[Marxism] [UCE] Re: To combat left anti-semitism, Corbynism must change the way it sees the world

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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The problem with the referenced article is that it would also be an
indictment of Bernie Sanders, since he also views US capitalism as a rigged
system.  Berniecrats don't seem to fall into conspiratorial, let alone
anti-Semitic tropes about capitalism.  And as far as the mural is
concerned, only two of the six bankers depicted are Jews, which is a very
atypical (and sophisticated) anti-Semitic representation.  Many Jews,
including myself,  would not initially see it as anti-Semitic, let alone
Corbyn.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 3/28/18 1:51 PM, A.R. G wrote:
>
>> True, but there isn't much one can do when these kinds of propagandists
>> are looking for "anti-Semitism," particularly when they've cast a wide net.
>> For one, even where left groups have published people who have issued
>> anti-Semitic commentary (like Atzmon and Shamir) the response and process
>> of disowning is much stronger than, say, Islamophobic rhetoric which is
>> also found regularly in "left" scholarship. In other cases the impression
>> of anti-Semitism is all that is needed, such as in the hoaxes about
>> Palestine student organizations at US campuses. Even where there is no
>> ammunition, they will fabricate it. That is why these
>> exaggerated/fabricated campaigns about left anti-Semitism should be
>> understood not as a simple rhetorical issue but as one that deals
>> fundamentally with anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism among leftists/social
>> democrats in the US and Europe.
>>
>> Amith R. Gupta
>>
>
> The problem is that Corbyn is under the influence of some really stupid
> people like Seumas Milne. Milne is not an anti-Semite but he certainly is a
> conspiracy theorist. That mural was positively soaked in the meatheaded
> talking points of a thousand different knuckle-dragging websites.
>
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Re: [Marxism] To combat left anti-semitism, Corbynism must change the way it sees the world

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Ockerman's painting depicted six capitalist figures: two Rockefellers, JP
Morgan, Crowley, Rothschild and Warburg.  It's absurd to blame Corbyn for
not having seen it as anti-Semitic.  To do that requires one to be a
specialist in the field, and that was something he never claimed to be.

Gupta is totally wrong on the term "Zio,"  Klansman David Duke coined it
back in the 1990s as an anti-Semitic slur, and it was used that way by the
leaders of the Chicago Dyke March last year against a trans Jewish
reporter, Gretchen Rachel Hammond, who reported honestly about the
anti-Semitic maneuverings of the March organizers.  Knowing that, Amith, if
you are still using the term, then yes, you are an anti-Semite.  I say that
as part of the BDS movement who is proud that its leaders expelled
anti-Semites from its ranks back in 2012.

--> Sheldon

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 8:09 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 2018-03-28 18:40, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
>
> https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/03/combat-left
>> -anti-semitism-corbynism-must-change-way-it-sees-world
>>
>
> I think the article that started this discussion is rather crumby and
> won't address it. It focuses on Corbyn who I do not believe is antisemitic
> nor is antisemitism in the labor party an important actual issue. I have no
> doubt that the charge of antisemitism is just being used to attack the left
> wing of that party as it is routinely used against supporters of Palestine
> thus including (essentially) the entire far left. A party as large and
> diverse as the British Labor party is bound to have individuals with
> antisemitic (among other evil) views, and not being a member or even living
> in Britain I would have to trust them to do their own housecleaning in
> these regards. If Corbyn made a mistake (it couldn't have been any more
> than that) then he can and should address his error and move on. And the
> proposition in the article, which I've heard before from some of the
> "anti-Deutsch" (pro-zionist leftists, especially in Germany), that
> antisemitism is "not racism" but something unique, is a despicable way of
> separating anti-racist struggles from each other and privileging one
> particular minority which does not (at least in Britain) face significant
> oppression.
>
> Having said that, however, I don't think we can just ignore the issue.
> Because there are really two potential problems: 1) Actual antisemitism
> within the left; and 2) The perception of antisemitism by the left. I don't
> think that (1) is a widespread problem and I expect every left group to
> keep it that way. However the perception of antisemitism is clearly hurtful
> to the left. NOT because it will drive Jews away from the left, since
> left-wing Jews understand as well as anyone why these spurious charges are
> so frequently heard from our enemies (and sometimes parroted within the
> left). But because any form of racism is so opposite our values and the
> message that we are trying to convey, so that if one form of racism is
> tolerated or excused then one would conclude that we have no principles and
> might equally find other racist ideas acceptable. More specifically, if our
> opposition to Israel is seen as a result of antisemitism (as is frequently
> charged) or if antisemitic ideas are seen as legitimate (or excusable) in
> the fight for Palestinian self-determination, then the left may suffer
> greatly due to that perception alone.
>
> It isn't our fault, but it is our problem. I think that what has changed
> since, say, 20 years ago, is the rise of the alt-right (and such forces) in
> conjunction with the red-brown alliance. When leftists engage in conspiracy
> theories (which they have to in order to justify their awful positions on
> Syria, for instance!) and these are the same conspiracy theories advanced
> by the far right, then we ALL become identified with the sort of thinking
> which includes antisemitism among other ideologies that have nothing to do
> with the left or our values. A case in point is our insisting -- correctly!
> -- that "anti-Zionism is not antisemitism." As we've been arguing for a
> long time, we're against Zionism because it oppresses the Palestinians and
> we call for solutions that end the oppression of Palestine and these would
> also b

Re: [Marxism] To combat left anti-semitism, Corbynism must change the way it sees the world

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Louis Proyect and I have both pointed out in past threads here your, to put
it charitably, hostile attitudes toward Jews.  I saw your crap in
Mondoweiss about the Chicago Dyke March, so I knew a confrontation between
us was just a matter of time.

Yes, Tony Greenstein used the term "Zio". So what? I confronted him and his
supporters about that directly on the Jewish Voice for Labour blog, and no
serious rebuttal was offered.  "Zio" has an undeniable history with the KKK
and US neo-Nazi groups prior to the current kerfuffle in Britain.  There
are lots of tweets where Greenstein makes not only anti-Semitic, but
anti-gay and misogynistic statements as well.  He's no Moshe Machover, whom
I defended.

You don't like the fact that the BDS demands are compatible with Democratic
Zionism?  Too bad.  The BDS movement has expelled anti-Semites before - are
you afraid you might be next?  Maybe you should just save yourself the
trouble and remove yourself from the BDS movement, opposing it from the
"Left."

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 9:04 AM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> *Specifically, this: http://socialistcurrents.org/?p=2914
>
> ^^^Outside of the obvious racism that underpins comments like:
>
>  "Demand #3 [The right of Palestinians to return to their lands] appears to
> be the “tricky one”, since, on first glance, it plays into fears that it
> mandates Israel allowing a flood of Palestinian refugees that would turn
> Israel’s Jewish majority into a minority. *Not only is this highly
> unlikely, since Jews have not flooded Israel under the Jewish Law of
> Return, but the demand’s wording only deals with the principle of the Right
> of Return and does not concern itself with its actual implementation.*"
>
> There is also the obvious thread that runs through Sheldon's entire
> worldview about Zionism in that he attempts to make it compatible with
> liberalism and democracy. It is a racist whitewash and would explain why
> Sheldon Ranz thinks Tony Greenstein is anti-Semitic for using the prefix
> "Zio" which means "Zionist". That is not being "part" of the BDS Movement,
> that is co-opting it with bigotry against the very people he claims to be
> defending. Gross.
>
> That is putting aside all of the other bizarre and straightforwardly racist
> comments he has made in prior discussions.
>
> Ironically, Sheldon proves the point I made earlier in this thread: that
> anti-Semitism is treated exceptionally on the left while other forms of
> racism are tolerated, and much if not all of the fuss is itself rooted in
> anti-Arab bigotry that Sheldon Ranz embodies with his unwelcome "support".
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 8:54 AM, A.R. G  wrote:
>
> > " Gupta is totally wrong on the term "Zio,"  Klansman David Duke coined
> it
> > back in the 1990s as an anti-Semitic slur, and it was used that way by
> the
> > leaders of the Chicago Dyke March last year against a trans Jewish
> > reporter, Gretchen Rachel Hammond, who reported honestly about the
> > anti-Semitic maneuverings of the March organizers.  Knowing that, Amith,
> if
> > you are still using the term, then yes, you are an anti-Semite.  I say
> that
> > as part of the BDS movement who is proud that its leaders expelled
> > anti-Semites from its ranks back in 2012."
> >
> > "Zio" is a quote from Tony Greenstein. Linking it to David Duke is
> > shameless guilt by association and proves Greenstein's point (that you
> are
> > allowing actual racists to commandeer the discourse around Palestine).
> >
> > Either way, based on your batshit accusations of anti-Semitism against
> the
> > Palestine solidarity movement, your willingness to believe things that I
> > know from personal knowledge to be lies about Palestinian refugees, your
> > failure to even check who you are speaking about when you read quotes on
> > this list-serv, and the racist comments you have made about credibility
> > 

Re: [Marxism] To combat left anti-semitism, Corbynism must change the way it sees the world

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

 Sheldon Ranz other post
> > explaining his ideology <http://socialistcurrents.org/?p=2914>, the
> > reason he thinks BDS liberalism is compatible with his racist ideology is
> > for the same reason he thinks his racist ideology is liberal. These are
> the
> > ideas that are taught in Israeli government-sponsored civics classes. It
> is
> > complete nonsense. It is like someone arguing that white supremacy is
> > compatible with Martin Luther King by sanitizing white supremacy as a
> > liberal idea.
> >
> > And of course, despite Sheldon's bizarre comments it is important for
> > comrades to call out those who put themselves in charge of leaderless
> > movements.There is absolutely nothing supportive about Sheldon's
> > statements. They are openly racist. They defend the rights of
> Palestinians
> > by saying they won't actually be implemented. Even assuming that it is
> true
> > as a strategic matter, there is absolutely no reason that someone on the
> > Left, let alone someone involved with the Palestine solidarity movement,
> > should be validating the notion that there is something wrong with
> > Palestinians returning to present-day Israel. Imagine someone who puts
> > himself in charge of the immigrants rights movement and then gives
> speeches
> > saying "Don't worry immigrants won't actually come here so go ahead and
> > keep being xenophobic, it's totally fine". That is quite literally what
> > Sheldon argues about the "tricky" demand that Palestinians be entitled to
> > return to their own lands without being stopped by a colonial border.
> >
> > Those of you who followed the controversy about the Chicago Dyke March
> > know that it was, in fact, slanderous, as I documented here:
> > http://mondoweiss.net/2017/07/semitism-disproved-accounts/
> >
> > We should question why someone who pretends to support Palestine as a
> > "Zionist" would defend the smears of a self-declared pro-Israel lobbyist
> > who has literally done the same thing multiple times. For example, the
> > woman who lied about the Chicago Dyke March also falsely claimed that
> > leftists disrupted a Jewish prayer service when they actually disrupted a
> > pro-Israel lobbying reception: https://jqyouth.
> > blogspot.com/2016/01/jqy-at-national-lgbtq-creating-change.html
> >
> > Whether it comes from active Zionist advocates or Zionist "allies" like
> > Sheldon Ranz, it should be rejected. I don't even know why I would have
> to
> > argue this on a Marxist list-serv. Zionists are not friends of the left,
> > they are racist poison and if Sheldon's comments about Palestinians had
> > been made about Jews there would be no ambiguity about how unwelcome he
> > should be.
> >
> > Amith R. Gupta
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 10:29 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
> > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> >> *
> >>
> >> On 3/29/18 10:06 AM, Sheldon Ranz via Marxism wrote:
> >>
> >>> Louis Proyect and I have both pointed out in past threads here your, to
> >>> put
> >>> it charitably, hostile attitudes toward Jews.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Huh? I did no such thing.
> >>
> >> Frankly, my only concern about Mear One's mural is not that the threat
> it
> >> poses to the Jews but to the left. I get angry over Corbyn's lack of
> >> defense, to put it into a sports context, not over his supposedly
> >> encouraging pogroms. If you really want to understand what anti-Semitism
> >> can do, go see the movie "A Bag of Marbles" about 2 boys who denied
> being
> >> Jewish during the Vichy regime.
> >>
> >> My main interest is in building the left. That is why I write criticisms
> >> of ultraleftism, such as embodied in the "punch a Nazi" tropes or George
> >> C-M's appearances on the Tucker Carlson show.
> >>
> >> I am absolutely in favor of Corbyn becoming the Prime Minister of
> >> England. Anything that gets in the way has to be moved aside. He has
> >> surrounded himself with the conspiracy-mongering louts of the Stop the
> War
> >> Coalition. They are not acting as the proper antenna he needs to ward
> off
> >> these threats. In fact, they serve as blinders.
> >> _
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> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [Marxism] "Tolerating racism"

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"That is literally all I have been doing."  I suppose it would be  helpful
if you could provide us with one example of a post where you protested the
Left for tolerating a form of racism that's not anti-Semitism.

"Sheldon Ranz thinks Tony Greenstein is anti-Semitic for using the prefix
"Zio" which means "Zionist". No it does not mean Zionist.  It means 'evil
Jew' and it was first popularized by Klansman David Duke long before Tony
Greenstein. Greenstein has been made aware of this.  The fact that you
can't even come to grips with that basic fact makes you the troll.

"Sheldon's entire  worldview about Zionism in that he attempts to make it
compatible with liberalism and democracy."  Israel's Declaration of
Independence is compatible with liberalism and democracy.  As for
"Zionism"'s compatibility with those two, who the hells knows what you mean
by Zionism?

Needless to say, I can't speak for Jeff.

Sheldon Ranz

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:28 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> "If you know of forms of racism that are "tolerated" by the left, then why
> the hell aren't you fighting THAT racism? Can't you speak up when you see
> such injustice, AS THE REST OF US TRY TO? "
>
> That is literally all I have been doing. That is what half of my posts on
> this list-serv that you have turned into a cesspool through posts like this
> have been about.
>
> You posted the same clipped text, so the only purpose of this new topic is
> for you to (yet again) falsely insinuate that my comments about racism are
> a guise for normalizing anti-Semitism. Jeff, you are once again *proving my
> point*. The original, taken from my criticism of self-declared Zionist
> Sheldon Ranz, is here:
>
> " *Specifically, this: http://socialistcurrents.org/?p=2914
>
> ^^^Outside of the obvious racism that underpins comments like:
>
>  "Demand #3 [The right of Palestinians to return to their lands] appears to
> be the “tricky one”, since, on first glance, it plays into fears that it
> mandates Israel allowing a flood of Palestinian refugees that would turn
> Israel’s Jewish majority into a minority. *Not only is this highly
> unlikely, since Jews have not flooded Israel under the Jewish Law of
> Return, but the demand’s wording only deals with the principle of the Right
> of Return and does not concern itself with its actual implementation.*"
>
> There is also the obvious thread that runs through Sheldon's entire
> worldview about Zionism in that he attempts to make it compatible with
> liberalism and democracy. It is a racist whitewash and would explain why
> Sheldon Ranz thinks Tony Greenstein is anti-Semitic for using the prefix
> "Zio" which means "Zionist". That is not being "part" of the BDS Movement,
> that is co-opting it with bigotry against the very people he claims to be
> defending. Gross.
>
> That is putting aside all of the other bizarre and straightforwardly racist
> comments he has made in prior discussions.
>
> *Ironically, Sheldon proves the point I made earlier in this thread:
> that anti-Semitism is treated exceptionally on the left while other forms
> of racism are tolerated, and much if not all of the fuss is itself rooted
> in anti-Arab bigotry that Sheldon Ranz embodies with his unwelcome
> "support". *
>
>
> Jeff is trolling in defense of Sheldon Ranz and his whitewashing of
> Zionism. The point shouldn't even need to be labored this much, so Jeff is
> apparently doing the kind of thing that nitpicky prosecutors do: purposely
> removing quotes from context to cast suspicion on defendants. Sheldon (and
> now Jeff) are literal proof that the exaggerated claims of "left
> anti-Semitism" are designed to validate other forms of racism. Jeff is
> literally doing that in this very thread that he began by taking my
> comments about Sheldon Ranz blatantly racist statements about Zionism out
> of context. Then he asks why I haven't condemned those racist statements
> when they're literally the only things I've posted about. ???
>
> This is trolling.
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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Re: [Marxism] Sheldon Ranz ' Commentary about Israel / Anti-Semitism is Racist

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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" First and foremost, here is what actually happened at the Chicago Dyke
March for comrades who actually care about the substance of accusations of
"anti-Semitism" and how they are used to attack the Left:"

No, your report on the March is definitely what not happened.  First, your
credibility is suspect, since you defend the use of the neo-Nazi epithet
"Zio".  Secondly, the accounts given in the Windy City Times by
award-winning reporter Gretchen Rachel Hammond are more credible, because
they expose the inconsistencies in the accounts given by the CDM's
leadership.  First, one leader claimed it was the Star of David on the
posters; then they changed their tune to alleged verbal disruptions by
Laurel Grauer's contingent, etc.

