Re: [Marxism] Fw: UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 8:50 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:

The U. S. government in its many forms - are a danger to the Syrian masses - 
and not a protector.


Yes, the US government is a danger to the Syrian masses.

Wall Street Journal, October 17, 2012

U.S. officials say they are most worried about Russian-designed Manpads 
provided to Libya making their way to Syria. The U.S. intensified 
efforts to track and collect man-portable missiles after the 2011 fall 
of the country’s longtime strongman leader, Moammar Gadhafi.


To keep control of the flow of weapons to the Syrian rebels, TURKEY, 
SAUDI ARABIA and QATAR formed a joint operations room early this year in 
a covert project U.S. officials watched from afar.


The U.S. has limited its support of the rebels to communications 
equipment, logistics and intelligence. But U.S. officials have 
coordinated with the trio of countries sending arms and munitions to the 
rebels. The Pentagon and CIA ramped up their presence on Turkey’s 
southern border as the weapons began to flow to the rebels in two to 
three shipments every week.


In July, the U.S. effectively HALTED the delivery of at least 18 Manpads 
sourced from Libya, even as the rebels pleaded for more effective 
antiaircraft missiles to counter regime airstrikes in Aleppo, people 
familiar with that delivery said.

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[Marxism] Fw: UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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I consider myself aware of the the history of Syria and the various political 
and religious currents there -

including the many different tribal and religious sects, that are involved in 
both pro-Syria government and

anti-Syria government.  All the small military militias with their various 
eagle and flag symbols and names.

I subscribe to many Syria sites and not jut those outside of Syria, as others 
on this list - from what I have

seen shared by them.


But I have no favorable view of  the various front groups that have been 
established that support either

a capitalist Bathist government, or the many bands of various jihadi opponents. 
 There has been little to

no reporting on the various Syrian political left currents - only just the 
anti-left formations.


I have watched and been supportive of those Kurds and other minorities in Iraq 
and Syria, who have

opposed ISIS and al-Qaeda and adhere to  proletarian rule and not the wealthy 
rulers and monarchs

of those lands.


I was told many years by some on this list, including the moderator, that I 
should not criticize the Iran

government - because it "objectively aided U.S. imperialism".  Now these same 
people are condemning

that same Iran government for supporting the Bashir al-Assad Bathist led 
government in Syria! And when

I warned several years ago of my concerns about the Syrian Civil War becoming a 
bloody conflict that would

only harm most Syrians - and opposed any U. S. military involvement - some of 
these same supposed

wise people - refused to recognize both reality and history of that land and 
peoples.


The U. S. government in its many forms - are a danger to the Syrian masses - 
and not a protector.





From: Marx Mail00 

On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Obrien via Marxism 
> wrote:

the jihadists in Syria - are not for tolerance but seek power and control - 
motivated not by progressive political views - but by reactionary religious 
views.

Quibbles about words like “progressive” and “reactionary” aside, this statement 
by Obrien is true *by definition* and therefore vacuous: the predicate 
("seeking power and control"; "motivated by religious views") is implied by the 
choice of the subject of the sentence ("jihadists”).

The fact that Obrien believes the subject “jihadists” truthfully represents all 
those fighting Assad says everything one needs to know about his ignorance of, 
and bias regarding, the conflict in Syria.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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Again let me paraphrase Chris:

The US has been bombing Syrian and Iraqi cities (and countless others 
around the world for years).


The YPG/SDF are supported systematically by the US (to a far more 
massive and systematic degree than any revels have ever been "supported" 
by Turkey or Saudis (let alone today!), most notably, by the very same 
US air force that does the bombing.


I think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and 
had control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that 
rebelled against their rule.


-Original Message- 
From: Chris Slee via Marxism


Turkey has been bombing Kurdish cities.

Saudi Arabia has been bombing Yemeni cities.

Some Syrian rebel groups are supported by Turkey and/or Saudi Arabia.  I 
think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and 
had control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that 
rebelled against their rule.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 8:27 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:



Are you stating - that the U. S.military - could be of actual help?


You need to brush up on the use of irony. You might want to start with 
your fellow Irishman Jonathan Swift, especially since St. Patrick's Day 
was only yesterday.

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[Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Are you stating - that the U. S.military - could be of actual help?


