team thinks it's worth, we can start collaborating now. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi :o) On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 12:57 +0200, Quim Gil wrote: On Sun, 2006-09-10 at 22:28 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Apple formulates for ordinary users because it has products for ordinary users. We don't. This is why we need a common understanding of what are our targeted audiences. Now we haven't: some think the release notes should be understood by grandma, some say they are mainly for developers, many think something else. A tale starting like this can't have a happy end. Common understanding means that is shared at least by the release team, the marketing team and the board. Just for the record, I agree with you release notes are not intended to end users. This doesn't mean we can't have impressive release notes, though. Might I suggest slightly categorised release notes, that tend to a few different types of visitors. Say start with an overview, that in the know users could skip, continue with new features and go on to the technical stuff, finishing with a link to the press release, say. That way knowledgeable users can skip the overview, and people who are not interested in the technical side can stop reading when it gets too complicated for them. As I probably made clear earlier, the current notes are clearly not intended for end users. That they are not catered for at the time of a release seems a shame to me. I think it would be very interesting to create a sort of event around a release, to attract new devotees. Indeed such a thing already exists, with press articles, the announcement on wgo etc. (ignoring those who even have parties as they are already quite devote enough :) I think it would be a great shame not to profit from the enthusiasm of those visiting the site as an effect of the release (from a news site, say) to promote our latest and greatest. Murray claims a GNOME release to be the major thing that gets people to our site, if that is true, and I greatly suspect it is it would seem a shame not to try to make the most of the whole spectrum of visitors - so many potential users. If the notes are not for the end user, perhaps we should provide a section along the lines discover our latest offering for them, I'm note sure why this should be separate from the notes though. Perhaps something to consider may be that managers and other decision makers can be even more lost than grandmas :o) I'm going out on a limb here, I may be completely wrong - Dilbert has never failed me yet however :o) This talk about the release notes has me wondering if wgo is aimed at end users at all, should we just have a link to the Ubuntu website for example ? (That's a mix of joke, sarcasm and curiosity about what people will answer :) Love, Karderio. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi :o) On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 16:31 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: (1) You should not waste your time to work-around 'bugs', anyway. You should fix the bug if possible. (2) People want the new information quickly - see Inverted Pyramid Format for news stories. [1] (3) The release notes are published on the web: It's easy to make a link to the proper section, and thus not waste the time of people who know what GNOME is. Couldn't agree more on all these three points, thanks for making that clear :) You are correct to say journalists do not start articles by describing the subject when it is obviously known to the reader, such as Ferrari, China or the planet Earth. Of course when writing on a less known subject, a newspaper article will invariably inform the reader early on. As much as I would like GNOME to be as universally renowned as Ferrari or China, I'm afraid it is still far from it. Again, it boils down to who we are writing for, plus perhaps the fact that the definition of GNOME can be elusive. Artful is the way to start the article gently for the uninitiated without boring the rest. Love, Karderio. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
--- Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Integrate marketing and business visions with the technical vision that is guiding the 2.18 release. Since day zero. snip Someone needs to think what these bodies need and how the next release is going to help them, be useful to them. I think you're absolutely right. But there is this perception that developers on Free projects work only on what they want to work on and only on what's fun, and that therefore, for example, you can't demand that bug X be fixed... I know this is the sort of rhetoric you see on slashdot, and therefore a little bit exaggerated. But I do get a general feeling that developers resent any outside intervention, whether that's by marketing, documentation, or usability people. This is bad for GNOME. Bugs don't get fixed, features are developed in isolation without reference to the rest of the dektop interface, and the big decisions get deferred indefinitely. - Planning and production of the release notes following the release cycle. We start deciding who are our audiences, what we want to give them, how we present the information to them. We don't need to wait a feature freeze to go ahead with this. The same way that I want to be able to start writing documention for new features before freeze... ;) ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
