[Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/11/13 12:45 AM, John Wesley wrote: Ah...but when Castro sent troops to Ethiopia, or when he endorsed the invasion of Czechoslovakiawasn't Cuba towing [on] the Moscow line? I think that Fidel's refusal to say anything about the repression of the student movement in Mexico around this time was far worse. But people have to remember that when a revolutionary government is facing a series of choices imposed on it by global imperialist hegemons, it will frequently act in a realpolitik fashion. I just got a new copy of E.H. Carr's 3 volumes on the Russian Revolution to replace the one I sold to a comrade about 7 years ago. It is a very useful resource. From volume 3: The indigenous Turkish movement of sympathy for communism which grew up in 1919 was mainly of peasant origin and was rooted in agrarian discontents. Its overt expression was the creation of a multitude of local Soviets which became for a time the effective organs of local government. The movement was fostered by Kemal, partly because its loyalty to the nationalist cause was fervent and unquestioned, and partly because an outlet was required for the real social and agrarian discontent represented by it. In the spring of 1920 it took organized shape in the creation of a Green Army which, recruited from the small and landless peasants, formed a major part of the national forces. The principal sponsors of the movement at this time, Hakki Behic and Hikmet, were ” easterners ” in respect of Turkish foreign policy and are both said to have been convinced Marxists. A somewhat farcical sequel of these proceedings was an officially sponsored Turkish communist party bearing the name of the ” Green Apple “. Hakki Behic was its leader; and according to a subsequent statement of a Turkish delegate to Comintern it was composed mainly of ”high officials and intellectuals “. Meanwhile the most successful leader of the Green Army was Edhem, a soldier of fortune who, while professing allegiance to Kemal, threatened to become a Turkish Makhno. The Green Army reached the summit of its success in the summer of 1920. But in September 1920 — the same month in which action against Armenia was decided on — Kemal felt strong enough to put his house in order by removing a potential source of rivalry or insubordination, and issued a decree dissolving it. The order was not obeyed, and Kemal temporized. In November he appointed as Turkish representative in Moscow Ali Fuad, an army commander whom he wanted to get out of the way, and made an offer to Edhem to accompany the mission. Edhem refused; and in December, when the campaign against Armenia had been successfully concluded, Kemal finally decided to take action against the Green Army. On January 6, 1921, Edhem was routed and fled to the Greeks, and what was left of his movement was then quickly mopped up. The suppression of Edhem was immediately followed by drastic steps against the Turkish communists. Suphi was seized by unknown agents at Erzerum, and on January 28, 1921, together with sixteen other leading Turkish communists, thrown into the sea off Trebizond — the traditional Turkish method of discreet execution. It was some time before their fate was discovered. Chicherin is said to have addressed enquiries about them to the Kemalist government and to have received the reply that they might have succumbed to an accident at sea. But this unfortunate affair was not allowed to affect the broader considerations on which the growing amity between Kemal and Moscow was founded. For the first, though not for the last, time it was demonstrated that governments could deal drastically with their national communist parties without forfeiting the goodwill of the Soviet Government, if that were earned on other grounds. --- Of course, all of this was taking place during the time before the Comintern was tainted by Stalinism. Not only were the Turkish Communists sacrificed, so were the Armenians. Now, for all I know, Wesley has about as much use for the early Soviet Union's foreign policy as he does for Cuba's. As I have so often noticed in my arguments with idealists in the Marxist left, they compare actual state powers against the Platonic ideal they have in their mind. Reality is bound to lose under such conditions. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/9/13 2:42 PM, audrada...@aol.com wrote I have genuine exchange with my boss, too. He's a truly nice guy. He often listens to my suggestions and occasionally follows them. And if I cross him in any serious way, he would fire me in a hot second. This is bullshit. No, what is bullshit is wasting time with superficial jibes like this on a mailing list with 1500 subscribers worldwide trying to understand Cuban society, the politics of their own country, or problems facing the left generally. One of the reasons I blog is that it allows me to organize my thoughts, do research, and write in the fashion of the Russian left of the early 1900s. I don't say that I am the equal of a Preobrezhensky or a Bukharin but when I read their articles on www.marxists.org, I see how high a level their conversations and debates were conducted at. I established Marxmail in 1998 with the hope that it would encourage serious debate among Marxists. The longer it is around, the more pessimistic I become. I think comrades participate in these debates as if they were opportunities to wise off. I almost never see anybody writing anything of substance, or citing scholarly material. It is enough to make me consider flushing it down the toilet. Edward Boorstein, The Economic Transformation of Cuba: By October 1960 most of this administrative and technical personnel had left Cuba. The Americans and some of the Cubans were withdrawn by the home companies of the plants for which they worked, or left of their own accord: they found themselves unable to understand the struggle with the United States, unwilling to accept the new way of life that was opening up before them. The Revolutionary Government had to keep the factories and mines going only with a minute proportion of the usual trained and experienced personnel. A few examples can perhaps best give an idea of what happened. Five of us from the Ministry of Foreign Commerce, on a business visit, were being taken through the Moa nickel plant. In the electric power station--itself a large plant--which served the rest of the complex, our guide was an enthusiastic youngster of about 22. He did an excellent job as guide, but his modesty as well as his age deceived us and only toward the end of our tour did we realize that he was not some sort of apprentice engineer or assistant--he was in charge of the plant. I noticed that he spoke English well and asked him