Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
Simson Garfinkel wrote: > Dear Francesco, > > I'm sorry --- it is hard not to read your message and laugh. You > really think that the static type checking of C++ is protecting you? > Well, it may be, but C++ is unsafe in so many other ways that you are > not doing yourself a favor by working in it. > > If you want to use a typesafe language, you really should be using > Java or Python. Java will give you both static and dynamic type > checking. Python will give you runtime type checking. C++ gives you a > good feeling until something goes wrong and it crashes. > It is certainly possible to shoot yourself in the foot with C++ if you use it like it were plain C (i.e., unsafe casts, casts to void *, pointers to functions, etc.). However the C++ programming style which is sometimes referred to as "modern" C++ (cfr. Alexandrescu's book), which makes heavy use of template (meta)programming facilities, shields you very effectively from such problems. For example, you can use functors in place of pointers to functions, and if you do something wrong the compiler will error out (in place of random crashes at runtime). If I write a generic template function which requires that its argument supports a certain method, and if I use it with an argument type that does not provide such method, a compilation error will be emitted. You can use the static_cast operator to make sure at compile time that you are not performing a "dangerous" cast. And so on... Frankly, the only cases in which I usually have to resort to the pains of plain C programming are when fiddling with lower level stuff like memory allocators, SIMD programming, etc. But usually you just have to encapsulate a small amount of dangerous code into a class and provide some abstraction to interact with it and you are done. I write mostly scientific software, so abandoning C++ tout-court is not an option. Thanks to all who replied, and best regards. Francesco. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
Dear Francesco, I'm sorry --- it is hard not to read your message and laugh. You really think that the static type checking of C++ is protecting you? Well, it may be, but C++ is unsafe in so many other ways that you are not doing yourself a favor by working in it. If you want to use a typesafe language, you really should be using Java or Python. Java will give you both static and dynamic type checking. Python will give you runtime type checking. C++ gives you a good feeling until something goes wrong and it crashes. On Feb 29, 2008, at 5:29 PM, Francesco Biscani wrote: > Hi all, > > Christopher Barker wrote: >> "The only difference that my users see between an app written in >> Python >> and C++ is that the Python one has more features...and fewer bugs." >> > > I'm currently working mostly in C++ and exploring integration with > Python through Boost.Python+IPython+MPL. I enjoy working in Python, > but > I'm afraid of making a more consistent switch mainly for fear of > losing > the static type checking that C++ gives me. I have the horrifying > feeling that if I were to write much code in Python I could break it > in > so many ways just because of this, and I'd have the constant > perception > of not having my back covered by the compiler, at least for this > kind of > errors. > > It's true that probably I'd get the software up and running in less > time > with Python, but I think that I would spend much more time making sure > it behaves as expected and "fortifying" it, so to speak. Am I totally > offset here? > > Francesco. > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > ___ > Matplotlib-users mailing list > Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
On Sat, 01 Mar 2008, Francesco Biscani apparently wrote: > I'm currently working mostly in C++ and exploring > integration with Python through Boost.Python+IPython+MPL. > I enjoy working in Python, but I'm afraid of making a more > consistent switch mainly for fear of losing the static > type checking that C++ gives me. I have the horrifying > feeling that if I were to write much code in Python > I could break it in so many ways just because of this, and > I'd have the constant perception of not having my back > covered by the compiler, at least for this kind of errors. I suspect there is no answer to this fear except trying it. If you want to hear your fear ridiculed, you can post this query on comp.lang.python. If you want to hear your fear lauded for its sensibility, post it to comp.lang.c++. That said, note that Python supports properties (getters and setters) that can do runtime checking. Also Python 3 supports function annotations, which someone will certainly exploit to provide type checking. I guess you might find PEP 3119 (ABCs) relevant as well. Cheers, Alan Isaac - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