El dg 10 de 09 del 2006 a les 07:56 +0100, en/na Joachim Noreiko va escriure: But there is this perception that developers on Free projects work only on what they want to work on and only on what's fun Like Claus says, Yeah, nice story. ;-) :) The GNOME release cycle has rules, developers are free to join the release but if they do, they follow the commonly agreed rules. This is not entirely true either for many developers hired by GNOME stakeholders i.e. advisory board companies. Note that these companies have technical, marketing and business visions integrated, their good developers know and integrate these visions in their work. , and that therefore, for example, you can't demand that bug X be fixed... I'm not saying this either. Demand a bug to be fixed is a technical decision and falls into the technical process, no marketing and business people can come and decide that (unless they solve the bug with their own hands). Very different than agree from the technical, marketing and business perspectives that Feature X is a priority for the next GNOME release and therefore all the related bugs have a priority, inviting the contributors to concentrate efforts there. developers resent any outside intervention, whether that's by marketing, documentation, or usability people. In GNOME we have a goal: to create a computing platform for use by the general public that is completely free software. Anybody working for that goal can't be perceived as outside intervention. You mean the developers that also resent about user feedback at all? :) I have the impression that thanks to many good GNOME developers, this resentment is clearly tagged as uncool and unprofessional. Not good enough for a official GNOME release. and the big decisions get deferred indefinitely. It is much easier to agree on big decisions when there is a common vision and roadmap. The problem is that having a common vision and a roadmap is in itself a big decision. :) Small decisions + iterations are a good approach to big decisions. We can have small decisions to integrate marketing and business visions in the technical vision of GNOME 2.18. Then we improve in the next release. -- Quim Gil /// http://desdeamericaconamor.org | http://guadec.org signature.asc Description: Això és una part d'un missatge, signada digitalment -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi, Quim! You didn't mention the obvious differences of GNOME and Apple: * GNOME does not sell an operating system. * GNOME does not sell computers. * GNOME has no stores to sell stuff. Apple formulates for ordinary users because it has products for ordinary users. We don't. The next thing you didn't mention is: * GNOME has no feature-based release schedule. I think Apple's 'release notes' can look that simple because they have a feature-based schedule. We need to ship half-implemented stuff every second release. Unless you manage to change the release schedule, it will remain that way. Concerning your vision stuff: This looks like bullshit to me. Maybe I've seen to many clueless marketing people speak like that, and my impression is wrong. However, it looks like bullshit. Sorry. :-( But I share your point that it would be nice to have more developers report about their improvements earlier. Maybe we should sent a mail to ddl for every Beta release, reminding them to fill out the wiki page? Together with a contact address for questions, that would probably help tremendously. Cheers, Claus [1] http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/articles/why_care/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
--- Claus Schwarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Concerning your vision stuff: This looks like bullshit to me. Maybe I've seen to many clueless marketing people speak like that, and my impression is wrong. However, it looks like bullshit. Sorry. :-( I think that 'vision' is one of those buzzwords that brings out the fear of marketing bullshit in many of us. ;) But Quim's general point is sound: that instead of each stable release being 'well this is the stuff we managed to get done the last 6 months', we should think about trying to plan what each release should aim for and be focussed on at the start of the cycle. Despite my reservations that it may be hard to bring about this sort of change, I agree with it :) ___ All new Yahoo! Mail The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use. - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 12:40 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Our release notes should not be a workaround for our ugly 'About' section. This is a bad and useless habit of the GNOME release notes. I can't see why it's a bad habit, I'd love if you could explain. Thanks, -- Enver signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi, On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 20:42:04 -0400 Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Compare and contrast our notes with: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ (ignore the videos, look at the text, what they are bragging about, etc.) Luis You're comparing apples with oranges. Our release notes should not be a workaround for our ugly 'About' section. This is a bad and useless habit of the GNOME release notes. Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi, On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:08:09 +0200 karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What could take the edge off the buzz a user should be feeling when reading about GNOME ? Compilation options is one, links to technical fd.o standards another, there's the code cleanups section... Not to say these are bad, I don't mind them one bit - but telling a potential user about compiling even before he has seen the contraption can hardly promote it... I believe you're making a common error: You think in terms of developers vs. users. This is misleading. Better think of (ordinary) users, enthusiasts, and professionals. Our notes were written with enthusiasts and professionals in mind. We ignored ordinary users because they don't read release notes. Never. If they do, they are already enthusiasts. Also note that we cannot hide the technical details of how Linux works. There's simple no way to prevent a user running into 'compiling' stuff. This is due to the distribution system of Linux and has nothing to do with GNOME. The other criticism I could raise is a lack of at least one screenshot of the entire GNOME desktop. [snip] Perhaps the criticisms I have directed at the release notes are not meant for them at all. The notes in fact being an excellent interim, bolstering the About GNOME section, which manages to say piles about GNOME's goals without ever saying what it does or what it looks like. Yes, indeed. The release notes are not the 'About' section of GNOME, and they should not be. The first page indicates differently but it is simply a bug. We do have screenhots on www.gnome.org -- theoretically, at least. There's no need to have one in the notes, too. The ones we have just need to be linked in the 'About' section. Btw, a 'presenting GNOME' section was started two years ago called the tour. It's nearly finished in CVS but it needs somebody doing screenshots. (And another one removing this docbook format.) Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
