Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Jim Cathey]

Does an intercooler help in any way on a diesel


When combined with other factors yes it is a big win.
The crazy Finns are using them.  So is my Dodge 6BTA.
(T for turbo, A for aftercooler.)  Bolting one on alone
does _nothing_!


I was fixated on the "hood scope"


Now I want to lash the Tektronix 561A to the hood
of the Frankenheap...

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] Intercoolers

[Peter Frederick]

Intercooling also increases the charge density, which means more air  
per stroke which means you can burn more fuel.  Critical in gassers,  
since too high an inlet temp means pre-ignition, or worse, detonation,  
but handy in diesels for more power.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Mercedes Digest, Vol 83, Issue 6

[RELNGSON]

> ..So the turbo engine only costs $165,000 more than the NA engine?...
> 
Turbos always cost more but in this case, the Jet-A engine is entirely new 
along with it's ancillary systems. 

RLE
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Intercoolers

[RELNGSON]

> ...That's interesting, I would have thought that even though the air is
> less dense at altitude it is also a lot colder...
> 
Compressing the incoming air raises it's temperature and the air-to-air 
intercooler cools it down but not to ambient, of course. Without the 
intercooler, the engine temps can elevate to the point where the throttle 
setting must 
be reduced.

RLE

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Re: [MBZ] Jet-A

[RELNGSON]

> Minor correction - the Jet-A engine is in the new 182 to replace the 
> turbo
> Continental engine. The NA 182 still has a Continental 0-470
> 
Yes, I mistyped that. I assume you read the reviews in AOPA Pilot and 
Flying.

RLE
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Re: [MBZ] Dense Intercooling

[WILTON]

Dry (unsaturated air) adiabatic lapse rate = ~ -5 degrees F/1000 feet rise 
in altitude and ~ -1 degree C/3000 feet rise in altitude.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "G Mann" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Dense Intercooling



OOOooopps.. typo..

Should read:
"Rise in altitude and DROP in temp"

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:02 PM, G Mann  wrote:


Hendrik
Point well made. True, as you go up in altitude.. temps drop.. [as a rule
of thumb, 1 degree F per thousand ft. {same rule, different math for
"meter/Centigrade}].  However, along with that rise in altitude, and 
temp,
you also have a lowering in air density.. In the brief comments previous, 
I
did not make that distinction. {ask an engineer how to sharpen a pencil 
he

says... "first cut down a tree etc etc"]

Naturally, to design a "charge air cooler system" it needs to take into
account properly such things as ambient air density, and temperature... 
and

compensate for those factors..

Thus, the well employed engineers with car companies. or... you could
do what the "hood scope" buy did in the Original posting... and just 
throw
enough S*($#t against the wall until some of it sticks and call it 
"good".


"I wonder what the wind tunnel flow separation numbers look like on the
"hood scope"

Smiles
Grant


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Hendrik & Fay 
wrote:


That's interesting, I would have thought that even though the air is 
less

dense at altitude it is also a lot colder.
Also I found that Diesel engines work better at night, which I guess may
be down to air density?

Hendrik
who is dense

On 03/10/12 09:03, relng...@aol.com wrote:

The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make 
it
more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since 
at

least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including
aircraft. Even
so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
overheat at high altitudes.

And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
available
in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for
Jet-A, not
diesel fuel.

Costs about $500K, BTW.

RLE







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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

It's In the back yard not sure if I have enough room to take off

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:12 PM, OK Don  wrote:

> Cool! Fly over to 33OK and show me!
> 
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:
> 
>> I bought one of those
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 2, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Craig  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:33:25 -0400 (EDT) relng...@aol.com wrote:
>>> 
 And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
 available in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100
 inches of manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is
 built for Jet-A, not diesel fuel.
 
 Costs about $500K, BTW.
>>> 
>>> The cover story for the latest issue of Aviation (at least I think that's
>>> the title) magazine, $550 k, to be exact for a Cessna 182.
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> OK Don
> 2001 ML320
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
> 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
> 1957 C182A
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Battery or starter?