"... his quickness to condemn students at an Oregon college as part of an
anti-white mob, playing  into a far-right-wing, white supremacist campaign,
without bothering to  check if any of it was actually true"  Actually, my
comment did not condemn any students.  I simply asked some questions about
what other options did the professors in question have.

"The individuals who genuinely have an anti-Semitism problem (Gilad
Atzmon, Israel Shamir, etc) were never involved in organizing boycotts..."
The fact that they were not the most active members is meaningless. They
had proclaimed their solidarity with BDS and considered themselves part of
it.  Since 2012, they were no longer and have been quite pissed about that.

"This sentiment, which is common on the social democratic left, is what
explains not only the controversies above but also the current attacks on
Corbyn over the mural. Without a pre-existing environment latent with
anti-Arab racism, it would be hard to garner such suspicion. Sheldon Ranz'
track record is more or less the embodiment of that."

The only very 'slight' problem with all this is that I support Corbyn and
have defended him against the Israel Embassy-directed attacks.

Sheldon Ranz

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 9:50 AM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> "'[The term "Zio"] was used that way by the leaders of the Chicago Dyke
> March last year against a trans Jewish reporter, Gretchen Rachel Hammond,
> who reported honestly about the anti-Semitic maneuverings of the March
> organizers."
>
> I missed this tidbit in my previous response to Sheldon Ranz but that's
> fine because I think it deserves its own topic, as it is an increasingly
> common line of reasoning among social democrats who are co-opting
> Palestine-related organizing.
>
> First and foremost, here is what actually happened at the Chicago Dyke
> March for comrades who actually care about the substance of accusations of
> "anti-Semitism" and how they are used to attack the Left:
>
> http://mondoweiss.net/2017/07/semitism-disproved-accounts/
>
> In short, a longtime pro-Israel lobbyist who organizes LGBT-themed Israeli
> propaganda junkets shouted down anyone who supported Palestine at a gay
> pride march while waving around a flag with a Jewish star that loosely
> resembled the Israeli flag. When the March organizers asked her why she was
> behaving that way, she admitted to being "a Zionist" [like Sheldon Ranz]
> and was then ejected from the March because the March organizers opposed
> Zionism. She then took to the airwaves to claim that her expulsion was
> because of her Jewishness or because the flag has a Jewish symbol, both of
> which were lies.
>
> Much like the previous episode at Stanford University during the Nakba Tour
>  refugee-stanford-students-censored-me/>,
> the effect of circulating these completely bogus explanations for leftist
> controversies has the effect of demonizing and erasing the most
> marginalized segments of the Palestinian and Arab communities. In that
> event, two Palestinian refugees, one of whom survived the Nakba, were
> prevented from speaking because they did not believe that the regime that
> expelled them has some sort of moral right to "exist" -- something Marxists
> should take for granted about all capitalist regimes -- and did not
> appreciate being told not to say so, even though they had no plans to do
> so.
>
> After arguing about it for two hours, the refugees walked out. The
> organizers saved face by trying to link the event to the all

Re: [Marxism] "Tolerating racism"

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"He shortened it from the word "Zionist" which he also misuses. He doesn't
own any of these words."  Actually, he kind of does because Duke was its
chief - and unchallenged - popularizer.  Why did Greenstein take a word
that was already notorious on the Left and use that same word, instead of
coining a brand new word?  I would just love to see you go into an
African-American neighborhood and used the word "sambo" but announced that
you were going to use it in a new way because, after all ,why should we let
white racists own that word?  I suspect something would happen to you there
 that would prevent you from posting for quite a long time.

"How is this not tokenism again?"  Oh, gee, I don't know, because it's
not?  She was just one example of a Palestinian I recently met.  She's
certainly not the only Palestinian who would agree with my "nutty" views
about Israel's Declaration of Independence, a view that was shared by that
other nutty racist, Albert Einstein.

Sheldon Ranz

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 2018-03-29 19:28, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>>
>> "If you know of forms of racism that are "tolerated" by the left, then why
>> the hell aren't you fighting THAT racism? Can't you speak up when you see
>> such injustice, AS THE REST OF US TRY TO? "
>>
>> That is literally all I have been doing.
>>
>
> Gee, I must have missed it. So for those of us who are such poor readers,
> I wish Amith would point to forms of racism that are "tolerated" by the
> left and then we'd have something actual -- and indeed serious! -- to talk
> about. Whether or not it's "literally" all Amith has been doing.
>
> And if Amith is going to talk about others' views, then he should be
> required to supply direct quotations, as I did twice in regards to Amith's
> dubious charge that the left tolerates racism. Instead he does exactly what
> he falsely accuses me of (which I'm sure he well understands, being a
> lawyer himself):
>
> so Jeff is
>> apparently doing the kind of thing that nitpicky prosecutors do: purposely
>> removing quotes from context
>>
>
> When did I ever do that? Amith accused the left of tolerating racism, and
> I can't find anything in his post which supplies a "context" that changes
> the meaning of such a remark, but you can read his entire post for
> yourself. Here's the "context":
> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/pipermail/marxism/2018-March/281321.html
>
> Again, I'm not saying that Amith is wrong, just that IF he knows of the
> left tolerating racism, then he should bring it to our attention. And
> moreover, that the left tolerating one form of racism clearly isn't an
> argument to justify anything at all.
>
> I'm disturbed at the way Amith puts words into other people's mouths. When
> I read what he writes about me, I learn that I have been busy searching for
> antisemites among the left. Huh? No one who knows me personally, or who has
> read what I write on this list (as you all have access to), would have ever
> concluded anything like that! I don't believe I have ever accused a leftist
> of being antisemitic (including when I suspect it's true, since I'm very
> careful about making my suspicions public). My concern has always been with
> the left amplifying or adapting to positions of the RIGHT, and of course
> that does include antisemitism. And I'm concerned with the left being
> falsely branded as or seen as antisemitic, which is why Corbyn's (possible)
> sloppiness became an issue that properly concerns us.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
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[Marxism] [UCE] Re: Zionism, racism etc

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"As for "Zio". . .  It is a *political* designation - and it is a political
designation of an *oppressor* state and an *oppressor* ideology, so not in
any way comparable to racist terms used to describe Afro-Americans (an
*oppressed* people)."

This is reminiscent of that character in "Alice in Wonderland" who defines
words anyway he/she wants, regardless of how the word is used by most
people or, for that matter, as defined in the dictionary.

"Zio" was popularized, if not outright coined, by David Duke of the KKK
over twenty years ago.  The Southern Poverty Law Center has a lot of
background on him and his "contributions." as does Dennis King, author of a
book on neo-Nazi Lyndon LaRouche.  Why would anyone progressive want to
associate with that term, given its odious history?  It makes no sense,
unless the person doing so is either deranged, anti-Semitic or part of a
false flag operation (or all three).  The BDS movement already expelled
four jerks who doubtlessly are quite comfortable with the term "Zio".

Anyone who ever calls me "Zio" to my face will receive the same physical
response a white man would if he calls an African-American the N word.
This is not open for debate.

Sheldon Ranz

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
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>
> Amith wrote:
> "anti-Semitism is treated exceptionally on the left while other forms
> of racism are tolerated, and much if not all of the fuss is itself rooted
> in anti-Arab bigotry."
>
> and:
>
> " They are exaggerating anti-Semitism and going to great lengths to
> find it while downplaying anti-Arab sentiment. . . Should be
> straightforward."
>
> Spot on Amith.
>
> Since the Israeli state has lost the sympathy of people all over the world
> there has been a frantic effort to associate anti-Zionism and
> anti-semitism.
>
> The behaviour of the Israeli state is the *perfectly logical consequence*
> of Zionism.  You can't dispossess the Palestinians and then establish a
> liberal, inclusive democracy for all.  The state is going to be, and can
> only be, what it is.  There is no democratic Zionism and there can't be.
>
> I doubt Tony Greenstein is overly upset by some of the things he has been
> called by a few people here, as he has been on the receiving end of much
> worlse over the years because he is a staunch anti-racist, anti-imperialist
> and anti-Zionist.  The notion that he is at all anti-gay, misogynist and
> anti-semitic is simply risible.
>
> As for "Zio". . .  It is a *political* designation - and it is a political
> designation of an *oppressor* state and an *oppressor* ideology, so not in
> any way comparable to racist terms used to describe Afro-Americans (an
> *oppressed* people).
>
> I am behind in reading Digests, so have only just caught up with this
> discussion.  It seems to me that Amith has simply defended what has been
> the standard *basic* anti-imperialist position in relation to Israel and
> Zionism and anti-Arab bigotry.  It should be ABC on a Marxist list.
>
> Phil
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Re: [Marxism] Zionism, racism etc

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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As for the other "virtues" of Tony Greenstein, the following statements of
his have been documented by the National Constitutional Committee of the
Labour Party in "In the Matter of Mr. Tony Greenstein(L1435959) Brighton
Kemptown CLP", a PDF document available for download (last I checked):

"Gay Zionists make me want to puke" (May 26, 2016)

"Deborah Lowe it seems the racist whore can't even get her facts correct -
suspended not expelled? Difficult for Zio scum to understand?" (Facebook,
Feb 3, 2017)

"Fuck off progress twat" (Twitter, March 2, 2017)

"Louise Ellman MP is a "wretch of a woman."

Paragraph 25 of the documents has this to say about Greenstein's defense of
his use of "Zio":  "Mr. Greenstein stands in the same position as someone
who is aware that society considers terms such as "Paki" and "Nigger" to be
racially offensive, but on the basis of a belief that the words 'in fact'
mean something else, nevertheless deliberately uses the words "Paki" and
"Nigger" as terms of abuse whilst denying their racial connotations.  Their
personal belief that these terms of racial abuse 'in fact' mean something
else does not alter the fact that they are guilty of racially abusing
others.  Even an honest belief in the 'alternative' meaning of those words
provides no defence: their awareness of the meaning of the term accepted by
wider society makes their conduct blameworthy.  Mr. Greenstein is guilty of
anti-Semitic abuse on the same basis."

Sheldon Ranz



On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 12:20 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:

> "As for "Zio". . .  It is a *political* designation - and it is a political
> designation of an *oppressor* state and an *oppressor* ideology, so not in
> any way comparable to racist terms used to describe Afro-Americans (an
> *oppressed* people)."
>
> This is reminiscent of that character in "Alice in Wonderland" who defines
> words anyway he/she wants, regardless of how the word is used by most
> people or, for that matter, as defined in the dictionary.
>
> "Zio" was popularized, if not outright coined, by David Duke of the KKK
> over twenty years ago.  The Southern Poverty Law Center has a lot of
> background on him and his "contributions." as does Dennis King, author of a
> book on neo-Nazi Lyndon LaRouche.  Why would anyone progressive want to
> associate with that term, given its odious history?  It makes no sense,
> unless the person doing so is either deranged, anti-Semitic or part of a
> false flag operation (or all three).  The BDS movement already expelled
> four jerks who doubtlessly are quite comfortable with the term "Zio".
>
> Anyone who ever calls me "Zio" to my face will receive the same physical
> response a white man would if he calls an African-American the N word.
> This is not open for debate.
>
> Sheldon Ranz
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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>> *
>>
>> Amith wrote:
>> "anti-Semitism is treated exceptionally on the left while other forms
>> of racism are tolerated, and much if not all of the fuss is itself rooted
>> in anti-Arab bigotry."
>>
>> and:
>>
>> " They are exaggerating anti-Semitism and going to great lengths to
>> find it while downplaying anti-Arab sentiment. . . Should be
>> straightforward."
>>
>> Spot on Amith.
>>
>> Since the Israeli state has lost the sympathy of people all over the world
>> there has been a frantic effort to associate anti-Zionism and
>> anti-semitism.
>>
>> The behaviour of the Israeli state is the *perfectly logical consequence*
>> of Zionism.  You can't dispossess the Palestinians and then establish a
>> liberal, inclusive democracy for all.  The state is going to be, and can
>> only be, what it is.  There is no democratic Zionism and there can't be.
>>
>> I doubt Tony Greenstein is overly upset by some of the things he has been
>> called by a few people here, as he has been on the receiving end of much
>> worlse over the years because he is a staunch anti-racist,
>> anti-imperialist
>> and anti-Zionist.  The notion that he is at all anti-gay, misogynist and
>> anti-semitic is simply risible.
>>
>> As for "Zio". . .  It is a *political* designation - and it is a political
>> designation of an *oppressor* state and an *oppressor* ideology, so not in
>> any way comparable to racist terms used to describe Afro-Americans (an
>> *o

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The Lost City of Z | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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As a big fan of Hunnam and "Sons of Anarchy", let me point out that SOA was
on FX, not on AMC.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> “Lost City of Z” is a biopic about Percival Fawcett, a British military
> cartographer who became obsessed with the notion that a highly advanced
> civilization existed in the Amazon on the scale of the great empires to the
> North–the Incas, the Aztecs and the Mayans. The film starts in 1906 when he
> is sent by his commanders to the Royal Geographical Society to get his
> marching orders for a map-making project. In a border dispute between
> Brazil and Bolivia over access to rubber trees, a third party would be
> tasked to define the exact borders between the two nations and Fawcett
> would lead that expedition.
>
> Probably the best thing about the film is a stunning performance by
> Charlie Hunnam, a 37-year old British actor best known for his portrayal of
> a gangster biker in AMC’s “Sons of Anarchy”. When Brad Pitt decided not to
> play Fawcett, it opened the door to a much more qualified actor in every
> sense. Growing up in England, Hunnam embodies the stiff upper-lip demeanor
> of Captain Fawcett, an artillery officer and to the manor born. When he is
> being interviewed by the Royal Geographical Society’s top men, he is told
> that doing this job would redeem his family’s honor. His father had been a
> member of the society but died in shame as a squanderer of his family’s
> fortune.
>
> Writer-director James Gray claims that class distinctions between Fawcett
> and the RGS’s establishment was paramount in his mind when he began
> developing the project. If so, he didn’t really succeed since Fawcett comes
> across just as Colonel Blimpish as all the rest of the men who were an
> integral part of the imperial mission of the late 19th and early 20th
> century.
>
> full: https://louisproyect.org/2017/04/19/the-lost-city-of-z/
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Re: [Marxism] Oliver Stone: Jewish Control of the Media Is Preventing Free Holocaust Debate

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Mel Gibson must be screaming, "NOT FAIR! Why can he say these things and go
unpunished in Hollywood but not me?"

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
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>
> Thanks for sending this David. I read the article in full, but really the
> headline says it all. Now, if he had instead said "Zionist" or "Israeli
> lobby" then I would have let it pass (though not exactly agreeing with the
> statement). But just the fact that he was totally content to use the
> "Jewish" label clearly reveals that he is not of the left.
>
> An important lesson for the modern era to be learned, one that repeatedly
> challenges my previous assumptions, is that high profile figures
> (especially in arts and entertainment)  with contrarian or outspoken
> anti-establishment positions, cannot be assumed to be speaking for the
> left. Many years ago it seemed simple: anyone speaking out against war or
> imperialism, for freedom and civil rights, against international treaties
> and trade deals, against government secrecy, or denouncing official
> corruption, were clearly part of the left and probably had good positions
> on most other issues. Of course I knew of exceptions, but they didn't
> amount to anything. "Anti-government" meant anti ruling class, which could
> only mean pro working class.
>
> So it was easy to be enthusiastic when hearing these sorts of words from
> an Oliver Stone, Michael Moore, Julian Assange, or Glenn Greenwald. What I
> (and many other leftists) missed is that these people's provocations may
> have well served their careers and public images, but did not derive from
> their involvement in our struggles or from any left party or organization.
> The left can well take credit for creating an atmosphere where challenging
> government secrecy, militarism, and corruption would have broad popular
> appeal. But that favor doesn't automatically get returned.
>
> And of course in recent years, these ambiguities have greatly intensified
> in terms of political movements on the extreme right which have hijacked
> what we had deemed to be leftist rhetoric. That's an additional issue which
> has received more than a small bit of attention on this list. But here I'm
> not considering the organized right-wing, but just those well known figures
> who consider themselves above political action on the ground. It is easy
> for them to take a left wing position here, a right wing position there,
> and mix them all up (especially through the medium of conspiracy theories!)
> in a collage that advances their careers and glory. But which can only be
> confusing to the left, should we be so careless as to champion such
> individuals over the millions of activists who will never achieve any such
> degree of recognition for their work which is both unpaid and liable to get
> them thrown in jail or worse.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2017-05-07 20:13, DW via Marxism wrote:
>
>>
>> Oliver Stone: Jewish Control of the Media Is Preventing Free Holocaust
>> Debate
>>
>> Outspoken Hollywood director says new film aims to put Adolf Hitler, who
>> he
>> has called an 'easy scapegoat' in the past, in his due historical context.
>>
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Re: [Marxism] [SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] Last Secret’ of 1967 War: Israel’s Doomsday Plan for Nuclear Display

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Why was this e-mail headlined "a suspicious message"?