On 9/9/06, Andreas Nilsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Luis! Isn't Apples equivalent of our release notes more likely this? http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html And yeah, they kick our asses in catchy copy-writing here too :) That is more equivalent, but I guess I'm suggesting that perhaps we should get the first (why should you use us at all?) right before we work very hard on 'why should you use this particular version.' Something to think about, at any rate. Luis I agree that we're a bit too techy from time to time though, even for the target audience people-who-reads-computer-magazines. - Andreas Luis Villa wrote: Compare and contrast our notes with: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ (ignore the videos, look at the text, what they are bragging about, etc.) Luis On 9/8/06, karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi :o) I just took a second look at the 2.16 release notes[1]. Although they were a very interesting read, on occasion they came over as perhaps a little too technical, leaving maybe the ghost of the impression that GNOME could be a desktop by devs for devs. Please don't get me wrong, the notes are a fine job, but somehow the buzz the end user should be feeling is missing. What could take the edge off the buzz a user should be feeling when reading about GNOME ? Compilation options is one, links to technical fd.o standards another, there's the code cleanups section... Not to say these are bad, I don't mind them one bit - but telling a potential user about compiling even before he has seen the contraption can hardly promote it... The other criticism I could raise is a lack of at least one screenshot of the entire GNOME desktop. A couple of suggestions I would advance this perceived problem of mine would either be to relegate anything un-soft-and-fluffy to a developers section, or create a completely Presenting GNOME section elsewhere, full of much appreciated, soft fluffy topics for users. Perhaps the criticisms I have directed at the release notes are not meant for them at all. The notes in fact being an excellent interim, bolstering the About GNOME section, which manages to say piles about GNOME's goals without ever saying what it does or what it looks like. Love, Karderio. [1] http://www.gnome.org/start/2.16/notes/C/index.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi :o) On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 13:10 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Hi, On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:08:09 +0200 karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What could take the edge off the buzz a user should be feeling when reading about GNOME ? Compilation options is one, links to technical fd.o standards another, there's the code cleanups section... Not to say these are bad, I don't mind them one bit - but telling a potential user about compiling even before he has seen the contraption can hardly promote it... I believe you're making a common error: You think in terms of developers vs. users. This is misleading. Better think of (ordinary) users, enthusiasts, and professionals. Our notes were written with enthusiasts and professionals in mind. We ignored ordinary users because they don't read release notes. Never. If they do, they are already enthusiasts. Perhaps, but in any case we still need to cater for the lowest common denominator : grandma :) Also note that we cannot hide the technical details of how Linux works. There's simple no way to prevent a user running into 'compiling' stuff. This is due to the distribution system of Linux and has nothing to do with GNOME. The other criticism I could raise is a lack of at least one screenshot of the entire GNOME desktop. [snip] Perhaps the criticisms I have directed at the release notes are not meant for them at all. The notes in fact being an excellent interim, bolstering the About GNOME section, which manages to say piles about GNOME's goals without ever saying what it does or what it looks like. Yes, indeed. The release notes are not the 'About' section of GNOME, and they should not be. The first page indicates differently but it is simply a bug. Maybe technical details cannot be hidden completely (on the website), although I'm not sure why. I'll reformulate the problem I see : user comes to website, the best, easily accessible, information about GNOME is the release notes : talk of complication makes him worried. As you say there is a bug :) What is the solution, to make the about section relevant and make it more prominent than the release notes ? We do have screenhots on www.gnome.org -- theoretically, at least. There's no need to have one in the notes, too. The ones we have just need to be linked in the 'About' section. Theoretically maybe, the fact is that there are none that can be easily accessed (AFAICS). One shot per version/release notes can't be completely useless, at least serving to make them pretty :) (the macOS release notes Luis mentionned have a very nice shot at the top of them). Btw, a 'presenting GNOME' section was started two years ago called the tour. It's nearly finished in CVS but it needs somebody doing screenshots. (And another one removing this docbook format.) Where ? Is this meant for the website or shipping with a release ? Love, Karderio. