[MBZ] Leaking R134 valve

[Levi Smith]

OK, so I went to add some R134 to my 83' 300d as I've done in the past.
Well, when I went to disconnect, the valve (low side) seems to be stuck
open.  I'm getting a lot of oil and a bit of air coming out.  I tried
reconnecting/disconnecting it but it seems to be stuck open.  I ended up
just putting the cap on the valve and apparently it's holding to a degree
since the AC was somewhat useful today.  So, my questions are, is that thing
a shrader valve?  Either way can it be easily be replaced or otherwise
likely fixed?

Also, should I be seeing a lot of oil, or is that a sign that there's too
much in there?

Thanks!
Levi

Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 10:34:58 -0700 Redghost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> > Even a differential gets a nice vent, your tranny has to have one.
> > I think it's probably the same little capped mushroom thing on top.
> > Perhaps yours is missing and there's a nasty little open hole leading
> > down into your precious bodily fluids?  The manual tranny in my 190D
> > has a vent on top, it had a plastic cap that was cracked that I put
> > Shoe Goo on.
>
> Looks like I will be crawling under her again with a mirror on a  
> stick so that I can get a full 360 view


Perhaps a picture will help.


Craig
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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[E M]

Had a quick look at their site, I like it.  They will probably get some of
my money in the not to distant future. :-)

Thanks for the link.

Ed
300E

On 27/05/07, Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


http://www.armstrongtools.com/about/usa.jsp
Add to that a lifetime warranty on their tools

--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine


Quoting E M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> If I had found any tools with Made in USA on them the last time I was in
> Sears, I would have put down my money for a whole set of 1/2 sockets and
> drivers.  I had no such luck.
>
> Ed
> 300E
>
> On 27/05/07, Rich Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Saw a Sears ad insert in today's paper, had some Craftsman bone
wrenches
>> for sale, that ad said "Made in the USA".  Surprised me.
>>
>> --R
>>
>> E M wrote:
>> > Try it the next time and see just how hard it now is
>> > finding quality US made stuff.
>> >
>>
>>


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Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 15:47:49 -0400 "LarryT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I assume you have confirmed there's no transmission oil cooler?

Not on a stick shift.



Craig

[MBZ] OT: Toyota Turbo Diesel

[Rory]

Hey Guys,

Just had an interesting experience at work (US Customs).  A Gentleman
brought a 1989 Toyota 4-runner Turbo Diesel to our Port of Entry to import
into the US.  Upon inspection, this right-hand drive vehicle is found to
have been manufactured in Canada in compliance with both US and Kalifornia
EPA standards, and US DOT standards, per mfg. labeling on vehicle.

Upon further discussion, I found out that these vehicles were manufactured
for Canadian Post in the Northern Territories.  The vehicle was showing
112,000 km's and was equipped with a 2.4 Turbodiesel and 5 speed manual
trans.  Said to obtain approx 30mpg (Canadian Gallons).

I have some experience with Toyota normally aspirated and turbo'd 2.4's and
found them to be great runners.

Wouldn't mind having something like that, although my 2XL frame and
attendant cushioning doesn't enjoy the Toyota PU's and 4-runners.

Regards,
--
Rory Morrison
Oroville, WA
1985 300SD

Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 14:19:58 -0400 "Mike Canfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> A small commuter car, the G-Wiz has been available in the UK for some 3 
> years now, and it is gainig popularity in London, mainly because it is 
> excempt the £8 daily congestion charge, and parking is free at many 
> locations in central London.
> 
> http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/
> 
> It has a maximum range of 48 miles at urban city speeds, and has a
> battery  pack of approximately 10kWh.


>From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA,

 The UK Department for Transport found "serious safety concerns" after
 crashing a G-Wiz at 35mph into a deformable barrier on April 24, 2007
 [6], which is the normal test for cars.

 Likewise, a test commissioned by Top Gear magazine that followed the
 Euro NCAP crash test specifications found that the occupants would
 suffer "serious or life-threatening" injuries in a 64km/h crash.[7].

 The G-wiz is presently exempt from most crash test rules, because its
 size allows it to be classed as a quadricycle instead of a car.



Craig

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 12:28:00 -0500 "Luther" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Split-beam technology is fairly new and mainly a combo of beam and
> clicker types.  See http://tinyurl.com/2l39p8 for more info. 

Or you could follow the links to toolsource and buy a dial torque wrench:

   http://www.toolsource.com/dial-torque-wrench-03000-ftlb-p-95385.html



Craig

Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 14:04:42 -0500 Rich Thomas
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Maybe roll cages and restraints are the answer, though m1v1=m2v2 still
> applies?

It's an inelastic collision, so what applies is,

12  1   2
   ---  m  v=  --- m  v
21  1   2   2  2


Craig

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Luther]

http://www.armstrongtools.com/about/usa.jsp
Add to that a lifetime warranty on their tools 


--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine


Quoting E M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


If I had found any tools with Made in USA on them the last time I was in
Sears, I would have put down my money for a whole set of 1/2 sockets and
drivers.  I had no such luck. 


Ed
300E

On 27/05/07, Rich Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Saw a Sears ad insert in today's paper, had some Craftsman bone wrenches
for sale, that ad said "Made in the USA".  Surprised me. 


--R

E M wrote:
> Try it the next time and see just how hard it now is
> finding quality US made stuff. 
>

Re: [MBZ] speaking of holier-than-thou..

[RELNGSON]

> < drive them seem to be 1) "holier than thou"-looking types (I know, that] is a 
> bad way to put it, but when you look at someone you can usually get a 
> half-decent read of their personality) with "progressive" stickers on the 
> bumpers,>>
> 
The owner of my unattended card-op fuel station (Laurelhurst Oil, if it 
matters) told me just this week that he sells twice as much bio-diesel as 
regular 
diesel. At a premium price, needless to say. BTW, Prius buyers probably used to 
drive Echos.

I'm grateful they are saving the planet so I don't have to.

RLE





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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[E M]

If I had found any tools with Made in USA on them the last time I was in
Sears, I would have put down my money for a whole set of 1/2 sockets and
drivers.  I had no such luck.

Ed
300E

On 27/05/07, Rich Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Saw a Sears ad insert in today's paper, had some Craftsman bone wrenches
for sale, that ad said "Made in the USA".  Surprised me.

--R

E M wrote:
> Try it the next time and see just how hard it now is
> finding quality US made stuff.
>


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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[E M]

I read a great article in an old British mag once.  The gov is always eager
to have us turn in out old cars and buy new more "fuel sipping" cars.  The
article factored in the energy used to dig up the raw materials, or recycle
the old materials, and the energy used to manufacture the new car.
Restoring an old car only took a small percentage of the energy of producing
a new car, and the energy saves would fuel the average car for 5-6 years or
something.  I wish I still had it and could give all the numbers.  It made a
strong case for running an older carproviding it is keep in good shape
and not an old beater.

Ed
300E

On 27/05/07, Kevin Kraly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


You want to help the environment, buy quality stuff that lasts, or is
rebuildable.

This is why most of us drive these old, solid cars.  As long as parts are
still available for these old diesels, that's what I'll do.

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula
PS.  There aren't too many cars out there of any vintage rolling around
with
over a quarter of a million miles on them.