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 6/4/17 4:59 PM, Dennis Brasky wrote:
>
>> 1967 was NOT a war over the survival or existence of Israel
>>
>
> Yes, I know.
>
> https://louisproyect.org/2007/05/19/six-days/
>
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Re: [Marxism] How a Campus Fight Drove 2 Left-Leaning Professors to Fox News

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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So, what should those Evergreen State professors have done instead?
Encourage more audiences to be hostile so they can get experience points?

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Michael Yates via Marxism <
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>
> These two profs at Evergreen State marked themselves as real jackasses by
> appearing on that consummate pig Tucker Carlson's Fox program. And then
> they say that they don't view Fox the way they used to. A couple more
> liberals dying to move to the right. Well, now they are there, right where
> they belong. These profs need some more experience dealing with hostile
> audiences. Instead, they took their case to Tucker Carlson. Some real
> courage there.
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Re: [Marxism] How a Campus Fight Drove 2 Left-Leaning Professors to Fox News

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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" I don't see why the professors were so upset in the first place."  In
other words, you don't have any answers to what course of action they
should have taken.

When student(s) yell at them, "I don't care what you say.", I'd say that's
a legitimate reason to get upset.  Perhaps they professors should have
called Bernie Sanders to mediate the dispute?

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>
> Sheldon Ranz, would you go on Tucker Carlson's show under any
> circumstance? If you ever did, I'd call you a jackass too. Like Olaf says
> in the ee cumming poem, there is some shit i will not eat. Of course, Olaf
> was speaking to some serious business, vicious persecution by those who
> would love Carlson today, not a tenured professor having to face hostile
> students. Frankly, from what I have read, I don't see why the professors
> were so upset in the first place. And now it seems that the fascists out
> there are threatening to beat and kill all those they hate, which includes,
> no doubt, all the black, gay, transgender, and radical students and faculty
> on campus. Given what has been happening, in Portland and around the
> country, there is good reason to take such threats seriously.
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Re: [Marxism] How a Campus Fight Drove 2 Left-Leaning Professors to Fox News

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Oh, but I did have plenty to offer.  I posed the question that provoked
Amith into giving the other side of the story.

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>
> Amith gives a good account, I think, of the context for the professor's
> appearance on the odious Tucker Carlson's show. Sheldon Ranz has nothing
> whatever to offer us. I taught for more than forty years and faced many
> hostile students. And many, more dangerous people in bars, bowling alleys,
> and on the streets of Johnstown, PA. That's part of being a radical.
> Nothing, and I mean nothing, can justify going on that wretched pig's show,
> and especially to cry crocodile tears over how you have been treated by
> students who were fighting for social justice.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Life on Mars: Elon Musk reveals details of his colonisation vision | Science | The Guardian

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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If I were Jeremy Corbyn, I'd be grateful the Guardian doesn't like me..

On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 9:17 AM, DW via Marxism  wrote:

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>
> This is what passes for a science article in  The Guardian doesn't surprise
> me whatsoever. When you see that "“It would be quite fun to be on Mars
> because you would have gravity that is about 37% of that of Earth, so you
> would be able to lift heavy things and bound around,” you are dealing with
> a lunatic "visionary". Mad indeed. How much fun would it be when your bones
> start to break because they don't have the 100% needed gravity to insure
> their health? Earth, with it's nickle-iron core, provides a huge absolutely
> necessary shield against the massive solar and cosmic radiation that would
> otherwise cook all life on Earth. Mars has no such nickel-iron core, and
> thus no ionosphere to protect life on that planet.
>
> If one is going to read a reasonable and informative vision of Mars
> colonization, skip the idiot and former Trump advisor, Elon Musk, and read
> the Kim Stanley Robinson series "Red Mars" "Green Mars" "Blue Mars". The
> Guardian is poising as the "World News" of science. Elon Musk is their
> mascot. Skip it.
>
> David
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How German Condoms Funded the Russian Revolution - The New York Times

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"So much of this crap showing up in the NY Times over the past month or so,
this time from the author of a book that according to a review in the NYT
established Lenin getting funded by the Germans. If her book is as murky as
this op-ed piece, I'd say the case has not been proved to a moral
certainty."

So this was not so much a Communist revolution as a Contraceptive one?

Remember, parents, when putting your baby Bolsheviks to bed, remind them to
put a contraceptive on their lead pencils...

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> So much of this crap showing up in the NY Times over the past month or so,
> this time from the author of a book that according to a review in the NYT
> established Lenin getting funded by the Germans. If her book is as murky as
> this op-ed piece, I'd say the case has not been proved to a moral certainty.
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/opinion/german-condoms-ru
> ssian-revolution.html
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[Marxism] [UCE] Re: ‘Make It So’: ‘Star Trek’ and Its Debt to Revolutionary Socialism - The New York Times

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Beginning in 1966, the plot of “Star Trek” closely followed Posadas’s
propositions. After a nuclear third world war (which Posadas also believed
would lead to socialist revolution), Vulcan aliens visit Earth, welcoming
them into a galactic federation and delivering replicator technology that
would abolish scarcity."

This is not from the 1966 original series, but from the eighth Star Trek
motion picture, "Star Trek: First Contact"(1996).  It is not at all clear
that the Vulcans were responsible for replicator rechnology.

During my senior year at the Bronx HS of Science (1976), I published the
school's first SF zine, Phaser Fire!, in which I wrote an essay exploring
the socialist ideology of Star Trek.  It was in response to one of many
trashings of Star Trek in the Village Voice, this one penned by James
Woolcott, whom Alexander Cockburn rightfully lambasted years later.

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
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>
> Interest in alien life was not just the domain of scientists and fiction
> writers. U.F.O. flaps worldwide captured pop cultural attention, and many
> believed that flying saucers were here to warn us, or even save us, from
> the danger of nuclear weapons. In the midst of the worldwide worker and
> student uprisings in 1968, the Argentine Trotsykist leader known as J.
> Posadas wrote an essay proposing solidarity between the working class and
> the alien visitors. He argued that their technological advancement
> indicated they would be socialists and could deliver us the technology to
> free Earth from the grip of Yankee imperialism and the bureaucratic
> workers’ states.
>
> Such views were less fringe and more influential than you might think.
> Beginning in 1966, the plot of “Star Trek” closely followed Posadas’s
> propositions. After a nuclear third world war (which Posadas also believed
> would lead to socialist revolution), Vulcan aliens visit Earth, welcoming
> them into a galactic federation and delivering replicator technology that
> would abolish scarcity. Humans soon unify as a species, formally abolishing
> money and all hierarchies of race, gender and class.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/24/opinion/make-it-so-star-
> trek-and-its-debt-to-revolutionary-socialism.html?
> em_pos=small&emc=edit_ty_20170724&nl=opinion-today&nl_
> art=6&nlid=34832082&ref=headline&te=1&_r=0
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Re: [Marxism] LGBT army unit established to take on ISIL | Euronews

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"http://www.euronews.com/2017/07/26/lgbt-army-unit-
established-to-take-on-isil?utm_source=newsletter&utm_
medium=en&utm_content=lgbt-army-unit-established-to-take-on-isil&_ope=
eyJndWlkIjoiYjM2YjBlMzEzMGE4MzcxNmE4OGRmYjExNTFkNWYxOWMifQ==


Sent from my iPhone"


It was not clear from your link whether this unit is affiliated with Assad
or the Free Syrian Army.

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>
> http://www.euronews.com/2017/07/26/lgbt-army-unit-
> established-to-take-on-isil?utm_source=newsletter&utm_
> medium=en&utm_content=lgbt-army-unit-established-to-take-on-isil&_ope=
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>
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> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How (Not) to Challenge Racist Violence | By Aviva Chomsky | Common Dreams

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Ms. Chomsky's mentioning of "boycotting certain products" as an example of
self-righteous posing appears to be a slap at the BDS movement, which
neither Chomsky appears to support.

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Don't quite agree with this article by Chomsky's daughter but it is worth
reading.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/08/21/how-not-challe
nge-racist-violence

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Don't quite agree with this article by Chomsky's daughter but it is worth
> reading.
>
> https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/08/21/how-not-challe
> nge-racist-violence
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How (Not) to Challenge Racist Violence | By Aviva Chomsky | Common Dreams

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Mike:

You are mixing up what I posted with what Louis posted.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Mike Sola via Marxism <
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>
> Sheldon,
>
> Since you refer to her "example of self-righteous posing" and say that you
> "don't quite agree with this article," what in your opinion makes it worth
> reading?
>
> I didn't think it was.
> --
> Mike
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Should We Protest Neo-Nazis? Lessons From German History

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Nowhere in the reprinted Counterpunch article by Alexander Cockburn on the
SPLC is it mentioned that it engaged in spying.  That the Anti-Defamation
League did, there can be no doubt.

How much can the German Communist Party of the Weimar Republic be blamed
for Hitler's rise to power, really?.  It was a Social Democrat, Gustav
Noske, who organized the Freikorps into a death squad that assassinated
Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknicht.  Did the Weimar Social Democrats ever
reach out to the KPD to form an anti-Nazi coalition?  Should the KPD have
trusted the Social Democrats given its then-recent past for which it did
not apologize?

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 2:28 AM, John Obrien via Marxism <
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>
> I must take issue with this "How Should We Protest Neo-Nazis" article for
> two reasons
>
> (I prefer to defeat them not just protest them)
>
>
> First the moderator describes the Southern Poverty Law Center as "a civil
> rights advocacy organization".
>
> For those with memories, this group was revealed as spying on left groups
> and providing names etc. to
>
> the Anti-Defamation League (their main sponsor) who then turned that
> information over to both the
>
> governments of Israel and the United States.  The head of the SPLC Morris
> Dees is no leftist and made
>
> millions of dollars as the SPLC paid staff!   Their board has militarists
> and corporatists and wealthy lawyers.
>
> The SPLC is an anti-left Zionist organization that serves the state of
> Israel and spies on the left.
>
>
> Second, how the Nazis actually came to power and to insinuate it was
> because of people in Germany were
>
> physically fighting the Nazis that had aided them - is nonsense and
> re-writing history.  The fascists first
>
> came to power in Hungary and then Italy and Hitler came later. Hitler came
> to power because of the
>
> Krupps, U. S. Senator Prescott Bush and other capitalists funding them,
> who feared Germany would
>
> have a socialist revolution.
>
>
> The liberals and conscious agents of the bourgeoisie such as the SPLC,
> avoid the class issues and
>
> why and how the fascists came to power in many nations in Europe in the
> 20th Century following
>
> the horrendous effects of WWI.  The failure of the German Communist Party
> with its own large
>
> organized militias to not even physically fight the Nazis and melt away
> when Hitler enacts his
>
> dictatorial rule, is also a reason for the Nazis rule, as well as their
> categorizing the social democrats
>
> (SPD) as "social fascists" and failing to unite to fight the Nazis.  Leon
> Trotsky work: The Struggle
>
> Against Fascism in Germany (second edition, page  192) has him correctly
> write: By ignoring the
>
> specific nature of fascism, the will to fight against it becomes
> inevitably paralyzed.
>
>
> Fascists do not abide by "majority rule" or have respect for the views of
> others. They seek power and
>
> to crush all they oppose - and fear.
>
>
> To ignore fascists rallies and protests is a mistake.  They need to be
> challenged and isolated - and
>
> the recent mobilization in Boston was a great example of how to
> successfully do that, in mobilizing
>
> broad sections of the working class and disempowering and isolating the
> fascists.
>
>
> The United States has had many fascists groups in its history - the Klan,
> Silver Shirts, Gerald Smith,
>
> Father Coughlin etc.  As a Gay activist I had  to deal with many fascist
> groups - and this includes many
>
> sections of the right wing evangelists.
>
>
> The fascists want to terrorize, cause fear and make opponents immobilized
> and isolated, to oppose them.
>
> They operate like the board game 'GO' created in Japan, that is all about
> pushing forward to grab
>
> space and isolate one's opponent to surrender and conquer.  Fascists are
> not intent on being a
>
> polite debating society.  Their intent is to destroy all opposition -
> including murdering us.
>
>
> Relying on the Southern Poverty Law Center is a serious mistake.  The left
> needs to have their
>
> own organizations to oppose fascists and not trust those who favor
> capitalist rule.  Putting ones
>
> trust and hopes in the capitalist state or groups like the SPLC, that view
> the left as the enemy,
>
> is an error - and reflects more on how the fascists came to power in
> E

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Can a Democratic Socialist Actually Win a City Council Spot?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Ruth Messenger won a City Council election as a member of DSA, and
eventually became Manhattan Borough President.  David Dinkins was a DSA
member when he won the NYC Mayoralty, although he kept that information on
the down low.

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> This is an African-American Green Party candidate.
>
> http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/can-a-democrati
> c-socialist-actually-win-a-city-council-spot.html
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Re: [Marxism] The Nation magazine's shameful history of Nakba denial and support to ethnic cleansing

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Ms. Khalek ignores the significant support given to the Zionist movement,
especially Labor Zionism, by Stalin.  Would Israel ever have won its War of
Independence without Stalin's arms from the Czech munitions factories?  And
then there's Ho Chi Minh, who offered Ben Gurion asylum if he had to flee.
The Nation's position under Kirchwey was undoubtedly influenced by its
closeness to the CP, which echoed Stalin's line.

Ignoring the USSR's critical role is dishonest.

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 5:27 PM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
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>
> http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/nation-magazines-shameful-history-aiding-ethnic-cleansing-palestine?utm_source=EI+readers&utm_campaign=67de88c003-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e802a7602d-67de88c003-290662377
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The Swedish model (part 1) | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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How does Olaf Plame fit into this?

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 5/25/15 11:48 AM, Jim Farmelant via Marxism wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, concerning the Myrdals, they were influential not only as
>> economists but also as sociologists and as policy wonks. They were among
>> the lead architects of the Swedish welfare state. They were also staunch
>> advocates of eugenics. Eugenics policies were in fact implemented in
>> Sweden between the 1920s and the 1970s and often involved forced
>> sterilizations of women.
>>
>
> I'll be covering this in some detail. It is tied to the Malthusian beliefs
> of Knut Wicksell who was a fervent believer in birth control as a cure for
> poverty.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: 1972 essay by Sanders delved into male, female sex fantasies

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I'll bet Gail Dines will have plenty to say about Sanders - none of it
good.

Did anyone here attend her talk about Marxism at the 2015 Left Forum? I
couldn't make it.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Apparently the bourgeois press is uncomfortable with Sanders even though
> he is no threat to the status quo. Dredging up some fiction he wrote 43
> years ago strikes me as red herring.
>
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2015/05/28/sanders-essay-sexual-fantasies/28120647/
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Re: [Marxism] The 1, 500 year old schism fuelling the clash between Russia and the West

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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So this schism is all about Christians not knowing what matzoh is?  Oy!
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Re: [Marxism] The Greek working class overwhelmingly rejects austerity

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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>The class struggle is getting really acute here, and this is not a third
> world country...

...and there is no proof that Tsipras is some sort of sell-out, your claims
notwithstanding.  All along, Tzipras' offer of concessions was a bluff.  He
knew that the Troika would reject them, so he 'offered' them knowing that
the Troika's arrogant rejection of them would galvanize the Greek
electorate into giving him a majority during the ensuing referendum.
Getting a majority was crucial since Syriza itself won less than a majority
during its initial election victory.

Unlike Obama, Tzipras is the true master of three-dimensional chess! He
doesn't do stalemates.
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Re: [Marxism] Facing bad choices, in or out of the euro, Greece needs our solidarity

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Excuse me, but NO ONE at the Troika forced Syriza to organize a
referendum.  Tsipras and Co. chose that, and now have chosen to ignore the
results of the referendum in favor of the Troika's demands.

How is that not treachery?
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Re: [Marxism] Greece accepts bailout terms

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I was wrong to give Tsipras the benefit of the doubt.  He's no chess master
- just another Obama-nation. I hope the Greek people rise up and throw that
faker out of office.