Hi all, Christopher Barker wrote: > "The only difference that my users see between an app written in Python > and C++ is that the Python one has more features...and fewer bugs." > I'm currently working mostly in C++ and exploring integration with Python through Boost.Python+IPython+MPL. I enjoy working in Python, but I'm afraid of making a more consistent switch mainly for fear of losing the static type checking that C++ gives me. I have the horrifying feeling that if I were to write much code in Python I could break it in so many ways just because of this, and I'd have the constant perception of not having my back covered by the compiler, at least for this kind of errors. It's true that probably I'd get the software up and running in less time with Python, but I think that I would spend much more time making sure it behaves as expected and "fortifying" it, so to speak. Am I totally offset here? Francesco. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
This is getting OT, but I'd kind of like to see it get archived somewhere... João Luís Silva wrote: > I'm trying to explore new options, and learn new skills. My favorite > programming languages are C/C++ and Python. I use Python for small > scripts and applications, and C/C++ for everything else. I've started a > smallish/medium size open source app in python+pygtk+matplotlib+numpy > (laserfoam.sf.net) but I think a large application might be more > maintainable in C++. I think this is not true AT ALL -- C++ is a big 'ol mess and far too complicated, and not very flexible, no matter how hard it tries. > Also, I think C++ is easier to "sell" to the powers > that be. That can be quite true, depending on who the powers that be are. However, I like a quote from the wxPython list: "The only difference that my users see between an app written in Python and C++ is that the Python one has more features...and fewer bugs." > I may write the GUI in > python+wxPython, and everything else in C++, I wouldn't write "everything else" in C++ -- I'd only write what you really need to write in C++ - which means only computational code that isn't fast enough with numpy, or device drivers or something like that. > but I was trying to drive the app from C++. That can be done, but most people do it the other way around, it's easier to drive C++ from python than python from C++. I did get a note on the numpy list from someone driving MPL from C++ for some simple test code, but I don't think it's a robust solution -- I've just forwarded that to you. > The need for python only remains due to its superior > plotting tools. the "need" maybe, but python has many, many, advantages that have nothing to do with plotting (or other libs, though the available libs are a big plus). Really, you'll be writing 1/5 to 1/10 as much code -- that's a BIG savings! Also, you get built-in scripting -- and I think virtually every app should be scriptable. > Also, I'm trying to keep things simple, so that they > just work, on both Linux and Windows. If you keep your extensions pretty standard C++, that's pretty easy, and python + wxPython is very portable. > I guess I have to think this over a bit more. Any further comments or > sugestions would be appreciated. Here's the key questions: 1) do you need C/C++ at all? maybe not! 2) If so, how much of the functionality of your app really needs to be written in C++? Multi-language development is kind of a pain -- SWIG, Pyrex, ctypes, Boost++, etc help a lot, but it's still a lot of work at the interface, so it only makes sense if you keep that interface small. If there isn't much C++, it's a no-brainer. 3) it seems most projects that do python+C++ development wish they'd done more in Python, not less: http://www.python.org/about/success/wingide/ Why do you think that virtually no one writes web apps in C++? -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
> > I'm trying to explore new options, and learn new skills. My favorite > programming languages are C/C++ and Python. I use Python for small > scripts and applications, and C/C++ for everything else. I've started a > smallish/medium size open source app in python+pygtk+matplotlib+numpy > (laserfoam.sf.net) but I think a large application might be more > maintainable in C++. Also, I think C++ is easier to "sell" to the powers > that be. I was C++ everywhere before, now I'm C++ only where it matters. Write your application with Python, there is not scale issue with Python (ILM use it, Google, ...), profile it and port what is needed to C or C++ and you will write an efficient and big application in "no" time. Matthieu -- French PhD student Website : http://matthieu-brucher.developpez.com/ Blogs : http://matt.eifelle.com and http://blog.developpez.com/?blog=92 LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/matthieubrucher - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
