Re: [Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

That seems right to me. I’ll vote for Bernie in the primary & Stein in the 
general election  (assuming Trump-Clinton).


> On Mar 2, 2016, at 4:24 PM, A.R. G via Marxism  
> wrote:
> 
> So I'm curious, what's wrong with voting for Bernie in the primaries, and
> then, if he loses as half of the Marxist critics are suggesting, voting for
> a Green during the general election? It seems like the only way the issue
> will come up is if Bernie wins the primary. If that happens I still think
> it makes sense to vote for Bernie while separately organizing real
> opposition outside of the electoral system altogether in order to downplay
> the effects of the grassroots opposition deflating in the rare event that
> he takes the White House.
> 
> - Amith
> 
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Ratbag Media via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Physician Jill Stein, who is seeking the Green Party’s nomination for
>> president in 2016, has called Bernie Sanders’ 2016 Democratic presidential
>> campaign “*wonderful*” and stated that the Green Party “*will not attack
>> that campaign.*”
>> 
>> Jill Sten: “*But unfortunately he is in a party that has a track record for
>> basically sabotaging its rebels. It has done a good job of doing that in
>> the past from Dennis Kucinich to Jesse Jackson to Howard Dean, whether they
>> use a PR campaign like the ‘Dean’s scream’ to bring down the Dean
>> candidacy. Also Jesse Jackson was sabotaged by a PR by the DNC. The
>> Democratic Party has its ways of reigning people in if they try to rebel.
>> The bottom line is that we are in political system in the U.S., which is
>> funded by predatory banks and fossil fueled giants and war profiteers. So,
>> we really need to reject that system, we say to reject the lesser evil so
>> we can stand up and really fight for the greater good.*”
>> 
>> In a Monday interview on New England Public Radio, Stein said
>> <
>> http://nepr.net/news/2016/02/29/america-is-in-revolt-according-to-green-party-candidate-jill-stein/
>>> ,
>> “*What’s been happening in the Democratic Party is you’ll have a good
>> candidate who will run, but then the candidate gets reabsorbed and the
>> campaign becomes reabsorbed back into the Democratic Party. So it’s kind of
>> a fake left while the party becomes more corporatist, more militarist, and
>> continues to march to the right.*”
>> 
>> She called the grassroots movement that Sanders has tapped into a “
>> *rebellion*” that “*can’t simply be passed on to Hillary Clinton.*”


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Because people like Jill Stein, Howie Hawkins, Joel Kovel, Peter Camejo 
et al reach tens of thousands of people with a class struggle 
perspective even if they don't get elected. We are trying to change 
minds through the elections as well as winning office like Kshama Sawant 
did.


On 3/2/16 5:48 PM, A.R. G wrote:

Okay, but couldn't the same criticisms that apply to the DP's corruption
also apply to the electoral system as a whole? I feel like that sounds
more like an argument against voting altogether. What is the difference
between voting for a renegade Democrat who gets crushed by reactionaries
in his party vs voting for a Green who doesn't even factor into the
election at all?


_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[A.R. G via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Okay, but couldn't the same criticisms that apply to the DP's corruption
also apply to the electoral system as a whole? I feel like that sounds more
like an argument against voting altogether. What is the difference between
voting for a renegade Democrat who gets crushed by reactionaries in his
party vs voting for a Green who doesn't even factor into the election at
all?

- Amith

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 3/2/16 5:24 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>> So I'm curious, what's wrong with voting for Bernie in the primaries, and
>> then, if he loses as half of the Marxist critics are suggesting, voting
>> for
>> a Green during the general election? It seems like the only way the issue
>> will come up is if Bernie wins the primary. If that happens I still think
>> it makes sense to vote for Bernie while separately organizing real
>> opposition outside of the electoral system altogether in order to downplay
>> the effects of the grassroots opposition deflating in the rare event that
>> he takes the White House.
>>
>>
> The issue is whether it is crossing class lines to vote for a Democrat. Up
> until the Popular Front of 1935, socialists and Communists always voted on
> a class basis. With the Popular Front, that came to an end. To show you how
> committed the left was to that position, Upton Sinclair's son nearly broke
> with him in 1934 when he ran as a Democrat.
>
> Most of our problems today, especially in the USA, is how this line is
> blurred. With the DP having any kind of credibility, it makes it much
> harder for environmental movement, labor movement, et al to avoid
> cooptation.
>
>
>
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm
>
> Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers
> must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge
> their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party
> standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty
> phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates
> will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance
> of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the
> proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party
> will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more
> important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few
> reactionaries in the representative body. If the forces of democracy take
> decisive, terroristic action against the reaction from the very beginning,
> the reactionary influence in the election will already have been destroyed.
>
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

On 3/2/16 5:24 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:

So I'm curious, what's wrong with voting for Bernie in the primaries, and
then, if he loses as half of the Marxist critics are suggesting, voting for
a Green during the general election? It seems like the only way the issue
will come up is if Bernie wins the primary. If that happens I still think
it makes sense to vote for Bernie while separately organizing real
opposition outside of the electoral system altogether in order to downplay
the effects of the grassroots opposition deflating in the rare event that
he takes the White House.