'Tsipras' is Greek for 'tsores'.
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Re: [Marxism] Facing bad choices, in or out of the euro, Greece needs our solidarity

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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*

Using your logic, you could similar excuses for Obama.

Apparently, there are no lies in politics, according to you, because we
were always supposed to know that elected leaders have "a game". So, the
Greek people have no justification for feeling betrayed.  So, if a loved
one is murdered, should I shrug it off and say, "Oh well, we all have to
die sometime."

And what's this about Allende?  What lies did he tell?  What referendum did
he betray?

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 4:35 AM, ioannis aposperites via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *************
>
> On 10/07/2015 05:57 πμ, Sheldon Ranz via Marxism wrote:
>
>  Excuse me, but NO ONE at the Troika forced Syriza to organize a
>> referendum.  Tsipras and Co. chose that, and now have chosen to ignore the
>> results of the referendum in favor of the Troika's demands.
>>
>> How is that not treachery?
>>
>
> Allende's policy wasn't a treachery? Yet he saved the honor of the left by
> his resistance till the end. Isn't it strange that the political forces in
> Chile of 1973 who had foreseen the disaster and were advocating for the
> masses to be mobilized and the "Cordones Industriales" to take action etc
> are now widely forgotten, and often ruthlessly criticized inside the
> revolutionary left, while the "traitor" is a symbol of resistance
> internationally?
>
> The word treachery and the likes are good for agitation but not so good
> for propaganda and even less for politics. Politics is not a question of
> moral nor of ethics; it's about class struggle and correlation of forces.
>
> On the other hand Tsipras was clear from the beginning: His government was
> declared to be a national salvation government. The promises to the
> proletariat were supposed to be the outcome of a fair class collaboration
> and were conditioned by that collaboration as long as the bourgeoisie had
> to be also satisfied. You like it or not, that was Tsipras' game. Of course
> the greek working class and its other political forces were and are playing
> a variety of different games, but that does not regard Tsipras'
> intentions.  Conclusion: speaking of treachery is not even technically
> correct.
>
> JA
>
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Re: [Marxism] Greece again

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Short of fire, sexual blackmail is one way to keel politicians in line.  It
has worked for the LBGT community in the US, and folks should not be afraid
to 'stoop' to that level if it can prevent future betrayals.
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Re: [Marxism] Paul Mason "What was the point of Tsipras referendum?"

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"I think the no vote was an expression of confidence,
that the Greeks knew that their government was doing the best they could
to fulfill their electoral mandate."

No, it was not.  It was a rejection of the Troika's austerity demands
 According to reliable news reports, both Tsipras and the referendum's
wording underscored that.

"If the Institutions do not accept Syriza's offer, then it will be clear
to all that Greece did not leave the Eurozone voluntarily but was kicked
out."

There is more honor in quitting than in being fired.

"Despite the fact that they were forced to accede to
austerity demands in the end, their honorable and courageous battle and
their respect for democracy will encourage the voters in Spain, Ireland
and elsewhere to vote for their own left parties."

They were not forced to accede - there were alternatives within a Grexit
maneuver that would make Greece survivable for the masses.  We've seen here
on this forum links to articles by economists both Greek and American as to
how this would be possible.  And "respect for democracy" by pissing on the
NO vote? WTF??? Can you spell 'Orwell'?

Coming up next...Tzipras invites Golden Dawn into the government.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 7:05 PM, he5513--- via Marxism <
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>
>
> Not sure if Andrew Pollack is misreading Paul Mason, but to me, Paul
> Mason made sense.  Here is my own take on it.  I do understand why the
> Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone.  The Euro has strong symbolic value
> for the unity of the European people.  The possibility to travel without
> having to go through customs and without having to go to the currency
> exchange window is a great unifying experience for the ordinary person.
>
> (1) What was the point of the Referendum?  I think the referendum should
> be taken at face value.  Tsipras needed to know whether the Greek masses
> were willing to accept the conditions of the Institutions.  This would
> make a difference for further negotiations.  I don't think he expected
> to lose, but he assumed that there was a good probability he might lose.
> He needed the referendum exactly because he did not know whether the
> answer would be yes or no.  In case of a yes vote, others would continue
> the negotiations.  I think the no vote was an expression of confidence,
> that the Greeks knew that their government was doing the best they could
> to fulfill their electoral mandate.
>
> (2) Why did Varoufakis resign?  Again I think the official story is
> basically correct.  After the resounding no vote, Tsipras expected that
> the Institutions would see themselves forced to make more concessions.
> And as an ice breaker, Tsipras sacrificed Varoufakis in order to get the
> negotiations going again.  Not because Varoufakis did something wrong,
> but because Varoufakis knew too much; he embarrassed the negotiators on
> the other side by being the better economist.  Varoufakis showed to the
> whole world that the negotiaions were not about economics but about
> power.   His latest Guardian op-ed
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/germany-greek-pain-debt-relief-grexit
> is another proof of a much more penetrating insight into the process
> and history than available from the other negotiators.
>
> (3) Now the important thing is the reaction of the Institutions to the
> Referendum and to Tsipras's good-will gesture of withdrawing Varoufakis.
> Their reaction was: nothing.  Not a single conciliatory gesture, instead
> they insisted on the deadlock before the referendum and said "it is up
> to the Greeks."  This ultimate intransigence showed their disdain for
> democracy and also showed that they did not want Greece in the Euro zone
> any more.  Perhaps Merkel had maneuvered herself into a position where
> she was not able to make concessions any more, or perhaps---Varoufakis is
> not the only one to say this about Schauble---Schauble had not been
> negotiating in good faith, he wanted the negotiations to fail.
>
> (4) What did Tsipras do when he, and everybody else, saw the true
> position of the Institutions?  He saw the expulsion of Greece coming and
> he did not want it blamed on Syriza.  He did not have the mandate to
> leave the Euro, and I think it is also strategically wrong for
> socialists to voluntarily leave the Euro or the EU

Re: [Marxism] Jeff Richards on Syriza

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Surrender and the signing of a temporary truce was the only possible
option"

What about playing the NATO card, where Greece threatens to leave NATO and
get closer to Russia unless it gets a better deal?

Based on everything I've seen on this list, it appears Tsipras does not
even remember the referendum or its result, which presumably made it easier
for him to contradict it.  The resignations seem to be motivated primarily
by dismay over Tsipras' dishonesty with his own comrades.
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Re: [Marxism] LOL

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I'm not exactly sure what you find laughable about Tony Greenstein's piece
- I was not aware of the extent that Reagan's former Treasury Secretary
published more times on CP than a bunch of well-known progressives
combined.  And, I suppose Greenstein could have included Gail Dines and
Robert Jensen among the right-wing feminists who are given lots of CP space
to espouse their anti-sex worker views.

I have appreciated Louis' defense of CP, but if you don't think this deal
with the devil won't hurt the Left down the road, think again.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:43 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
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>
>
> http://azvsas.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2015-01-01T00:00:00Z&updated-max=2016-01-01T00:00:00Z&max-results=50
>
> --
> - Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Counterpunch promoting left-right alliance (aka "Querfront")?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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A fine old German Social Democrat, August Bebel, quipped, "Anti-Semitism is
the socialism of fools" when confronted by efforts by several on the Left
in his day to make common cause with Jew-hating grassroots reactionaries.
The reason given for these attempts was that these bigots were deluded but
had good hearts, and only needed to be persuaded that the true enemy was
Big Capital, not the Rothschilds, The persuasion would come in the form of
joint actions, during which time trust would 'seep' into the Archie Bunkers
and they would eventually realize the error of their ways.

Needless to say, these attempts ended up badly. Cockburn once wrote about
the Left needing to go to rural fairs and engaging the Bunkers there in
direct conversation about bankers, so as to divert them away from
Trilateral/Rothschild conspiracies and toward Wall Street, Coors, etc. But,
to paraphrase Exodus about a certain Pharaoh, "he knew not Bebel."

I speak only of forging deep ties with the far Right, not the only
occasional one-off action like Alan Grayson and Ron Paul cosponsoring a
bill in Congress on civil liberties. An occasional peep from the paleos in
Counterpunch is harmless, as long as it doesn't get into our heads these
people aren't hopeless. But what we have been witness to at CP is not a
peep but a plethora.
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Re: [Marxism] Counterpunch promoting left-right alliance (aka "Querfront")?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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The CP editors have misled myself and others into believing that Paul Craig
Roberts, while once a Reaganite, had become a leftist because he was
getting published on Counterpunch(CP). CP never talked about the stuff he
currently writes that doesn't get published  The CP editors are
perpetrating this coverup precisely because they know it will hurt their
fundraising and play into the hands of Israeli hasbarah (state propaganda),
among others. How sad.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Laura Kipnis’s Battle Against Vulnerability - The New Yorker

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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It's a dialectical combination.

We are all living on a continuum spanning from agency to susceptibility.
Each of us navigates the continuum in our own way.

--Sheldon

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 2:21 PM, William Quimby via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> Stepping into a dangerous area :)
>
> Kipnis suggests that a woman has "agency", implying the ability to
> determine her goals,
> morals, and ideals. Yet the testimonies of the women accusers suggest that
> they were
> susceptible to devices that undermine agency - "charm" and "desire",
> allowing an
> opening for manipulation.
>
> So someone please enlighten me... which is it? Is every individual built
> just a
> little bit differently? Or is it that we are ALL living on a pivot point
> between agency
> and susceptibility?
>
> - Bill
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Hanukkah — bah, humbug | Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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The Chabad are not the only part of the Jewish community that prmotes
Hanukkah.  So does the Bund and the anti-Zionist Satmars. In general, it is
wise not to let one's anger at State Zionism spill over into agreeing with
the alcoholic Iraq War supporter Christopher Hitchens.

The Seleucid regime was not progressive,  It was the occupying force of a
slave-owning empire which was no more interested in promoting reason and
logic than Thomas Jefferson was. They imposed their religious beliefs by
force - that is what sparked the rebellion by the Maccabbees. Those Jews
who claimed to be symnpatheric with the Greek philosophers were just
rationalizing their collaboration with the occupiers.  At least when
Alexander te Great was alive, he did not interfere wth the practice of
Judaism, let alone force the Jews to worship uncircumcised Greek gods. Jews
who fancied Greek philosophy then were not targeted by fundamentalists.

On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 1:27 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> In the same way I used to organize sales for the Socialist Workers Party
> in Houston in the 1970s, directing people to various grocery stores or
> college campuses with bundles of the Militant, the Chabad sends its young
> missionaries to what they regard as fruitful opportunities for converting
> lost souls. But this Hasidic outreach group is not interested in saving
> Christians or Muslims. It is people like me, secular Jews, that they are
> trying to reach, based on their presence in front of my building during
> Jewish holidays throughout the year.
>
> Yesterday as I was on the sidewalk in front of my high-rise, one of these
> young men, clad in a dark suit and wearing a wide-brimmed fedora made by
> Borsalino, approached me to ask if I’d like to have a donut in honor of
> Hanukkah. (My building is ecumenical with a Christmas tree and a Hanukkah
> menorah in the lobby in an obvious bid to make the Jewish residents more
> amenable to chipping in for the staff’s holiday bonus.)
>
> No thanks, I said.
>
> full: http://louisproyect.org/2014/12/21/hanukkah-bah-humbug/
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Re: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named Defense Minister

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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On the one hand, Nixon and Stalin were two anti-Semites who supplied Israel
with arms, so need to worry on that front (unless you're Palestinian).

On the other hand, the only other anti-austerity party that got seats was
the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn.  Talk about being between a rock and a hard place
- or to please any Greeks out there, between Scylla and Charybdis.  Holy
Odysseus, Batman - does Tzipris have tsores!

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Charles Faulkner via Marxism <
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>
> thanks for this. troubling.
>
> sorry if i missed the discussion but is this the only way they could have
> a majority? is he a placeholder until they have a clear majority or is
> there something else at work? isn't he exactly the kind of person you could
> not trust being a defense minister? where does this choice fit in syriza's
> three planks?
>
> troubling.
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: "jay rothermel via Marxism" 
> To: "Charles Faulkner" 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 5:29:14 PM
> Subject: [Marxism] Greek Leader Who Said 'Jews Don't Pay Taxes' Named
> Defense Minister
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Germany’s New Far Right | Jacobin

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Elsasser talks like - and his name looks like - the Strasser brothers of
'Left-Nazi' infamy.

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Elsässer began publishing books and articles arguing for the constitution
> of a “Berlin-Paris-Moscow axis” in opposition to Washington. After a series
> of explicitly nationalist interventions got him booted, successively, from
> pretty much every major left-wing publication of note, Elsässer started
> Compact, thus creating a coherent ideological center for a new type of
> far-right politics: resolutely German nationalist, explicitly adopting
> traditional far-right tropes against “finance capital,” positing the
> formation of a “Eurasian” power axis as a counterpole to the United States,
> and resolutely anti-immigrant in terms of domestic policy while supporting
> “anti-imperialist” countries such as Iran or Syria abroad.
>
> This unique mixture has found an enthusiastic audience in the new far
> right, and elements of the ideology are deeply rooted in the middle of
> German society itself, to which the prominent displays of Compact in train
> station newspaper shops are testament.
>
> full: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/02/germany-far-right-pegida/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Eurozone chiefs strike deal to extend Greek bailout for four months | Business | The Guardian

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I thought Syriza's Plan B was to leave the Eurozone altogether and start
printing their own currency.  Isn't that what Argentina did in 2002 when it
told the IMF to go fuck itself?

I'm getting a bad feeling about Tzipras,

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:29 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism <
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>
> I don't know I'm not there but I don't think from what I see that this is
> premature in the least: if I were a leftist in Greece, Spain, Bosnia,
> Portugal, Ireland et al, I might be circulating as widely as possible that
> absolutely classic photo of filthy-rich-nation German Finance Minister
> Wolfgang Schäuble staring at Yanis Varoufakis as if at a piece of shit -
> and Varoufakis in the face of it smiling gamely, as if with history on his
> side, while articulating to the world all the grinding poverty brought on
> by austerity under the existing European regime [
> http://commondreams.org/news/2015/02/19/all-bets-germany-
> rejects-greek-proposal-modified-loan-extension].
>
> Depending always on the particular ground I was standing on, of course, in
> the coming months and with more elections not far off, I might be talking a
> mile a minute about the signs of increasing ripeness of the times for an
> all-European left coalition, aimed at the venal, arrogant, totally
> undemocratic nature of the present union and its devastating consequences
> for millions, against the rulers of France, Netherlands, Germany, and the
> poorer states of Europe as well and the banks and imperial hegemon US
> behind them.
>
> I would then be planning how to move from the traditional defensive
> posture of the European left and, in the face of all this flagrant
> in-your-face repression, beginning to take the offensive, together, in and
> out of government, on the streets and onward. The Euro is in deepening
> trouble, apparently, the present arrangement is on the skids, the suits
> haven't a clue, and when that happens there's no bail-out in prospect for
> the European community this time. That's epochal, most propitious.
>
> Everyone must realize by now that the desperate workers in a poor nation
> such as Greece cannot expect to change much of anything without the widest
> solidarity. Now's the time? Fifty percent unemployment in Greece, Spain,
> Bosnia and elsewhere among youth? Here's to a Fifth International, here's
> to an organizing focus which takes into account all the mistakes of the
> first four.
>
> Or leave the field to the right and a series of brutal coups in Europe?
>
> 
>
> Louis Proyect wrote
>
>
> On 2/20/15 7:04 PM, A.R. G wrote:
>
>Fine. But why did they make this concession?
>
>
> Because they buckled under pressure obviously. If you think that Marxism
> prevents you from accepting rotten deals, you need to read up on
> Brest-Litovsk. Here's Trotsky on the treaty that was imposed on a
> war-ravaged and exhausted USSR:
>
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1925/lenin/04.htm
>
> That we could no longer fight was perfectly clear to me. When I passed
> through the trenches on my way to Brest-Litovsk the first time, our
> comrades, in spite of all advances and encouragement, were quite unable to
> organize any significant demonstration of protest against the enormous
> demands of Germany; the trenches were almost empty – no one ventured to
> speak even conditionally of a continuation of the war. Peace, peace at any
> price! Later, on my return from Brest-Litovsk, I tried to persuade the
> president of the military section of the All Russian Central Executive
> Committee to support our delegation by a “patriotic” speech. “Impossible!”
> he exclaimed, “quite impossible; we cannot return to the trenches; we would
> not be understood; we would lose all influence.” As to the impossibility of
> a revolutionary war, there was not the slightest difference of opinion
> between Vladimir Ilyich and myself.
>
>
> In Greece today, the enemy is not armed with bayonets but Euros.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Tariq Ali: The speech Tsipras shoud have made

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Might Plan B be the gradual re-introduction of the drachma as an
alternative to the Euro?

