Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Gary MacLennan gary.maclenn...@gmail.comwrote: Wasn't it Kierkegaard's point that we should not try to defend God in this transaction? Abraham is a hero to Kierkegaard precisely because he says yes to what of course is a quite evil request. There is no trace at all of rationality in this scenario. So it is somewhere beyond intelligence. IIRC, the point of it was that faith can be superior to good - the teleological suspension of the ethical, etc. Which is obviously a controversial claim, but not one I would necessarily place beyond either rationality or intelligence. But, in all honesty, I haven't done more than skim it over the course of this exchange (or the last six years), and might easily have missed/forgotten something essential. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com wrote: If Kierkegaard was concerned with human sacrifice, what would he say about Jephtha? Who was the hero there--Jephtha, who wanted to break his promise? God, who insisted on the sacrifice? The submissive daughter? Leaving aside the theory that Jephthah's daughter was consigned to perpetual singlehood (given Judges 11's strange way of dwelling on it, and Mosaic law's rather strict prohibition of human sacrifice), when did God insist on any such a thing? (For that matter, when did Jephthah indicate that he wanted to break his promise)? http://www.biblestudytools.com/rsv/judges/11.html -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == While you're waiting on the library, here's a shorter article by Gottwald http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1308. I agree that he's among the best liberation theologians on the Hebrew scriptures. Peace, Love, Revolution! Charley Check out my blog: radicalprogress.info Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Palymra, in eastern Syria. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: I was intrigued when I was in the Middle East and actually a temple to Baal from circa 200 BC partially intact, a domed structure in the sophisticated Hellenic style. Very interesting. Where was that? I recently visited the Philistine temple of Dagon supposedly demolished by Sampson in Gaza. (Today it's the Great Mosque, of course.) In our 50s US world in church school, however, Abraham-as depicted by Charlton Heston-was praised for willing to sacrifice his son. Oh sure, God would never have made him do it, but Abraham mindless (call it faith) willingness to obey such a command from a rightful ruler was considered most praiseworthy and part of what the Free World and the American Way were all about. I imagine Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling may be a more intelligent (which is not necessarily to say valid) defense of Abraham. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/tomcod3%40gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Are you serious? What Hellenic god(s) had a similar story to Jesus. Prometheus? he was human and it was the gods that tormented him, not earthly authorities. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Tristan Sloughter tristan.slough...@gmail.com wrote: Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think we're talking about sons of gods, virgin births, etc. Christianity essentially developed a remarkable flexibility that allowed it to assimilate what it encountered.. We saw this more recently in the New World, no? ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Wikipedia has some information on the similarities between Jesus and other mythological people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology#Dionysus_and_the_Greek_mysteries And I find much of this very different from say the similarities between myths that are found throughout the world. Like the great flood for example. You can find stories of great floods in cultures and religions everywhere but not because one was necessary influenced by the other, or the more absurd idea that the entire world flooded.. But instead because early people lived and died by the water of rivers near them. And of course Jesus takes on a number of distinguishing attributes due to the time and place of his followers. I believe C.S. Lewis has a quote where he says the figures who are similar to Jesus before Jesus were stories planted by the Devil... I don't know much about C.S. Lewis besides the little I read as a child and the BBC series but that seems unlikely for him to have believed, I wish I could find where I first heard this. Tristan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Aug 14, 2011, at 12:58 PM, Tom Cod wrote: Are you serious? What Hellenic god(s) had a similar story to Jesus? Dionysus: Son of Zeus, died and rose from the dead to become a God, and a *Wine* god to boot (like Jesus at Cama and in the Eucharist) Prometheus? he was human Prometheus was a Titan (existed before the Olympian Gods). Not the least little bit human. Shane Mage scientific discovery is basically recognition of obvious realities that self-interest or ideology have kept everybody from paying attention to Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:12:34 -0400 Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com writes: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think we're talking about sons of gods, virgin births, etc. Christianity essentially developed a remarkable flexibility that allowed it to assimilate what it encountered.. We saw this more recently in the New World, no? In the case of the Christians, they insisted on giving Jesus such titles as Son of God, and Price of Peace, which as it so happens were also titles that the Roman Senate had granted to Octavius, and which were retained by susbsequent emperors. That sort of thing helped to convince the Romans that the Christians were a politically subversive cult. Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/farmelantj%4 0juno.com 57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25 Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e481b7e3151561f956st01vuc Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == typo alert: Cana, not Cama On Aug 14, 2011, at 1:25 PM, Shane Mage wrote: On Aug 14, 2011, at 12:58 PM, Tom Cod wrote: Are you serious? What Hellenic god(s) had a similar story to Jesus? Dionysus: Son of Zeus, died and rose from the dead to become a God, and a *Wine* god to boot (like Jesus at Cama and in the Eucharist) Prometheus? he was human Prometheus was a Titan (existed before the Olympian Gods). Not the least little bit human. Shane Mage scientific discovery is basically recognition of obvious realities that self-interest or ideology have kept everybody from paying attention to Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/shmage%40pipeline.