Christopher Barker wrote: > João Luis Silva wrote: >>So do you know any free open source library for plotting, that can be >> embedded in a GUI (such as wxWidgets or GTK), and usable from C/C++? > > If you're not committed to a particular GUI, check out QT -- I think > there are some plotting tools for QT out there: > I've heard good things about QT, and, while this program will be open source, I'm doing doing it to learn new technologies that can be applied to big scale commercial applications. I don't like the QT pricing for commercial applications, so it's not an option. > > VTK ios worth a look-see too -- it's big and complicated, but very powerful: > > http://www.vtk.org/ > I've used VTK once, from python. It's big and complicated, and the available documentation is scarce. In the end, it's not what I need. > >> Matplotlib may well be a killer application for me in the sense that it >> might be easier to just program the whole thing in Python. > > It's probably easier to program the whole thing in python anyway. It's > certainly easier to program wx in python, so what do you have left? your > computational code may be able to be written in numpy successfully, and > if not, write the core in C or C++, and access it from python with > ctypes, SWIG or pyrex, or... > I'm trying to explore new options, and learn new skills. My favorite programming languages are C/C++ and Python. I use Python for small scripts and applications, and C/C++ for everything else. I've started a smallish/medium size open source app in python+pygtk+matplotlib+numpy (laserfoam.sf.net) but I think a large application might be more maintainable in C++. Also, I think C++ is easier to "sell" to the powers that be. I'm still undecided. As you and John suggest, I may write the GUI in python+wxPython, and everything else in C++, but I was trying to drive the app from C++. The need for python only remains due to its superior plotting tools. Also, I'm trying to keep things simple, so that they just work, on both Linux and Windows. I guess I have to think this over a bit more. Any further comments or sugestions would be appreciated. Best Regards, João Silva - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
João Luis Silva wrote: >So do you know any free open source library for plotting, that can be > embedded in a GUI (such as wxWidgets or GTK), and usable from C/C++? If you're not committed to a particular GUI, check out QT -- I think there are some plotting tools for QT out there: http://qwt.sourceforge.net/ I sure wish there was something like that for wxWidgets! VTK ios worth a look-see too -- it's big and complicated, but very powerful: http://www.vtk.org/ it can be used with wx, qt, etc, etc... > Matplotlib may well be a killer application for me in the sense that it > might be easier to just program the whole thing in Python. It's probably easier to program the whole thing in python anyway. It's certainly easier to program wx in python, so what do you have left? your computational code may be able to be written in numpy successfully, and if not, write the core in C or C++, and access it from python with ctypes, SWIG or pyrex, or... -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
Re: [Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 9:40 AM, João Luis Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >So do you know any free open source library for plotting, that can be > embedded in a GUI (such as wxWidgets or GTK), and usable from C/C++? > Matplotlib may well be a killer application for me in the sense that it > might be easier to just program the whole thing in Python. Why not just do the parts you need in c++ and expose them to python, and then use matplotlib, mayavi2, tvtk, etc, and build your app in python. JDH - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
[Matplotlib-users] Plotting in C++
Hello all, I'm starting a new application, and I want to do it in C++. Previously, I've coded similar things in Python and pygtk, using matplotlib for the graphics. Now I want to create an application in C++ with a GUI that needs to display simple plots and hidden surface 3D plots and that runs on Linux and Windows. Part of the problem is that I've been spoiled by matplotlib's quality :-) I just can't get myself to use plplot, and AFAIK Gnuplot does not allow embedding the graphics in the GUI. I'm thinking of using wxWidgets because it has more widgets and features than GTK. Theoretically I could still use matplotlib by embedding python (see a recent thread "Help with c++ embedding"), but I would rather not do such things. So do you know any free open source library for plotting, that can be embedded in a GUI (such as wxWidgets or GTK), and usable from C/C++? Matplotlib may well be a killer application for me in the sense that it might be easier to just program the whole thing in Python. Regards, João Silva - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Matplotlib-users mailing list Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users