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 2/23/15 10:01 AM, TARIQ ALI wrote:
>
>> Everything today, alas, is in a capitalist context. Choice is between
>> neo-liberalism and a form of left social-democracy (Bolivarians, Syriza,
>> Podemos). There is no systemic challenge. Read Wolfgang Munchau in
>> today's FT who says in polite language how the Germans wonAs for a
>> Plan B, Stathis Kouvelakis, member of Syriza CC will have an important
>> text out today and download Costas Lapavitsas book from Verso website
>>
>
> Actually, I downloaded Lapavitsas's book already from Amazon. (Btw, I
> tried originally to download it directly from Verso since Amazon is the
> anti-Christ but it failed on my Macbook.)
>
> I will be writing something today on this TINA question since our good
> friend Richard Seymour wrote them on my forehead with a magic marker. TINA
> is an *ideology* made popular (after a fashion) by Margaret Thatcher. But
> this is not the same thing as leftists trying to run a government in a
> capitalist world. In the late 80s, Tecnica worked closely with Paul Oquist,
> Nicaragua's Yanis Varoufakis. He had no solution to the government's
> increasing inability to provide the people with necessities under
> conditions of economic isolation and unending war, exacerbated by the
> USSR's disappearance as a "degenerated workers state". This is not "TINA".
> It is the hard facts of weak nations trying to move forward in a hostile
> environment.
>
> And, god, what I wouldn't give for some of that degeneration today.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Sometimes the Bosses Are Stronger

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Syriza - a collective Odysseus caught between Scylla and Charybdis!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Marv Gandall via Marxism <
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> On Feb 25, 2015, at 4:20 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
>
> > On 2/25/15 5:37 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
> >> There is a lot of scaremongering about a Grexit, and not only by
> nervous investors.
> >
> > I have yet to see anybody make the case that there wouldn't be at least
> than 2 years of pain but even if there was, the real problem is the
> underlying economy. Greece is suffering for the same reasons much of
> Eastern Europe is suffering. Its industrial base is third-tier. All this
> talk about the drachma versus the euro makes it sound like currency is the
> issue when it is one of a falling rate of profit.
> >
> FROP theorist Micheal Roberts agrees with you, thinks the issue of a debt
> default is a diversion, and that only alternative open to the Syriza is to
> take over the banks and the commanding heights of the economy while
> mobilizing the Greek and European masses in a fight for socialism.  I don’t
> believe that is your position, though it flows logically from the view that
> the real problem is the underlying capitalist economy. Frankly, I can’t see
> any other alternative for Syriza other than to repudiate the debt and
> nationalize the economy which would qualitatively distinguish it from the
> preceding Samaras government. On the other hand, I don’t know that the
> relationship of forces between the classes is such that it can be turned in
> its favour. This is the terrible dilemma facing the Tsipras government,
> which is caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The
> international left, especially that part of it which is not engaged in any
> serious political struggle, is hardly in a position to offer it tactical
> advice one way or another.
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Re: [Marxism] Left Forum recommendations?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I recommend any or all of the panel on Saturday dealing with sex work.


On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 5/27/14 1:32 PM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism wrote:
>
>>
>> I just began looking over the panels for the Left Forum this weekend. I
>> was wondering if any of you had a recommendation or two.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Glenn
>>
>
> I am not looking that forward to many of the offerings but will make a
> point of going to this on Saturday morning:
>
> lenin’s revolutionary Strategy for our times: reforms, elections,
> parliaments and the Broader Democratic Struggle 1.87
> Susan Kang,... John Jay College, CUNY, NYC
> August Nimtz...University of Minnesota
> Paul Le Blanc..La Roche College, Pittsburgh
> Ty Moore.. Socialist Alternative
>
> For me there's an interesting question of whether the Bolsheviks ever
> really urged a vote for Cadets. I have heard support for this from a number
> of people, including Mike Ely and Pham Binh each for their own reasons.
> Nimtz has a new book out on Lenin and democracy, a follow-up to his first
> book on Marx and democracy.
>
> The biggest problem with the Left Forum is that a number of the workshops
> will be structured around a group of speakers sharing the same outlook,
> making it kind of boring. You wouldn't expect the International Action
> Center to invite someone like me to speak on Syria, for example. So what
> you end up with is 3 or 4 speakers taking up 90 minutes to defend the same
> POV and then opening it up to Q&A and allowing everybody to make their
> points in 3 minutes or less. In a way it is like listening to WBAI--boring!
> That was what was so great about Samorki Marksman, he used to invite former
> directors of the CIA who respected his erudition and professional manner
> even if they disagreed totally with him.
>
> This is one of the reasons that I prefer to make my points on the
> Internet. There is no time-limit and I get a chance to sharpen my arguments
> with people who disagree totally with me. The Left Forum is a valuable
> resource for the left but it could be much better.
>
>
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Kinsley, Greenwald and Government Secrets - NYTimes.com

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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She is  quite a good Ombuddy, which makes me fearful of her chances of
holding on to her position.  Please, Margaret, don't inquire if her your
male predecessors made a higher salary than you!!


On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> A good response from the NYT Ombudsperson.
>
> http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/kinsley-greenwald-and-
> government-secrets/
> 
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Re: [Marxism] The Nicholas Kristof sex-trafficking story

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Thanks for mentioning this, Louis.

At the Left Forum, there were four panels on sex work (all in Room 1.114 of
John Jay), three of which I helped organize as a SWOP-NYC activist.
Melissa Gira Grant spoke on the non-SWOP panel organzied by the US PROS
group.  During the Q & A, I mentioned that in the news section of the same
NYT edition that carried her Op-Ed. there was an article that covered
Newsweek's coverage of the Somaly Mam scandal, and Kristof was mentioned by
name in a way that made him look quite small.

It's one thing for a Times columnist to be attacked in an Op-Ed, but when
the news section echoes the same complaint, it's crushing.


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> http://www.yasminnair.net/content/somaly-mam-nicholas-
> kristof-and-real-sex-trafficking-story
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Our Place in the World: 1441. How Veganism Can Help Save the World

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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The “culture” is more aligned with a communist nation than our nation.

Well, that would be a 'faux-communist' nation, following the semantic style
of, say, Israel Shamir, who has been rumored to refer to a certain event
during World War 2 as a 'faux-Holocaust'.

I would hope that Louis will respond to Shamey's personal attack on him in
the current Counterpunch.


On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> In 2011, more than 58 trillion chicken (more precisely, 58,110,000,000),
> nearly 3 trillion ducks (2,917,000,000), more than 1 trillion pigs
> (1,383,000,000) were slaughtered worldwide. Other farm animals slaughtered
> for food numbered in hundreds of millions each: 654,000,000 turkeys,
> 649,000,000 geese and guinea fowl, 517,000,000 sheep, 430,000,000 goats and
> 296,000,000 cattle (Meat Atlas: Facts and Figure About Animals We Eat,
> Heinrich Böll Foundation, January 3, 2014, p. 15).
>
> The great majority of these animals are raised in industrial farms under
> horrendous condition (see, for example, how chicken, pigs, sheep and cattle
> are raised in American industrial farms).
>
> full: http://forhumanliberation.blogspot.com/2014/06/1441-how-
> can-veganism-help-save-world.html
> 
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Re: [Marxism] NYU's new board of trustees chair -- his charter school is tough on 5 year olds

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Carol Burris: The “culture” is more aligned with a communist nation than
our nation.

Well, that would be a 'faux-communist' nation, following the semantic style
of, say, Israel Shamir, who has been rumored to refer to a certain event
during World War 2 as a 'faux-Holocaust'.

I would hope that Louis will respond to Shamey's personal attack on him in
the current Counterpunch.


On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> NY Times, June 14 2014
> New Chairman of Board at N.Y.U. Is Announced
> By ARIEL KAMINER
>
> New York University has announced a new leader for its board of trustees,
> one of the largest and most powerful in American academia: William R.
> Berkley, an insurance industry executive currently serving as a board vice
> chairman.
>
> Mr. Berkley will have the title of chair-designate until October 2015,
> when he will officially succeed Martin Lipton, who has overseen the
> university’s ambitious and controversial expansion in New York and around
> the world.
>
> (clip)
>
> In addition to his roles at N.Y.U., he has been active at Georgetown
> University, where he helped found the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace
> and World Affairs. In the New York metropolitan region, he has played a
> role in the charter school movement, as chairman of Achievement First,
> which operates 25 schools in three states.
>
> ---
>
> http://dianeravitch.net/2013/07/10/achievement-first-boot-
> camp-for-kiddies/
>
> Achievement First prides itself on its high test scores, but recent
> stories report that these charters are also distinguished for startlingly
> high suspension rates. Half the 5-year-olds were suspended last year.
>
> Dacia Toll, the Ivy League-educated leader of the charter chain, promised
> to cut the suspension rate in half. Instead of suspending the kids,
> apparently they will get even tougher on them in school.
>
> I have always wondered how privileged white college graduates learned to
> be so hard on impoverished black children. It is highly unlikely that what
> they do in these boot camps reflects their own home life or schooling.
>
> Here is the drill in the AF charters that gets higher test scores:
>
> “There is an urgency in the tenor of the classrooms at Achievement First
> schools; a sense that every second must be used for learning. Even on the
> last day of school at the Hartford middle school, a history teacher has a
> tightly structured lesson that students are clearly enjoying. She uses a
> timer to ensure that small tasks — like moving the desks into a U-shape for
> discussion — don’t take longer then necessary.
>
> “The schools also have a language of their own that expedites
> communication and students, for the most part, respond like a precision
> team. A teacher at Bridgeport elementary schools tells her students to:
> “SLANT, fold your hands and make a bubble.” Translation: Sit up straight,
> listen, ask and answer questions, nod to signal engagement and track the
> teacher with your eyes. And the bubble? Purse your lips and fill your
> cheeks with air — a move that ensures quiet.
>
> “For years, the Achievement First students in Hartford, New Haven and
> Bridgeport, have outperformed their peers on state tests in almost all
> grades and subjects. On a recent visit to Achievement First’s middle school
> in Hartford, a strict disciplinary code was evident.
>
> “In a large lecture hall with stadium seating — the “reflection room” —
> two or three students who had been removed from class for behavioral
> reasons sit quietly under the supervision of a staff member.
>
> “At the front of the room, the consequences of breaking the rules and the
> rewards of not doing so are spelled out on large posters that proclaim,
> “You’re not a born winner, you’re not a born loser. You’re a born chooser.
> Make the Right Choice!”
>
> “And in most classrooms, two or three students wear a white shirt over
> their blue school uniform, signaling that they are in “re-orientation” — a
> disciplinary measure that permits them to stay in academic classes but
> forbids interaction with peers and removes them from special classes like
> music or physical education.”
>
> There is something Orwellian about that “Reflection Room.” I wouldn’t let
> my children or grandchildren go to such a school. Would you?
>
> A comment posted on the article by Carol Burris, the principal of South
> Side High School in New York:
>
> “As a public school principal, if I engaged in such practices, I would be
> fired. No middle class subur

Re: [Marxism] NYU's new board of trustees chair -- his charter school is tough on 5 year olds

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Israel Shamir published an article, "The Fateful Triangle", in this
weekend's edition of Counterpunch.  Here is the relevant passage:

"US Jews are divided on the Ukraine, as they were divided on Palestine.
Friends of Palestine, people with a strong anti-imperialist record and
sound knowledge of East European history – Noam Chomsky and Stephen F.
Cohen — recognised and renounced the US attempt to sustain their hegemony
by keeping brazen Russia down. A subset of people, Gilad Atzmon aptly
called AZZ (anti-zionist zionists), Trots and other faux-Leftist shills for
NATO like Louis Proyect – called for American intervention and brayed for
Russian blood."




On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:54 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 6/14/14 4:43 PM, Sheldon Ranz wrote:
>
>> I would hope that Louis will respond to Shamey's personal attack on him
>> in the current Counterpunch.
>>
>
> I have no idea what you are referring to.
>

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Re: [Marxism] NYU's new board of trustees chair -- his charter school is tough on 5 year olds

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Excuse me, but just out of curiosity, Michael, are you the same Michael
Smith was the editor of Heights and Valley News, the paper of the Columbia
Tenants Union back in the 1980s?


On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 4:17 PM, Michael Smith via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
>
> On 6/15/14 3:27 PM, Louis Proyect wrote:
>
>> I really wonder if you have the foggiest idea of Shamir's rancid
>> politics.
>>
> I certainly do not, and don't much care. But I liked the Counterpunch
> essay --
> thought it was rather insightful, and entertaining too. Both in a way I
> find
> sadly lacking in the dour, dogmatical name-calling that constitutes much
> of Left discourse, and particularly, I'm sorry to say, on this list.
>
> It was just a couple of days ago that somebody was calling people 'dupes'
> here, because they didn't agree with him/her about Syria.
>
> Who really *enjoys* this kind of thing? Why?
>
> 
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Re: [Marxism] NYU's new board of trustees chair -- his charter school is tough on 5 year olds

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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John Ranz is my father.

Well, this is all making sense now.  The CTU, as headed by Bruce Bailey,
was a notorious anti-Semitic outfit.  Your role was chief propagandist.
The flip, amoral tone that you have employed In your reading of Israel
Shamir's piece sounded familiar, and then I remembered it from your piece
in Heights and Valley News condemning Jacobo Timerman. the Argentine Jewish
publisher of La Opinion, tortured both as a Jew and an anti-fascist by the
military regime and who went on to condemn Israel's war against Lebanon.


On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Michael Smith via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
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> ==
>
>
>
> On 6/15/14 6:44 PM, Sheldon Ranz wrote:
>
>> Excuse me, but just out of curiosity, Michael, are you the same Michael
>> Smith was the editor of Heights and Valley News, the paper of the Columbia
>> Tenants Union back in the 1980s?
>>
>
> Indeed I was. Are you related to John Ranz? Oh man, what a foolish
> Kilkenny Cats donnybrook that was. Haven't thought of it in years. John
> nearly strangled me with my own necktie on one particularly undignified
> occasion. A tough old bird.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Israel Shamir: rightwing ideologue

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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And while you're at it, Louis, put in a plug for Shamir's blatant
homophobia, displayed in the very article you so kindly sent out.

I suppose that in Mr. Smith's experience, Hitler was bad about the Jews,
but good on animal rights; therefore, no moral judgment about him can be
made.


On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> On 6/15/14 9:19 PM, Michael Smith via Marxism wrote:
>
>> I don't understand this mentality. In my experience people can be fools
>> about one topic and quite astute about another; clever today and obtuse
>> tomorrow.
>>
>
> Actually I was rather shocked to see these musings from Shamir. I had
> regarded him in the past as a anti-Semitic crank and third-rate
> "anti-imperialist" but this rant against Obama undermining capitalism threw
> me for a loop, so much so that I will be blogging about it. I had him
> pegged as a Michel Chossudovsky type but he is apparently much more like
> Paul Craig Roberts or Rand Paul.
>
> 
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Re: [Marxism] NYU's new board of trustees chair -- his charter school is tough on 5 year olds

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"This is a fine example of careless writing that means nothing."  Actually,
it means EVERYTHING, because Smith's writing style triggered my memory of
what he had done in the past, and made me suspicious (and correctly so)
 that this was the same Michael Smith who reminded my dad of Goebbels.

Oh, I suppose I could check as to the particular excuse Smith had for
bashing Timmerman, but ultimately it was the usual anti-Semitic crap.  That
was the point, after all.

In the 1980s, I was active in the Generation After ( a children of
Holocaust survivors group) and New Jewish Agenda,  and apart from my
father, I saw what Bailey and then then-wife, Nellie Hester, were up to.  I
used my program at WBAI radio, along with Leonard Lopate's "Round Midnight"
talk show,  to expose the blatant anti-Semitism (not anti-Zionism) that
Bailey was propounding.  In these efforts, I was aided by journalists
Dennis King and Katie Morgan, who were at one time members of the Columbia
Tenants Union.