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi, On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 15:22:15 +0200 karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps, but in any case we still need to cater for the lowest common denominator : grandma :) Well, as I said previously: Grandma's are never going to read our release notes, unless their are interested in technical details which would make this particular class of grandmas enthusiasts. This grandma stuff is a myth spread by usability guys without proper marketing education. ;-) Maybe technical details cannot be hidden completely (on the website), although I'm not sure why. I meant it the other way around: There's no need to hide it. People who want to deal with Linux today, need to be able to figure out what 'compiling' means. That's due to the distribution system and the attitude of too many developers who don't bother about providing distribution-independent binary packages on their homepages. Additionally, if you hide the information, you will just make some people post it somewhere. That means other peope will have to search *everywhere* to find this necessary information. Do you know how much time I spend searching the web which graphic processor owners will probably be able to test this Metacity 3D capabilities? The answers is: Too long! ;-) You may not noted it but experienced journalists like Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols picked up what you may consider too technical information in their coverage, see here: http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS6261033378.html This tells me that we have done something right. I'll reformulate the problem I see : user comes to website, the best, easily accessible, information about GNOME is the release notes : talk of complication makes him worried. Yeah, nice story. ;-) But a myth. Nobody will think that the release notes are the most easily accesible information about GNOME. A real beginner will not even know what 'Release notes' are! The true story goes like this: User comes to GNOME web site, thinks 'Hey, this stuff sound interesting!', clicks 'download' and then wonders where the button is to make the download start. As you say there is a bug :) What is the solution, to make the about section relevant and make it more prominent than the release notes ? Currently, the notes use an opt-out solution: We present a complete page of irrelevant stuff for 95% of readers, but you can skip it by clicking here. We should use an opt-in procedure: Here are the great changes or our new release, and if you have no clue what GNOME is, click here. Next time. Where ? Is this meant for the website or shipping with a release ? See yourself. Unfinished version here: http://www.gnome.org/tour/C/index.html Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Hi :o) I really don't know how to argue this any better, it just seems to be becoming silly. I will simply restate that to effectively promote GNOME through our website, things should be presented in a simple non technical way, technical information being presented in separate sections for those who wish for such information. Things should presented in ways to get potential users interested, as is done on big company websites. As previously mentioned, compare and contrast with : http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html Love, Karderio. On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 17:01 +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote: Hi, On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 15:22:15 +0200 karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps, but in any case we still need to cater for the lowest common denominator : grandma :) Well, as I said previously: Grandma's are never going to read our release notes, unless their are interested in technical details which would make this particular class of grandmas enthusiasts. This grandma stuff is a myth spread by usability guys without proper marketing education. ;-) Maybe technical details cannot be hidden completely (on the website), although I'm not sure why. I meant it the other way around: There's no need to hide it. People who want to deal with Linux today, need to be able to figure out what 'compiling' means. That's due to the distribution system and the attitude of too many developers who don't bother about providing distribution-independent binary packages on their homepages. Additionally, if you hide the information, you will just make some people post it somewhere. That means other peope will have to search *everywhere* to find this necessary information. Do you know how much time I spend searching the web which graphic processor owners will probably be able to test this Metacity 3D capabilities? The answers is: Too long! ;-) You may not noted it but experienced journalists like Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols picked up what you may consider too technical information in their coverage, see here: http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS6261033378.html This tells me that we have done something right. I'll reformulate the problem I see : user comes to website, the best, easily accessible, information about GNOME is the release notes : talk of complication makes him worried. Yeah, nice story. ;-) But a myth. Nobody will think that the release notes are the most easily accesible information about GNOME. A real beginner will not even know what 'Release notes' are! The true story goes like this: User comes to GNOME web site, thinks 'Hey, this stuff sound interesting!', clicks 'download' and then wonders where the button is to make the download start. As you say there is a bug :) What is the solution, to make the about section relevant and make it more prominent than the release notes ? Currently, the notes use an opt-out solution: We present a complete page of irrelevant stuff for 95% of readers, but you can skip it by clicking here. We should use an opt-in procedure: Here are the great changes or our new release, and if you have no clue what GNOME is, click here. Next time. Where ? Is this meant for the website or shipping with a release ? See yourself. Unfinished version here: http://www.gnome.org/tour/C/index.html Cheers, Claus -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
User oriented release notes