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[MBZ] An opportunity, perhaps

[RELNGSON]

> < demonstrate cars at his house. He trades the saturn for a toyota.  He 
> was looking at the camry hybrid, but settled on the prius.  He was 
> strutting his stuff about what a great move he had made.  I did not 
> feel the need to knock him off his pedestal and let him know just 
> what a fake goodness he had done.  Saw him chatting up the other 
> neighbor with a new diesel VW about what a smooth move the hybrid 
> was.  Fool works for the evil empire, figure he is clueless, so why 
> waste good breath pointing out his failures>>
> 
Here's an idea. The house across the street from me has just come onto the 
market. Maybe you could move your operation up to the north end so as to point 
out all the bad decisions on my street. I'm sure we would all recommend your 
counsel.

RLE
> 
> 




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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[E M]

From my personal experiene, I have yet to buy anything with a Made in China

lable that was of any value.  there are three things I look for when
shopping.

#1 Made in America.  Probably a good product, but if only equal in quality
(which I have yet to see) but cost more, I'm still will to pay it to have a
guy make it here rather than there.

#2 Made in China.  Pretty much assured it's junk, but will buy it if I have
to destroy it or use it once, as I did with a wrench last week.  Hate to cut
a new SnapOn in half with a saw to use it on one bolt. :-)

# Imported by x for.  Probably made in China or somewhere with even
poorer quality but frightened to tell you where or you would freak at the
price they are asking for it, knowing their manufacturing cost is a penny on
the buck.

As for those "perfect" Japanese cars, the fact is this.  Build quality isn't
the best on American cars, but it is getting better.  However, I don't think
anyone has built a better or more reliable engine than a Chev 350.  I know
lots of 350s with over 750,000 kms on them, with just regular service.  It
lasts forever, lighter than a porshe 928 engine, and has a third the parts
of a lot of earlier Ferrari and other Euro engines, yet makes more power and
gets better mileage.

I know most products are built down to a price now.  I think that's our
fault for putting up with junk.  Companies are very happy to brand their
products and tack on a price, and there are enough willing to line up and
pay.  I have nothing against allowing Chinese products on the shelves, but I
think all products should have clear labels as to where they are
manufactured.

Ed
300E

On 27/05/07, John M McIntosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On May 27, 2007, at 10:59 AM, E M wrote:

> Same thing here, more and more stuff from China.  Sorry to say, but
> anything
> I've bought made in China is junk!

Ed, that's not quite true, the issue is: You as the buyer have no
ability to know if the item is good or not.

Frankly it's the product owners fault, they've outsourced the
manufacturing and don't do proper testing.
Once the bean counters take control and pick the lowest bid, the
engineering issues are  mute.

Likely much of the technology in those "perfect" Japanese cars is
made in China, and as statistical data has
shown it doesn't suffer from failures, likely those manufactures
weren't the lowest bidders.


John
1983 300TDt  386k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 191k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)



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Re: [MBZ] knock knock

[RELNGSON]

> < to the states by an individual. It has the 102.980 four cylinder engine with 
> Bosch CIS injection. On a stone cold start, it will knock about three times, 
> a 
> hollow metallic tap tap tap, before the oil pressure shoots up to 3 bar. I'm 
> quite sure it is not a main or rod bearing knock; if the engine had pushrods 
> and valve
> lifters, I'd say it was a lifter. After a cool down from a 200 mile road 
> trip, it will knock similarly, only more times.  I'm quite sure the knock is 
> not 
> something destructive, but do not know what it is.  It seems the oil gallery 
> must drains for want of   check valve somewhere, and the knock is associated 
> with only residual oiling somewhere.
> 
> Can anyone help with this?  Thank all of you.>>
> 
I think it is normal based on my experience. Every car I've owned has done 
this one time after an oil change when the oil pump has lost it's prime. Ah, 
but 
you say, this is NOT after an oil change, Well, my '01 C320's M112 V-6 has 
made this noise on nearly EVERY start, hot or cold, since it was new 53K miles 
back. It has never gotten louder than when I first heard it six years ago. I 
does not always make the sound, usually when I am trying to demonstrate it for 
my dealer or the local MBUSA rep.

My theory is that the output checkvalve on the oil pump sticks open, allowing 
drainback into the pan. When pressure comes up (no gauge on the V-6) the 
noise ceases.

BTW, it's a rod knock.

RLE
> 
> 




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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Robert & Tara Ludwick]

I've got a KD  clicker that I've been using for a few years now that I 
really like. I think it was around $130 new on sale( rumor was at the 
time that they came out of the same factory as snap ons torque wrenches ).
I have a craftsman electronic torque meter that attaches to a 1/2" 
socket, very accurate, but awkward  to use, basically only good when 
working an engine on the stand., and I have an HF cheapie 1/4 " drive 
job to keep all those little 6mm bolts about right.


I don't know about split beams, but on any clicker , keep in mind when 
using in temperature extremes, the readings won't be accurate. If it's 
real cold out, they will click late ( too tight, if it get's cold 
enough, tight enough to get you in trouble ) and if it's real hot out, 
they will click too early ( too loose). If I have to work outside in 
temperature extremes, I always leave the torque wrench inside for a 
while to get it to room temp, then work in short spurts to keep things 
even( this is after finding out that hard way what happens if you don't ).


-Robert


Luther wrote:

Which style?  Dial, micrometer click, or split-beam?  What brands?  Snap-On,
Armstrong, Precision Instruments, Craftsman, or others?

I'm going to be doing the head on my SDL and I'd like to have a high quality
1/2" 150-200 Newton-Meter torque wrench.   Suggestions, experience, and 2nd
hand knowledge welcome.  TIA all. 

  

Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[LarryT]

Howdy -
   If it's missing completely,  the location of the vent will be hard to 
spot.  Often a vent will consist of a small ~3/8"x1/2" round plug with a 
small opening on one or more sides leading to an internal opening in the 
middle.  If it's been missing for a while it may be plugged with oily gunk 
or leaves and other debris.  If that's the source of your moisture it's 
likely it's porous like leaves etc.


   If it's still there, there may be a buildup of debris around it so it 
looks more like a bump than a vent.


   I assume you have confirmed there's no transmission oil cooler?  Some 
MBs have transmission oil coolers as part of the radiator - usually 
horizontally along the bottom of the radiator.  If there's a leak between 
the 2 coolers stuff from one gets in the other.  But you would see some 
obvious fluid lines from the tranny to the radiator.


   But a milky appearance indicates water is present.  If you really want 
to know 100% you can have the fluid analyzed.


Take care  -
Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Redghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF



Where is the vent?  I think I need a fiber optic scope to  see around
the corners and such.  I did not see a vent on Gump while looking at
the trans from under or above.  May not have known where to look
though I researched in the manual prior to start of working on the
change.

clay


On May 26, 2007, at 10:37 PM, Jim Cathey wrote:


ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans
fluid in this application?


Water.  Don't know how, but water.  How's the vent?

-- Jim


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12:31 PM

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Kevin Kraly]

You want to help the environment, buy quality stuff that lasts, or is 
rebuildable.


This is why most of us drive these old, solid cars.  As long as parts are 
still available for these old diesels, that's what I'll do.


Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula
PS.  There aren't too many cars out there of any vintage rolling around with 
over a quarter of a million miles on them. 

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Rich Thomas]

Saw a Sears ad insert in today's paper, had some Craftsman bone wrenches 
for sale, that ad said "Made in the USA".  Surprised me.


--R

E M wrote:

Try it the next time and see just how hard it now is
finding quality US made stuff.
  

Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Rich Thomas]

Charge cars at night with base load nuke power (put them closer to where 
the power is needed, NIMBY be damned) then supplement with 
(energy-efficient) biofuels, makes sense to me.  My issue with little 
electrics and commuter cars to use for putting around town is the 
cell-phone yappers in bigass vehicles, for whom stop signs are not even 
within their perceptions (like the two I almost t-boned yesterday, 
within 6 blocks of the house).  Maybe roll cages and restraints are the 
answer, though m1v1=m2v2 still applies?


--R

Peter Frederick wrote:
There is no environmental gain from using chargeable hybrids -- you 
just replace using gasoline or diesel for the much higher carbon output 
coal fired power plant (with huge transmission loses, as they never 
build the plants were the power is used, they stick us poor 
midwesterners with them).


The real solution is not to drive as much, and I've gotten into the 
habit of staying home on weekends.


Peter


___
  

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[John M McIntosh]

On May 27, 2007, at 10:59 AM, E M wrote:

Same thing here, more and more stuff from China.  Sorry to say, but  
anything

I've bought made in China is junk!


Ed, that's not quite true, the issue is: You as the buyer have no  
ability to know if the item is good or not.


Frankly it's the product owners fault, they've outsourced the  
manufacturing and don't do proper testing.
Once the bean counters take control and pick the lowest bid, the  
engineering issues are  mute.


Likely much of the technology in those "perfect" Japanese cars is  
made in China, and as statistical data has
shown it doesn't suffer from failures, likely those manufactures  
weren't the lowest bidders.



John
1983 300TDt  386k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1990's 300TDt  194k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)
1993 500SEL 191k Kilometers (mobil 1 Delvac)

Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Mike Canfield]

Read this:  (CHP = Combined heat and power)  This is from another board I am 
on..Very interesting proposal.
"Here's a possible proposal to keep the costs of suburban motoring down, 
whilst making use of renewable fuels and the energy efficiency available 
from a CHP system.


The illustration is intended for suburban UK, but the model could be 
adjusted to apply to any suburban city.


It basically combines your energy requirements for electricity, heating and 
suburban transport such that all three can be met using a single system that 
burns renewable fuel. It effectively offsets the heat energy wasted by an IC 
engine as a means of providing home heating, and uses an electric vehicle as 
a means of load balancing an otherwise poorly balanced CHP system.


A small commuter car, the G-Wiz has been available in the UK for some 3 
years now, and it is gainig popularity in London, mainly because it is 
excempt the £8 daily congestion charge, and parking is free at many 
locations in central London.


http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/

It has a maximum range of 48 miles at urban city speeds, and has a battery 
pack of approximately 10kWh.


Whilst a small diesel engine genset can provide sufficient power for a 
typical household, the heat recovered is generally insufficient to meet the 
winter needs of the house.


By incorporating the charging of a small commuter type electric vehicle, 
with a battery capacity of close to 10kWh, the total daily electrical load 
would be effectively doubled, thus doubling the available heat output.


The battery of the EV would act as a load balancer for the CHP system at 
times of low domestic power demand.


Assume that 10kWh is needed for the household per day and 10kWh is needed to 
recharge the EV.


20kWh of electicity will require 10 litres of fuel per day at a cost of 
£0.30 per litre. Fuel cost £3.00


20kWh of electricity at £0.10 kWh is worth £2.00

Recoverable heat from 10 litres of fuel = 50kWh heat worth £1.50

Mileage available form EV, up to 48 miles per day, off-setting diesel fuel 
costs of about £0.10 per mile.


In principle, for someone commuting 20 miles each way, this technique could 
reduce heat power and transportation costs to about £3 per day.


Additional top-up heat could be supplied by burning the fuel directly if 
needed.


Any thoughts?

Ken"



Mike


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage



There is no environmental gain from using chargeable hybrids -- you
just replace using gasoline or diesel for the much higher carbon output
coal fired power plant (with huge transmission loses, as they never
build the plants were the power is used, they stick us poor
midwesterners with them).

The real solution is not to drive as much, and I've gotten into the
habit of staying home on weekends.

Peter


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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[E M]

Same thing here, more and more stuff from China.  Sorry to say, but anything
I've bought made in China is junk!  I go into stores and ask for made in
Canada, US, or Europe.  Try it the next time and see just how hard it now is
finding quality US made stuff.  I got fed up here with my local Canadian
Tire store, so went to Sears as I heard they had pretty good tools.  You got
it, everything I layed hands on was made in china.  Huskey at HomeDept, same
thing.  I picked up a wrench the other day, Made in USA and paid twice what
the others cost.  No life time warranty, but I was happy to pay the money
and the Made in USA stamp makes me confident I won't need a warranty. :-)  I
now pretty much buy used stuff, cars, guitars and amps and furniture, and
pay to have it restored.  I think we have to get away from this buy it and
throw it out if (when) it breaks and we'll give you another one, thinking.
You want to help the enviorment, buy quality stuff that lasts, or is
rebuildable.

ah, that feels better. :-)  That's my little rant for this weekend. :-)

Ed
300E

On 27/05/07, LarryT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Mitch wrote:< fit/finish than the ones I bought 10-20 years ago>>

Howdy -
IMHO, 10-20 years ago, there was less Chinese manufacturing coming to
the US than now - sad to say but the massacre in Tinenamen Square happened
almost 20 years ago (1989) and while I hoped the world would condemn the
Chinese govt actions nothing seems to have happened.  All those people who
built models of the Statue of Liberty were shot by soldiers and run over
by
tanks while the celebrated a chance at democracy were killed to shut them
up -

Back to buying stuff - Unfortunately, the bulk of US buyers look at price
more than anything else - especially if the appearence is similar.

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message -
From: "Mitch Haley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping


>
>
> Mike Canfield wrote:
>>
>> 90 days?  Is that because it is EXTREMELY precise or cheap in quality?
>>
>> If you want one to last your lifetime using it every day and have a
fancy
>> name go buy a Snap On.
>
> Really? I knew a guy who worked in a factory tool crib, calibrating
> torque wrenches was one of his duties. He reported (circa 1998) that
> 10-20% of the Snap-Ons were throwaways that he could not get to read
> within 4% across the scale when they were new in box, and the good ones
> did not hold up like Proto. I wish I'd bought more Harbor Freight torque
> wrenches back then. At the time, he claimed he could tune the average HF
> wrench to 1-2% across the range, but didn't think they would hold up in
> a full time factory situation.
>
> Lately, I've seen too many HF products that seem to be way lower in
> fit/finish than the ones I bought 10-20 years ago (same part number),
> so now I wonder about their torque wrenches too. My oldest Harbor
Freight
> dial caliper checks out to within 1/10,000th across the scale, wish I
> could say that about a brand new one. (but the newer ones I've played
> with are still well within 1/1000th everywhere, not bad for $10-15)
>
> Mitch.
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>
>
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> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.0/820 - Release Date: 5/27/2007
> 12:31 PM
>


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Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Peter Frederick]

There is no environmental gain from using chargeable hybrids -- you 
just replace using gasoline or diesel for the much higher carbon output 
coal fired power plant (with huge transmission loses, as they never 
build the plants were the power is used, they stick us poor 
midwesterners with them).