On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 11:47 PM, Joseph Catron  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Sheldon Ranz via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> The CTU, as headed by Bruce Bailey,
>> was a notorious anti-Semitic outfit.
>
>
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but that was always your dad's claim
> (and, at one point, the position of the Metropolitan Council on Housing,
> although they'd stopped saying it by the time I got there). It might be
> true, but I'd want to hear more about it before I take anyone's word on it.
>
>
>> The flip, amoral tone that you have employed In your reading of Israel
>> Shamir's piece sounded familiar, and then I remembered it from your piece
>> in Heights and Valley News condemning Jacobo Timerman. the Argentine
>> Jewish
>> publisher of La Opinion, tortured both as a Jew and an anti-fascist by the
>> military regime and who went on to condemn Israel's war against Lebanon.
>>
>
> This is a fine example of careless writing that means nothing. You've
> completely neglected why Michael condemned him, whether the charges were
> valid or baseless, etc. The biography of Timerman (whom I know nothing
> about) may be admirable, but is completely beside the point.
>
> --
> "Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
> lytlað."
>

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Re: [Marxism] I hear from a supporter of the Donetsk People's Republic

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Louis Proyect = cypto-Zionist faggot White Nationalist"

...and those are just his good points!!



On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> killudeadkike commented on Blood, spirit, the family, and soil: a response
> to Israel Shamir
>
> US Jews are divided on the Ukraine, as they were divided on Palestine.
> Friends of Palestine, people with a strong …
>
> Louis Proyect = cypto-Zionist faggot White Nationalist.
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Coldplay angers fans by telling them to check out ‘Freedom for Palestine’ video - WorldViews - The Washington Post

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Uh oh - is this why Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin are no longer a couple?


On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/post/
> coldplay-angers-fans-by-telling-them-to-check-out-
> freedom-for-palestine-video/2011/06/03/AG50OvHH_blog.html
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Israel is being defeated in Gaza as it was in Lebanon

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Certainly from Israeli sources, but Hamas would not observe such a gag
order.  Couldn't Hamas launch such an attack and get someone from Al
Jazeera to report that?


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Mike Sola via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> As I understand it, the Israeli military has a gag order on reporting any
> attacks on military installations in Israel. Thus one would not know
> whether or not Hamas has attacked them.
>
> On 7/22/2014 12:23 PM, DW via Marxism wrote:
>
>> ==
>> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> ==
>>
>>
>> Dennis writes:
>>
>> "Would you also say that the Vietnamese claim of victory in 1975 after
>> suffering 4 million dead, widespread birth defects from Agent Orange,
>> unexploded bombs killing people to this day, and widespread destruction
>> leaving their nation an economic basket case unable to serve as a positive
>> model for other former colonial nations were also guilty of
>> "wishful-thinking"? Was their victory merely Pyrrhic as Chomsky has
>> suggested?"
>>
>> Terrible analogy, Dennis. The Vietnamese *won*. The Palestinians? Not so
>> much. I think the correct analogy here would be the Ted Offensive, which
>> was a lost by the NLF but proceeded the ultimate victory about 8 years
>> later. And we can discuss the Tet Offensive in this light perhaps later
>> since one can make the argument that though the offensive was totally
>> smashed, the costs to the U.S. and their S. Vietnamese puppets was
>> something they *may* of never recovered from, but in Vietnam and
>> domestically, in the U.S.
>>
>> I don't see this as the same or as so analogous to the Ted Offensive. At
>> least not yet. Comparisons with Lebanon are apt though. But here you had
>> an
>> abject *military* defeat for the IDF. They achieved none of their goals
>> though, as expressed in Israel, the Katyusha rockets *did* stop being
>> lobbed into Israel. Why the Hezbollah not once aimed those rockets at
>> Israeli military fortifications goes the stupid politics of these
>> resistance organizations which we can also discuss. [IDF forces are
>> concentrated and bunched up formation in known assembly points right
>> outside Gaza, *without Iron Dome protection*!!!].
>>
>> And Dennis, you are correct, the situation of Palestinians is completely
>> fucked in terms of choices in strategy and tactics given the military and
>> geographic reality of both Gaza and the West Bank. No doubt about it.
>>
>> But to 'claim' victory might be good for the Gaza street (which makes
>> sense
>> *there*), while Israel STILL occupies parts of the Strip  and continued
>> *unabated* is simply not a victory. When Israel withdraws, after the
>> destruction of whole sections of the Stip and the murder of perhaps
>> thousands, then 'victory' can be discussed. Until then it *disorients*
>> those fighting in solidarity with Gaza specifically and for Palestine in
>> general. I will not circulate such poorly proclamatory crap as that
>> article
>> in question.
>>
>> David
>> (also fighting for over 40 years against Zionism).
>> 
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>>
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Re: [Marxism] Hiroshima

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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How did the USSR react to the nuking of Japan?  Did it declare it as a
hostile act toward itself? Did the American Communist party praise it or
condemn it?


On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:29 AM, DW via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> The bomb wasn't dropped on Japan for 'racist' reasons. That the US was
> racist and justified it's use in part for unstated racist reasons is partly
> true; the idea that it did so as the main motivating factor shows a
> misunderstanding of Imperialism. It would of used it on Berlin (or a
> smaller city) if it the US/UK had one, say, after D-Day. The fact that the
> US (and UK) is 'racist' doesn't really mean shit with regard to pounding an
> enemy into the dirt. It didn't stop from killing *millions* of German
> citizens in carpet bombing German cities with incendiaries (which is where
> Curits LeMay go the idea from to do the same to Japanese cities).
>
> How is using the a-bomb really that much different than burning to death
> millions of civilians with "convention means" (especially as far more died
> from the conventional means than the nuclear ones). I suspect the civilians
> being incinerated really didn't care about the distinction.
>
> The reason it used the A-Bomb in large part was to to stare down the USSR
> bent on invading northern Japan, let the world know the new boss is in town
> and to generally avoid further military actions like Operation Downfall
> (assuming one buys into the controversial belief that an invasion of Japan
> was imminent and the Japanese gov't was too divided to really offer
> unconditional surrender terms).
>
> By July 1st, over 1.5 million Red Army troops were transferred to the
> Soviet Far East for such a conflict (along with destroying the Japanese
> army in Manchuria, whiich it did handily). On other hand, it's likely the
> invasion would of come off rather badly given the situation the Red Army
> faced in such an invasion, which almost mirrored the problem with Germans
> had with regards to the total lack of dedicated landing craft AND some of
> the best and experienced Japanese troops were in Hokkaido waiting for the
> Russians should they have chosen to launch such an invasion.
>
> David
> 
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Europe faces second revolt as Portugal's ascendant Socialists spurn austerity - Telegraph

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Now that Tsipras has been revealed as a sell-out after he talked a good
game, why trust Podemos, for example.  "Podemos" = "We Can"?  Hmm, Obama's
slogan was "Yes, We Can", and look how that turned out.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I'm not sure if I agree with you, since you did not specify what was
'wrong'.  But I'll have a go at this anyway.

The Black Lives Matter movement is desperate for publicity, which is
understandable given the escalation of white supremacist police violence
against African-Americans.
BLM won't mess with Hillary because she's married to the Dope from Hope,
the one who allowed Ricky Ray Rector to be executed, so they're afraid of
her or any other Clinton. But they're not afraid of Sanders, so that's
where they go. Sanders is a nice guy, and therefore a pushover in their
eyes.

Ongoing, neverending  racism has caused some of its victims to embrace the
madness of censorship.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 12:12 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
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>
>
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/250667-protesters-interrupt-bernie-sanders-rally
>
> This seems wrong, on so many levels.
>
> - Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"I don't know what you mean by saying they're not going after Hillary."

Gee, I don't know how much clearer I could be.  This is the second time
they have gone after Bernie, and still nothing about Clinton, as if she
does not exist. It looks quite suspicious.  Are they working for Hillary?
Cointelpro?  Take your pick.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Thanks, Glenn.  It all makes sense now.  Armed with this information,
Sanders should have BLM banned from all of his public events.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Absolutely not.  This is all in keeping with the Clintons' history of dirty
tricks.  Soros opposes Sanders because Sanders is campaigning to tax
billionaires and Wall Street transactions.; Clinton is not.  BLM's
persistent thuggish interruptions of Sanders (and a little O'Malley) and no
Clinton , plus what happens when you follow the money, clinches the
connection.

If this goes on, this will only help Sanders increase voter disgust with
Clinton.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"I already explained one reason that they would go after Bernie instead of
the others. Clinton and the Republicans are not the avante garde"

Martin O'Malley is also not the avant-garde, but the same BLM outfit
disrupted some of his appearances as well.  So your explanation is
counterfactual.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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What commentary are you referring to?  Mine or the BLM hecklers?  To the
extent that the hecklers 'praised him', that was just a warning that as
long as he keeps a low profile in the polls, he's not their main target.
This has nothing to do with vanguard positioning, since they are targetting
all declared Dem candidates not named Clinton.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Has anyone from the Black Lives Matter movement denounced what has been
happening in its name a la Sanders?

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:45 AM, Joseph Catron via Marxism <
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>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 11:28 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> And so what if she is a devout Christian? This sounds like it is taken from
> > a neo-atheist website, which, like many of the people Marx himself
> > criticized, believes that religion is the root of evil and that religious
> > ideas alone are responsible for the deeds of religious institutions or
> > society.
>
>
> It's a religious blogging site that publishes all kinds of content, with
> minimal editorial oversight, and is a predictably mixed bag. But yes, that
> particular article is, as you say, some of the stupidest shit I've ever
> read.
>
> If I were trying to write a parody of a smug, condescending liberal twat, I
> couldn't do nearly this well:
>
> "Apparently Johnson is unaware that Bernie Sanders was marching with Martin
> Luther King Jr. before she was even born."
>
> "Given her demeanor, it should not be surprising that Johnson is yet
> another unapologetic and obnoxious Christian."
>
> "Forget about white privilege, what about Christian privilege?
>
> "Of course there is always something particularly depressing and disturbing
> about any African American clinging to Christianity ..."
>
> Is this "Michael Stone" guy for real? Part of me - probably the part that's
> too generous - hopes he's actually the creation of a more talented satirist
> than myself.
>
> --
> "Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
> lytlað."
> _
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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No one's asking BLM to apologize - i certainly am not. It never looks good
to ask an African-American to apologize to a white in a society founded on
white supremacism.

Just follow the money.
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Re: [Marxism] Black Lives Matter protesters shut down Sanders event

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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My thoughts on this matter come from my experience working on Jesse
Jackson's 1988 Presidential campaign.  Any publicly-aired criticism made by
a white person of any African-American only caused the African-American
community to band together around the target.  It didn't matter whether the
criticism was correct or not; it was going to be dismissed as arrogant and
presumptuous.

I found that the best way for someone like myself to be productive in such
an environment was to be humble, be quiet, and hope for the best. If you
think that makes me obtuse, fine.  Your mileage may vary.
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders on Colbert

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Colbert does not do redbaiting - he does MOCK rebaiting as part of his
sendup of Bill O'Reilly and Fox News.  Don't expect that to change now that
he is a more formal talkshow host.

Much too much is made of Sanders 'preferring' the term progressive.
Haven't we all called ourselves that at one time or another?  There are
plenty of other issues to go after Sanders on, but not this.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Shalva Eliava via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Having watched a clip of that particular exchange on the Guardian just
> now, I can't say I agree that Colbert was red-baiting him.
>
> I do, however, agree that Sanders was quite cowardly and inconsistent in
> responding to that particular line of questioning...especially since he
> was just defending his "socialism" on CNN (c.f.
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/17/politics/republican-debate-bernie-sanders/).
>
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/19/bernie-sanders-visits-stephen-colbert-late-show
>
> Bernie Sanders on Colbert: socialism, Super Pacs and why 'liberal' is no
> insult
> Associated Press in New York
> Saturday 19 September 2015 09.33 EDT
>
> Equipped with a ‘Feel the Bern’ coffee cup for The Late Show host, the
> Democratic presidential candidate takes on the 1% and corporate America
>
> Bernie Sanders brought a “Feel the Bern” coffee cup for Stephen Colbert
> along with his message of lifting the middle class, and in return
> received a rock star’s welcome from the studio audience as a guest on
> The Late Show on Friday.
>
> The independent Vermont senator and Democratic presidential hopeful also
> brought along statistics to support his cause.
>
> “It is a moral outrage that the top one-tenth of 1% today owns almost as
> much wealth as the bottom 90%,” he said, adding that “58% of all new
> income is going to the top 1%”.
>
> To that, as with nearly everything he said, the audience cheered.
>
> Sanders, who is currently a strong rival to Hillary Clinton in Iowa and
> New Hampshire, said it was time Americans demand that “government start
> working for all of us, not just the few”.
>
> Colbert asked him how he expected to go all the way to the White House
> without forming a Super Pac and soliciting campaign contributions from
> big donors.
>
> “You don’t bring a spoon to a knife fight,” Colbert said.
>
> Sanders countered that he was getting small donations from hundreds of
> thousands of individual contributors instead.
>
> “I don’t support the agenda of corporate America or the billionaire
> class,” he said. “I don’t want their money.”
>
> “You are a liberal and you are a socialist, and people call you a
> liberal and a socialist,” said Colbert impishly. “Why will you not
> accept those two terms as the insults they are meant to be?”
>
> Sanders laughed.
>
> “I prefer the term ‘progressive’,” he declared.
>
>
>
> On 9/19/2015 8:24 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:
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> > *
> >
> > Posted to FB by Rick Sklader:
> >
> > Reality Check: Bernie Sanders appeared on The Late Show Friday night
> > with Stephen Colbert. Colbert kept calling Sanders a Socialist.
> > Basically Colbert was red baiting Sanders. Now if it had been me or
> > many of you I am confident that we would have either counter attacked
> > this assault by talking truth to power.
> >
> > So how did Mr front runner respond? "Stephen I pre- fer to be called a
> > PROGRESSIVE" (emphasis added).
> >
> > Tacking to the right the mark of a highly principled Socialist
> > yearning to sit in the Oval Office hiding from everyone he's lying to
> > now.
> > Get used to it because it's part of a pattern
> > _
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Re: [Marxism] Mike Whitney must be having an orgasm right now

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Don't insult orgasms!

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> NY Times, Oct. 7 2015
> Escalating Syria Attack, Russia Fires Missiles From Warships
> By ANNE BARNARD and ANDREW E. KRAMER
>
> BEIRUT, Lebanon — The Russian military, sharply escalating its military
> intervention in Syria, launched 26 medium-range cruise missiles on
> Wednesday from four warships in the Caspian Sea, while providing air
> support for a ground offensive by pro-government forces.
>
> Russian officials said the missiles — which traveled more than 900 miles,
> through Iranian and Iraqi airspace — struck 11 targets in Syria, but they
> did not specify which groups were hit.
>
> It was not clear whether the missile strike was coordinated with the
> ground offensive, which was reported by antigovernment activists and
> insurgents around the central province of Hama, as well as by the
> television station of Hezbollah, an ally of Syria’s based in Lebanon.
>
> The Kremlin would not confirm that a ground offensive had begun, though a
> spokeswoman for the Foreign Ministry, Maria V. Zakharova, said that
> “coordination is taking place with the Syrian Army, that is unequivocal.”
>
> The news of the missile attack came via a televised meeting between the
> Russian defense minister, Sergei K. Shoigu, and President Vladimir V.
> Putin. “That we fired from the territory of the Caspian Sea, at a range
> greater than 1,500 kilometers, and hit targets precisely, this shows high
> qualifications,” Mr. Putin said, referring to naval crew members. Mr.
> Shoigu said that no civilians had been injured in the assault.
>
> The ground offensive in Syria is taking place in coordination with Russian
> warplanes operating from an airfield in western Syria, and the offensive
> will include the Syrian Army, Hezbollah forces on the ground and Russian
> air power, all in coordination with Iran, according to an official with
> that alliance.
>
> Although the offensive remains in its early stages, it is significant
> because it is the beginning of a wider, coordinated assault that reveals
> close collaboration between Syria and its main allies — Hezbollah, Iran and
> Russia — the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because
> the parties had not detailed the coordination of military strategy.
>
> The assault aims to push back gains early this year by an insurgent
> coalition, the Army of Conquest, that threated the government-held coastal
> province of Latakia, crucial territory for the Syrian government, the
> official said, adding that it was the first time since those setbacks in
> the spring that government forces had moved “from defense to offense.”
>
> The ground operation will eventually include new contingents of fighters
> from Hezbollah, a Shiite militia that has long played a crucial role on the
> front lines, as well as Syrian forces backed by Russians in the air,
> according to the official. In addition, Iranian military advisers have long
> been active on the ground in Syria and would most likely be involved in
> such a crucial operation.
>
> Speaking in tones of new confidence and optimism, the official called the
> Russian intervention a game-changing development that put to rest any
> doubts about Russia’s commitment to Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad, who
> has managed to cling to power despite a civil war that is now in its fifth
> year.
>
> The ground offensive aims to push insurgents out of high ground that
> threatens the rear of Latakia, first in northern Hama Province, where
> Wednesday’s attacks took place, and later moving north into Idlib Province,
> according to the official and to diplomats and analysts in the region.
> Likely targets include Jabal al-Zawiya, a mountainous area that insurgents
> have held for years, and Jisr al-Shughour, a city in Idlib Province whose
> capture by insurgents in March was considered an ominous sign for the
> government.
>
> Russian officials have said since the beginning of their air war that they
> were targeting Islamic State militants, even when bombs fell on territories
> held by other insurgent groups that oppose Mr. Assad, including in areas
> where witnesses reported seeing heavy bombardments on Wednesday.
>
> The strikes have hit the Army of Conquest, an Islamist faction tha

Re: [Marxism] Netanyahu: Hitler not so bad, it was the fault of Palestinian jihadists

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Nutty Yahoo: Holocaust Revisionist!

