Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
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Couldn't agree more with Mark --- us "oldsters" have seen big increases in
militancy and real victories (the Indochinese victories probably the most
dramatic and important --- no matter what happened post liberation) --- and
an outrageously successful establishment/right-wing/fascist {?]
counter-revolution.I would surmise that aside from those still able to
provide legal and/or medical assistance, the best we can do is offer (with
more humility than many of us are capable of [irony intended]) some
historical perspectives ---
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * To further call attention to what I wrote here on Monday, I read that the IDF is training many American police and sheriffs departments. https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/pro-palestinian-group-says-idf-trains-us-police-in-racist-tactics-629937 The IDF, whose training is designed and mandated by the Israeli government and who are trained specifically to immobilize, and destroy Palestinians and Arabs generally. If you were a Palestinian personally who had suffered and who had seen your neighbors and family members killed, maimed and houses destroyed at the hands of the IDF, would you be so naive as to call for reform? John Reimann wrote Here's an article of mine on the vote of the Minneapolis City Council to disband the police: https://oaklandsocialist.com/2020/06/08/minneapolis-city-council-votes-to-disband-police-will-they/ First of all, the move to defund or abolish the police department eludes and obscures the real problem: as John says, the class relations are going to remain the same. And to add to what John notes here, the police have greatly increased in numbers from my childhood in the late twenties, when there was one cop in my neighborhood, walking a beat, and acquainted with and generally friendly received by most. That changed quickly as the Depression deepened, and with the coming of the patrol car and night sticks replaced by lethal weapons. And the police have been given increased latitude by the power-wielders over the years because the system has insurmountable problems in maintaining social control. Just like the army, police are recruited from the working class or the otherwise 'expendables,' who are faced with poverty and have no other jobs available, and who are young, often rural and usually unaware of the workings of the world. Just like the army, in which I spent three miserable years, the police are taught to hate, then they're taught to kill those they've been taught to hate, and just like the army, then they're assured, as was Frank Sheeran in The Irishman, that the army looks the other way, in fact expects you to do exactly what you did, and you're home free, with a lifetime of PTSD. This in a system of rigid discipline, where the only answer is yes SIR, and where you're also taught that you're there to protect your buddies in a crowd control situation, whatever the effect on anyone else. So almost anything goes, and you know you have department and powerful police union backup. Above all, your mandate is to protect property, which absolutely doesn't mean house and property in a ghetto neighborhood, You're there to instill fear in an uncontrollable social situation. So who's going to call the out-of-control cops to 'protect and serve,' when they are most likely going to make things worse, if they show up at all? The only possible benefit of this reshuffle that I see is to mollify the liberal elements in the middle class, and the less checked-out among the afflicted, and to force the police union to back off and make a few compromises. But how long does that last? And to what end? How long, for instance, have liberal and neighborhood groups tried to implement community control, with no success and no change? Property, wealth and its unequal distribution, is the basic problem, obviously, as John notes. It's endemic and unavoidable in this system, where the poor exist in good part as a reserve army of labor, and as the inevitable result of any system of devil take the hindmost. And that's where the discussion should be going and where the pressure should be applied. Anything less is dragging out the problem, really just hiding problem and solution and making it worse. The impulsion toward increasing militarization of the police, as the jobs disappear, worker organizing becomes ever more difficult, and inequality escalates, is not going to go away under the system of capitalist exploitation and inequality. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Whatever becomes of the reforms, the point is people in massive numbers have gone into motion and learned how to win victories. That hasn't been easily forgotten in the past and it won't be forgotten now. Most likely, there will be the usual processes--to get them off the streets so as not to embarass Biden (over "defunding the police," etc.) The other day, a whole coven of corporate entities announced that they were going to throw massive amounts of money into the fight against racism, which means astroturfing on a grand scale. But those hundreds of thousands who went into the streets will remember what they've done, and will go back out there much more readily having done it once. The issue is leadership, of course. There must be organization confident enough to structure a demostratic dynamic that isn't there yet, something that will actually spread that sense of gaining power through independent actions. The impulse for such a thing is going to come out of the current movements, but they are a very mixed bag politically, and are going to carry this to the next level unevenly. But we--folks my age--should be feeling very fortunate to have lasted long enough to see at least the start of something this promising. Cheers, Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It is remarkable how irrelevant both the Leftist vanguard groupuscules and the NGO industry have been with what is the first serious rebellion in American history in probably 40 years. I am on another NGO-dominated list-serv and seeing people post empty statements that provide no tangible support as well as offering trainings over arcane legal topics that have no relevance to what people on the street can do is quite hilarious. It's like a struggle to pretend to be relevant. I suppose those of us who are serious should learn from their mistake and start being more humble about our own irrelevance. For me, that has meant trying to limit my involvement in lefty causes to services I can actually provide (like legal defense). I think if someone is interested in forming some sort of political party to channel the revolutionary spirit it should be learned through looking at the people in Minneapolis and how they have managed to organize themselves. And then contrast that with the dual Leftist(TM) and 501(c)3-inc. organizations that have corrupted and misguided people who want a better future. Amith R. Gupta On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:04 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 6/8/20 7:57 PM, STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism wrote: > > But is there a party somewhere in all of that? SR > > I don't even see the embryo of the embryo of one. That's a steep price > humanity is paying for the idiotic vanguardist pretensions that we were > guilty of in the 60s and 70s. There are thousands of unorganized > Marxists in the USA today. God willing, they will rise to the occasion > and cohere. > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 6/8/20 7:57 PM, STEVEN ROBINSON via Marxism wrote: But is there a party somewhere in all of that? SR I don't even see the embryo of the embryo of one. That's a steep price humanity is paying for the idiotic vanguardist pretensions that we were guilty of in the 60s and 70s. There are thousands of unorganized Marxists in the USA today. God willing, they will rise to the occasion and cohere. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * GOOD PARALLEL, LOUIS '' "This was our version of the Tunisian fruit vendor self-immolating." --- I do think some of the reforms might make life easier for African Americans --- a few cops going to prison might work wonders --- (David Levering Lewis who put together an anthology of lynching articles --- AT THE HANDS OF PERSONS UNKNOWN (I think) was the title ---once said that lynching stopped when the forces of law and order actually were willing to shoot people in lynch mobs --- that stopped the practice cold!) _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * But is there a party somewhere in all of that? SR > On 06/08/2020 4:29 PM Louis Proyect via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > wrote: > > > Over the next decade the class struggle will conceivably deepen to the > point where you will see genuine manifestations of dual power, not soup > kitchens but total control over entire neighborhoods like Harlem or maybe all > of NYC. In such cases, people will resort to armed self-defense. I know all > thissounds far-fetched but who would have thought 2 years ago that we'd have > higher unemployment than in the Great Depression with massivemobilizations > against capitalist misrule over another black person being murdered by the > cops? This was our version of the Tunisian fruit vendorself-immolating. > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/srobin21%40comcast.net _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 6/8/20 6:35 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: ow up at all? The only possible benefit of this reshuffle that I see is to mollify the liberal elements in the middle class, and the less checked-out among the afflicted, and to force the police union to back off and make a few compromises. But how long does that last? And to what end? How long, for instance, have liberal and neighborhood groups tried to implement community control, with no success and no change? I don't expect any of these reforms to be meaningful. Over the next decade the class struggle will conceivably deepen to the point where you will see genuine manifestations of dual power, not soup kitchens but total control over entire neighborhoods like Harlem or maybe all of NYC. In such cases, people will resort to armed self-defense. I know all this sounds far-fetched but who would have thought 2 years ago that we'd have higher unemployment than in the Great Depression with massive mobilizations against capitalist misrule over another black person being murdered by the cops? This was our version of the Tunisian fruit vendor self-immolating. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * John Reimann wrote Here's an article of mine on the vote of the Minneapolis City Council to disband the police: https://oaklandsocialist.com/2020/06/08/minneapolis-city-council-votes-to-disband-police-will-they/ First of all, the move to defund or abolish the police department eludes and obscures the real problem: as John says, the class relations are going to remain the same. And to add to what John notes here, the police have greatly increased in numbers from my childhood in the late twenties, when there was one cop in my neighborhood, walking a beat, and acquainted with and generally friendly received by most. That changed quickly as the Depression deepened, and with the coming of the patrol car and night sticks replaced by lethal weapons. And the police have been given increased latitude by the power-wielders over the years because the system has insurmountable problems in maintaining social control. Just like the army, police are recruited from the working class or the otherwise 'expendables,' who are faced with poverty and have no other jobs available, and who are young, often rural and usually unaware of the workings of the world. Just like the army, in which I spent three miserable years, the police are taught to hate, then they're taught to kill those they've been taught to hate, and just like the army, then they're assured, as was Frank Sheeran in The Irishman, that the army looks the other way, in fact expects you to do exactly what you did, and you're home free, with a lifetime of PTSD. This in a system of rigid discipline, where the only answer is yes SIR, and where you're also taught that you're there to protect your buddies in a crowd control situation, whatever the effect on anyone else. So almost anything goes, and you know you have department and powerful police union backup. Above all, your mandate is to protect property, which absolutely doesn't mean house and property in a ghetto neighborhood, You're there to instill fear in an uncontrollable social situation. So who's going to call the out-of-control cops to 'protect and serve,' when they are most likely going to make things worse, if they show up at all? The only possible benefit of this reshuffle that I see is to mollify the liberal elements in the middle class, and the less checked-out among the afflicted, and to force the police union to back off and make a few compromises. But how long does that last? And to what end? How long, for instance, have liberal and neighborhood groups tried to implement community control, with no success and no change? Property, wealth and its unequal distribution, is the basic problem, obviously, as John notes. It's endemic and unavoidable in this system, where the poor exist in good part as a reserve army of labor, and as the inevitable result of any system of devil take the hindmost. And that's where the discussion should be going and where the pressure should be applied. Anything less is dragging out the problem, really just hiding problem and solution and making it worse. The impulsion toward increasing militarization of the police, as the jobs disappear, worker organizing becomes ever more difficult, and inequality escalates, is not going to go away under the system of capitalist exploitation and inequality. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Minneapolis city council votes to disband police. Will they?
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Here's an article of mine on the vote of the Minneapolis City Council to disband the police: "When the police make a high-profile arrest, they make him or her walk in public through the throng of reporters. On June 6, Minneapolis’s reform minded young mayor, Jacob Frey, refused to commit to disbanding the police in a crowd of thousands. He was booed and forced to do a “people’s perp walk” through the crowd and back to his condo. Shortly after that, the Minneapolis City Council voted to disband their police force. This is attracting a lot of attention. But what does it really mean? Oaklandsocialist talked with a union steward and anti-police brutality activist in Minneapolis. We will call him “Activist”. He warned: “We have to be prepared for them to do some things we wouldn’t expect.” In other words, not allow those steps to undermine or divert the power of the movement. He explained: “they’re not going to get rid of policing… they’re going to move to some unique form of policing. The class relations are going to remain the same.…” He said that he wouldn’t be surprised if “abolish the police would win a popular vote among high school students.” He continued: “Because this has become a popular slogan, it will be difficult to just dress up the MPD…. They’re going to have to do some major changes….”" Read full article: https://oaklandsocialist.com/2020/06/08/minneapolis-city-council-votes-to-disband-police-will-they/ -- *“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” *Felicity Dowling Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