The real solution is not to drive as much, and I've gotten into the 
habit of staying home on weekends.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Redghost]

Not sure what his little mind was up to.  He spewed out three kids in  
18 months, had no room in the one car, so had to get his wife a  
minivan, he sees two other prius on the block, three hybrid honda, so  
maybe he joins the crowd?  I have seen an increase the number of  
three point star cars in the neighborhood.  At least one on each  
block within a seven block radius.  Not many diesels, but that may  
change.


clay

On May 27, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Rich Thomas wrote:


Maybe the Prius has some good points, but I notice that the people who
drive them seem to be 1) "holier than thou"-looking types (I know,  
that
is a bad way to put it, but when you look at someone you can  
usually get
a half-decent read of their personality) with "progressive"  
stickers on
the bumpers, or 2) rather clueless consumers who heard that it is a  
good

thing and go pay for it not really analyzing the whole deal, or 3)
status-seekers among their crowd.  Your MSFT guy probably fits in at
least 2 of these groups if not all 3.  Most of my community probably
fits that profile as well. There is probably a very small  
percentage who

really understand all the factors, and make the decision.  But I also
see a lot of VW TDIs around, and new diesel Benzes for those in that
price range.  A lot of old diesel Benzes driven by people like this  
group!


I think there is a lot of marketing going on these days about fuel
mileage and global climate change and such, that is not reality- 
based in

many respects.  Who knows what the answer is ( a combination of
behaviors and equipment I would think), but somehow I just don't  
get the

feeling that the Prius is the whole answer.  And I wonder too why they
don't make these kinds of cars plug-in hybrids right out of the box to
gain even more efficiencies.

--R

Redghost wrote:

Microscum slave next door just had the sales folks over yesterday to
demonstrate cars at his house. He trades the saturn for a toyota.  He
was looking at the camry hybrid, but settled on the prius.  He was
strutting his stuff about what a great move he had made.  I did not
feel the need to knock him off his pedestal and let him know just
what a fake goodness he had done.  Saw him chatting up the other
neighbor with a new diesel VW about what a smooth move the hybrid
was.  Fool works for the evil empire, figure he is clueless, so why
waste good breath pointing out his failures

clay

On May 26, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Kevin Kraly wrote:



It's all in the marketing.  People are told that their hybrid is
helping the
environment, and that's a good thing to help pollution and be more
"green,"
lots of hipe.  I'll just stick with my Diesels.

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR

Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Redghost]

Looks like I will be crawling under her again with a mirror on a  
stick so that I can get a full 360 view


clay

On May 27, 2007, at 8:41 AM, Jim Cathey wrote:


equalize pressure.  Gump, with manual has a closed system to the best
of my knowledge and visuals exam.  Both her drain and fill holes were
sealed well prior to my attempts to open earlier today.


Even a differential gets a nice vent, your tranny has to have one.
I think it's probably the same little capped mushroom thing on top.
Perhaps yours is missing and there's a nasty little open hole leading
down into your precious bodily fluids?  The manual tranny in my 190D
has a vent on top, it had a plastic cap that was cracked that I put
Shoe Goo on.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Luther]

Split-beam technology is fairly new and mainly a combo of beam and clicker
types.  See http://tinyurl.com/2l39p8 for more info. 
I'm getting the idea that my $10 1/2"  HF torque wrench that could be 
off by as

much as 10% would be ok?  Even if I torque it to 30 or 40 Foot/Lbs (instead of
exactly 35) it's ok, as long as it is the same value at each bolt.  Is 
that the

general idea?  I have taken care of this wrench properly, leaving it in it's
cheap plastic case and setting the torque back to zero each time, yada, yada,
yada... 


--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine


Quoting Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Which style?  Dial, micrometer click, or split-beam?  What brands?  Snap-On,
Armstrong, Precision Instruments, Craftsman, or others?

I'm going to be doing the head on my SDL and I'd like to have a high quality
1/2" 150-200 Newton-Meter torque wrench.   Suggestions, experience, and 2nd
hand knowledge welcome.  TIA all. 


--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine




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Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Redghost]

Where is the vent?  I think I need a fiber optic scope to  see around  
the corners and such.  I did not see a vent on Gump while looking at  
the trans from under or above.  May not have known where to look  
though I researched in the manual prior to start of working on the  
change.


clay


On May 26, 2007, at 10:37 PM, Jim Cathey wrote:


ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans
fluid in this application?


Water.  Don't know how, but water.  How's the vent?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Rich Thomas]

Maybe the Prius has some good points, but I notice that the people who 
drive them seem to be 1) "holier than thou"-looking types (I know, that 
is a bad way to put it, but when you look at someone you can usually get 
a half-decent read of their personality) with "progressive" stickers on 
the bumpers, or 2) rather clueless consumers who heard that it is a good 
thing and go pay for it not really analyzing the whole deal, or 3) 
status-seekers among their crowd.  Your MSFT guy probably fits in at 
least 2 of these groups if not all 3.  Most of my community probably 
fits that profile as well. There is probably a very small percentage who 
really understand all the factors, and make the decision.  But I also 
see a lot of VW TDIs around, and new diesel Benzes for those in that 
price range.  A lot of old diesel Benzes driven by people like this group!


I think there is a lot of marketing going on these days about fuel 
mileage and global climate change and such, that is not reality-based in 
many respects.  Who knows what the answer is ( a combination of 
behaviors and equipment I would think), but somehow I just don't get the 
feeling that the Prius is the whole answer.  And I wonder too why they 
don't make these kinds of cars plug-in hybrids right out of the box to 
gain even more efficiencies.


--R

Redghost wrote:
Microscum slave next door just had the sales folks over yesterday to  
demonstrate cars at his house. He trades the saturn for a toyota.  He  
was looking at the camry hybrid, but settled on the prius.  He was  
strutting his stuff about what a great move he had made.  I did not  
feel the need to knock him off his pedestal and let him know just  
what a fake goodness he had done.  Saw him chatting up the other  
neighbor with a new diesel VW about what a smooth move the hybrid  
was.  Fool works for the evil empire, figure he is clueless, so why  
waste good breath pointing out his failures


clay

On May 26, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Kevin Kraly wrote:

  
It's all in the marketing.  People are told that their hybrid is  
helping the
environment, and that's a good thing to help pollution and be more  
"green,"

lots of hipe.  I'll just stick with my Diesels.

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula


  

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Mike Canfield]

Interesting to hear.  I wonder who actually makes the one Sears sells as a 
Craftsman


Mike
- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping





Mike Canfield wrote:


90 days?  Is that because it is EXTREMELY precise or cheap in quality?

If you want one to last your lifetime using it every day and have a fancy
name go buy a Snap On.


Really? I knew a guy who worked in a factory tool crib, calibrating
torque wrenches was one of his duties. He reported (circa 1998) that
10-20% of the Snap-Ons were throwaways that he could not get to read
within 4% across the scale when they were new in box, and the good ones
did not hold up like Proto. I wish I'd bought more Harbor Freight torque
wrenches back then. At the time, he claimed he could tune the average HF
wrench to 1-2% across the range, but didn't think they would hold up in
a full time factory situation.

Lately, I've seen too many HF products that seem to be way lower in
fit/finish than the ones I bought 10-20 years ago (same part number),
so now I wonder about their torque wrenches too. My oldest Harbor Freight
dial caliper checks out to within 1/10,000th across the scale, wish I
could say that about a brand new one. (but the newer ones I've played
with are still well within 1/1000th everywhere, not bad for $10-15)

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?