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism <
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>
> Netanyhau: Hitler Only Wanted to Expel Jews, but Jerusalem Mufti Told Him
> to Burn Them
>
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.681525?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook
>
> Prime minister tells World Zionist Congress that Haj Amin al-Husseini
> convinced Hitler to exterminate the Jews, a claim that was rejected by most
> accepted Holocaust scholars.
> Haaretz Oct 21, 2015 3:25 AM
>
> Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sparked public uproar when on Wednesday
> he claimed that the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the one
> who planted the idea of the extermination of European Jewry in Adolf
> Hitler's mind. The Nazi ruler, Netanyahu said, had no intention of killing
> the Jews, but only to expel them.
>
> In a speech before the World Zionist Congress in Jerusalem, Netanyahu
> described a meeting between Husseini and Hitler in November, 1941: "Hitler
> didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the
> Jew. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, 'If you expel them,
> they'll all come here (to Palestine).' According to Netanyahu, Hitler then
> asked: "What should I do with them?" and the mufti replied: "Burn them."
>
> Netanyahu's remarks were quick to spark a social media storm, though
> Netanyahu made a similar claim during a Knesset speech in 2012, where he
> described the Husseini as "one of the leading architects" of the final
> solution.
>
> The claim that Husseini was the one to initiate the extermination of
> European Jewry had been suggested by a number of historians at the fringes
> of Holocaust research, but was rejected by most accepted scholars.
>
> The argument concerning Husseini's role was recently mentioned in a book
> by Barry Rubin and Wolfgang G. Schwanitz, "Nazis, Islamists, and the Making
> of the Modern Middle East." The authors, like Netanyahu, draw a straight
> line between the mufti's support of Hitler and the policy of the
> Palestinian Liberation Organization under Yasser Arafat.
>
> But even these two researchers do not claim that the dialogue described by
> Netanyahu ever took place. They say Hitler reached the conclusion to
> exterminate the Jews because of his desire to nurture Husseini, who opposed
> the transfer of Jews to pre-state Israel
> read more:
> http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.681525?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook
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Re: [Marxism] BLM Activists Interrupt Hillary Clinton

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Who knows?  With the Clintons, anything is possible.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 5:15 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
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>
>
> http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/video_black_lives_matter_activists_shout_down_hillary_clinton_during_crimin
>
> I'd like some elaboration from Sheldon Ranz and others on this list as to
> whether or not Hillary Clinton, George Soros, and COINTELPRO were behind
> this one as well.
>
> - Amith
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Re: [Marxism] How can we stop white male Christian terrorism?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Actually, WMCs are emerging as a minority, with many of them dying off at a
faster rate than non-WMCs, according to recent studies cited by Paul
Krugman and Barbara Ehrenreich.  So perhaps tracking collars isn't so
pie-in-the-sky after all.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 5:45 AM, John Passant via Marxism <
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>
>
> How can we stop white male Christian terrorism?
>
> All Christians are suspect. Tracking collars? Closing the borders? Will
> that help stop white male Christian terrorism? [Sarcasm alert.]
>
>
> http://enpassant.com.au/2015/12/02/how-can-we-stop-white-male-christian-terrorism/
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Spike Lee Did the Wrong Thing

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Thanks for sharing, Louis.

The critic mentions Liberia, but does not discuss it further.  If the
Lysistrata approach worked there, what's wrong with a filmmaker proposing
it here?

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Chi-Raq contributes to a long-held tradition of citing Black women’s
> bodies as both the source and the solution to social problems. In the film,
> he has  the movement completely rely upon the premise of hot young scantily
> clad women refusing to have sex with their gangsta men. The inference is
> that Black women have so much power and we can fix society if only we would
> use our sexual power. In other words, all the responsibility is on us—and
> our genitalia.
>
>
> http://therealnews.com/t2/component/content/article/481-stacey-patton/2581-spike-lee-did-the-wrong-thing
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Activist actor James Cromwell arrested in power plant protest | Film | The Guardian

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Awesome!  From Stretch Cunningham on "All in the Family" to Zefrem Cochrane
in "Star trek: First Contact", who knew?

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Turns out that the star of "Babe" was a leftist for as long as me.
>
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/21/actor-james-cromwell-arrested-ny-power-plant-protest
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Bernie Sanders on Fidel Castro and Cuban communism at debate (video).

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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I support Bernie, but he can be weird.  How can he be so reasonable on Cuba
but condemn Hugo Chavez as a communist tyrant?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 7:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
>
>
>
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/03/09/bernie_sanders_on_fidel_castro_and_cuban_communism_at_debate_video.html
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Re: [Marxism] On Bernie's message and his surge in support

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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You ended your post with "Cheers".  That was a joke, right?

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 11:21 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
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>
> I don't think the list has ignored the Sanders campaign.  It's just that
> there's very little new to say about this.
>
> Many of us who are not supporters of his campaign have been watching it
> with interest and a great deal of gratification for his level of support
> says about the political possibilities.  I want as many people inclined to
> support it to enter into it.  Invest your blood, sweat and tears in the
> effort.  The more who do so, the more the Democratic Party will persuade
> them--as it did me and many like me in 1968--that our views have ultimately
> never mattered to it.
>
> And I do get the theoretical objections to supporting any party of the
> class enemy . . .
>
> But I have been primarily concerned with the practical questions the
> campaign raises.  I've posed these here, on North Star, on Facebook
> continually and they remain entirely unaddressed.
>
>  In the last half century, the Democrats have never--not ever--picked the
> most progressive candidate running.  This includes candidates who outpolled
> in the primaries the candidate who ultimately gets the nomination.
>
> In the past, when a progressive candidate starts showing strength, we have
> seen the media give them less coverage and to make the lion's share of that
> coverage quoting other people about how terrible they are?  Hasn't that
> happened more and more?  What they did wheeling out the relics of the civil
> rights movement to serve as slanderers and liars against Sanders was just
> the beginning.  Then they can always Howard Dean him.
>
> And--again as predicted by the skeptics--they've dealt out the delegates in
> way to minimize the will of the Democratic voters.
>
> Does no one else remember 1968?  Even in 1972, when McGovern got the
> nomination (he wasn't nearly as progressive as Chisholm, btw), the powers
> in the party stepped back and let the campaign crash so that they could
> rebuild it into what they wanted it to become.
>
> Good grief, people!  How oblivious are we to the history through which many
> of us actually lived?   Conversely, how eager are we to embrace a
> faith-based willful ignoring of that history?  What reason do you have for
> thinking that will change?  Do you think the party of Patriot Acts and
> drones and oil spills and militarization of the police has become somehow
> kinder and gentler than it was in the 1990s or earlier?
>
> I've heard no coherent response other than that I shouldn't be such a big
> old cynic spreading the blue meanies among the cherubic youth.
>
> But certainly none of the very real support Sanders has gotten--which he
> and his supporters have worked terribly hard to earn, I know--begins to
> answer those concerns.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark L.
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Re: [Marxism] PS on Patty Duke

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Perhaps they were compensating!

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
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>
> It's funny how people who played lightweight comedy roles on lightweight
> American TV in the 60s were sometimes fairly progressive:
> Patty Duke from 'The Patty Duke Show', which was pretty mindless teenage
> entertainment
> Elizabeth Montgomery from 'Bewitched' (she did the commentary on the
> excellent doco 'The Panama Deception, for instance)
> Sally Field from 'Gidget' (more mindless teenage entertainment) and 'The
> Flying Nun' who went on to do the excellent 'Norma Rae' movie
>
> Phil
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing privileging of
Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
exceptions. "

Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his
criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile
(who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.  It's the
same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the US Black
Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging" the
criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Authority over mine, a
non-Palestinian.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:36 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
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>
> Nada Elia making precisely the point about Jewish privilege and chauvinism
> that the assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou and
> I over the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.
>
> One of several very good articles by this scholar.
>
>
> http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/it-is-time-to-stop-celebrating-jewish-dissent-in-the-palestine-solidarity-movement/
>
> The list of BDS successes seems to grow longer every day.  More
> professional associations are endorsing the academic boycott of Israel,
> cultural workers continue to denounce Israeli abuses, and labor unions,
> churches, even cities are divesting from companies that benefit from
> Israel’s illegal practices. These are all wonderful manifestations of the
> advances we are making.  Ultimately, however, BDS is not economic warfare.
> If it were, we would be doomed to fail, because we can successfully boycott
> every Israeli item in every grocery store in the entire country, we would
> still not be making a dent in the US funding of Israel’s war crimes.
> Indeed, the Obama Administration has just announced that it would give
> Israel the largest aid package yet.  Our biggest BDS victory achieved so
> far by activists for Palestinian rights may well be the discourse change
> that BDS has produced in the West.
>
> Judged by that criterion, it is absolutely clear that we are winning.  We
> have not yet achieved our goals, namely justice for Palestine, and indeed
> the situation on the ground in Palestine seems to have worsened as home
> demolitions and extra-judicial executions are daily occurrences, even as
> the siege on Gaza continues to choke that part of the country, reminding us
> of the urgency of our activism here. But the change on the ground cannot
> happen without a change in the global narrative that misrepresented
> Palestine.  And that change, the shattering of the once iron-clad Zionist
> narrative, is happening, as we regularly hear and read denunciations of
> Israel’s abuses in various forums. This was most obvious when US
> presidential candidate Bernie Sanders spoke at a nationally televised
> electoral debate about Palestinian rights, and Israel’s “disproportionate
> response.”  Only days later, Pulitzer Prize laureate Michael Chabon gave a
> powerful interview in which he describes the horrors he witnessed while on
> a tour of Hebron.
>
> Chabon’s interview circulated amongst Palestinian-rights activists like
> brush fire on a scorching day, most often prefaced with an explanation that
> he is a “Jewish-American writer.”  This information, certainly offered with
> the best intentions, is nevertheless treacherous, in that it can uphold an
> oppressive dynamic.
>
> Jewish voices are welcome, of course, in the global denunciation of Zionism
> as a racist ideology.  Identifying oneself as Jewish when one speaks out
> against Israel’s policies also helps dismantle the accusation that seeking
> justice for Palestinians is anti-Semitic.  Yet there is an inevitable risk
> associated with the ongoing privileging of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
> This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
> the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
> exceptions.  It is these “exceptions,” then, that Palestinian rights
> activists place on a pedestal.
>
> The privileging of Jewish voices is more serious than whites denouncing
> anti-Black racism.  Because when whites denounce racism, there is no
> suggestion that they too are victimized by 

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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What is "simple" about that?  Do you really not get the concept that when
members of an ethnic group - ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by
other members of the same group, those comments are taken more seriously
that those of outsiders?  It's all about being on the inside giving one a
better vantage point.  This has nothing to do with "Zionist racism" or any
other bogeyman you choose to summon because you're frustrated.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:58 PM, A.R. G  wrote:

> "Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his criticisms of Israel are
> to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile (who might be
> anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public. "
>
> What is "simple" about that? That is the central part of Zionist racism:
> That political decision-making in Palestine is the exclusive provenance of
> Jews from anywhere in the world and that opposition generally should be
> seen as "anti-Semitic". Her entire point is that that isn't so "simple".
>
> I'm not sure what you mean to compare Jews in America or elsewhere to
> black people in America. The analogy (if one is necessary) would be to
> white people in America. Following your logic (admittedly this is a cheap
> analogy) it would mean that we should promote white people's voices because
> they have greater legitimacy and are less likely to be written off as black
> hatred of the white, or due to "fears of a black planet," or because Glenn
> Beck and Alex Jones' moronic followers believe that blacks are out to get
> them.
>
> In the short run, it might be a simpler way to convince racists, but in
> the long term it reaffirms that blacks (and Palestinians) are secondary and
> that solidarity with them is limited to those who are racially approved by
> the states in question. It's like a form-vs-content contradiction.
>
> - Amith
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>
>> "Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing privileging
>> of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
>> This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly accepting
>> the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very few
>> exceptions. "
>>
>> Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means
>> his criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a
>> Gentile (who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.
>> It's the same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the
>> US Black Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging"
>> the criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Authority over mine, a
>> non-Palestinian.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:36 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> Nada Elia making precisely the point about Jewish privilege and
>>> chauvinism
>>> that the assholes from Jews Without Borders (the cult that attacked Lou
>>> and
>>> I over the Alison Weir debacle) keep trying to promote.
>>>
>>> One of several very good articles by this scholar.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/it-is-time-to-stop-celebrating-jewish-dissent-in-the-palestine-solidarity-movement/
>>>
>>> The list of BDS successes seems to grow longer every day.  More
>>> professional associations are endorsing the academic boycott of Israel,
>>> cultural workers continue to denounce Israeli abuses, and labor unions,
>>> churches, even cities are divesting from companies that benefit from
>>> Israel’s illegal practices. These are all wonderful manifestations of the
>>> advances we are making.  Ultimately, however, BDS is not economic
>>> warfare.
>>> If it were, we would be doomed to fail, because we can successfully
>>> boycott
>>> every Israeli item in every grocery store in the entire country, we would
>>> still not be making a dent in the US funding of Israel’s war crimes.
>>> Indeed, the Obama Administration has just announced that it would give
>>> Israel the largest aid package yet.  Our biggest BDS victory achieved so
>>> far by activists for Palestinian rights may well be the discourse change
>>> that BDS has produced in the West.
>>>
>>> Judged by that criterion, it is absolutely clear that we are winning.  We
>>> have not yet achieved our goals, namely justice for Palestine, and indeed
>>> the situation on the ground in Palestine se

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Actually, I would find it suspicious to have white people condemn Bill
Cosby, especially in a public setting, given the history of
institutionalized racism and lynching in the USA..

The point I have been making here about the insider perspective having more
credibility has nothing to do with Zionism or an anti-Palestinian
narrative. Many anti-Zionist Jews and non-Zionist Jews would agree.  It
seems that you conflate anything you don't like about what's going on in
the Jewish community into an attack on Zionism.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 11:04 PM, A.R. G  wrote:

> "Do you really not get the concept that when members of an ethnic group -
> ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by other members of the same
> group, those comments are taken more seriously that those of outsiders?"
>
> No, I do not agree with this. It depends highly on the subject matter and
> the nature of the criticism. Moreover, when we are talking about issues
> that are fundamentally related to race and rights, I think saying that
> members of the "same" ethnic group have greater credibility is essentially
> a validation of the racism in question. I do not think that is necessarily
> unique to Zionism, but it applies.
>
> I am also not blind to the fact that, from a pragmatic standpoint, what
> you are saying is simply a bitter fact of the world we live in. But I do
> not think it is ethical or strategic to leave this unquestioned. It is
> fundamentally what the issue of Zionism is -- that Jewish people from any
> part of the world are entitled to a say in the fate of Palestine, whereas
> the Palestinians and those who identify woth them are secondary and
> presumably nefarious.
>
> To make the point, I do not think most reasonable people would find it
> suspicious to hear a non-Muslim condemn ISIS, a white person condemn Bill
> Cosby, etc. Maybe in some contexts, but that certainly isn't the norm.
>
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>
>> What is "simple" about that?  Do you really not get the concept that when
>> members of an ethnic group - ANY ethnic group = are criticized in public by
>> other members of the same group, those comments are taken more seriously
>> that those of outsiders?  It's all about being on the inside giving one a
>> better vantage point.  This has nothing to do with "Zionist racism" or any
>> other bogeyman you choose to summon because you're frustrated.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:58 PM, A.R. G  wrote:
>>
>>> "Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means his criticisms of Israel
>>> are to be taken more seriously than that of a Gentile (who might be
>>> anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public. "
>>>
>>> What is "simple" about that? That is the central part of Zionist racism:
>>> That political decision-making in Palestine is the exclusive provenance of
>>> Jews from anywhere in the world and that opposition generally should be
>>> seen as "anti-Semitic". Her entire point is that that isn't so "simple".
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean to compare Jews in America or elsewhere to
>>> black people in America. The analogy (if one is necessary) would be to
>>> white people in America. Following your logic (admittedly this is a cheap
>>> analogy) it would mean that we should promote white people's voices because
>>> they have greater legitimacy and are less likely to be written off as black
>>> hatred of the white, or due to "fears of a black planet," or because Glenn
>>> Beck and Alex Jones' moronic followers believe that blacks are out to get
>>> them.
>>>
>>> In the short run, it might be a simpler way to convince racists, but in
>>> the long term it reaffirms that blacks (and Palestinians) are secondary and
>>> that solidarity with them is limited to those who are racially approved by
>>> the states in question. It's like a form-vs-content contradiction.
>>>
>>> - Amith
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>>>
 "Yet there is an inevitable risk associated with the ongoing
 privileging of Jewish voices denouncing Israel.
 This is because by privileging their voices, we are implicitly
 accepting the Zionist narrative of Israel representing all Jews, with very
 few
 exceptions. "

 Here, the writer stumbles.  Identifying Chabon's ethnicity simply means
 his criticisms of Israel are to be taken more seriously than that of a
 Gentile (who might be anti-Semitic) in the eyes of the general public.
 It's the same as 'privileging' the criticisms by Black Agenda Report of the
 US Black Establishment over those made by white people, or "privileging"
 the criticisms of Nada Elia of the Palestine Autho

Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more seriously
by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, "

Actually, quite true.  The most recent example of this is Bernie Sanders
publicly criticizing Netanyahu and not going to the AIPAC conference.  Even
the mainstream media made note as to how his dissent, as the Jewish
presidential contender, made Jewish voices opposed to Israel's government
more respectable.