[Max Dillon]

Peter,

Thanks, I hope we're both right.  Thursday night I'll check it out.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300
'87 300TD

Peter Frederick  wrote:

>Sounds like battery to me, that's how all of mine have quit, although  
>usually when cold out.
>
>Easy to check -- turn the headlights on and crank.  If they go out,  
>it's likely the battery.  Those starters don't usually exhibit the  
>high internal resistance/slow crank thing the older ones do, they tend 
>
>to lock up when the bushing wear out instead.  In that case there is  
>suddenly no starter motion at all, just the solenoid clicking but huge 
>
>battery draw.
>
>Peter
>
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Re: [MBZ] Didn't intend to do that today

[Peter Frederick]

Both connectors are part of the overflow system, and in fact all the  
fuel from the last one goes all the way through the others and back to  
the tank.  Doesn't matter which one has the plug.  The nozzles always  
leak a bit, they have to in order for the poppets to move, so there is  
an internal circular slot where the leakage goes.  The nipples on the  
injectors drain this circular slot.


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] Didn't intend to do that today

[Max Dillon]

Curt,

Matters not!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300
'87 300TD
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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[OK Don]

Cool! Fly over to 33OK and show me!

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote:

> I bought one of those
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 2, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Craig  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:33:25 -0400 (EDT) relng...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
> >> available in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100
> >> inches of manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is
> >> built for Jet-A, not diesel fuel.
> >>
> >> Costs about $500K, BTW.
> >
> > The cover story for the latest issue of Aviation (at least I think that's
> > the title) magazine, $550 k, to be exact for a Cessna 182.
> >
>



-- 
OK Don
2001 ML320
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[Craig]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 20:53:21 -0400 Mitch Haley  wrote:

> OK Don wrote:
> > Oh, but the non-turbo, gasoline powered 182 is only $385,000 - what a
> > bargain!
> 
> So the turbo engine only costs $165,000 more than the NA engine?

It does cost that much more, but it's a turbo diesel, not a turbo
gasoline. And, yes, it does have a gauge the shows up to 100" of turbo
boost (and I do think it's inches of mercury, so that's 49 psi of boost).


Craig

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[MBZ] Didn't intend to do that today

[Curt Raymond]

Ever since I changed the fuel filters in my '84 190D I've noticed a whiff of 
diesel when idling or when first starting (which I guess is idling). I checked 
all around the new filters but couldn't find any leakage. Finally had the head 
slap moment when I realized it was the return lines which I've never changed. 
Put that on the "to do list" since it seems to rain all the time lately.

Today my wife took the car to work and complained that the diesel smell (which 
she surprisingly hadn't noticed previously) was really bad. Tonight after 
dinner I got lucky and the rain abated so I ran out and dug through my spares 
box. I found the viton tubing I'd bought to put lines on my '83 240D years ago 
and there was just enough left for this job. I even cut apart the end plug and 
put it into the viton. All back in place I can't detect any leaks and the smell 
is less so thats a win.
I never did find a smoking gun on leakage, worst one was the rearmost but even 
that one wasn't bad, none were wet with fuel...

One question, I didn't take a picture before dissassembly and I couldn't 
remember on the last injector which side took the return line and which took 
the plug. I ran it the most expedient way but it led me to wonder if it 
matters. I either got it right or it doesn't matter and I was reassured when 
pushing on the plug I could make diesel come out the return line on the next 
injector back...

So, does it matter which connector goes where?

-Curt

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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

I bought one of those

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 2, 2012, at 7:09 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:33:25 -0400 (EDT) relng...@aol.com wrote:
> 
>> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
>> available in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100
>> inches of manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is
>> built for Jet-A, not diesel fuel.
>> 
>> Costs about $500K, BTW.
> 
> The cover story for the latest issue of Aviation (at least I think that's
> the title) magazine, $550 k, to be exact for a Cessna 182.
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[G Mann]

Cheap... and Aviation may never be used in the same sentence FAA
rule... I think.. hahaha..