[LarryT]

The serpentine belt pully and tensioner often goes bad and can make similar 
sounds - it must be looked at carefully when the belt is replaced.  I ended 
up replacing all the belt components when I replaced the belt.


Also, the bolt holding the tensioner can be damaged if not attended to soon 
enough - which can damage the head/block where it is fastened to -


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?



Sadly, that means probably a main or rod bearing if it's not the chain
tensioner

Do check the fan clutch and serpentine belt, though -- a bad belt can
cause a knock.  Sounds just like a rod sometimes, but usually doesn't
go away when the oil pressure comes up though.

Peter


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12:31 PM

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[LarryT]

Mitch wrote:<
fit/finish than the ones I bought 10-20 years ago>>


Howdy -
   IMHO, 10-20 years ago, there was less Chinese manufacturing coming to 
the US than now - sad to say but the massacre in Tinenamen Square happened 
almost 20 years ago (1989) and while I hoped the world would condemn the 
Chinese govt actions nothing seems to have happened.  All those people who 
built models of the Statue of Liberty were shot by soldiers and run over by 
tanks while the celebrated a chance at democracy were killed to shut them 
up -


Back to buying stuff - Unfortunately, the bulk of US buyers look at price 
more than anything else - especially if the appearence is similar.


Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping





Mike Canfield wrote:


90 days?  Is that because it is EXTREMELY precise or cheap in quality?

If you want one to last your lifetime using it every day and have a fancy
name go buy a Snap On.


Really? I knew a guy who worked in a factory tool crib, calibrating
torque wrenches was one of his duties. He reported (circa 1998) that
10-20% of the Snap-Ons were throwaways that he could not get to read
within 4% across the scale when they were new in box, and the good ones
did not hold up like Proto. I wish I'd bought more Harbor Freight torque
wrenches back then. At the time, he claimed he could tune the average HF
wrench to 1-2% across the range, but didn't think they would hold up in
a full time factory situation.

Lately, I've seen too many HF products that seem to be way lower in
fit/finish than the ones I bought 10-20 years ago (same part number),
so now I wonder about their torque wrenches too. My oldest Harbor Freight
dial caliper checks out to within 1/10,000th across the scale, wish I
could say that about a brand new one. (but the newer ones I've played
with are still well within 1/1000th everywhere, not bad for $10-15)

Mitch.

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12:31 PM

Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?

[Peter Frederick]

Sadly, that means probably a main or rod bearing if it's not the chain 
tensioner


Do check the fan clutch and serpentine belt, though -- a bad belt can 
cause a knock.  Sounds just like a rod sometimes, but usually doesn't 
go away when the oil pressure comes up though.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Peter Frederick]

The 603 uses stretch bolts.  Buy new ones -- there are 17 of the, three 
different lengths.  I believe the instructions with the head gasket I 
just did say torque to 15 ft/lbs, to 35 ft/lbs, then 90 degree turn, 
wait ten minutes, another 90 degrees.  No torque figures for the 90 
degree turns, as it will vary and actually doesn't go up much.


Peter

Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Jim Cathey]

equalize pressure.  Gump, with manual has a closed system to the best
of my knowledge and visuals exam.  Both her drain and fill holes were
sealed well prior to my attempts to open earlier today.


Even a differential gets a nice vent, your tranny has to have one.
I think it's probably the same little capped mushroom thing on top.
Perhaps yours is missing and there's a nasty little open hole leading
down into your precious bodily fluids?  The manual tranny in my 190D
has a vent on top, it had a plastic cap that was cracked that I put
Shoe Goo on.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D

[Jim Cathey]

Keep in mind that if there is anything up under that 4 way switch that 
won't
allow it turn ALL the way off it won't let the turn signals work.  I 
don't

know if it cuts power to them or what.


Yes.  Most of these cars have only one flasher, and it's
switched between the column switch selector or to all at
once by the hazard switch.  And there are plenty of systems
where the hazard switch _is_ the flasher.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Mitch Haley]

Mike Canfield wrote:
> 
> 90 days?  Is that because it is EXTREMELY precise or cheap in quality?
> 
> If you want one to last your lifetime using it every day and have a fancy
> name go buy a Snap On. 

Really? I knew a guy who worked in a factory tool crib, calibrating
torque wrenches was one of his duties. He reported (circa 1998) that
10-20% of the Snap-Ons were throwaways that he could not get to read
within 4% across the scale when they were new in box, and the good ones
did not hold up like Proto. I wish I'd bought more Harbor Freight torque
wrenches back then. At the time, he claimed he could tune the average HF
wrench to 1-2% across the range, but didn't think they would hold up in
a full time factory situation. 

Lately, I've seen too many HF products that seem to be way lower in
fit/finish than the ones I bought 10-20 years ago (same part number),
so now I wonder about their torque wrenches too. My oldest Harbor Freight
dial caliper checks out to within 1/10,000th across the scale, wish I
could say that about a brand new one. (but the newer ones I've played
with are still well within 1/1000th everywhere, not bad for $10-15)

Mitch.

Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Mike Canfield]

THere has to be a vant somewhere ot the tranny would blow oil out of the 
seals as the fluid gets hot an expands.  If it is plugged there is no way 
for the heat to expell the normally occuring moisture from condensation. 
Your relatively short trips may not get the fluid hot enough for either to 
happen.


Mike
- Original Message - 
From: "Redghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF



an auto trans has a bleed hole out the top to expel excess fluid or
equalize pressure.  Gump, with manual has a closed system to the best
of my knowledge and visuals exam.  Both her drain and fill holes were
sealed well prior to my attempts to open earlier today.

clay

On May 26, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Rich Thomas wrote:


I think the list mom had some sort of similar experience a few months
back and attributed it to rainwater getting in the tranny via some
vent
or loose fitting or something like that.

--R

Redghost wrote:

I am sort of scratching my head here.  I just changed the ATF in
Gump, a 220D manual.  What came out was nasty, milky rusted looking
Mobil 1 ATF.  She had less than 30k on the fluid, I just was feeling
something was not right, so I change  it.  There is no obvious
coolant hoses going into the transmission, and I do not think there
is any transmission parts going near the radiator.  Checked the oil
and coolant and no water in one or oil in the other.

ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans
fluid in this application?






--
Clay
Seattle Bioburner

1972 220D - Gump
1995 E300D - Cleo
1987 300SDL - POS - DOA
The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz


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Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D

[Mike Canfield]

I like the plastic bagKeeps the Jesus springs from doing their thing 
ay?


Mike
- Original Message - 
From: "Redghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:53 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D



Hazard switch usually is the cause of failure here.  They can be
cleaned up, but you really have to take them apart in a plastic bag
and take great care not to break them.  Clean the contacts and you
should be good as new

clay

On May 26, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Mike Canfield wrote:


I'd look at the contacts in the 4 way flasher switch in the center
console.

My 83 TD is touchy and my 240D was even worse.

Mike
- Original Message -
From: "Harry Watkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:43 PM
Subject: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D



I examined all the fuses and replaced the ones listed for these
items but
it
didn't help.

Any ideas??

Thanks
Harry
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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Mike Canfield]

90 days?  Is that because it is EXTREMELY precise or cheap in quality?

If you want one to last your lifetime using it every day and have a fancy 
name go buy a Snap On.  If you want one that will do the same job 
occasionally for a ton less buy a Craftsman click type.  They are plenty 
accurate for anything automotive I have ever seen.