In addition, in my own liefetime experience as an American Jew, the same
has applied.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> @DW
>
> Listen, I agree with you that this is a "minefield". That is why I think we
> should be careful. Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more seriously
> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, and it is also loaded
> in that we often define race/ethnic group depending on what the subject
> matter is. I.e. a black Jewish guy and a white Jewish guy would not be
> understood to be members of the same ethnic group if they are talking about
> race relations in America, or race relations *domestically* within the
> Israeli Jewish community, but they would be seen as the same race in
> discussing, say, Israel's "return" laws.
>
> "I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a
> lot
> of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
> regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
> least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
> their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
> map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid of."
>
> Is that really what you got? She didn't say Jews should stop being
> anti-Zionist. She is talking about whether or not their being anti-Zionist
> *as
> Jews* is a helpful form of advocacy. One can be Jewish but identify their
> allegiance with the Palestinian cause for a number of reasons (out of
> political conviction; out of anti-colonial solidarity; out of some other
> thing). It does not have to be a framework in which one's "Jewishness" is
> the (or even a) defining feature of what legitimates a person's voice. Her
> argument about Chabon was on that point: Why were other activists
> identifying him as a Jewish-American when it had no apparent relevance to
> the arguments he was making? And in so far as it is relevant, what makes it
> relevant other than Israel's stranglehold over both Jewish identity and
> Palestine itself?
>
> "Given the huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
> politics, it's necessary to emphasis whenever it comes up, that not all
> members of this community follow the Zionist party line. How is that
> "privileging" anything whatsoever?"
>
> Again, where does she argue this? I think you're reading other arguments
> into her piece. But in either case, to answer, you are self-admitting that
> there is a "huge political influence of groups of Jewish-Americans in US
> politics". If you are openly stating that that is the reason why Jewish
> dissenting voices need to be promoted, I'm at a loss. That is, by
> definition, privilege. It is the same as saying white people had greater
> political influence (and still do) so we need more of them in anti-racist
> causes. If they get upset or exhibit intolerance toward blacks in the
> group, we should nonetheless tolerate it because of how politically
> significant they are. "Privilege" in a nut-shell.
>
> Re: Weir, I think she has made some decisions I disagree with, but I feel
> that way about virtually everyone I've met in left circles. I think the
> characterization you have of both her website and her talks is completely
> off. Even a brief perusal of her website makes it clear that her advocacy
> is not based on American exceptionalism. It is simply geared toward an
> American audience ("If only you people knew!!!"), much in the same way left
> anti-war organizers have always emphasized "the war is at home," etc. To
> the extent that Walt/Mearsheimer-style realism appears on her website or in
> her advocacy (and mind you, it appears everywhere else including 

Re: [Marxism] The LIES about Stanford SJP

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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It's not trolling if it's true.  And given my own clashes with you on this
list, my gut tells me Jeff is right on this issue.

On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 10:32 AM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> How is this not trolling?
>
> On Saturday, April 30, 2016, Jeff via Marxism  >
> wrote:
>
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> > *
> >
> >
>
> --
> - Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Nada Elia: Time to Stop Celebrating Jewish Dissent in Palestine Solidarity Mvmt

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Amith: "You appear at this point to be insisting that your own opinion is
simply a matter of fact, so I guess we're at an impasse."

Well, pardon me, but aren't you doing the EXACT same thing that you accused
me of doing?  Your characterization of the "flip" side for American Muslims
is just you passing off your own opinion as fact.

Your position doesn't even make sense, since, for example, Muslims who
voted for Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primaries will certainly have
more credibility in the eyes of progressive outsiders when critiquing other
Muslims. It has become useful in undermining Islamaphobic propaganda.


On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:20 PM, A.R. G  wrote:

> *I'd note, however, Sheldon, that you made this argument for ANY ETHNIC
> GROUP, not just your own, and you did not even appear to limit it to race
> related issues.
>
> Take the flip side for American Muslims. Not only are they seen as less
> sincere and credible when they criticize Islamic extremist groups, the
> insinuation that President Obama is a Muslim is used precisely to discredit
> his (so-called) counter-terrorism policies. It is almost the exact
> opposite: being Muslim does not give you greater credibility when
> criticizing other people who are namesake Muslims (i.e. ISIS), it
> undermines it.
>
> You appear at this point to be insisting that your own opinion is simply a
> matter of fact, so I guess we're at an impasse.
>
> - Amith
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Sheldon Ranz  wrote:
>
>> "Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
>> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more
>> seriously
>> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, "
>>
>> Actually, quite true.  The most recent example of this is Bernie Sanders
>> publicly criticizing Netanyahu and not going to the AIPAC conference.  Even
>> the mainstream media made note as to how his dissent, as the Jewish
>> presidential contender, made Jewish voices opposed to Israel's government
>> more respectable.
>>
>> In addition, in my own liefetime experience as an American Jew, the same
>> has applied.
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:58 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>>> *
>>>
>>> @DW
>>>
>>> Listen, I agree with you that this is a "minefield". That is why I think
>>> we
>>> should be careful. Already one poster has suggested that it is simply
>>> common sense that members of the same ethnic group are taken more
>>> seriously
>>> by outsiders. That is, factually speaking, not true, and it is also
>>> loaded
>>> in that we often define race/ethnic group depending on what the subject
>>> matter is. I.e. a black Jewish guy and a white Jewish guy would not be
>>> understood to be members of the same ethnic group if they are talking
>>> about
>>> race relations in America, or race relations *domestically* within the
>>> Israeli Jewish community, but they would be seen as the same race in
>>> discussing, say, Israel's "return" laws.
>>>
>>> "I'm not sure what Nada Elia complaining about. Quite honestly she put a
>>> lot
>>> of good brain power into this essay and proposes absolutely zip with
>>> regards to addressing "Jewish privilege". Nothing. And, she's wrong, at
>>> least as far as I can interpret it. She praises anti-Zionist Jews for
>>> their solidarity and then condemn's them for doing it. She's all over the
>>> map on this and leaves me totally bewildered as to what she is afraid
>>> of."
>>>
>>> Is that really what you got? She didn't say Jews should stop being
>>> anti-Zionist. She is talking about whether or not their being
>>> anti-Zionist *as
>>> Jews* is a helpful form of advocacy. One can be Jewish but identify their
>>>
>>> allegiance with the Palestinian cause for a number of reasons (out of
>>> political conviction; out of anti-colonial solidarity; out of some other
>>> thing). It does not have to be a framework in which one's "Jewishness" is
>>> the (or even a) defining feature of what legitimates a person's voice.
>>> Her
>>> argument about Chabon was on that point: Why were other activists
>>> identifying him as a Jewish-American when it had no apparent relevance to
>>> the arguments he was making? And in so far as it is relevant, what makes
>>> it
>>> relevant other than Israel's stranglehold over both Jewish identity and
>>> Palestine itse

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Who Does Tulsi Gabbard Represent?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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If she's an ultra-Zionist and a Democrat, why isn't she supporting Clinton?
That's the mystery.

On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 2:46 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
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>
> She is an ultra-Zionist and a BJP-apologist. Fuck Tulsi Gabbard.
>
> - Amith
>
> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:17 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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> >
> > Gabbard is also a featured speaker at this:
> >
> >
> http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/06/06/what-happens-next-peoples-summit-fortify-sanders-political-revolution
> > I've emailed one of the organizers I know to complain, no response yet.
> > _
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Re: [Marxism] Sanders and Clinton

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"I suppose you could argue that the platforms reflect something of what the
base wants, but that's BS, too."

I believe the Sanders campaign is using Newt Gingirich's "Contract With
America" as an example of how to recruit new officeholders around a list of
demands.  The hoped-for new platform is designed to have a major
substantive impact NOT on the White House, but on Berniecrats in the
upcoming Congress and state-wide offices.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
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>
> Naive indeed.  Anyone who thinks that writing crap on a piece of paper is
> going to bind Hillary Clinton or the Democratic Party to do anything just
> hasn't been paying attention.
>
> In fact, the party platform has more often than not never more than a list
> of phony promises.   It hasn't mattered much in American politics for over
> half a century.
>
> More than this, since the 1970s, we've had presidential candidates running
> for office on positions just the opposite of what their platform says.
> Nobody cared.
>
> Indeed, nobody's even notices that since the invention of the sound
> byte.
>
> I suppose you could argue that the platforms reflect something of what the
> base wants, but that's BS, too.
>
> Heck, I don't think even political scientists spend much time on platforms.
>
> ML
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Re: [Marxism] Reminder!!!!!!!

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"...or else I will be forced to send you to a labor camp in New Jersey to
be reeducated."

How's that for an extraneous text clip?

Avoiding Chris Christie as a *kommandant *is a powerful motivating tool.

On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> Comrades have become lax once again on the clipping question. Please humor
> me. I beseech you to clip extraneous text in your reply or else I will be
> forced to send you to a labor camp in New Jersey to be reeducated.
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Clinton Endorsement Backfires: Sanders’ Supporters Look to Jill Stein | Observer

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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"Sanders has betrayed the hopes of the Bernie Army"

No, he has not.  He has maintained from the outset of the race that he
would support the Democratic nominee.  He kept his word, proving that
unlike most elected officials, he is honest.  Most of the "Bernie Army"
supported him precsiely because his honesty set him apart from the rest.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 1:14 AM, Gary MacLennan via Marxism <
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>
> Sanders has betrayed the hopes of the Bernie Army.  But he is only a symbol
> that the built their hopes upon.  He can easily be replaced. Hopefully,
> they will have learned not to put their trust in princes!
>
> comradely
>
> Gary
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://observer.com/2016/07/clinton-endorsement-backfires-as-sanders-supporters-look-to-jill-stein/
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Re: [Marxism] The left's abandonment of females - CounterPunch

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Julian Vigo, along with Gail Dines and Robert Jensen, is a regular
anti-porn figure at Counterpunch. She specializes in ecofeminist
transphobia. She assumes that all women in general share her opinion of the
sex industry.

Jeremy Corbyn endorsed Amnesty International's recent call for
decriminalization of prostitution, as have many left women feminists who do
not bow and scrape before the shadow of Andrea Dworkin.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 12:45 PM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
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>
> clip -
>
> There is a pattern among many leftist publications
>  ineluctability-of-online-abuse-8ab2ab460ea0#.b4pqnhg3j>
> which
> consider themselves to be “anti-sexist
> ” to engage in
> patently sexist practices by shifting away from from issues
>  that specifically affect women or
> by taking sides in debates where women’s bodies and lives are suddenly
> rendered commodity.  Suddenly the tone of what is acceptable historical
> materialism shifts radically when women are pointing out issues that
> pertain to their reality.  Quite suddenly there is no room for debate and
> where there is a need for discussion about issues that directly effect
> women, the left is largely abandoning the voices of women as both political
> constituents and political thinkers.
>
> In recent years there has been one attempt after another another to shut
> down any debate when it comes to identity politics and we have moved from
> Descartes’ *cogito ergo sum* to *I feel therefore shut the fuck up*. And
> this trend can be seen across the board with callout culture
>  sebastian-budgen-burn-notice-against-ross-wolfe-lol.pdf>
> persisting
> from sub-factions of the left which in turn results in the likes of certain
> writers publishing astute critiques
>  accommodation-of-difference/>
>  of identity politics
> , only
> to
> suddenly change course when it comes to gender and the inclusion of
> women’s voices.  As abortion rights in the US are in stiff regression and
> violence against females is increasing across the planet, women who have
> quite a bit at stake in the current political climate often find themselves
> at odds with the leftist political landscape.  Specficall the United
> Kingdom and other anglophone countries, even as there is a growing parallel
> movement that is directly addressing materialism and patriarchy
> .
>
> As the oppression of women is tied to the material reality of being female
> and not a product of that being female, feminist politics over the decades
> have been sidelined and resultantly women have been mostly abandoned by the
> left *specifically when it comes to gender. *Where the left traditionally
> rebuked identity politics, today selfhood is often embraced by the left as
> of a collection of personality traits *cum*political ideology.  Scholar and
> feminist activist Jasmine Curcio
> addresses
> this polemic and the domination of men in leftist politics, especially
> around issues pertaining to feminism:
>
> And so many years on, feminist discussions around the left continue to be
> subtly dominated by men and their perspective, with the aid of theoretical
> frameworks that marked disdain towards feminism in decades past. Men have
> become gatekeepers of feminist discussion, and many debates take place with
> ignorance, disdain, and sometimes subtle tactics of bullying. Phenomena
> that lie outside of the bourgeois-proletarian contradiction are not really
> taken on board as material facts, but either made to fit with constructed
> orthodoxy or they are discarded.
>
> Paradoxically, when women point this out, the reality of sexism bites back
> and they are regarded as “bitches,” “whores,” and even shut down both on
> social media and in public forums.  And after this interview ran, Curcio
> received a substantial backlash of attacks, stating,  “That interview
> stirred up some snide comments and some slander from men I had never met

Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Sheldon Ranz via Marxism]

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Amith: “Is there any serious case that can be made that that resistance --
and our connection
with those communities that will lead it -- would be stronger under
Donald Trump than under Hillary Clinton?”


Yes.  Hillary would get the benefit of the doubt from many progressives
because she would be the first woman President, and many male progressives
in particular would be inhibited from criticizing her for fear of being
labeled sexist.  This will dampen resistance to her Kissinger-style foreign
policies, for example.  On the other hand, what progressives would be
intimidated going after Trump?  As a white male heterosexual Christian
Republican, he’s the perfect storm for the oppressed.


Economist Michael Hudson wrote on Counterpunch recently that Hillary is the
greater evil precisely because she is more organized, intellectually
capable and has better connections to the Establishment.



On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Well said.
>
> > On Sep 1, 2016, at 6:54 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> > ...let me repeat what I have already said. My political orientation was
> based on what I learned from Peter Camejo in the early 80s. I took an
> interest in the Greens after attending a standing room only for Ralph Nader
> in 2000 and it deepened after Peter became his running mate in 2004. Nader
> was not running as a Green that year because "Demogreens" were afraid that
> he would steal votes from John Kerry.
> >
> > In other words, I am a strong supporter of the Green Party (even though
> I am not a member). I always vote Green, including for Howie Hawkins who is
> on Marxmail. Half the editorial board of the North Star website are
> involved with the Greens either as candidates (Brandy Baker and Jim Brash)
> or as frustrated members (Mark Lause).
> >
> > I have political principles that I am strongly committed to. One of them
> is total opposition to both the Democrats and Republicans. In the best of
> all possible worlds, the Labor Party that some leftish AFL-CIO bureaucrats
> formed back in the 1980s would have taken off but they lacked the nerve,
> just like the Demogreens.
> >
> > I don't think that the Greens will lead a revolution in the USA that is
> so desperately needed but it is a way-station on that path. If something
> better came along, I'd hook up with that in a heartbeat. But surely you
> must understand by now that I would rather be waterboarded than vote for
> Hillary Clinton.
>
>
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