Thus ignoring the purpose of the U. S. military - which is to harm those

opposed to capitalist rule?




On 3/18/17 8:14 PM, John Obrien wrote:
> I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to
> be inflicted on the Arab masses,


Of course not. The Syrians and Russians you implicitly support needed no
help.


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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Marx Mail00 via Marxism]

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> On Mar 18, 2017, at 8:14 PM, John Obrien via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> the jihadists in Syria - are not for tolerance but seek power and control - 
> motivated not by progressive political views - but by reactionary religious 
> views.

Quibbles about words like “progressive” and “reactionary” aside, this statement 
by Obrien is true *by definition* and therefore vacuous: the predicate 
("seeking power and control"; "motivated by religious views") is implied by the 
choice of the subject of the sentence ("jihadists”).

The fact that Obrien believes the subject “jihadists” truthfully represents all 
those fighting Assad says everything one needs to know about his ignorance of, 
and bias regarding, the conflict in Syria.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Hi all,

Can someone summarize the dispute for those of us who are less
knowledgeable about Syria and Rojava? Who are these factions, what do they
stand for, and what exactly is at stake in this UN report?

- Amith

On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 3/18/17 8:14 PM, John Obrien wrote:
>
>> I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to
>> be inflicted on the Arab masses,
>>
>
>
> Of course not. The Syrians and Russians you implicitly support needed no
> help.
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 8:14 PM, John Obrien wrote:

I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to
be inflicted on the Arab masses,



Of course not. The Syrians and Russians you implicitly support needed no 
help.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Unlike Christopher Hitchens  -  and the moderator

I never viewed the U. S. government military - as something positive- to be 
inflicted on the Arab masses,

including in Syria.


And I never identified religious reactionaries - as revolutionaries - as has 
been described on this Marxist site.


I believe that Bashir al-Assad is a proclaimed Muslim.  Unlike the Muslim 
worker friends that I work with

at my wage job and interact with in the working class neighborhood that I 
reside in - the jihadists in Syria -

are not for tolerance but seek power and control - motivated not by progressive 
political views - but by

reactionary religious views.






On 3/18/17 7:48 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:
>
> The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
> planes on buildings?


Christopher Hitchens couldn't have put it 
better.
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 7:48 PM, John Obrien via Marxism wrote:


The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
planes on buildings?



Christopher Hitchens couldn't have put it better.
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[Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[John Obrien via Marxism]

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Chris Slee has it correct!


It is too bad that the moderator does not learn from history.

Religious fanatics have and are inclined to use every brutality against those 
who think different.


Most of the Iranian left falsely believed in 1979 that  Iran's Shite leaders 
would adhere to democracy

and not carry out the same behavior as the Shah.  A tragic mistake to not 
understand the reactionary

role of religious fundamentalism.


The moderator is unaware of 9/11 and the Islamic terrorist use of civilian 
planes on buildings?

If one wants to believe that al-Qaeda's supporters in Syria (al-Nusra, etc.) 
and ISIS and other

such jihadi fanatics would not use indiscriminate bombing as Bashir al-Assad, 
is ignoring reality.

Suicide bombing by vehicle is regularly used - and like the Shinto religious 
fanatics of Japan in

their kamikaze plane attacks, or the British Christian use of poison gas on the 
Iraqis efforts

for independence following WWI, or the United States widespread use of napalm 
bombings

in Korea and later Vietnam - there is a long sad barbaric history of violence - 
by religious "believers".


As a Gay man, I can tell you with certainty that religious fanatics harm - and 
many are happy to

do massive harm with savagery and whatever weapons they can gain use of - 
including planes.


Karl Marx was correct when he identified religion and religious believers - as 
part of the problem.

As "the opium of the people".  Perhaps some want to view Islam "as progressive" 
- but it is not

and like its other religious adherent counter parts - promotes masters, rulers 
and servants.

Away with all false ideologies and backward thinking - including in Syria!




On 3/18/17 4:09 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
>  I think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and had 
> control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that rebelled 
> against their rule.

Except that the "jihadists" have never deployed artillery in the
indiscriminate fashion that Assad has used his air force. When a single
hospital in West Aleppo came under fire, there were ten thousand
articles denouncing such inhumanity but not a single one about all the
hospitals that had been leveled to the ground in East Aleppo. If you
have trouble grasping this, I suggest you read the Zionist press on
Hamas's rocket attacks on Sderot. As is almost universally the case, the
"anti-imperialist" press can figure this out when it comes to Gaza but
not Syria. Too bad that Chris Slee reflects this sort of bad faith.