if he had lived in the States. Sure, he answered, I studied engineering at Tulane. As soon as he finished, he had come back to work for the Revolution and had been placed in charge of the power plant. In another part of the complex, the head of one of the key departments was a black Cuban who had about four years of elementary school education. He had been an observant worker and when engineer of his department left he knew what to do--although he didn't really know why, or how his department related to the others in the plant. Now to learn why, he was plugging away at his minimo tecnico manual--one of the little mimeographed booklets which had been distributed throughout industry to improve people's knowledge of their jobs. And so on throughout the Moa plant. The engineer in charge of the whole enterprise, who had a long cigar in his hand and his feet on the desk as he gave us his criticisms of the way our Ministry was handling his import requirements, was about 28 years old. His chief assistants were about the same age and some of them were obviously not engineers. Yet Moa was made to function. Even laymen are struck with its delicate beauty--a testament to American engineering skill. 'Es una joya'--it's a jewel, say the Cubans. It is much more impressive than the larger but older nickel plant at Nicaro. Shortly after the nickel ore is clawed out of the earth by giant Bucyrus power shovels, it a pulverized and mixed with water to form a mixture 55 percent and 45 percent water. From then on all materials movement is liquids, in pipes, automatically controlled. The liquids move through the several miles of the complex, in and out of the separate plants, with the reducers, mixing vats, etc. Everything depends on innumerable delicate instruments, and on unusual materials, resistant to exceptions high temperatures and various kinds of chemical reaction. The margin for improvising in repairing or replacing parts is small-much smaller than in the mechanized rather than the automated Nicaro plant. Yet the Moa plant was in operation when we were there: two of the main production lines were going-and all four would have been going jf it had not been necessary to cannibalize two lines to get replacement parts for the other two. Except that Moa was an
[Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis decries the lack of analytical posts. This is true. People seem to have fixed positions and they use these to sledgehammer those with different fixed positions. Complexity, nuance, openness to different ways of thinking about things, etc. are often absent. But another problem is that posters go on and on about sectarian politics. What so and so said said sixty years ago in some sect is of no interest to most of us. You were in the SWP, for example, and the organization consumed your life, just as does religion when a person becomes a zealous adherent to a faith. Then you get disillisioned for one reason or another, but spend the rest of your life rehashing the past and pointing fingers at those who are now in the sect. Like a drug addict who can't get enough talk about drugs and using drugs, but then when he or she kicks the habit, the rest of life is spent going to meetings and reliving, in a way, the old drug life, except now as a former addict. This all gets boring beyond words. Life goes on, and most of the world's inhabitants are miserable. Going on endlessly about the sex abuse scandal in the British SWP seems a waste of time to me and to anyone who would like to see this misery end. One last point for all the Cuba bashers here. I'd say Cuba has done more to end misery in the world than just about any nation in the world, certainly in proportion to its size. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Empty Cuba blather,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I used the word you in my last post. This did not refer to Louis, but was a generic you. And I don't care if list participants comment on the British SWP controversy or about sectarian politics now or in the past. I am free not to read them, which I don't, except usually Louis's since his posts will keep me up to date on the topic at hand, and he is interesting. Anyway, no offense meant to anyone. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Why do all these accounts overlook the fact that the Soviets, tired of all the Guevarist revolutionary romanticism, by 1968 gave Fidel the choice of either towing the Moscow line, or be left to the mercies of the US ? El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: Mr. Goodman godisamethod...@yahoo.com Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 1:53 PM Subject: [Marxism] Empty Cuba blather == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/9/13 2:42 PM, audrada...@aol.com wrote I have genuine exchange with my boss, too. He's a truly nice guy. He often listens to my suggestions and occasionally follows them. And if I cross him in any serious way, he would fire me in a hot second. This is bullshit. No, what is bullshit is wasting time with superficial jibes like this on a mailing list with 1500 subscribers worldwide trying to understand Cuban society, the politics of their own country, or problems facing the left generally. One of the reasons I blog is that it allows me to organize my thoughts, do research, and write in the fashion of the Russian left of the early 1900s. I don't say that I am the equal of a Preobrezhensky or a Bukharin but when I read their articles on www.marxists.org, I see how high a level their conversations and debates were conducted at. I established Marxmail in 1998 with the hope that it would encourage serious debate among Marxists. The longer it is around, the more pessimistic I become. I think comrades participate in these debates as if they were opportunities to wise off. I almost never see anybody writing anything of substance, or citing scholarly material. It is enough to make me consider flushing it down the toilet. Edward Boorstein, The Economic Transformation of Cuba: By October 1960 most of this administrative and technical personnel had left Cuba. The Americans and some of the Cubans were withdrawn by the home companies of the plants for which they worked, or left of their own accord: they found themselves unable to understand the struggle with the United States, unwilling to accept the new way of life that was opening up before them. The Revolutionary Government had to keep the factories and mines going only with a minute proportion of the usual trained and experienced personnel. A few examples can perhaps best give an idea of what happened. Five of us from the Ministry of Foreign Commerce, on a business visit, were being taken through the Moa nickel plant. In the electric power