Re: [Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, I remember that one, I was in high school in the DC area then and an activist in the Young Socialist Alliance and Student Mobe; that was part of the beginning of the buildup for the monster protest season we had that fall with the Moratorium and Mobe demos, the biggest political protests in US history up to that time. Heddy time, with Woodstock and all the rest going on. I think Karl Hess had come out as a libertarian leftist some time before that, however. > Tom Bias: > > By the way, do you all remember the incendiary phrase from Goldwater's > speech accepting the Republican nomination for President in 1964: > "Extremism > in the defense of liberty is no vice"? The speechwriter responsible for > that > was a young guy named Karl Hess. Well, the week after I joined the YSA in > 1969, I attended the Hiroshima Day antiwar demonstration in Washington, DC, > and Karl Hess was one of the speakers! He had broken with the Republicans > over the war issue (he went on to participate in the founding of the Free > Libertarian Party, the forerunner of the present-day Libertarian party). > Now, this demonstration was organized by the New Mobilization Committee, in > which the SWP played a prominent role. Was it a mistake to invite Hess to > speak? I think not. > > > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My last word on this is to note that Steve's entirely correct in describing the Tea Party movement as "the creation of the corporate media." This was why I was referring to it earlier as a "movement" in quotes. There were small circles there earlier around Ron Paul and his people, but the lobbyists swept in and moved it all to their purposes in a very direct way. Fox, in particular, followed, sharing much of the same agenda. Then came the politicians. This created a dynamic that didn't so much go anywhere but in circles. Still, it was enough to create a gigantic sucking sound as the abysmal level of American public discourse dropped still further Because of what I do and where I am, I regularly spend time with activists around these things, most recently when Joe the Plunger was here and calling for shooting immigrants. So, regrettably, I know something about it and thought the list might benefit from that. Silly me. But the main reason I participated in this row is because there is a godawful tendency of progressives across the spectrum to crank out these insights that basically blame other progressives for the pathetic state of affairs in the U.S. I remember hearing this as a drumbeat of this from Obama's apologists through coverage of the health care issue, for example. The poor pragmatic president being pressured to do unpopular things by the nasty idealogues who want him to be purist and confrontational. Why can't we all just get along? This has become more pronounced as the media more inclined to liberal stances sees the reactionary media getting to cover all this stuff. Action, drama, bile, citizens engaged in exactly the way corporations want to see them engaged. As Steve noted, the alternative might be the bigger demonstrations among the progressives, but these are embarassments. So you get the liberally inclined media tail-ending the coverage to get their piece of the action. The editorial reflection of this is conceding all sorts of street cred to what the lobbyists have put in front of their cameras. We see the radical reflection of this in a lot of the "analysis" presented here. The "Marxists" complaining that other Marxists just haven't given the teabaggers enough respect To have our best chance of winning anything, we need our own movement under our own banners. I'm beginning to think at this point, that we need a mass movement against the war(s) more than we need anything else But I've typed my last word on this for a while and thank the list for the opportunity of having been accorded the privilege ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == tom: you say: "it [the Tea Party movement] is not as big as the media would like to make it out to be." hell, tom, the Tea Party movement is a creation of the corporate media, which took tiny protests at public hearings last year and magnified them as if it were a big-time movement, which it has become BECAUSE of all the coverage. There were (and are) much bigger protests by labour, immigrants, and sundry others which never see the light on day on the corporate media. It exemplifies the basic lesson, only in reverse, derived by the ruling class from the turmoil of protest of the 1960s -- don't amplify dissent. This time they are amplifying the kind of dissent they want to hear -- government can do no good for the public interest. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Apr 18, 2010, at 12:19 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > > This has been going on for days and seems to be going around in > circles. Thanks Louis for reminding me of a fourth TP function: providing a perfect arena for MM posters to chase their tails in. Shane Mage "L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce qu'on a apporté." Bardo Thodol Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, I have something additional to say, that isn't a repeat. Everyone has stressed different aspects of the TP movement: whether the movement is about working people with legitimate fears, open racists, incipient fascists, country-club Republicans, etc., etc., and the simple fact is that all of these things are true. The Tea Party movement, to the extent that it even IS a movement, is intensely contradictory. The question for us is, what are the proper tactics to defeat this movement? Part of the answer, I believe, will involve EXPLOITING some of those contradictions and driving wedges to divide sections of the Tea Party movement against each other. One of those wedge issues is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another (related) is the PATRIOT Act. Also, socialists have an answer to the high taxes which are a real burden on many working-class families: it was the primary slogan in Rich Ariza's SWP campaign for governor of NJ in 1977: "Tax the rich, not working people." I believed in that slogan then, and I believe in it now. Obviously, we cannot in any way, even in a united-front antiwar movement, make any compromise with racism. I found out the hard way-in practice-that the pure-and-simple "single-issue" united front can't really work in the real world. In our committee, as I have reported on a number of occasions, we had to deal with an old man who was a Holocaust denier and a Nazi sympathizer who participated in our peace vigils and other activities. He wasn't part of any organized group, and we determined that he wasn't a physical danger to anyone, but we took political steps to isolate him and make clear that our committee had no sympathy for his notions. See http://nwnjpeace.org/tolerance.html. If the antiwar movement holds fast to principle, it can reach out to the Ron Paul supporters who oppose the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the PATRIOT Act. By holding fast to principle, I mean not compromising with any form of racism, sexism, or hostility to the labor movement. It will involve a certain amount of agreement to disagree. By the way, do you all remember the incendiary phrase from Goldwater's speech accepting the Republican nomination for President in 1964: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice"? The speechwriter responsible for that was a young guy named Karl Hess. Well, the week after I joined the YSA in 1969, I attended the Hiroshima Day antiwar demonstration in Washington, DC, and Karl Hess was one of the speakers! He had broken with the Republicans over the war issue (he went on to participate in the founding of the Free Libertarian Party, the forerunner of the present-day Libertarian party). Now, this demonstration was organized by the New Mobilization Committee, in which the SWP played a prominent role. Was it a mistake to invite Hess to speak? I think not. To a great extent the Tea Party movement is (pardon the expression) a tempest in a teapot: it's not as big as the media would like to make it out to be. I just watched Gov. Ed Rendell (D-PA) on "Meet the Press" talking about how they had only gotten 1500 people out to a Washington demonstration on tax day, and that if he organized a demonstration against euthanizing puppies he could get 100,000 in the streets with a snap of his fingers. Furthermore, the ruling class is hardly threatened to the point where it needs to turn to an extraparliamentary fascist movement to defend itself. Truth be told, Obama is actually doing a very good job defending the ruling class's interests, and if we stay on message explaining that, we can convince. Tom -Original Message- From: marxism-bounces+biastg=embarqmail@lists.econ.utah.edu [mailto:marxism-bounces+biastg=embarqmail@lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of S. Artesian Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 12:33 PM To: Thomas Bias Subject: Re: [Marxism] Tea bag discussion == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OK by me, but I'd like to know what Vicki White wanted to say. - Original Message - From: "Louis Proyect" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/biastg%40embarqmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == OK by me, but I'd like to know what Vicki White wanted to say. - Original Message - From: "Louis Proyect" Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Tea bag discussion
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This has been going on for days and seems to be going around in circles. Has anybody discovered new insights? Otherwise, wouldn't it be better to move on? This is not exactly a flame war, but it does seem more repetitive than usual. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