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I would definitely want to know more (I know nothing) about Campbell. Someone with an informed opinion of James Frazier and Robert Graves should chime in. Joe is right about C.S. Lewis. Even aside from his use of various pagan mythological characters in the Narnia Chronicles, see the footnote on page 18 of Miracles, where he says: Myth at its best is a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. He talks much more about Hebrew folk tales as anticipations -- constructed purposively by God -- of the Christian myths which, as Joe says, Lewis thought were also true. The Greek myths were fine as unfocused gleams, but just didn't happen to be the ones that God chose to instruct his followers. On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: == Are you perhaps thinking of Justin Martyr ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm), or perhaps someone else inspired by him? Lewis' perspective on the question, as far as I know, was that the story of Christ is simply a true myth; a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference, that it really happened, and one must be content to accept it in the same way, remembering that it is God's Myth where the others are men's myths. And for a fellow who made all sorts of myths his bread and butter, Lewis could hardly have held such a dim view of any of them. -- Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Joseph Campbell on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 530 898 5321 fax 530 898 5901 http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I imagine Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling may be a more intelligent (which is not necessarily to say valid) defense of Abraham. Wasn't it Kierkegaard's point that we should not try to defend God in this transaction? Abraham is a hero to Kierkegaard precisely because he says yes to what of course is a quite evil request. There is no trace at all of rationality in this scenario. So it is somewhere beyond intelligence. comradely Gary Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I was starting to look around for books on the creation of the Abraham myth and the religions based on it -- like how the Greek and Canaanite religions influenced the myths and how the Torah was pieced together by the various authors. As well as on the Eastern religion creations, since those I know the least about. I first ran into Max Weber, who I've never read any works of, and some of his stuff seems pretty interesting... He has a theory that the non-messianic religions of the East are what slowed their economic development towards capitalism. This is part of his argument against historical materialism for understanding the development of capitalism. Though it seems to me (based on a couple sentences on wikipedia I've read, haha, so I'm probably completely wrong) that he is actually giving support to Marx's dialectic by showing the religions of the East were support for the unique caste system they had, which slowed the development to capitalism, but I digress. Anyway... I thought this would be a good list to ask if anyone has suggestions on works to read and opinions on Max Weber's work on religion. Thanks, Tristan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == First of all, the Greek religion was not based on or closely related to this at all. In fact the story of the Maccabees is about a war between them circa 150 BC. The Greeks viewed the Hebrews and the Baalites as mindless uncultured barbarians who ate their children or who would if God told them to, a tradition they viewed as alien to their humanistic ethos which also justified the imperialism of Alexander and his successors during this period which only brought culture to these benighted folk. Yeah hey, I got sent to a church school where we were taught how great all this was, how the Israelites had a contest one time with this other tribe where each sacrificed a bunch of cattle, but God only responded (with lightning?) to the Israelites giving them the signal to wipe out their opponents. Yeah and of course the one good thing that was supposedly superior to those hedonistic pagans and their multiple gods, was the monotheism of the Christians and the Jews, implying one ruler or monarchy-or the Roman emperor, is a better form of existence say than rule by council or Senate of deities. The first time I ever heard the word reactionary was in this religion class in 7th grade circa 1965 which the Anglican priest explained was what those bad communists called good god fearing people. To the extent that he referred to himself as one, he was telling the truth. Brings to mind that scene in Midnight Express, where the prisoners in the Turkish prison are forced to push a mill gear around for no purpose while chanting, Left Bad, Right Good! I was intrigued when I was in the Middle East and actually a temple to Baal from circa 200 BC partially intact, a domed structure in the sophisticated Hellenic style. Hey, from what I learned in school I expected some kind of wretched hovel. Then again the Phoenecians and the Carthaginians were supposedly into this tradition. Crucifixion was one their contributions to Roman culture. When the Romans finally wiped them out in a major act of genocide, they justified this in part on the basis of the child sacrifice they were supposedly into and the Nazis, through the likes of Julius Streicher in Der Sturmer, talked about this as well as it related to the Jews. In our 50s US world in church school, however, Abraham-as depicted by Charlton Heston-was praised for willing to sacrifice his son. Oh sure, God would never have made him do it, but Abraham mindless (call it faith) willingness to obey such a command from a rightful ruler was considered most praiseworthy and part of what the Free World and the American Way were all about. Bakunin has an excellent screed railing against all this: God and the State. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Tristan Sloughter tristan.slough...@gmail.com wrote: I was starting to look around for books on the creation of the Abraham myth and the religions based on it -- like how the Greek and Canaanite religions influenced the myths and how the Torah was pieced together by the various authors. As well as on the Eastern religion creations, since those I know the least about. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 2:38 AM, Tom Cod tomc...