The engine is only $40,000... the paperwork adds the rest to make it an
even $500K


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 4:33 PM,  wrote:

> > ..One of the things an intercooler does on a turbodiesel is to lower the
> > temp
> > (and pressure) of the intake charge to prevent early ignition
> >
> The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it
> more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at
> least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including aircraft.
> Even
> so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
> overheat at high altitudes.
>
> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine available
> in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
> manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for
> Jet-A, not
> diesel fuel.
>
> Costs about $500K, BTW.
>
> RLE
>
>
>
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[MBZ] Job Search was Re: Oookkkkk

[Rick Knoble]

On Oct 2, 2012, at 7:07 PM, "Craig"  wrote:

> If I had been accepted by Taylor University, I
> would have been re-learning it ahead of the students.


How is the job search going?

Rick
Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] Dense Intercooling

[G Mann]

OOOooopps.. typo..

Should read:
"Rise in altitude and DROP in temp"

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:02 PM, G Mann  wrote:

> Hendrik
> Point well made. True, as you go up in altitude.. temps drop.. [as a rule
> of thumb, 1 degree F per thousand ft. {same rule, different math for
> "meter/Centigrade}].  However, along with that rise in altitude, and temp,
> you also have a lowering in air density.. In the brief comments previous, I
> did not make that distinction. {ask an engineer how to sharpen a pencil he
> says... "first cut down a tree etc etc"]
>
> Naturally, to design a "charge air cooler system" it needs to take into
> account properly such things as ambient air density, and temperature... and
> compensate for those factors..
>
> Thus, the well employed engineers with car companies. or... you could
> do what the "hood scope" buy did in the Original posting... and just throw
> enough S*($#t against the wall until some of it sticks and call it "good".
>
> "I wonder what the wind tunnel flow separation numbers look like on the
> "hood scope"
>
> Smiles
> Grant
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Hendrik & Fay wrote:
>
>> That's interesting, I would have thought that even though the air is less
>> dense at altitude it is also a lot colder.
>> Also I found that Diesel engines work better at night, which I guess may
>> be down to air density?
>>
>> Hendrik
>> who is dense
>>
>> On 03/10/12 09:03, relng...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it
>>> more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at
>>> least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including
>>> aircraft. Even
>>> so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
>>> overheat at high altitudes.
>>>
>>> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
>>> available
>>> in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
>>> manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for
>>> Jet-A, not
>>> diesel fuel.
>>>
>>> Costs about $500K, BTW.
>>>
>>> RLE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> __**_
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
>> To search list archives 
>> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Dense Intercooling

[G Mann]

Hendrik
Point well made. True, as you go up in altitude.. temps drop.. [as a rule
of thumb, 1 degree F per thousand ft. {same rule, different math for
"meter/Centigrade}].  However, along with that rise in altitude, and temp,
you also have a lowering in air density.. In the brief comments previous, I
did not make that distinction. {ask an engineer how to sharpen a pencil he
says... "first cut down a tree etc etc"]

Naturally, to design a "charge air cooler system" it needs to take into
account properly such things as ambient air density, and temperature... and
compensate for those factors..

Thus, the well employed engineers with car companies. or... you could
do what the "hood scope" buy did in the Original posting... and just throw
enough S*($#t against the wall until some of it sticks and call it "good".

"I wonder what the wind tunnel flow separation numbers look like on the
"hood scope"

Smiles
Grant

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Hendrik & Fay wrote:

> That's interesting, I would have thought that even though the air is less
> dense at altitude it is also a lot colder.
> Also I found that Diesel engines work better at night, which I guess may
> be down to air density?
>
> Hendrik
> who is dense
>
> On 03/10/12 09:03, relng...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it
>> more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at
>> least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including aircraft.
>> Even
>> so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
>> overheat at high altitudes.
>>
>> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
>> available
>> in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
>> manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for
>> Jet-A, not
>> diesel fuel.
>>
>> Costs about $500K, BTW.
>>
>> RLE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __**_
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives 
> http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[Mitch Haley]

OK Don wrote:

Oh, but the non-turbo, gasoline powered 182 is only $385,000 - what a
bargain!


So the turbo engine only costs $165,000 more than the NA engine?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[Craig]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:15:26 -0500 OK Don  wrote:

> Oh, but the non-turbo, gasoline powered 182 is only $385,000 - what a
> bargain!

Yes, indeedy! Cheap at half the price!