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[Marxism] Fwd: The Reclusive Hedge-Fund Tycoon Behind the Trump Presidency - The New Yorker

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/27/the-reclusive-hedge-fund-tycoon-behind-the-trump-presidency
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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[ioannis aposperites via Marxism]

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Devil has been burning sinners

Some scholars, like Faust, are supported by Devil.
I think it is reasonable to assume that if such scholars came to power 
and had control of hell they would be prepared to burn some sinners too.

 JA

On 18/03/2017 10:09 μμ, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:


Turkey has been bombing Kurdish cities.

Saudi Arabia has been bombing Yemeni cities.

Some Syrian rebel groups are supported by Turkey and/or Saudi Arabia.  I think 
it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and had control of 
an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that rebelled against their 
rule.



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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 3/18/17 4:09 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:

 I think it is reasonable to assume that if such groups came to power and had 
control of an air force they would be prepared to bomb cities that rebelled 
against their rule.


Except that the "jihadists" have never deployed artillery in the 
indiscriminate fashion that Assad has used his air force. When a single 
hospital in West Aleppo came under fire, there were ten thousand 
articles denouncing such inhumanity but not a single one about all the 
hospitals that had been leveled to the ground in East Aleppo. If you 
have trouble grasping this, I suggest you read the Zionist press on 
Hamas's rocket attacks on Sderot. As is almost universally the case, the 
"anti-imperialist" press can figure this out when it comes to Gaza but 
not Syria. Too bad that Chris Slee reflects this sort of bad faith.

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Re: [Marxism] UN Syria Commission clears YPG/J and SDF of ethnic cleansing charges

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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How about this typical bit of Zionist projection - If the Palestinians had
the power, they would have ethnically cleansed the Jews.

On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 12:57 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/17/17 6:57 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
>
>> I agree with Michael that the Assad regime has killed more people
>> than the rebels.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
>> lot of high-tech weapons that the rebels don't have.  If they had
>> similar weapons they might be doing similar things.
>>
>
> Chris, are you being serious using an argument like that? I expected
> better. If that is your argument, I just wonder when it doesn't apply.
> Surely the difference in actual killing power you refer to might have
> something to do with the difference in actual power, and thus have some
> bearing on the very nature of the conflict? No? OK, then let's try this:
>
> I agree with Chris that the Turkish regime has killed more people
>> than the PKK.  A major reason for this is that the regime has a
>> lot of high-tech weapons that the PKK doesn't have.  If they had
>> similar weapons they might be doing similar things.
>>
>
>
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[Marxism] Fwd: 'Paris in Georgia': political salons spring up across US in push against Trump | US news | The Guardian

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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In the suburbs of Minneapolis–St Paul, friends gather around a backyard 
campfire to discuss how to turn their Donald Trump anger into action.


In San Francisco, California, an all-female crew eats Middle Eastern 
food and reads the constitution.


In Decatur, Georgia, a silver bell gets rung if anyone in the group of 
mainly suburban moms starts speaking off-topic during their monthly 
get-togethers.


Political “salons” are popping up in living rooms, bars and backyards in 
response to the 2016 election of Donald Trump. Some have wine; some have 
a set agenda; all are scheming how to fight against this presidency.


Salons first gained fame in France during the Enlightenment, with 
citizens gathering to engage in political conversations and arguments; 
they acted as a place to plan revolution and discuss philosophy. The 
concept has continued ever since, with the author Gertrude Stein and the 
former secretary of state Madeleine Albright both known to have hosted them.


