Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com wrote: This is the answer to those who raise but what about CONAEI? (who didn't support the rebellion by police and sections of the military) or other sectors of the social movements or left that have clashed with the Correa government. The events of September 30 were not aimed at overcoming any limitations of the Correa government to open the way for further radical action, but at crushing the popular movements and removing a government that, whatever limitations it may have, is in *actual* conflict with imperialism and the Ecuadorian oligarchy, and rolling back all the gains won in recent years - including the new constitution. What is more, the defeat of this attempted coup shifts the balance of forces away from imperialism and the oligarchy in Ecuador and opens more space for further advances. Stuart CONAIE, not CONAEI, Stewart. Oh excuse me, i obviously didn't care enough about your name to even get the spelling right. CONAIE, STUART, is against the pseudo-coup. but their point is crystal-clear. There will be no advance if Correa continues on his current trajectory of bashing the indigenous sector's legitimate demands. The dirty little secret which no one wants to state out loud is that the urban mestizo population of Ecuador is largely racist to the core. So the social movement can pass a paper constitution which is all in favor of the rights of the indigenous and respect for their demands, but when push comes to shove the neo-liberal development model remains intact. The truth of the matter is there will be no real change in Ecuador until it has an indigenous president. Greg Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The truth of the matter is there will be no real change in Ecuador until it has an indigenous president. Greg You may be right, but in the here and now there is an actual conflict and an actual process with contradictions and limitations. And imperialism and the local oligarchy are trying to destroy it. That is the truth of the matter, too. Stuart Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com wrote: The truth of the matter is there will be no real change in Ecuador until it has an indigenous president. Greg You may be right, but in the here and now there is an actual conflict and an actual process with contradictions and limitations. And imperialism and the local oligarchy are trying to destroy it. That is the truth of the matter, too. Stuart And if they succeed in overthrowing Correa it will be partly his own fault, as support for him has wavered as a result of his literal physical attacks on his own base. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ah yes, the magic word has been spoken. Anybody care to explain that actual process? Those contradictions? Limitations? That magical word for magical thinking. Somehow, it reminds me of a kids' show I used to watch as a child where the hero, a green amphibian named Froggy had a magic twanger, -- a sort of string bass-- he would plunk whenever magical transformations were called for. Plunk your magic twanger, Froggy was the show's signature phrase, to the delighted squeals from an audience of 6 year olds. So keep on plunking that magic twanger of contradiction. And don't forget to hum a few bars of thesis, antithesis, synthesis. It will make everything so much clearer. And so truthy. It's got such a good beat, and you can dance to it. - Original Message - From: Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 10/2/2010 8:39 PM, S. Artesian wrote: I think everybody agrees: Oppose the coup. The question is: does opposing the coup require supporting Correa, defending Correa's right as president, of proclaiming that Correa is one of us? When did Sartesian come back? I thought he'd left, or rather, found himself outside the Marxmail community (as I have been, at least briefly, more than once, thanks to our moderator's efforts to maintain a certain level of equanimity and if not that, then civil discourse, or at least limits to the uncivil discourse on the list). AT ANY RATE, let me say as one of those who has most violently disagreed with Sartesian that it makes my heart soar like an eagle to read his comment. As to his question, I'd SAY under the circumstances of the last couple of days, there really is no perceptible difference between opposing the coup and supporting Correa. Not for any practical, political purpose. And that is why I appreciate S Artesian's friendship --and enmity-- because when push ACTUALLY comes to shove, somehow we wind up ... on the same side. I believe the more correct tone or stance GENERALLY should be that we support Correa, even as we have various ideas or comments about how to pursue freeing Ecuador from imperialist domination so as to make possible the beginning of an effort to develop a socialist society. And S Artesian thinks the correct tone and stance should be how to break people from believing that Correa can actually lead a movement forward towards freeing Ecuador from imperialist domination so as to make possible the beginning of an effort to develop a socialist society. If we were IN ECUADOR, those differences would be tremendous, insurmountable. BUT --let's be REAL materialists, and recognize we are NOT in Ecuador. The time when the question of what stance to take towards Correa for US and others outside Ecuador assumes a broader significance is ONLY times like these -- when the PRACTICAL difference in terms of a broader public between saying defend Correa and support Correa is negligible. FOR US on this mailing list the exact wording has a great deal of significance. But on the level of practical politics, like having a