Re: [Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now!
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/6/17 9:56 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote: So once I began reading the article, I came across the nonsense of Russia offering to remove Assad in 2012 I just wrote Chomsky on this: Noam, I understand that you are busy addressing many different topics but your knowledge of Syrian politics is superficial at best. Yes, in 2015 the Guardian reported on the claim made by former president of Finland Martti Ahtisaari that when Vitaly Churkin proposed a deal in 2012 that would have resulted in Assad stepping down in exchange for peace, the USA, Britain and France said no. I was not surprised to see the Islamophobic left taking this at face value 2 years ago. Writing for CounterPunch, Peter Lee considered this “an instance of neoliberal ass-covering, as if the Western allies were just waiting for Assad ‘to fall’” while Information Clearing House, a reliably pro-Assad website, reposted the Guardian article with the obvious intention of showing how Putin stood for peace and the West for war. Then there is David Swanson of Lets Try Democracy who concludes: “peace has been carefully avoided at every turn.” (http://davidswanson.org/node/4914) The only problem is that Churkin was not the ultimate authority on such matters. Much closer to Putin and certainly speaking for him, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated just four months later: “We will not support and cannot support any interference from outside or any imposition of recipes. This also concerns the fate of Bashar al-Assad.” _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now!
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I mostly agree with David here. Nick says Chomsky is saying pretty much the same as he always said. I agree, but for opposite reasons to Nick. Nick is right that Chomsky has often called the regime "monstrous" and so on. In fact, early on, back around 2012 or so, I'd say Chomsky had a pretty good position on Syria. But once he began relying on Cockburn's atrocious and ill-informed stuff, Chomsky showed that, far from a brilliant thinker on Syria, he was just a regurgitator of someone's views that fitted a tired old narrative that he was used to from decades ago that was irrelevant to current reality. Nothing wrong with Chomsky having no expertise whatsoever on Syria; one cannot be an expert on everything. The problem is that some feel they have to pretend to me, due to their stature among the left. So once I began reading the article, I came across the nonsense of Russia offering to remove Assad in 2012 but the US, UK and France resisting. While I agree with David's reasoning as to why they would resist (they've never wanted Assad gone, I agree), the simple fact of the matter is that no such even ever occurred. Russia never offered such a thing for the US to reject. Chomsky still repeats it, despite it being shown to be fantasy when first raised by Churkin in 2015. Chomsky must be aware of this, maybe we can cut him a little slack given his age, maybe he doesn't have time and energy to read everything, but if you make yourself a spokesperson you have a certain responsibility to check facts. The reason Chomsky likes to repeat this non-fact is because it fits the simplistic, non-Marxist narrative he likes: that the US is always the most responsible for everything that happens anywhere. The war continues not because Assad's genocide-regime and Russian imperialism continue it, but because the US wants it to continue and so rejects any reasonable offer. Now matter how at odds all that is with the *actual* US intervention of the last 2.5 years. Here is Brian Slocock taking the assertion apart when it was first raised in 2015: https://pulsemedia.org/2015/09/20/did-the-west-ignore-a-russian-offer-for-assad-to-step-down-as-president/ -Original Message- From: David McDonald via Marxism Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 11:36 PM To: Michael Karadjis Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now! _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now!
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis says Chomsky must have awakened. Nick Fredman says Chomsky is saying more or less what he's said before. I don't think Chomsky has awakened; I think he had to pee in the middle of the night and stumbled to the bathroom and while there had a little twingy thought about being on the wrong side and then went back to his coma. You will note that Chomsky still gives the Syrian people no agency. He's sorry they're dying so horribly but has no thought about what they might do about that. He casts a glance back restlessly to 2012, when, he says, there was a chance to negotiate an end to the regime based on a Russian proposal but it fell apart because no one in the West would go along with it, not the US, not the Brits, not the French. But he doesn't say why. Why is because the entire West fears the revolution more than it fears Assad; because there is no, and has been no, straightforward way to rid Syria of Assad without unleashing the forces of the revolution. Now a lot of people think this is bullshit, that if there ever was a revolution it has long since disappeared. But look at what happens when the regime allows a cease-fire: people take to the streets in numbers and demand the end of the regime. This is a book closed with seven seals to Chomsky. Everybody's a jihadi to him. Are we to be thankful that Chomsky, like Trump, thinks that Assad is terrible? Frankly this is exactly the same sort of moralism devoid of any politics that Chomsky has been serving up for 50 years. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now!
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/5/17 8:39 PM, Nick Fredman wrote: I can't say I've followed him in any detail or would agree with everything he's said but on the face of it these I think positions pretty sensible, consistently progressive and in tune with the facts as far as we can determine them. He undermines everything he says by endorsing Patrick Cockburn, who has been awful. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now!
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On the contrary I reckon he's just saying here what he's said for several years, whether you've agreed or disagreed with some or all of it. A search such as https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant=1=2=UTF-8#q=noam+chomsky+assad=20&* shows apart from his recent comments, comments from the last several years that include plenty of descriptors of Assad like "monstrous", "criminal" etc. — along with his scepticism of a US/NATO conspiracy or consistent policy of regime change, being critical of some rebels as reactionary jihadists, recognising there's some democratic elements left among the rebels, being guardedly supportive of the PYD-led movement, recognising Assad has to go by some process. I can't say I've followed him in any detail or would agree with everything he's said but on the face of it these I think positions pretty sensible, consistently progressive and in tune with the facts as far as we can determine them. On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:30 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Somebody must have woke him up. > > https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/5/the_assad_regime_is_a_moral > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt > ions/marxism/nick.j.fredman%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fwd: "The Assad Regime is a Moral Disgrace": Noam Chomsky on Ongoing Syrian War | Democracy Now!
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Somebody must have woke him up. https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/5/the_assad_regime_is_a_moral _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
