Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
From: Jeff meis...@xs4all.nl When hearing this I cannot help but remembering the (almost surely) widespread use of rape (apparently organized as a systematic policy) in the Bosnian war of the early 90's, when some Marxists (i.e. Stalinists) found themselves (for reasons I still cannot fathom) in alliance with the Serbian state and with the Bosnian Serbs. They had a similar blind spot to the incidence of rape. When questioned they would cringe and fall back on there's human rights abuses by ALL sides, but we have to concentrate on opposing imperialism which is ultimately responsible.. etc. etc. If I remember rightly, the story of 50 000 Bosnian Muslim women being raped by Bosnian Serbs, as part of an organised policy, was nothing more than propaganda designed to give a 'liberal' justification for American imperial intervention. Louis knows more about this, I think (I remember some post from him about the subject quite some time ago) - can you clarify? If we can find it amongst ourselves to understand (which is NOT the same as justify - to equate the two is just right-wing rhetoric) how some might be led to commit suicide bombings or large scale murder (which I'm sure many here would try and understand in certain contexts), then the same applies to rape. None of this is in any sense apologetics for the actions of the Red Army in Berlin. Solidarity, Ian YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
Aren't you purists forgetting what the Nazis did to Soviet womanhood George YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
2009/8/5 Bhaskar Sunkara bhaskar.sunk...@gmail.com Aren't you purists forgetting what the Nazis did to Soviet womanhood George Why is that relevant? This is relevant because every soldier in the Red Army suffered from the loss of his relatives either by rape or otherwise by Nazis. -- Dogan Göcmen (http://dogangocmen.wordpress.com/) Author of The Adam Smith Problem: Reconciling Human Nature and Society in The Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations, I. B. Tauris, LondonNew York 2007 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
And I suppose if hundreds of thousands of Afghan women were to be raped by US soldiers you would mention 9/11? German civilians who were victimized should be acknowledged as victims, that was probably the reason why Louis posted those excerpts. YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
This is the point where the discussion becomes more than inane; it becomes downright oppressive. We go from arguing that Russia wanted to keep Germany intact and was trying to make a class, or semi-class distinction, between the people and the fascists; to arguing about whether or not rape was tolerated and/or programmatic in the strategy and tactics of the Red Army; to now JUSTIFYING rape as some sort of revenge. I can only imagine what the women who read this list must be thinking. Probably something along the lines of get me out of here quick. I'm sure we're just a short post or two away from somebody channelling Eldridge Cleaver and positing that rape is a revolutionary expression by the oppressed and exploited seeking to recover their manhood that has been expropriated by _[fill in the blank with the ideological construct of your choice]. Isn't anyone embarrassed by this crap appearing on the list? I know the real content of history is not so highly regarded by those who think Trotsky was an insane adventurer and Hegel was a confused metaphysician who gave rise to reaction and those who think things aren't plus a minus are all buckler-unders and frauds, but I can't resist adding just a bit of historical detail: On Soviet advocacy of a confederated Germany. Well, confederation it may have been, but like certain friends, the confederacy would have lacked benefits. For example, David Glantz, formerly of the US Army's War College and perhaps the foremost US authority on the Red Army and Soviet strategy during WW2 writes in Slaughterhouse, The Soviets retained the approximately 30 percent of Poland they occupied in 1939 and 'compensated' post-war Poland by appropriating to it, with Allied concurrence, an almost equal land mass consisting of territory than had been German for the better part of two centuries or more. As for every soldier in the Red Army suffering loss of relatives by rape or otherwise, that too is just not the case. Nothing was more horrific that the casualties and brutality suffered over such an extended period of time by the Red Army and the Soviet population. However, by the time of the capture of Berlin, turnover in the Red Army ranks had been so severe that many of the soldiers were from areas east of the Urals that had not suffered direct fire consequences of the German, excuse me, Nazi German and allied fascist invasion. Well so much for history. I have to say, anyone trying to justify, or rationalize rape as an eye for an eye, is simply not worth talking to. And that included Eldridge Cleaver. - Original Message - From: Dogan Gocmen dgn.g...@googlemail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape 2009/8/5 Bhaskar Sunkara bhaskar.sunk...@gmail.com Aren't you purists forgetting what the Nazis did to Soviet womanhood George Why is that relevant? This is relevant because every soldier in the Red Army suffered from the loss of his relatives either by rape or otherwise by Nazis. -- Dogan Göcmen YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
My compliments to you, Mr. Artesian. You are a voice of sanity in this thread. Art Kunkin On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:31 AM, S. Artesian sartes...@earthlink.net wrote: This is the point where the discussion becomes more than inane; it becomes downright oppressive. We go from arguing that Russia wanted to keep Germany intact and was trying to make a class, or semi-class distinction, between the people and the fascists; to arguing about whether or not rape was tolerated and/or programmatic in the strategy and tactics of the Red Army; to now JUSTIFYING rape as some sort of revenge. I can only imagine what the women who read this list must be thinking. Probably something along the lines of get me out of here quick. I'm sure we're just a short post or two away from somebody channelling Eldridge Cleaver and positing that rape is a revolutionary expression by the oppressed and exploited seeking to recover their manhood that has been expropriated by _[fill in the blank with the ideological construct of your choice]. Isn't anyone embarrassed by this crap appearing on the list? I know the real content of history is not so highly regarded by those who think Trotsky was an insane adventurer and Hegel was a confused metaphysician who gave rise to reaction and those who think things aren't plus a minus are all buckler-unders and frauds, but