protest demonstrations or just talking to regular working people about these events, we ALL wind up in the same camp -- well, at any rate, it seems like S Artesian and I wind up in the same camp. At any rate, this is just a shout-out to my comrade and friend S Artesian on ONCE AGAIN finding ourselves both on the anti-imperialist side of the barricades, and if I can be allowed to do this, let me argue that if when push comes to shove this is where things wind up, should we not make more of an effort all along to make the line of cleavage and separation coincide with what they turn out to be at moments like those that Ecuador has just experienced? Joaquín Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Why thanks for all that, comrade. And I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but what's important, what determines what happens on the barricade, is what happens before it gets to the barricades themselves So the support of the Allende and the Popular Unity government disorganized the workers of Chile, strengthened reaction, and when push came to shove, prevented anyone in agreement with you, or with I, from linking up on the barricades. And similarly, the support of Zelaya doomed that struggle. I remember when we had this similar discussion prior to Morales' plebiscite in Bolivia, and you remarked that unfortunately Morales was not the leader we wished him to be, but in these dire circumstance we all had to support him. The discussion then was turned by those supporting Morales into an examination of the soviets and Bolsheviks response to Kornilov's march on Petrograd-- some were saying how the Bolsheviks had rested their rifles on the shoulder of Kerensky. In truth, as was documented in that discussion, the soviets did NOT rest their rifles on the shoulders of the provisional government, but rather, exercised dual power, and the only effective power in opposition to the provisional government. In the case of Bolivia, I would argue that supporting Morales in his plebiscite immobilized the rural and urban workers when it came to mobilizing against the terror practiced by the right in the media luna. Supporting Correa, not advancing a plan for independent mobilization against the coup, and against the policies of the Correa government will, inevitably, lead to the same immobilization. And to no barricades. Hope all is well with you. - Original Message - From: Joaquín Bustelo jbust...@bellsouth.net To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Urging expressions of solidarity with Ecuador through protests around the world, the PRT statement makes these important points: For our party, the PRT, it is clear that this coup attempt coincides with the imperialist strategy that seeks to curb the social struggles which have developed in recent years in Ecuador and Latin America and have led to significant gains, even in the midst of the contradictions of this process and the justified criticisms that may exist among the population. “In spite of these criticisms from the popular movement of the limitations or inconsistencies of the Correa government, it is clear that a coup by the police, and possibly by the military, it will not favour the people’s interests, but on the contrary will seek not only to overthrow Correa but also to sweep aside the conquests and rights of the people. That is why we must oppose this coup attempt by the police. “In this right-wing, reactionary and profoundly undemocratic action, the role of imperialism and the forces of the bourgeoisie and the oligarchy has undoubtedly been present, as it was before in Honduras, and just as it threatened the processes in Bolivia from a racist stance, and in Venezuela with the use of all the media apparatus, but without achieving their objective. “Our support for the Ecuadorean people at this time means first denouncing the coup attempt. There will be time later to discuss the best alternatives. But little progress can be achieved if we allow the bayonets again to silence the liberties of a people such as that of Ecuador ... Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is the answer to those who raise but what about CONAEI? (who didn't support the rebellion by police and sections of the military) or other sectors of the social movements or left that have clashed with the Correa government. The events of September 30 were not aimed at overcoming any limitations of the Correa government to open the way for further radical action, but at crushing the popular movements and removing a government that, whatever limitations it may have, is in *actual* conflict with imperialism and the Ecuadorian oligarchy, and rolling back all the gains won in recent years - including the new constitution. What is more, the defeat of this attempted coup shifts the balance of forces away from imperialism and the oligarchy in Ecuador and opens more space for further advances. Stuart Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Mexico's PRT: Ecuador - Stop the coup attempt in Ecuador against the Correa government
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think everybody agrees: Oppose the coup. The question is: does opposing the coup require supporting Correa, defending Correa's right as president, of proclaiming that Correa is one of us? Clearly, in Sept 1973, mobilization of the workers against the Pinochet coup was imperative [despite the statement of Allende himself who went on radio to urge the workers to stay indoors, to trust democracy]. And just as clearly effective opposition Pinochet would have required no support to the Popular Unity government. - Original Message - From: Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