“I used the term salon to evoke old gatherings of artists and 
intellectuals in a hostess’s home,” said Mary Huber, founder of the 
Progressive Salon of Decatur. “Yep, Paris in the 1920s, recreated here 
in Decatur, Georgia,” she quipped.



full: 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/18/political-salons-us-trump-protest

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[Marxism] Fwd: Book Review: Materialism - TheHumanist.com

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Terry Eagleton's new book.

https://thehumanist.com/arts_entertainment/books/book-review-materialism
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[Marxism] Fwd: The Academic Home of Trumpism - The Chronicle of Higher Education

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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http://www.chronicle.com/article/The-Academic-Home-of-Trumpism/239495
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[Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Erdogan’s informers: Turkey’s descent into fear and betrayal

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Financial Times, Mar. 16 2017   
Erdogan’s informers: Turkey’s descent into fear and betrayal
As political pressure intensifies, friends, colleagues and even spouses 
are reporting each other for a range of offences


by Laura Pitel

Browsing Facebook at home one Saturday, Bilgin Ciftci saw a post that 
made him chuckle. It was a montage of images of Turkey’s President Recep 
Tayyip Erdogan placed alongside Gollum from The Lord of the Rings. In 
the first, the president and the shrivelled inhabitant of Middle-earth 
shared a look of astonishment. The second showed both figures wide-eyed 
with wonder. In the third, Erdogan gnawed on a chicken drumstick while 
Gollum bit into a scaly fish.


Ciftci, a doctor from the western town of Aydin, clicked “share” and 
thought no more of it. But a few weeks later, he was summoned to see the 
police and charged with insulting the president — a criminal offence 
in Turkey. He lost his job at a public hospital and became trapped in a 
legal ordeal that has so far dragged on for more than 18 months. At one 
stage, the judge appointed a panel of Tolkien experts to advise whether 
Gollum should be deemed good or bad (they ruled that he is good at heart).


Amid the absurdity, there was another, darker layer to the story. When 
he shared the meme, Ciftci, 48, believed he was only showing it to those 
in his private Facebook network. But the police had a screenshot of his 
page. They had not hacked his account or snooped on his computer. The 
truth was far more unsettling: he had been betrayed by someone he knew. 
Ciftci deduced that the culprit was the husband of one of his relatives. 
When he called up to confront him, the relative first denied it and then 
hung up the phone.


Ciftci’s ordeal reflects something bigger happening in Turkey, something 
that could come straight from the pages of a dystopian novel. On an 
almost weekly basis, stories emerge of friends, colleagues and even 
spouses reporting each other for a catalogue of offences. “This has 
become a phenomenon in our society,” says Ciftci from a café near Aydin 
courthouse, an institution now more familiar than he could ever have 
imagined. “There are people who are more royalist than the king. They 
become citizen informers.”


***

All police and intelligence services routinely use infiltrators and 
informers in their efforts against organised crime and terrorism. Turkey 
— a country that last year suffered not only 267 separate terrorist 
attacks but also a violent coup attempt that left more than 200 dead — 
faces many genuine and deeply serious threats. But there are also 
countless stories of unpaid, ordinary citizens who have taken it upon 
themselves to become a volunteer army of informers.



Bilgin Ciftci: the doctor was charged with insulting the president and 
lost his job after a Facebook 'friend' sent the police a screenshot of a 
satirical post he shared on the social network © Ivor Prickett
History is rich with precedent for this kind of betrayal, from Hollywood 
stars reporting each other at the height of the McCarthyite witch-hunts 
to the vast network of informers who aided the Stasi in the German 
Democratic Republic. Turkey, too, has a substantial track record. The 
paranoid Sultan Abdul Hamid II tried to hold together the fraying 
Ottoman Empire with an army of official and unofficial snitches.


A US consular report from the early 1940s notes that Turks who 
disapproved of the government would frequently find that their “petty 
infractions” were discovered by police, at times with the help of secret 
informers “who seem to abound in this locality”. After a 1971 coup, the 
ruling generals’ fondness for “dear citizen informers” as a term for 
addressing the nation later spawned a play with the same name.


In today’s Turkey, in which opposition parties are toothless and all 
major media outlets brought to heel, realms such as the teahouse, the 
lecture hall or the Facebook newsfeed are harder to control. For several 
years the government has routinely urged elected neighbourhood officials 
to keep tabs on those in their local area. Increasingly, these calls 
have extended to ordinary citizens, too.


The motivation comes from the very top. “If there’s someone you know, 
wherever they are, inform our security services immediately,” President 
Erdogan urged in December, speaking in the wake of a series of deadly 
terror attacks. “This is not just the job of our security services.”


Egged on by such encouragement and aided by a flawed judicial system, 
loyal supporters now patrol both the public and private spheres. Some 
even boast about their exploits on social media. “In