Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts

[John Reimann via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Our first responsibility is to try to figure out things. That's what I
tried to contribute towards.

As far as the Constituent Assembly: I really don't know enough about it
other than what I read in the capitalist media, which of course is not
reliable. Nor do I automatically trust what the left press has to say, as
much of this press is the same press that supports Assad, supported Brexit,
etc. If Manuel Barrera or anybody else has some reliable reports on the
Constituent Assembly - who they are, how it was organized, etc. - I think
we all would greatly benefit from reading it.

John Reimann

On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Manuel Barrera  wrote:

> John says: "I think it is correct to characterize the regime there as
> bonepartist.
> Chavez rose to power based on the support of a layer of mid and lower level
> military officers. He never had the support of the Venezuelan capitalist
> class, but neither was he based on the organizations of the working class.
> In other words, he hovered above or between the classes."
>
> Roberts doesn't seem to make any political characterizations, but does
> throw his economist weight behind the undermining of the Maduro
> administration all under the framework of a "discussion" not of Maduro's
> capitalsit machinations but on the event of the Constituuent Assembly.
> Reimann follows suit, not discussing the Constituent Assembly but whether
> Maduro is revolutionary (he's not) and the capitalist nature of his
> government (more aptly The government of which he is president).
> It may sound all revolutionary to criticize Maduro and his ostensible
> "bonapartist regime". Indeed, it is an accurate appraisal to state that the
> present Chavista-based government is a capitalist state resting on its
> support by the military and feigning alliance with workers and the
> oppressed.
>
> However, NONE of that is really the point. What of the Constituent
> Assembly as an answer to the rightist movement of the bosses seeking
> hegemony within the present government? What should working people, and
> revolutionaries, do. Right now? Oppose the Constituent Assembly because it
> isn't creating "dual power" or doing some other "more revolutionary" thing?
>
> In truth, it is fairly safe to "characterize" Maduro and even critically
> support his government against imperialist and rightwing attempts to
> undermine it. But what does the Constituent Assembly represent, not for
> Maduro or the right wing, but for the masses of Venezuela? Are we to arrive
> at some "sideline armchair quarterbacking" to criticize an effort that at
> the least seeks to find representation in government for the masses? Should
> revolutionaries revert to the time-honored litmus-testing about how this
> particular "answer" to right wing and imperialist attack simply isn't good
> enough for "our support"? Or, should revolutionaries seek to use this event
> of constituent assembly to press forward stronger, more democratic,
> economic, and political mobilzations of the masses in their (our)
> interests? What is happening in Venezuela is not some "lesser-evilism"
> electoral campaign but a protracted struggle in which the masses are indeed
> marginalized by the capitalist class And by the Chavista government and
> military. I see the Constituent Assembly as an avenue to pursue political
> efforts at mobilizing the masses. They must be mobilized, however, For
> Something. Either some idealistic notion of a (non-existent currently)
> "workers and people's government" , the Chavista government or the Capriles
> rightist movement to undermine the Chavistas. Working people do not have
> the "luxury" to choose and revolutionaries should not be so arrogant--and
> treacherous--as to have an  uncategorical answer.
> We Need To Support the Constituent Assembly AND, to the extent that Maduro
> and his ilk support it, we need to stand against imperialism and their
> agents in Venezuela as they try to engage an Allende-like coup.
>
>


-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Asata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and //
www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

John says: "I think it is correct to characterize the regime there as 
bonepartist.

Chavez rose to power based on the support of a layer of mid and lower level
military officers. He never had the support of the Venezuelan capitalist
class, but neither was he based on the organizations of the working class.
In other words, he hovered above or between the classes."

Roberts doesn't seem to make any political characterizations, but does throw 
his economist weight behind the undermining of the Maduro administration all 
under the framework of a "discussion" not of Maduro's capitalsit machinations 
but on the event of the Constituuent Assembly. Reimann follows suit, not 
discussing the Constituent Assembly but whether Maduro is revolutionary (he's 
not) and the capitalist nature of his government (more aptly The government of 
which he is president).
It may sound all revolutionary to criticize Maduro and his ostensible 
"bonapartist regime". Indeed, it is an accurate appraisal to state that the 
present Chavista-based government is a capitalist state resting on its support 
by the military and feigning alliance with workers and the oppressed.