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Dense Intercooling

[Hendrik & Fay]

That's interesting, I would have thought that even though the air is 
less dense at altitude it is also a lot colder.
Also I found that Diesel engines work better at night, which I guess may 
be down to air density?


Hendrik
who is dense

On 03/10/12 09:03, relng...@aol.com wrote:

The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it
more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at
least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including aircraft. Even
so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
overheat at high altitudes.

And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine available
in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for Jet-A, 
not
diesel fuel.

Costs about $500K, BTW.

RLE







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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[OK Don]

Oh, but the non-turbo, gasoline powered 182 is only $385,000 - what a
bargain!

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:33:25 -0400 (EDT) relng...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
> > available in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100
> > inches of manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is
> > built for Jet-A, not diesel fuel.
> >
> > Costs about $500K, BTW.
>
> The cover story for the latest issue of Aviation (at least I think that's
> the title) magazine, $550 k, to be exact for a Cessna 182.
>
>
> Craig
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
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2001 ML320
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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[OK Don]

Correction to my correction - the current NA 182 has a Lycoming IO-540 with
the same HP as my Continental 0-470.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:06 PM, OK Don  wrote:

> Minor correction - the Jet-A engine is in the new 182 to replace the turbo
> Continental engine. The NA 182 still has a Continental 0-470.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:33 PM,  wrote:
>
>> > ..One of the things an intercooler does on a turbodiesel is to lower the
>> > temp
>> > (and pressure) of the intake charge to prevent early ignition
>> >
>> The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it
>> more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at
>> least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including aircraft.
>> Even
>> so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
>> overheat at high altitudes.
>>
>> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
>> available
>> in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
>> manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for
>> Jet-A, not
>> diesel fuel.
>>
>> Costs about $500K, BTW.
>>
>> RLE
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>>
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> OK Don
> 2001 ML320
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG
> 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
>
>


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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[Craig]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:33:25 -0400 (EDT) relng...@aol.com wrote:

> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine
> available in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100
> inches of manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is
> built for Jet-A, not diesel fuel.
> 
> Costs about $500K, BTW.

The cover story for the latest issue of Aviation (at least I think that's
the title) magazine, $550 k, to be exact for a Cessna 182.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Craig]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 15:10:03 -0400 Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Greg Fiorentino wrote:
> > This certainly is complex stuff, and I am trying to recall what I
> > learned in Power Lab many decades ago.  I think you are correct that
> > I got this garbled.
> 
> I had to read the Wiki myself.
> 
> For steam engines, Th *is* intake temperature.
> I'm sure Craig could lecture us in detail without referring to notes.

Thank you for you vote of confidence, Mitch, but thermodynamics is not a
strong point with me. If I had been accepted by Taylor University, I
would have been re-learning it ahead of the students.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[OK Don]

Minor correction - the Jet-A engine is in the new 182 to replace the turbo
Continental engine. The NA 182 still has a Continental 0-470.

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:33 PM,  wrote:

> > ..One of the things an intercooler does on a turbodiesel is to lower the
> > temp
> > (and pressure) of the intake charge to prevent early ignition
> >
> The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it
> more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at
> least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including aircraft.
> Even
> so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can
> overheat at high altitudes.
>
> And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine available
> in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of
> manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for
> Jet-A, not
> diesel fuel.
>
> Costs about $500K, BTW.
>
> RLE
>
>
>
> ___
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Mitch Haley]

Mitch Haley wrote:


efficiency, 1 - (Th/Tc), gets larger as Th gets larger.


Oops, that's 1 - (Tc/Th), and the negative component does go down as Th gets 
higher.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Mobil supersyn

[clay monroe]

I too am interested in that answer.  I picked up a case of M1 20-50 today since 
it is on sale at $5.50qt.  There was this advance stuff, but the check boxes on 
the shelf data card seemed to indicate it was less gooder than the true M1.

clay

On Oct 2, 2012, at 4:35 PM, WILTON wrote:

> 'Been coupla days without an oil thread, so here goes - what's Mobil 1 Super 
> synthetic?  Friend saw it on sale at Advance and called me with question.  
> 
> BTW, I've been getting M1  5 W 40 turbo Diesel truck oil at Wally's for last 
> coupla years.
> 
> Wilton
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[MBZ] Mobil supersyn

[WILTON]

'Been coupla days without an oil thread, so here goes - what's Mobil 1 Super 
synthetic?  Friend saw it on sale at Advance and called me with question.  