The issue is whether it is crossing class lines to vote for a Democrat. 
Up until the Popular Front of 1935, socialists and Communists always 
voted on a class basis. With the Popular Front, that came to an end. To 
show you how committed the left was to that position, Upton Sinclair's 
son nearly broke with him in 1934 when he ran as a Democrat.


Most of our problems today, especially in the USA, is how this line is 
blurred. With the DP having any kind of credibility, it makes it much 
harder for environmental movement, labor movement, et al to avoid 
cooptation.



https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm

Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers 
must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to 
gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and 
party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the 
empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ 
candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of 
reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final 
analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the 
proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is 
infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the 
presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body. If the 
forces of democracy take decisive, terroristic action against the 
reaction from the very beginning, the reactionary influence in the 
election will already have been destroyed.

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[A.R. G via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

So I'm curious, what's wrong with voting for Bernie in the primaries, and
then, if he loses as half of the Marxist critics are suggesting, voting for
a Green during the general election? It seems like the only way the issue
will come up is if Bernie wins the primary. If that happens I still think
it makes sense to vote for Bernie while separately organizing real
opposition outside of the electoral system altogether in order to downplay
the effects of the grassroots opposition deflating in the rare event that
he takes the White House.

- Amith

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Ratbag Media via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> Physician Jill Stein, who is seeking the Green Party’s nomination for
> president in 2016, has called Bernie Sanders’ 2016 Democratic presidential
> campaign “*wonderful*” and stated that the Green Party “*will not attack
> that campaign.*”
>
> Jill Sten: “*But unfortunately he is in a party that has a track record for
> basically sabotaging its rebels. It has done a good job of doing that in
> the past from Dennis Kucinich to Jesse Jackson to Howard Dean, whether they
> use a PR campaign like the ‘Dean’s scream’ to bring down the Dean
> candidacy. Also Jesse Jackson was sabotaged by a PR by the DNC. The
> Democratic Party has its ways of reigning people in if they try to rebel.
> The bottom line is that we are in political system in the U.S., which is
> funded by predatory banks and fossil fueled giants and war profiteers. So,
> we really need to reject that system, we say to reject the lesser evil so
> we can stand up and really fight for the greater good.*”
>
> In a Monday interview on New England Public Radio, Stein said
> <
> http://nepr.net/news/2016/02/29/america-is-in-revolt-according-to-green-party-candidate-jill-stein/
> >,
> “*What’s been happening in the Democratic Party is you’ll have a good
> candidate who will run, but then the candidate gets reabsorbed and the
> campaign becomes reabsorbed back into the Democratic Party. So it’s kind of
> a fake left while the party becomes more corporatist, more militarist, and
> continues to march to the right.*”
>
> She called the grassroots movement that Sanders has tapped into a “
> *rebellion*” that “*can’t simply be passed on to Hillary Clinton.*”
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> Set your options at:
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

[Marxism] Greens get relating to Sanders right (when so many Marxists look away)

[Ratbag Media via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
#2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

Physician Jill Stein, who is seeking the Green Party’s nomination for
president in 2016, has called Bernie Sanders’ 2016 Democratic presidential
campaign “*wonderful*” and stated that the Green Party “*will not attack
that campaign.*”

Jill Sten: “*But unfortunately he is in a party that has a track record for
basically sabotaging its rebels. It has done a good job of doing that in
the past from Dennis Kucinich to Jesse Jackson to Howard Dean, whether they
use a PR campaign like the ‘Dean’s scream’ to bring down the Dean
candidacy. Also Jesse Jackson was sabotaged by a PR by the DNC. The
Democratic Party has its ways of reigning people in if they try to rebel.
The bottom line is that we are in political system in the U.S., which is
funded by predatory banks and fossil fueled giants and war profiteers. So,
we really need to reject that system, we say to reject the lesser evil so
we can stand up and really fight for the greater good.*”

In a Monday interview on New England Public Radio, Stein said
,
“*What’s been happening in the Democratic Party is you’ll have a good
candidate who will run, but then the candidate gets reabsorbed and the
campaign becomes reabsorbed back into the Democratic Party. So it’s kind of
a fake left while the party becomes more corporatist, more militarist, and
continues to march to the right.*”

She called the grassroots movement that Sanders has tapped into a “
*rebellion*” that “*can’t simply be passed on to Hillary Clinton.*”
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com