Mike
- Original Message - 
From: "Luther" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping



You're saying that nothing special is needed to torque a head down?
Just a 1/2"
Craftsman will do?  I really liked the Armstrong's...they're a full 
lifetime

warranty with 90 days on the calibration.

--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine


Quoting Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


My brother has used his Snap-on click type for several decades.  Quite
reliable, easy to use, and rather pricey.

You only need a cheapie for the SDL, though -- even torque to 35
ft/lbs, then tighten a quarter turn twice.

Peter





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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Allan Streib]

"Luther" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Which style?  Dial, micrometer click, or split-beam?  What brands?  Snap-On,
> Armstrong, Precision Instruments, Craftsman, or others?
>
> I'm going to be doing the head on my SDL and I'd like to have a high quality
> 1/2" 150-200 Newton-Meter torque wrench.   Suggestions, experience, and 2nd
> hand knowledge welcome.  TIA all. 

Torque wrenches will be less accurate at the extremes of their
ranges.  So ideally you will buy a wrench where your desired torque is
somewhere in the middle 60% or so of the range.

Allan

-- 
1983 300D
1966 230

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[LarryT]

Howdy --
   I have 1 click 1/2" & 1/4" bar that reads in #s In.'s and my biggest 
trouble has been being in position to read the scale - I usually need find 
myself upside down under a car trying to torque something and am unable to 
read the scale - which is why I bought the clicker.


   Which ever you ultimately choose,  it is *extremely* important you care 
for it properly.  For a bar style that means handling it carefully to 
prevent bending the bar and the click type should have the setting loosened 
and turned to zero or less when it is not being used so there is no tension 
on any of the components.


YMMV -

Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D)
www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
PORSCHE POSTERS!  youroil.net
Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs
Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/
.
- Original Message - 
From: "OK Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping



I've read that the split beam is more accurate over the long term, and
it seems likely to me. Both the split beam and the dial types require
someone to be able to see the indicator directly to read it while
applying torque.This has been an issue for me in some instances in the
past. There is no such issue with the click types. I'm subscribing the
"consistent torque is better than absolute accuracy" theory, and have
three Craftsman click types, covering different ranges and sizes. I
ought to get the two older ones calibrated, but haven't. I did check
one against a split beam last year, and as best as we could tell, it
was still accurate.

Do check the manual for the head bolt tightening requirements - if
they are of the stretch bolt "turn 90 degrees, then another 90
degrees", a fancy torque wrench won't be of much use. The head bolts
on my cast iron 117 were of the usual torque in two steps, then loosen
a little and re-torque after reaching operating temperature variety -
not all MB engines are the same!

On 5/26/07, Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

You're saying that nothing special is needed to torque a head down?
Just a 1/2"
Craftsman will do?  I really liked the Armstrong's...they're a full 
lifetime

warranty with 90 days on the calibration.



--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise
of fighting a foreign enemy."
-James Madison
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

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10:47 AM

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Rick Knoble]

Which style?  Dial, micrometer click, or split-beam?  What brands? 
Snap-On,

Armstrong, Precision Instruments, Craftsman, or others?


Proto click torque wrenches have a good reputation. That is what I have. 
Harbor Freight tw are a cheap alternative, They appear to be Proto knock 
offs and are very inexpensive.
Rick Knoble 

Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D

[Mike Canfield]

Yeah, that's what I meant.Always worked for me.

Keep in mind that if there is anything up under that 4 way switch that won't 
allow it turn ALL the way off it won't let the turn signals work.  I don't 
know if it cuts power to them or what.


Mike
- Original Message - 
From: "Craig McCluskey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D



On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:48:53 -0400 "Mike Canfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


I'd look at the contacts in the 4 way flasher switch in the center
console.


You can try the simple approach: just actuate the switch about a million
times, making sure to move it to the off position solidly.


Craig

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[MBZ] Mercedes Discussion List

[Walt Lasher]

Funny they have the Maybeck but not much elseWhere are the files
for the W-140?
-- next part --
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Re: [MBZ] http://www.mercedestechstore.com/

[Hendrik Riessen]

Guess if you own a dinosaur you're out of luck.

- Original Message - 
From: "John M McIntosh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 5:02 PM
Subject: [MBZ] http://www.mercedestechstore.com/


Seems mercedes has a new website for technical documentation, http:// 
www.mercedestechstore.com/


Also seems some of the training material is readable PDFs for the  
curious


http://www.mercedestechstore.com/pdfs/index.htm


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Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?

[Hendrik Riessen]

Yes but that won't stop the "I'm a worn engine hear me rattle without oil" 
song, yeah he could be describing the loose chain rattle sound but I can't 
tell without hearing it myself. He is best off to find someone with mucho 
Mercedes experience, to have a listen to the sound.
I don't think I have heard of the chain tensioner giving much trouble in 
these motors apart from usual wear.


- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Cathey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mercedes Discussion List" 


Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?



Valve lifters or tappets and/or the timing chain rattling have been
proposed as the cause of my knock on startup.


I'd look long and hard at the timing chain tensioner.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Oil Pressure Sender

[Hendrik Riessen]

And you have had since this car since.
Not sure about yours but if they are like the gas cousins then it should be 
on the oil filter housing.


- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Knoble" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Oil Pressure Sender



Listers,
My oil pressure gauge has never worked on my 190 DT. Where is the sender 
on this engine? I know that it is a grounding resistor that is open at 
full pressure and grounded at zero pressure. However, I can't troubleshoot 
it if I don't know where it is.

Thanks,
Rick Knoble
'85 300 CD
'87 190 DT

Re: [MBZ] http://www.mercedestechstore.com/

[Tony Wirtel]

Seems mercedes has a new website for technical documentation, http://
www.mercedestechstore.com/

Also seems some of the training material is readable PDFs for the
curious

http://www.mercedestechstore.com/pdfs/index.htm


John:

I like the ML crossword puzzle...

http://www.mercedestechstore.com/pdfs/ml%20files/handouts/316%20HO%20M-Class%20Crossword%20puzzle%20WJB%2010-01-01.pdf

Tony Wirtel

[MBZ] http://www.mercedestechstore.com/

[John M McIntosh]

Seems mercedes has a new website for technical documentation, http:// 
www.mercedestechstore.com/


Also seems some of the training material is readable PDFs for the  
curious


http://www.mercedestechstore.com/pdfs/index.htm

Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Redghost]

Microscum slave next door just had the sales folks over yesterday to  
demonstrate cars at his house. He trades the saturn for a toyota.  He  
was looking at the camry hybrid, but settled on the prius.  He was  
strutting his stuff about what a great move he had made.  I did not  
feel the need to knock him off his pedestal and let him know just  
what a fake goodness he had done.  Saw him chatting up the other  
neighbor with a new diesel VW about what a smooth move the hybrid  
was.  Fool works for the evil empire, figure he is clueless, so why  
waste good breath pointing out his failures


clay

On May 26, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Kevin Kraly wrote:

It's all in the marketing.  People are told that their hybrid is  
helping the
environment, and that's a good thing to help pollution and be more  
"green,"

lots of hipe.  I'll just stick with my Diesels.

Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula


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Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Redghost]

an auto trans has a bleed hole out the top to expel excess fluid or  
equalize pressure.  Gump, with manual has a closed system to the best  
of my knowledge and visuals exam.  Both her drain and fill holes were  
sealed well prior to my attempts to open earlier today.


clay

On May 26, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Rich Thomas wrote:


I think the list mom had some sort of similar experience a few months
back and attributed it to rainwater getting in the tranny via some  
vent

or loose fitting or something like that.