BTW, I've been getting M1  5 W 40 turbo Diesel truck oil at Wally's for last 
coupla years.

Wilton
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Re: [MBZ] Intercooling

[RELNGSON]

> ..One of the things an intercooler does on a turbodiesel is to lower the 
> temp
> (and pressure) of the intake charge to prevent early ignition
> 
The important thing is to lower the temp of the compressed air to make it 
more dense and thus lower the CHT. Intercoolers have been around since at 
least WW2 and are common in turbocharged gas engines. Including aircraft. Even 
so and intercooler or not, big-inch Continental aircraft engines can 
overheat at high altitudes.

And a bit OT, there is a new French built 4-cylinder Jet-A engine available 
in the Cessna 172 that is intercooled and pulls nearly 100 inches of 
manifold pressure. It is a compression ignition engine but is built for Jet-A, 
not 
diesel fuel.

Costs about $500K, BTW.

RLE



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Re: [MBZ] Getting Back Into the Klatta Klatta Fold

[Curt Raymond]

I went through this recently with my '78 240D except I had keys for both. My 
car had a junkyard ignition with one key and VIN doors/trunk with another. I 
pulled the ignition and reworked it so it matches the doors/trunk. After only 2 
years under my ownership its finally keyed right. ;)

-Curt

Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 14:56:51 -0600
From: Craig 
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Getting Back Into the Klatta Klatta Fold
Message-ID: <20121001145651.15160d4a2c6ce11953453...@pisquared.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 13:15:08 -0500 "Kaleb C. Striplin"
 wrote:

> Just order a new cylinder from rusty will have a new key alao

Yes, order it by VIN and order a master key by VIN, too. That way you'll
be able to get in the trunk and use one key as MB intended.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Randy Bennell]

On 02/10/2012 4:04 PM, G Mann wrote:

Another name for "intercooler" and a more proper one is "Intake Charge
Cooler"... It's purpose is to cool the charge of air coming into the engine
thus allowing more air to be packed into the cylinder making a more oxygen
dense "air charge" for combustion.[cold air is more dense, rule of physics]

If you want to make more power with a diesel... add more air... simple but
true. [Ok.. eventually more fuel also.. but to a point]

Finding the balance of how much cooling, how much air flow, tubing size,
available energy from extraction of the exhaust flow, etc etc etc.. has
kept engineers employed and sent children through college for years. It is
a fine art, supported by fine engineering, and a little luck [some days].

I'm sure the hood "scope" mounted device was only done after all those
considerations were weighed properly... right???

Respectfully,
Grant...



I hope so.
It would be a real shame to make the car ugly unless it had some purpose.

Randy

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[G Mann]

Another name for "intercooler" and a more proper one is "Intake Charge
Cooler"... It's purpose is to cool the charge of air coming into the engine
thus allowing more air to be packed into the cylinder making a more oxygen
dense "air charge" for combustion.[cold air is more dense, rule of physics]

If you want to make more power with a diesel... add more air... simple but
true. [Ok.. eventually more fuel also.. but to a point]

Finding the balance of how much cooling, how much air flow, tubing size,
available energy from extraction of the exhaust flow, etc etc etc.. has
kept engineers employed and sent children through college for years. It is
a fine art, supported by fine engineering, and a little luck [some days].

I'm sure the hood "scope" mounted device was only done after all those
considerations were weighed properly... right???

Respectfully,
Grant...