I can't resist adding just a bit of historical detail: On Soviet advocacy of a confederated Germany. Well, confederation it may have been, but like certain friends, the confederacy would have lacked benefits. For example, David Glantz, formerly of the US Army's War College and perhaps the foremost US authority on the Red Army and Soviet strategy during WW2 writes in Slaughterhouse, The Soviets retained the approximately 30 percent of Poland they occupied in 1939 and 'compensated' post-war Poland by appropriating to it, with Allied concurrence, an almost equal land mass consisting of territory than had been German for the better part of two centuries or more. As for every soldier in the Red Army suffering loss of relatives by rape or otherwise, that too is just not the case. Nothing was more horrific that the casualties and brutality suffered over such an extended period of time by the Red Army and the Soviet population. However, by the time of the capture of Berlin, turnover in the Red Army ranks had been so severe that many of the soldiers were from areas east of the Urals that had not suffered direct fire consequences of the German, excuse me, Nazi German and allied fascist invasion. Well so much for history. I have to say, anyone trying to justify, or rationalize rape as an eye for an eye, is simply not worth talking to. And that included Eldridge Cleaver. - Original Message - From: Dogan Gocmen dgn.g...@googlemail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape 2009/8/5 Bhaskar Sunkara bhaskar.sunk...@gmail.com Aren't you purists forgetting what the Nazis did to Soviet womanhood George Why is that relevant? This is relevant because every soldier in the Red Army suffered from the loss of his relatives either by rape or otherwise by Nazis. -- Dogan Göcmen YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/artkunkin%40gmail.com -- I can teach YOU how you MIGHT be able to stay alive, healthy and happy for 200 years or more. Seriously! A new insight into ancient science! Please see my fre-e 'Immortality Health Blog at artkunkin.com. My eBook is at www.alchemyrevealed. com. To see me, roll-over my name on top) YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Red Army and rape
Geez you are an insufferable moron. A claim was made and utilized, as an excuse, a rationalization for rape that EVERY Red Army soldier had lost a relative to rape or some other barbaric practice. Every. That was the claim. I don't remember you asking for any documentation of the every. Do you have any documentation for the every? Of course you don't. You got nothin. I said nothing about war of annihilation once troops are moved into combat theaters, it's always a war of annihilation. I never said most, I said many were from the areas that had not been subject to Nazi siege. You can't even distort things properly. But let's go back into Glantz's works and get some resupply, reoutfit information: From When Titans Clashed: In practice, the Red Army's ability to create new divisions as fast as Germans smashed existing ones was a principal cause of the the German failure in 1941. [Note-- this is in 1941. Before Kursk, before the disaster of Operation Mars.] For much of the 1920s and 1930s, the Red Army had emphasized the idea of cadre and mobilization forces, formations that had very few active duty soldiers in peacetime but would gain reservists and volunteers...in wartime. As war approached in the late 1930s, the Red Army tended to neglect this concept, gradually mobilizing most of its existing units to full-time, active-duty status. Still, prewar Soviet theory estimated that the army would have to be replaced every four to eight months during heavy combat. To satisfy this need, the 1938 Universal Military Service Law extended the reserve service to the age 50 and created a network of schools to train those reservists... ...on 23 July force generation was delegated to Commissariat headquarters and the military districts. The districts OUTSIDE THE ACTUAL WAR ZONE [emphasis supplied] established a system for cloning existing active-duty units to provide the cadres that were filled up with reservists. A total of 5,300,00 reservists were called to the colors by the end of June, with successive mobilizations later. Thirteen new field armies appeared in July, 14 in August, 1 in September, 4 in October. Yet this mobilizations system, in conjuction with active duty units that moved FROM EASTERN MILITARY DISTRICTS TO THE WEST [emphasis again supplied], retained enough strength to provide 8 more armies to defend Moscow in November and December and another 10 new armies in the spring of 1942. By 1 December 1941, the Soviet mobilizagtion system had deployed 97 existing divisions to the west, while creatring 194 new divisions and 84 separate brigades from the mobilization base. Did you get that? 194 new division and 84 separate brigades from the mobilization bases that were outside the war zones. According to Glantz, these mobilization centers functioned throughout the war and played critical roles in resupply of fresh troops, before, after, and during battles. In 1944, in preparation of the attack to destroy Germany's Army Group Center, the Stavka estimated that Group Center had 42 divisions and 850,000 men. Stavka estimated its attacking forces of one million men in 77 division and 5 mobile corps and determined the number was insufficient. The Soviet forces were then reinforced by 5 combined-arms armies, 2 tank armies, 1 air army, 1 Polish field army, and 11 mobile corps, more than 400,000 troops in total. Glantz writes that during actual combat operations 2,331,000 troops engaged in Operation Bagration as it was called. Of these 178,500 were killed and 587, 308 were wounded. Still Soviet troop strength on the entire Eastern Front rose to 6,500,000. Armored forces increased from 7753 tanks to 8300 by the end of 1944. Artillery strength increased by 14% while German decline 16%. And were did this resupply come from? Soviet military casualties prior to 1944 were 26 million killed, missing, captured-- not including the wounded. The resupply came from outside the direct fire war zones. As Glantz says Speer could not generate the resources Germany need most-- trained and ready military manpower. While the battles of 1944 were disasterous for the German military, the Soviets had paid a huge price as casualties for that year reache 8 million killed, captured, or missing. During March and April 1945, the Soviet mobilization bases went to work on resupply and reinforcement for the push to Berlin. Let me know when you find the documentation of every Red Army soldier losing a relative to rape. - Original Message - From: jscotl...@aol.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:40 PM Subject: [Marxism] Red Army and rape YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