--R

Redghost wrote:

I am sort of scratching my head here.  I just changed the ATF in
Gump, a 220D manual.  What came out was nasty, milky rusted looking
Mobil 1 ATF.  She had less than 30k on the fluid, I just was feeling
something was not right, so I change  it.  There is no obvious
coolant hoses going into the transmission, and I do not think there
is any transmission parts going near the radiator.  Checked the oil
and coolant and no water in one or oil in the other.

ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans
fluid in this application?






--
Clay
Seattle Bioburner

1972 220D - Gump
1995 E300D - Cleo
1987 300SDL - POS - DOA
The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz


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Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D

[Redghost]

Hazard switch usually is the cause of failure here.  They can be  
cleaned up, but you really have to take them apart in a plastic bag  
and take great care not to break them.  Clean the contacts and you  
should be good as new


clay

On May 26, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Mike Canfield wrote:

I'd look at the contacts in the 4 way flasher switch in the center  
console.


My 83 TD is touchy and my 240D was even worse.

Mike
- Original Message -
From: "Harry Watkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:43 PM
Subject: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D


I examined all the fuses and replaced the ones listed for these  
items but

it
didn't help.

Any ideas??

Thanks
Harry
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Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Redghost]

I may have something sort of close. The only lines that go to the the  
transmission are the clutch and external armature to change gear.   
They both look solid and without obvious water entry points.   I did  
not use a goose neck mirror to peer around corners and the topside of  
the transmission to see if there may be a leak by the clutch plates.


clay

On May 26, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Mike Canfield wrote:

Sounds like what my Army truck does...It has a leak in the dash  
that

lets rainwater into the boot around the shifter if it's parked just
right...Could you have something similar going on?

Mike
- Original Message -
From: "Redghost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: [MBZ] Milky ATF



I am sort of scratching my head here.  I just changed the ATF in
Gump, a 220D manual.  What came out was nasty, milky rusted looking
Mobil 1 ATF.  She had less than 30k on the fluid, I just was feeling
something was not right, so I change  it.  There is no obvious
coolant hoses going into the transmission, and I do not think there
is any transmission parts going near the radiator.  Checked the oil
and coolant and no water in one or oil in the other.

ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans
fluid in this application?






--
Clay
Seattle Bioburner

1972 220D - Gump
1995 E300D - Cleo
1987 300SDL - POS - DOA
The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz


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Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Redghost]

Gump lives on the street, flat road and is usually driven daily for  
five to  ten miles one way minimum.  She can sit weekends or while  
awaiting a part.  Not sure where a vent is found on a manual  
transmission.  There was a coolant leak that may have dripped into it  
a week ago.


clay

On May 26, 2007, at 4:44 PM, Ralph Morton wrote:


I am sort of scratching my head here.  I just
changed the ATF in
Gump, a 220D manual.  What came out was nasty, milky
rusted looking
Mobil 1 ATF.  She had less than 30k on the fluid, I
just was feeling
something was not right, so I change  it.  There is
no obvious
coolant hoses going into the transmission, and I do
not think there
is any transmission parts going near the radiator.
Checked the oil
and coolant and no water in one or oil in the other.

ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning
of milky trans
fluid in this application?



Moisture of some sort, probably from condensation.

A couple of things to check:

1.) Where do you park the car?  (on a concrete pad,
onn the ground, etc.)

2.) How often do you drive the car?


Driving it regularly gets the temperature up in the
gearbox and drives out moisture.  If the car sits for
long periods of time moisture will collect unless it's
kept in a climate controlled garage, and the
whitish-looking goop will appear in the oil.

You might also check to see if the vent is clogged.

RM




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Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Jim Cathey]

ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans
fluid in this application?


Water.  Don't know how, but water.  How's the vent?

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Indy CL - 1980 300SD - $1100

[Jim Cathey]

Thinking about taking a look at this 116. The "heater does not work" 
catches

my eye as extremely odd. More expensive to fix heater core than car is
worth?


Close.  It has the Evil Chrysler ACC Servo from Hell in it.
Tres expenseeve.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D

[Jim Cathey]

I examined all the fuses and replaced the ones listed for these items 
but it

didn't help.


Squirt contact cleaner into the hazard switch and cycle it about
a bazillion times.  Classic failure mode.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?

[Jim Cathey]

Valve lifters or tappets and/or the timing chain rattling have been 
proposed as the cause of my knock on startup.


I'd look long and hard at the timing chain tensioner.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Jim Cathey]

Which style?  Dial, micrometer click, or split-beam?


I vote for beam.  It's what I have.  Treated nicely it will
last forever and never go out of calibration.  Merely slightly
harder to use.  For brands, whatever you can find is probably
good.  They're easy to test, just clamp a socket in a vise and
hang a known weight off of the pivot point of the handle, which
is at a known (measurable) distance.

I have a pawnshop 1/2" beam wrench I use for my engine stuff.

-- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Indy CL - 1980 300SD - $1100

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

not even close

Chris Lane wrote:

The really simple thing that would make the heater not work, or at least
just blow cold air it the thermostat being stuck open.  Easy fix at least in
a 126, I would imagine its pretty similar in a 116

On 5/26/07, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Ed Booher wrote:

Thinking about taking a look at this 116. The "heater does not work"

catches

my eye as extremely odd. More expensive to fix heater core than car is
worth?

Probably a seized Chrysler climate control servo.
I think new servos can still be had from mbz classic for less than the
asking
price on the car. Rusty had some for about $600 a couple of years ago
IIRC.

Mitch.

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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D 2.5 Turbo, 90 420SEL,
 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 84 190D 2.2,
 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250
http://www.okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[OK Don]

I've read that the split beam is more accurate over the long term, and
it seems likely to me. Both the split beam and the dial types require
someone to be able to see the indicator directly to read it while
applying torque.This has been an issue for me in some instances in the
past. There is no such issue with the click types. I'm subscribing the
"consistent torque is better than absolute accuracy" theory, and have
three Craftsman click types, covering different ranges and sizes. I
ought to get the two older ones calibrated, but haven't. I did check
one against a split beam last year, and as best as we could tell, it
was still accurate.

Do check the manual for the head bolt tightening requirements - if
they are of the stretch bolt "turn 90 degrees, then another 90
degrees", a fancy torque wrench won't be of much use. The head bolts
on my cast iron 117 were of the usual torque in two steps, then loosen
a little and re-torque after reaching operating temperature variety -
not all MB engines are the same!

On 5/26/07, Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

You're saying that nothing special is needed to torque a head down?
Just a 1/2"
Craftsman will do?  I really liked the Armstrong's...they're a full lifetime
warranty with 90 days on the calibration.



