Re: [Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-12 Thread Steffan Wyn-Jones via Marxism 

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MK and others have already dealt well with the 'truth' of this. Just to 
note though that Wikileaks themselves were also part of this false 
conspiracist narrative. While Mint Press News etc., embarrassingly 
called the email to Clinton from Rubin a 'Hillary Clinton memo,' 
Wikileaks' Twitter account also deliberately sought to give the 
impression that the email was a 'Clinton memo' by tweeting out an 
attachment which was attached to the email and presenting it as 'the 
Hillary email.' Just a few days ago they tweeted again about 'the 
Clinton memo that killed half a million people.'


https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073

That goes rather beyond 'revealing' and into deliberately spreading 
falsehoods.


https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073

https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073httpht


https://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073

tps://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073s://twitter.com/charliearchy/status/1083882823432323073




On 12/01/2019 07:23, mkaradjis via Marxism wrote:

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Patrick, noone cast doubt on the memo. The problem is the interpretation:
the Mintpress article, and the conspiracist universe, decided it was an
email from Clinton. But it was an email to Clinton. I gave the link to the
public article by James Rubin. There is no evidence that it was Clinton's
view; she never argued that way, loet alone acted that way in office.
Wikileaks can only reveal the memos etc. The significance we need to
determine case by case. As I said, this was one of probably 10s of 1000s of
policy suggestions sent *to* politicians in power, not a message *from* one
of them.

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 6:05 PM Patrick Bond via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:



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Re: [Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-11 Thread mkaradjis via Marxism 
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Patrick, noone cast doubt on the memo. The problem is the interpretation:
the Mintpress article, and the conspiracist universe, decided it was an
email from Clinton. But it was an email to Clinton. I gave the link to the
public article by James Rubin. There is no evidence that it was Clinton's
view; she never argued that way, loet alone acted that way in office.
Wikileaks can only reveal the memos etc. The significance we need to
determine case by case. As I said, this was one of probably 10s of 1000s of
policy suggestions sent *to* politicians in power, not a message *from* one
of them.

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 6:05 PM Patrick Bond via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 2019/01/12 6:09 AM, Stephen Shalom via Marxism wrote:
> > ... Mintpress writer Whitney Webb has quoted from this document multiple
> times
> > Sept 2018
> >
> https://www.mintpressnews.com/new-russian-s-300-air-defense-system-to-make-syria-untouchable-but-israel-seems-ready-to-test-it/249774/
> ,
> > Feb. 2018
> >
> https://www.mintpressnews.com/israel-preps-for-syrian-war-with-golans-oil-and-water-in-its-sights/237566/
> ,
> > and Sept. 2017
> >
> https://www.mintpressnews.com/why-conflict-syria-was-always-israels-war/231532/
> > implying but not explicitly saying it was written by Clinton.
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:24 PM mkaradjis via Marxism <
> > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> > The article in the conspiracist tabloid Mintpress begins by saying that
> > this Wikileaks "Clinton email" "has not gotten the attention it
> deserves."
> > Small wonder, since anybody seriously interested at the time it was
> > published would have done about 10 minutes research and found it wasn't
> an
> > email by Clinton, but an email to Clinton, like 1000s of emails with
> policy
> > suggestions and advice that circulate each year, the overwhelming
> majority
> > of which wind up in obscurity or the trash.
>
> Comrades, on this general point of whether material on Wikileaks is
> reliable, surely we start with that presumption?
>
> On the general point of whether a U.S. State Department cable or email
> that Assange has opened up for the world to see is valuable, surely this
> is one of the great windows into contemporary imperialism? I use the
> State Dept cables and emails occasionally and encourage others in
> academia and anti-imperial activism to, as well (for some reason, most
> social scientists get squeamish and ignore Wikileaks as a source, as
> Assange has pointed out). We should all be enormously grateful to
> Wikileaks, via first Chelsea Manning and then second, whomever in 2016
> hacked the Clinton emails.
>
> On the specific question of how to interpret a given State Department
> cable or email, this one on Syria looks quite frank and plausible. But
> sure, if there were competing interpretations from other forces within
> State, the Pentagon or Presidency, then please enlighten us.
>
> I'm an opponent of conspiracy theory, just as much as you other
> structural Marxists. But are there ways to handle bits and pieces of
> evidence that would fit this kind of memo into some sort of bigger
> picture, rather than cast doubt on it?
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-11 Thread Patrick Bond via Marxism 

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On 2019/01/12 6:09 AM, Stephen Shalom via Marxism wrote:

... Mintpress writer Whitney Webb has quoted from this document multiple times
Sept 2018
https://www.mintpressnews.com/new-russian-s-300-air-defense-system-to-make-syria-untouchable-but-israel-seems-ready-to-test-it/249774/,
Feb. 2018
https://www.mintpressnews.com/israel-preps-for-syrian-war-with-golans-oil-and-water-in-its-sights/237566/,
and Sept. 2017
https://www.mintpressnews.com/why-conflict-syria-was-always-israels-war/231532/
implying but not explicitly saying it was written by Clinton.