@gmail.com wrote: I was intrigued when I was in the Middle East and actually a temple to Baal from circa 200 BC partially intact, a domed structure in the sophisticated Hellenic style. Very interesting. Where was that? I recently visited the Philistine temple of Dagon supposedly demolished by Sampson in Gaza. (Today it's the Great Mosque, of course.) In our 50s US world in church school, however, Abraham-as depicted by Charlton Heston-was praised for willing to sacrifice his son. Oh sure, God would never have made him do it, but Abraham mindless (call it faith) willingness to obey such a command from a rightful ruler was considered most praiseworthy and part of what the Free World and the American Way were all about. I imagine Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling may be a more intelligent (which is not necessarily to say valid) defense of Abraham. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 13.08.2011 23:48, Tristan Sloughter wrote: I was starting to look around for books on the creation of the Abraham myth and the religions based on it -- like how the Greek and Canaanite religions influenced the myths and how the Torah was pieced together by the various authors. As well as on the Eastern religion creations, since those I know the least about. I first ran into Max Weber, who I've never read any works of, and some of his stuff seems pretty interesting... He has a theory that the non-messianic religions of the East are what slowed their economic development towards capitalism. This is part of his argument against historical materialism for understanding the development of capitalism. Though it seems to me (based on a couple sentences on wikipedia I've read, haha, so I'm probably completely wrong) that he is actually giving support to Marx's dialectic by showing the religions of the East were support for the unique caste system they had, which slowed the development to capitalism, but I digress. Anyway... I thought this would be a good list to ask if anyone has suggestions on works to read and opinions on Max Weber's work on religion. Karl Kautsky did some interesting things on religion: Foundations of Christianity available online at http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1908/christ/index.htm - particularly Book 3 for the origins of the Jews and Judaism. Another useful source is Paul N. Siegel, The Meek and the Militant. Einde O'Callaghan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks, Einde. I have 'Foundations of Christianity', but still must finish it. And loved 'The Meek and the Militant'. That book and Appendix II of my copy of Bakunin's 'Statism and Anarchy (the Cambridge University Press v ersion) are what made me change my view on religion from being too confrontational (I think that's the word to describe it...) to being understanding and fully understanding Marx's quote that it is the 'opium of the masses'. Tristan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Materialist History of Abraham Religions?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Sorry to interject again, but this sums it up nicely: How Class Works in Caste: Trajectory of an Erroneous Discourse from Max Weber to Louis Dumont” by Hira Singh Department of Sociology York University [Paper presented at the Conference, “How Class Works - 2010”, SUNY, Stony Brook, June 3-5, 2010] Abstract Max Weber’s distinction between ‘class’ and ‘status’ remains, to date, a seminal text for the mainstream sociology. For Max Weber, caste represents the ideal type of status, as opposed to class. While Max Weber’s distinction between class and status is marked by inconsistency - both logical and historical (at worst), or ambiguity (at best), the succeeding generations of sociologists and social-cultural anthropologists studying caste have overlooked the inconsistency, and erased the ambiguity, in Weber’s conceptualization of class and status. The common refrain of sociological and anthropological studies of caste is to contrast caste and class. One important, and unfortunate, consequence of this tendency, apart from a distorted view of class and caste, is the notion of ‘Indian exceptionalism’ - the argument that, given the dominance of caste, albeit status, class is irrelevant to the study of Indian society and history. This view is presented most forcefully by Louis Dumont in his famous work, Homohierarchicus. Dumont’s protagonists and detractors alike, numerous as they are, have not seriously examined the flawed – both logically and historically – conceptualization of class-status distinction by Weber, which Dumont accepts uncritically and takes it to another extreme to turn caste inequality into a religious hierarchy and deny caste as a case of social stratification altogether. My paper is a critical examination of Weber’s conceptualization of caste as status and its further distortion by Dumont to show that class and caste are not mutually exclusive. Historically, the dominant caste in India is indeed, the dominant class. The objective of my paper, in the short run, is to argue against ‘Indian exceptionalism’ – an offshoot of orientalism and colonial anthropology. Its objective, in the long run, is to rescue class from Weberian distortion premised on the distinction between class and status. Louis Dumont and the Caste System in India US-Them (India, the other) Louis Dumont believes in studying a society primarily in terms of its dominant ideology. He contrasts Indian ideology with modern Western ideology in order to understand Indian as well as the modern Western society and history. This contrast is a characteristic feature of his entire exercise. In his scheme, India is a typical case of holism and hierarchy, the exact opposite modern Western ideology of equality and individualism. As pointed out by Andre Beteille (2006), Dumont has a taste for symmetry: Homo Hierarchicus vs. Homo Aequqlis; hierarchy vs. equality; holism vs. individualism. This craving for symmetry, Beteille rightly notes, is more than a matter of personal taste. It is characteristic of an intellectual tradition called Orientalism. According to Dumont, Holism entails hierarchy while individualism entails equality. India stays at the extreme end of holistic societies, while France at the time of her Revolution was distinguished by an extreme ideological stress on equality On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Greg McDonald gregm...@gmail.com wrote: For a more contemporary and ethnographic approach in the Weberian vein see Louis Dumont: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-professor-louis-dumont-1189259.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