--
OK Don, KD5NRO
Norman, OK
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise
of fighting a foreign enemy."
-James Madison
'90 300D, '87 300SDL, '81 240D, '78 450SLC, '97 Ply Grand Voyager

[MBZ] Oil Pressure Sender

[Rick Knoble]

Listers,
My oil pressure gauge has never worked on my 190 DT. Where is the sender on 
this engine? I know that it is a grounding resistor that is open at full 
pressure and grounded at zero pressure. However, I can't troubleshoot it if I 
don't know where it is.
Thanks,
Rick Knoble 
'85 300 CD
'87 190 DT
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Subject: Re: [MBZ] FW: Re:  M102 knocks on startup: Why?
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X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 03:39:44 -

??
The timing chain tensioner has a big spring in it with a ratchet type
mechanism that won't allow the tensioning piston to move back. How do I know
this? Because if you don't reset the bloody thing when putting in a fresh
chain you break the fresh chain quick smart.
Look basically the 102 is a noisy thing as it wears, the chain should be
done routinely and the valves adjusted. Other than that make sure the oil
gets changed religiously and you can try Mobil 1 in it. That will quiten it
down a little bit but basically the upper parts of the engine wear and
unless you are in the mood to spend money just put up with it. Oil presuure
should be 1 bar at hot idle and go up to 3 bar at about 1500rpm but that
will vary with engine temp and yes you should be able to see some pressure
when you crank for a while.

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Frederick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mercedes Discussion List"

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?


> The tensioner screws into the head on the passenger side, I believe,
> and pushes on the long curved rail.
>
> If you can push the rail back with a screwdriver, replace the
> tensioner.  It is a hydraulic type, operates off oil pressure and a
> bleed orifice.  If the internal seals are shot, it will leak down and
> allow the chain to slap until the oil pressure forces all the air out.
> In good shape, it is difficult or impossible to compress the tensioner
> against the oil bleed by hand.
>
> Peter
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Indy CL - 1980 300SD - $1100

[Chris Lane]

The really simple thing that would make the heater not work, or at least
just blow cold air it the thermostat being stuck open.  Easy fix at least in
a 126, I would imagine its pretty similar in a 116

On 5/26/07, Mitch Haley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Ed Booher wrote:
>
> Thinking about taking a look at this 116. The "heater does not work"
catches
> my eye as extremely odd. More expensive to fix heater core than car is
> worth?

Probably a seized Chrysler climate control servo.
I think new servos can still be had from mbz classic for less than the
asking
price on the car. Rusty had some for about $600 a couple of years ago
IIRC.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Luther]

You're saying that nothing special is needed to torque a head down?  
Just a 1/2"

Craftsman will do?  I really liked the Armstrong's...they're a full lifetime
warranty with 90 days on the calibration. 


--
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine


Quoting Peter Frederick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


My brother has used his Snap-on click type for several decades.  Quite
reliable, easy to use, and rather pricey. 


You only need a cheapie for the SDL, though -- even torque to 35
ft/lbs, then tighten a quarter turn twice. 


Peter

Re: [MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Peter Frederick]

My brother has used his Snap-on click type for several decades.  Quite 
reliable, easy to use, and rather pricey.


You only need a cheapie for the SDL, though -- even torque to 35 
ft/lbs, then tighten a quarter turn twice.


Peter

[MBZ] torque wrench shopping

[Luther]

Which style?  Dial, micrometer click, or split-beam?  What brands?  Snap-On,
Armstrong, Precision Instruments, Craftsman, or others?

I'm going to be doing the head on my SDL and I'd like to have a high quality
1/2" 150-200 Newton-Meter torque wrench.   Suggestions, experience, and 2nd
hand knowledge welcome.  TIA all. 

-- 
Luther   KB5QHUAlma, Ark
'87 300SDL (271,xxx mi) needs head
'83 300SD (246,645 mi) SOLD!
'82 300CD (166 kmi) getting front end rebuild
'82 300D  (74 kmi) getting '85 donor engine-SOLD!
'85 300D (280,176) parts car-sans engine

Re: [MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?

[Peter Frederick]

The tensioner screws into the head on the passenger side, I believe, 
and pushes on the long curved rail.


If you can push the rail back with a screwdriver, replace the 
tensioner.  It is a hydraulic type, operates off oil pressure and a 
bleed orifice.  If the internal seals are shot, it will leak down and 
allow the chain to slap until the oil pressure forces all the air out.  
In good shape, it is difficult or impossible to compress the tensioner 
against the oil bleed by hand.


Peter

[MBZ] FW: Re: M102 knocks on startup: Why?

[Robert Bigham]

Hello all:

Valve lifters or tappets and/or the timing chain rattling have been proposed as 
the cause
of my knock on startup.  

Engine 102.980 has rocker arms that run on the camshaft and the heads of the 
valves, 
and doesn't have hydraulic valve lash compensators like Engine 102.961.  I'm 
sure the 
valve clearances are reasonably correct; my smart son the race engine builder 
set them 
with my help.  Since Engine 102.980 doesn't have valve lifters in the way that 
an old 6 
cylinder Chevrolet does or hydraulic valve lash compensators like Engine 
102.961, the 
list of possible causes leaves the timing chain for now.  I didn't say so 
before, but the 
engine has about 141,000 miles.  Somewhere I think I picked up to replace the 
timing 
chain sometime between 150,000 and 200,000 miles. This 102.980 chain is a 
single row type.

I know little of timing chains on Mercedes Benz; I have only installed one on a 
5 cylinder 
diesel.  I know they have guides near the camshaft, a long curved plastic piece 
they slide 
over, and a tensioner up near the top. 

Can anyone propound a test I might do to rule out the timing chain as the cause 
of the 
knock?  Or should I do something to adjust the tension?  Also, does anyone know 
if 
the oil pressure ought to build up as the engine starts rather than after it 
starts?  

Robert Bigham
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.


Robert Bigham
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
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Subject: Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D
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X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 01:52:48 -

I concur with glee. That fixed our turn signals in our 83 240D (the repeated
operation of the 4 way switch). Only problem now is that when I put on the 4
ways, only the right side flashes, until I turn on the left turn signal,
then all 4 ways flash. No  biggie to me.

Brian
83 240D


On 5/26/07, Craig McCluskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:48:53 -0400 "Mike Canfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > I'd look at the contacts in the 4 way flasher switch in the center
> > console.
>
> You can try the simple approach: just actuate the switch about a million
> times, making sure to move it to the off position solidly.
>
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [MBZ] Fuel Mileage

[Kevin Kraly]

It's all in the marketing.  People are told that their hybrid is helping the 
environment, and that's a good thing to help pollution and be more "green," 
lots of hipe.  I'll just stick with my Diesels.


Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula 

Re: [MBZ] No turn signals and no 4-way flasher, 81 240D

[Craig McCluskey]

On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:48:53 -0400 "Mike Canfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I'd look at the contacts in the 4 way flasher switch in the center
> console.

You can try the simple approach: just actuate the switch about a million
times, making sure to move it to the off position solidly.


Craig

Re: [MBZ] Milky ATF

[Rich Thomas]

I think the list mom had some sort of similar experience a few months 
back and attributed it to rainwater getting in the tranny via some vent 
or loose fitting or something like that.


--R

Redghost wrote:
I am sort of scratching my head here.  I just changed the ATF in  
Gump, a 220D manual.  What came out was nasty, milky rusted looking  
Mobil 1 ATF.  She had less than 30k on the fluid, I just was feeling  
something was not right, so I change  it.  There is no obvious  
coolant hoses going into the transmission, and I do not think there  
is any transmission parts going near the radiator.  Checked the oil  
and coolant and no water in one or oil in the other.


ATF did not smell bad or burnt.  WTF is the meaning of milky trans  
fluid in this application?







--
Clay
Seattle Bioburner

1972 220D - Gump
1995 E300D - Cleo
1987 300SDL - POS - DOA
The FSM would drive a Diesel Benz


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