Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "It is about organizing our class around all their struggles, including basic things like unions." Oh, the AFL-CIO isn't mouth-on-tit with the Dems? News to me! I agree a presidential campaign must be merely a catalyst for a larger organizational project that is about a wider social movement. Norman Thomas made this point in an interview: <https://youtu.be/r7VJ8niFPa4> But to suggest a struggle for basic needs is synonymous with organizing institutions beholden to the duopoly is ridiculous. If anything it needs to build a project that is directly oppositional to the auxiliaries of the duopoly, meaning caucuses of the Democrats such as the AFL-CIO's political endorsement process. Unions in America furthermore have not been about radical solidarity since the passage of the National Labor Relations Act, instead they have been about increasing worker purchase power as a component of the free market capitalist system, something Reuther described in detail in 1958 <https://youtu.be/Pfmc-MjCY9g>. So spare me the revolutionary pap about a reformist project. And again, I repeat, who exactly ARE you organizing? -- Best regards, Andrew Stewart Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 11:18:41 -0700 From: DW To: Andrew Stewart via Marxism Subject: Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Andrew, it's not about organizing actively for a political candidate at all...that is crass electoralism that really has little to do with radical oganizing at all, IMHO. It is about organizing our class around all their struggles, including basic things like unions. That the center of this should be elections is really pointing people in the wrong direction. I'm all for having an electoral component of any organizing campaign, but the former should be in support of the latter. David Walters > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/dwaltersmia%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Andrew, it's not about organizing actively for a political candidate at all...that is crass electoralism that really has little to do with radical oganizing at all, IMHO. It is about organizing our class around all their struggles, including basic things like unions. That the center of this should be elections is really pointing people in the wrong direction. I'm all for having an electoral component of any organizing campaign, but the former should be in support of the latter. David Walters > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/dwaltersmia%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I have no love for the Senator from Ben and Jerry’s. But with that said, I frankly have no patience at this juncture for armchair revolutionary behavior where people are saying that they support radical politics while not actually doing the organizing. If you are not organizing actively for a political candidate, be they Green, Party of Socialism and Labor, whoever, you are not doing anything but making evidence to buttress the Democratic Party case that third party voters are merely advantageous cynics who are not serious about actual political struggle and instead merely use Election Day to make an individualist virtue signal that is absolutely divorced from continuous radical political struggle. Your analysis ain’t worth a mouse turd if you ain’t organizing. Whatever trouble we are in stems from people not organizing. Best regards, Andrew Stewart - - - Subscribe to the Washington Babylon newsletter via https://washingtonbabylon.com/newsletter/ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:28:52 -0400 From: Louis Proyect To: John Obrien ,Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble Message-ID: <90963e4c-032f-8308-7747-563d5689c...@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 10/1/19 8:57 PM, John Obrien wrote: > rs, who it actually aided) > > Your "interst" in the internal workings of the Sanders Campaign - as I > stated - always seems to never > mention any successes. That probably is a result of my class analysis of the Democratic Party. If you have a different analysis, why don't you share it. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 10/1/19 8:57 PM, John Obrien wrote: rs, who it actually aided) Your "interst" in the internal workings of the Sanders Campaign - as I stated - always seems to never mention any successes. That probably is a result of my class analysis of the Democratic Party. If you have a different analysis, why don't you share it. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bernie Sanders Is in Trouble - POLITICO Magazine - Actually We Are in trouble
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis, I was in error - Bernie Sanders raised twenty five million dollars in the past three months and not my mention of 19 million. And we shall see what is true and real - in time. As a poor laborer, I do not subscribe to any publication that cost funds. I do not generally read the NY Times, Washington Post, The Nation or Jacobin. One understanding economics and following the money and who benefits from, generally allows for finding the truth and not the lawyers, academic wordsmiths and deceivers, in the employ of the ruling elite. I really like your site for providing informative sources - but this Poltico article had not the purpose to inform but to attack - and you know that - and why you posted it (not caring it appears, who it actually aided) Your "interst" in the internal workings of the Sanders Campaign - as I stated - always seems to never mention any successes. I never see you sharing the Labor for Bernie efforts. Actually I see very little on or about organized labor's left wing, compared to what the bourgeois press wants to promote - as to be concerned about. I would like to see more on the labor unions in other nations as well, on their organizing and efforts with left wing groups. As a labor union member that interests me more than some academic profesors views on culture. It does not mean that I want to not be offered film and art reviews, but there seems a lot more going on around class politics, than the privileged who can afford to go to those movie theaters or plays. Recognize that the U. S. and the world, would be better wih Bernie Sanders as president. What alternative but complain do you propose? We know that the contributors on this site, who promoted and cheered to oust Khadaffi in Libya - and that I believed sadly their views and arguments then - were terribly wrong. Libya is worse today. That is a fact. Sometimes (or often) those of us on the left have to place facts before what we would like. I believe we should side with the youth who want more change and less accept wrong. And what you are unaware of, is that many of these youth who are not asked by paid bourgeois source pollsters and not believing the corporate fed media "news" might surprise you with the upcoming U. S. elections. What we are not prepared for - is when Trump refuses to leave - and the U. S. military sets up "for security" the running of the government - after the now real possibility of large numbers of armed fascists go to Washington DC, to support Trump staying in office, after next year's November election. And while bad weather reduces their numbers over three weeks, from 150,000 to around 30,000 - those remaining will be armed - and Pelosi and Schumer will have no way to remove them - since Trump will still be the military commander (as Clinton and Gore had no courage to even have federal marshals remove a couple of dozen republican party operatives from the Florida election registrar office counting the votes. Pelosi and Shumer are exactly the same) You might be there to challenge the remaining 30,000 armed fascists, but you will be unprepared - and I am unaware that you are courageous to physically fight anyone armed So after the clash between the 30,000 armed fascists that results in chaos, it seems the U. S. military will intervene to retain capitlaist rule "and order". But perhaps not as before with Pelosi and certainly not to support president Sanders carrying out his administrative oversight. This is the likely political road we are currently on. If Biden is the nominee - you can expect Trump will continue - and what then Louis do you propose that poor laborers as myself do? Just take it all nicely and accept business as usual destruction of our only environment? (the poor will suffer starvation while the professional academics will go silent, more interested their food continues provided by the rulers "new food distribution"). Class politics - you bet Louis, and if Trump survives the current impeachment political theater, it seems the "politics as usual" by the political operatives who personally benefit - will be disrupted - or even ended - and another way instead for "law and order" rule will be enacted - for the rulers. It is always FOR the rulers that the compliant best paid corrupt politicians will serve - not us. The internal 20th Century U. S. elections, worked well for the rulers. That model is not likely to continue, if the masses do not recognize and respect it. And the academics familiar with the university campuses and film houses - do not seem to understand that they might be in a very different