However, NONE of that is really the point. What of the Constituent Assembly as 
an answer to the rightist movement of the bosses seeking hegemony within the 
present government? What should working people, and revolutionaries, do. Right 
now? Oppose the Constituent Assembly because it isn't creating "dual power" or 
doing some other "more revolutionary" thing?

In truth, it is fairly safe to "characterize" Maduro and even critically 
support his government against imperialist and rightwing attempts to undermine 
it. But what does the Constituent Assembly represent, not for Maduro or the 
right wing, but for the masses of Venezuela? Are we to arrive at some "sideline 
armchair quarterbacking" to criticize an effort that at the least seeks to find 
representation in government for the masses? Should revolutionaries revert to 
the time-honored litmus-testing about how this particular "answer" to right 
wing and imperialist attack simply isn't good enough for "our support"? Or, 
should revolutionaries seek to use this event of constituent assembly to press 
forward stronger, more democratic, economic, and political mobilzations of the 
masses in their (our) interests? What is happening in Venezuela is not some 
"lesser-evilism" electoral campaign but a protracted struggle in which the 
masses are indeed marginalized by the capitalist class And by the Chavi
 sta government and military. I see the Constituent Assembly as an avenue to 
pursue political efforts at mobilizing the masses. They must be mobilized, 
however, For Something. Either some idealistic notion of a (non-existent 
currently) "workers and people's government" , the Chavista government or the 
Capriles rightist movement to undermine the Chavistas. Working people do not 
have the "luxury" to choose and revolutionaries should not be so arrogant--and 
treacherous--as to have an  uncategorical answer.
We Need To Support the Constituent Assembly AND, to the extent that Maduro and 
his ilk support it, we need to stand against imperialism and their agents in 
Venezuela as they try to engage an Allende-like coup.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts

[John Reimann via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

People seem to take objection to the article by Michael Roberts on
Venezuela.

I think it is correct to characterize the regime there as bonepartist.
Chavez rose to power based on the support of a layer of mid and lower level
military officers. He never had the support of the Venezuelan capitalist
class, but neither was he based on the organizations of the working class.
In other words, he hovered above or between the classes.

Yes, he carried through many reforms that benefited the working class and
the poor, but they were not in control. And what is so strange about that?
Didn't Peron do the same thing? Or Lazaro Cardenas in Mexico?

A typical bonepartist regime can shift its balance over time. With the
economic crisis there, according to Roberts, the Maduro regime is resting
more directly on the military, such as for example the special priviliged
stores open to the soldiers. Do people deny that?

I also agree that as far as the economy goes, Chavez went part way. He
nationalized many major industries (and gave state support to worker
cooperatives in other cases). But what wasn't developed was a planned
economy. Under democratic state planning, the economy could have been
developed in a way that would have left it less dependent on oil exports.

None of this means support for Capriles or the right wing opposition. But
it also doesn't mean socialists should uncritically support Maduro.

John Reimann

-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Asata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and //
www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts Blog

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 8/4/17 7:44 AM, Jeff wrote:


Is that what you mean by "anti-Maduro left?" Seems rather hard to argue 
with.


No, it is this:

"So, as anti-government protestors fight the police and army on the 
streets and the Maduro government moves ever closer to outright 
authoritarian rule, the working class is left in the cold."


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts Blog

[Jeff via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 2017-08-03 14:01, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:


Michael Roberts aligns with the anti-Maduro left.


"Could this tragedy been avoided? Well, yes, if the Chavista revolution 
had not stopped at less than halfway, leaving the economy still 
predominantly in the control of capital.  Instead, the Chavista and 
Maduro governments relied on high oil prices and huge oil reserves to 
reduce poverty, while failing to transform the economy through 
productive investment, state ownership and planning."


Is that what you mean by "anti-Maduro left?" Seems rather hard to argue 
with.


- Jeff


https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/the-tragedy-of-venezuela/




_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Fwd: The tragedy of Venezuela | Michael Roberts Blog

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Michael Roberts aligns with the anti-Maduro left.

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/the-tragedy-of-venezuela/
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com