station--itself a large plant--which served the rest of the complex, our guide was an enthusiastic youngster of about 22. He did an excellent job as guide, but his modesty as well as his age deceived us and only toward the end of our tour did we realize that he was not some sort of apprentice engineer or assistant--he was in charge of the plant. I noticed that he spoke English well and asked him if he had lived in the States. Sure, he answered, I studied engineering at Tulane. As soon as he finished, he had come back to work for the Revolution and had been placed in charge of the power plant. In another part of the complex, the head of one of the key departments was a black Cuban who had about four years of elementary school education. He had been an observant worker and when engineer of his department left he knew what to do--although he didn't really know why, or how his department related to the others in the plant. Now to learn why, he was plugging away at his minimo tecnico manual--one of the little mimeographed booklets which had been distributed throughout industry to improve people's knowledge of their jobs. And so on throughout the Moa plant. The engineer in charge of the whole enterprise, who had a long cigar in his hand and his feet on the desk as he gave us his criticisms of the way our Ministry was handling his import requirements, was about 28 years old. His chief assistants were about the same age and some of them were obviously not engineers. Yet Moa was made to function. Even laymen are struck with its delicate beauty--a testament to American engineering skill. 'Es una joya'--it's a jewel, say the Cubans. It is much more impressive than the larger but older nickel plant at Nicaro. Shortly after the nickel ore is clawed out of the earth by giant Bucyrus power shovels, it a pulverized and mixed with water to form a mixture 55 percent and 45 percent water. From then on all materials movement is liquids, in pipes, automatically controlled. The liquids move through the several miles
[Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/8/13 12:08 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: What is Cuba's party position on Syria's ongoing conflict? Cuba supports al-Assad, as it supported Qaddafi. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Huh, I actually support Cuba. 2013/2/8 Louis Proyect l...@panix.com ==**==**== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. ==**==**== On 2/8/13 12:08 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: What is Cuba's party position on Syria's ongoing conflict? Cuba supports al-Assad, as it supported Qaddafi. __**__ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.eduMarxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.** utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/danieldiniz%40gmail.**comhttp://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/danieldiniz%40gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Allegedly, there were Cuban military advisors present in Syria (and South Yemen) during the Cold war period. El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: Mr. Goodman godisamethod...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 8, 2013 11:18 AM Subject: [Marxism] Empty Cuba blather == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/8/13 12:08 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: What is Cuba's party position on Syria's ongoing conflict? Cuba supports al-Assad, as it supported Qaddafi. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/godisamethodist%40yahoo.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Empty Cuba blather
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis Proyect wrote On 2/8/13 12:08 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: What is Cuba's party position on Syria's ongoing conflict? Cuba supports al-Assad, as it supported Qaddafi. All through the past two years of backing and forthing on the middle east on the left, I have been trying to express something that Paula Cerni raised on Lou Levi's Ope-L list awhile back, about the contradictions of the notion of imperialism/subimperialisms, about the tribulations of the attempt at a socialist project within an isolated nation-state, how in the struggle to survive they must seek out allies wherever they find them, especially among other states which are trying to put in place nationalist projects, internal development independent of the dominant states, and being run off the planet for it; states such as Libya, Syria, Nasser's Egypt, the short-lived and often spurious populist efforts, People's Democratic Republic of Yemen, People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia, Julius Nyerere's ujamaa project for an African socialist Tanzania, The People's Republic of Mozambique, Angola, the Congo; states which otherwise are at best nationalist/populist and often in the interests of national capital, but at least for the limited purposes of national self-determination, networks, trade preferences and access to resources probably, are allies; the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, every state professing to be moving in a a socialist direction seems to have faced this dilemma; how that distorts their socialist credentials, as they are forced to oppose, publicly, the genuine people's revolts within those states in attempting to shore up that precarious base of small-state alliances. The dominant states are of course able to profit from the inconsistencies and contradictions that this produces as they appear. They can intervene in the name of democracy or stability or anti-terrorism, pick compliant factions within such movements, and flummox and obscure the whole effort. The possibilities of an expression of genuine revolution by the base, of a real democratic overturning, are scotched and bottled up. To try to sort through the welter of conflicting, fragmented reports as these events unfold is so difficult and depends so much on indigenous forces having articulate spokespersons, a viable program and access to broad outlets for publicizing their cause, and lacking this their allies elsewhere are just milling around to no good effect - as Lou says, like dogs racing around in the firehouse when they hear a siren. Networks and organization, of course, but more than that a theoretical stance. Maybe I haven't looked in the right places, but I haven't seen any substantive theoretical or practical treatment of this problem, which really should lend itself to a dialectical analysis in a more general way that helps steer through these shoals and helps to overcome this very real, very current problem; a study of this acute dilemma is sorely needed. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