Hi :o) I just took a second look at the 2.16 release notes[1]. Although they were a very interesting read, on occasion they came over as perhaps a little too technical, leaving maybe the ghost of the impression that GNOME could be a desktop by devs for devs. Please don't get me wrong, the notes are a fine job, but somehow the buzz the end user should be feeling is missing. What could take the edge off the buzz a user should be feeling when reading about GNOME ? Compilation options is one, links to technical fd.o standards another, there's the code cleanups section... Not to say these are bad, I don't mind them one bit - but telling a potential user about compiling even before he has seen the contraption can hardly promote it... The other criticism I could raise is a lack of at least one screenshot of the entire GNOME desktop. A couple of suggestions I would advance this perceived problem of mine would either be to relegate anything un-soft-and-fluffy to a developers section, or create a completely Presenting GNOME section elsewhere, full of much appreciated, soft fluffy topics for users. Perhaps the criticisms I have directed at the release notes are not meant for them at all. The notes in fact being an excellent interim, bolstering the About GNOME section, which manages to say piles about GNOME's goals without ever saying what it does or what it looks like. Love, Karderio. [1] http://www.gnome.org/start/2.16/notes/C/index.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Compare and contrast our notes with: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ (ignore the videos, look at the text, what they are bragging about, etc.) Luis On 9/8/06, karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi :o) I just took a second look at the 2.16 release notes[1]. Although they were a very interesting read, on occasion they came over as perhaps a little too technical, leaving maybe the ghost of the impression that GNOME could be a desktop by devs for devs. Please don't get me wrong, the notes are a fine job, but somehow the buzz the end user should be feeling is missing. What could take the edge off the buzz a user should be feeling when reading about GNOME ? Compilation options is one, links to technical fd.o standards another, there's the code cleanups section... Not to say these are bad, I don't mind them one bit - but telling a potential user about compiling even before he has seen the contraption can hardly promote it... The other criticism I could raise is a lack of at least one screenshot of the entire GNOME desktop. A couple of suggestions I would advance this perceived problem of mine would either be to relegate anything un-soft-and-fluffy to a developers section, or create a completely Presenting GNOME section elsewhere, full of much appreciated, soft fluffy topics for users. Perhaps the criticisms I have directed at the release notes are not meant for them at all. The notes in fact being an excellent interim, bolstering the About GNOME section, which manages to say piles about GNOME's goals without ever saying what it does or what it looks like. Love, Karderio. [1] http://www.gnome.org/start/2.16/notes/C/index.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: User oriented release notes
Note that we can't possibly make something as attracting like that, and the reasons have nothing to do with the marketing team. Those notes focus on what the user can do. Gnome as it is with only gnome can do all the standard stuff, and that isn't impressive. We can't put gimp, nor abiword, nor gnumeric, nor jekoshier (or however it shoould be written), nor Transmission, nor Inkscape, nor dvdstyler, nor devede, nor gnome baker. Everything we can do is to showcase a basic desktop system, whose more exiting features for newcomers would be... hhmm.. clean, nice and I-do-not-get-in-your-way interface, the deskbar, tomboy, the posibility of changing the gtk style, icons, fonts, window border or whatever, straightforward preferences and ekiga... and that would be all, anything else is what the user espects of any system. It is attracting, but definetely not as much as saying Make high-quality websites, photo books, DVDs, songs, slideshows, music CDs, calendars, cards, prints, podcasts, music videos, documentaries, and more. when gnome doesn't ship with the tools needed to do it, even when they're available (and not, I'm not saying gnome should mantain all that software and release it under the same release cycle as gnome, nobody would be happy about that). One thing we could do is to create some new brand, a bundle, collection or something like that, so we can say something along the lines of With ASDF, built on the shoulders of the gnome desktop you can do pretty much whatever you want, from editing the video of your vacation, to make the homework in a cooperative way with your co-workers in the same document, or keep the accounting of your home!... with ASDF there's nothing you can't do On 9/8/06, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Compare and contrast our notes with:http://www.apple.com/getamac/(ignore the videos, look at the text, what they are bragging about, etc.)LuisOn 9/8/06, karderio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi :o) I just took a second look at the 2.16 release notes[1]. Although they were a very interesting read, on occasion they came over as perhaps a little too technical, leaving maybe the ghost of the impression that GNOME could be a desktop by devs for devs. Please don't get me wrong, the notes are a fine job, but somehow the buzz the end user should be feeling is missing. What could take the edge off the buzz a user should be feeling when reading about GNOME ? Compilation options is one, links to technical fd.o standards another, there's the code cleanups section... Not to say these are bad, I don't mind them one bit - but telling a potential user about compiling even before he has seen the contraption can hardly promote it... The other criticism I could raise is a lack of at least one screenshot of the entire GNOME desktop. A couple of suggestions I would advance this perceived problem of mine would either be to relegate anything un-soft-and-fluffy to a developers section, or create a completely Presenting GNOME section elsewhere, full of much appreciated, soft fluffy topics for users. Perhaps the criticisms I have directed at the release notes are not meant for them at all. The notes in fact being an excellent interim, bolstering the About GNOME section, which manages to say piles about GNOME's goals without ever saying what it does or what it looks like. Love, Karderio. [1] http://www.gnome.org/start/2.16/notes/C/index.html -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list --marketing-list mailing listmarketing-list@gnome.orghttp://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- //Phrodo_00//Javier Aravena ClaramuntEstudiante ingenirería civil en informáticaSantiago de Chile.Blog: phrodo00.openfrogs.comMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