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:24 PM mkaradjis via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
The article in the conspiracist tabloid Mintpress begins by saying that
this Wikileaks "Clinton email" "has not gotten the attention it deserves."
Small wonder, since anybody seriously interested at the time it was
published would have done about 10 minutes research and found it wasn't an
email by Clinton, but an email to Clinton, like 1000s of emails with policy
suggestions and advice that circulate each year, the overwhelming majority
of which wind up in obscurity or the trash.


Comrades, on this general point of whether material on Wikileaks is 
reliable, surely we start with that presumption?


On the general point of whether a U.S. State Department cable or email 
that Assange has opened up for the world to see is valuable, surely this 
is one of the great windows into contemporary imperialism? I use the 
State Dept cables and emails occasionally and encourage others in 
academia and anti-imperial activism to, as well (for some reason, most 
social scientists get squeamish and ignore Wikileaks as a source, as 
Assange has pointed out). We should all be enormously grateful to 
Wikileaks, via first Chelsea Manning and then second, whomever in 2016 
hacked the Clinton emails.


On the specific question of how to interpret a given State Department 
cable or email, this one on Syria looks quite frank and plausible. But 
sure, if there were competing interpretations from other forces within 
State, the Pentagon or Presidency, then please enlighten us.


I'm an opponent of conspiracy theory, just as much as you other 
structural Marxists. But are there ways to handle bits and pieces of 
evidence that would fit this kind of memo into some sort of bigger 
picture, rather than cast doubt on it?



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Re: [Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-11 Thread Stephen Shalom via Marxism 
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Just to be clear: Michael Karadjis is not the first to note the authorship
of this document. Snopes
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-clinton-say-syria-israel-leaked-e-mail/
and Politfact
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/apr/20/yournewswirecom/hillary-clinton/
wrote pieces in April 2018, the last time the document was circulating on
the web. (It also did in 2017 and 2016 as well.)

Mintpress writer Whitney Webb has quoted from this document multiple times
Sept 2018
https://www.mintpressnews.com/new-russian-s-300-air-defense-system-to-make-syria-untouchable-but-israel-seems-ready-to-test-it/249774/,
Feb. 2018
https://www.mintpressnews.com/israel-preps-for-syrian-war-with-golans-oil-and-water-in-its-sights/237566/,
and Sept. 2017
https://www.mintpressnews.com/why-conflict-syria-was-always-israels-war/231532/
implying but not explicitly saying it was written by Clinton.

Steve

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:24 PM mkaradjis via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> The article in the conspiracist tabloid Mintpress begins by saying that
> this Wikileaks "Clinton email" "has not gotten the attention it deserves."
> Small wonder, since anybody seriously interested at the time it was
> published would have done about 10 minutes research and found it wasn't an
> email by Clinton, but an email to Clinton, like 1000s of emails with policy
> suggestions and advice that circulate each year, the overwhelming majority
> of which wind up in obscurity or the trash.
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-11 Thread mkaradjis via Marxism 
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The article in the conspiracist tabloid Mintpress begins by saying that
this Wikileaks "Clinton email" "has not gotten the attention it deserves."
Small wonder, since anybody seriously interested at the time it was
published would have done about 10 minutes research and found it wasn't an
email by Clinton, but an email to Clinton, like 1000s of emails with policy
suggestions and advice that circulate each year, the overwhelming majority
of which wind up in obscurity or the trash.

Here's the original; it was actually a little more public than most,
because James Rubin published it in Foreign Policy:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/06/04/the-real-reason-to-intervene-in-syria/

If Clinton had held those views, she could have said so. Instead, in that
same year (2012) she was more interested in claiming that to arm the rebels
would effectively be supporting "al-Qaida," and Hamas, which “is now
supporting the opposition.” If “you're trying to figure out do you have the
elements of an opposition that is actually viable, that we don't see.”


But imagine, Mintpress spreading untruths and conspiracist rubbish! Surely
never!

On Sat, 12 Jan. 2019, 9:35 am Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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>
> On 1/11/19 5:15 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
> > https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18328#efmAdyAr8
> >
> >
> https://www.mintpressnews.com/this-2012-clinton-memo-that-killed-half-a-million-people-in-syria/253775/
> >
>
> Lazare is a conspiracy theorist. Many years ago, he was a member of the
> sect that would go on to form WSWS.org. Conspiracy theory in these
> circles is an occupational hazard.
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Re: [Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-11 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism 

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On 1/11/19 5:15 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18328#efmAdyAr8

https://www.mintpressnews.com/this-2012-clinton-memo-that-killed-half-a-million-people-in-syria/253775/



Lazare is a conspiracy theorist. Many years ago, he was a member of the 
sect that would go on to form WSWS.org. Conspiracy theory in these 
circles is an occupational hazard.

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[Marxism] This memo is being circulated online from Wikileaks re: Syria and ousting Assad.

2019-01-11 Thread Andrew Stewart via Marxism 
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https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18328#efmAdyAr8

https://www.mintpressnews.com/this-2012-clinton-memo-that-killed-half-a-million-people-in-syria/253775/
-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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