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Greg Fiorentino wrote:
>
>> Actually a properly set up intercooler on any turbodiesel greatly
>> increases
>> the efficiency of the engine.  The laws of thermodynamics are such that
>> the
>> efficiency of an engine is proportional to the difference in temperature
>> of
>> the intake and exhaust gases.
>>
>
> You've said this before, and I never knew where you were coming from.
>
>
>
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Thermal_efficiency#Engine_**
>> cycle_efficiency
>>
>
> Thanks for the link. It appears that you are confusing combustion
> temperature, Th, with intake manifold temperature. At any rate,  the
> efficiency, 1 - (Th/Tc), gets larger as Th gets larger.
> What you want is high combustion temp and low exhaust temp. Exhaust heat
> is waste energy out the tailpipe. Intake temp is not a factor in this
> calculation.
>
> IMO, heat entering the engine can only help to increase Th, and hence the
> efficiency of the engine, except that a denser intake charge might increase
> the effective compression ratio.
>
> Mitch.
>
> __**_
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>
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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Mitch Haley]

Greg Fiorentino wrote:

This certainly is complex stuff, and I am trying to recall what I learned in
Power Lab many decades ago.  I think you are correct that I got this
garbled.


I had to read the Wiki myself.

For steam engines, Th *is* intake temperature.
I'm sure Craig could lecture us in detail without referring to notes.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Greg Fiorentino]

This certainly is complex stuff, and I am trying to recall what I learned in
Power Lab many decades ago.  I think you are correct that I got this
garbled.

One of the things an intercooler does on a turbodiesel is to lower the temp
(and pressure) of the intake charge to prevent early ignition.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 10:53 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Oook

Greg Fiorentino wrote:
> Actually a properly set up intercooler on any turbodiesel greatly 
> increases the efficiency of the engine.  The laws of thermodynamics 
> are such that the efficiency of an engine is proportional to the 
> difference in temperature of the intake and exhaust gases.

You've said this before, and I never knew where you were coming from.



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency#Engine_cycle_efficienc
> y

Thanks for the link. It appears that you are confusing combustion
temperature, Th, with intake manifold temperature. At any rate,  the
efficiency, 1 - (Th/Tc), gets larger as Th gets larger.
What you want is high combustion temp and low exhaust temp. Exhaust heat is
waste energy out the tailpipe. Intake temp is not a factor in this
calculation.

IMO, heat entering the engine can only help to increase Th, and hence the
efficiency of the engine, except that a denser intake charge might increase
the effective compression ratio.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Mitch Haley]

Greg Fiorentino wrote:

Actually a properly set up intercooler on any turbodiesel greatly increases
the efficiency of the engine.  The laws of thermodynamics are such that the
efficiency of an engine is proportional to the difference in temperature of
the intake and exhaust gases. 


You've said this before, and I never knew where you were coming from.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency#Engine_cycle_efficiency


Thanks for the link. It appears that you are confusing combustion temperature, 
Th, with intake manifold temperature. At any rate,  the efficiency, 1 - (Th/Tc), 
gets larger as Th gets larger.
What you want is high combustion temp and low exhaust temp. Exhaust heat is 
waste energy out the tailpipe. Intake temp is not a factor in this calculation.


IMO, heat entering the engine can only help to increase Th, and hence the 
efficiency of the engine, except that a denser intake charge might increase the 
effective compression ratio.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Mitch Haley]

Greg Fiorentino wrote:


Ideally the intercooler should act on the air after it has been compressed
by the turbo, not before.  This looks like it works on the air from the
"scope", not an ideal setup.


I don't see any underhood pics, but an intercooler before the turbo would be 
useless, just rigging up a cowl intake would be superior.


If you ran the U pipe from turbo to intake up to the top of the engine it would 
be the logical place to put the intercooler to minimize the length of the 
intercooler plumbing.


There's a green W115 running around Finland running a 617 with intercooler above 
the manifolds and valve cover, makes more power than the factory speed record 
car did in the 1970s.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Greg Fiorentino]

Actually a properly set up intercooler on any turbodiesel greatly increases
the efficiency of the engine.  The laws of thermodynamics are such that the
efficiency of an engine is proportional to the difference in temperature of
the intake and exhaust gases.  So the cooler the intake to the engine the
more power will be produced.  The turbo compresses the intake air, which in
turn heats it up.  The intercooler cools the intake air back down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency#Engine_cycle_efficiency

Ideally the intercooler should act on the air after it has been compressed
by the turbo, not before.  This looks like it works on the air from the
"scope", not an ideal setup.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Mitch Haley
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 9:26 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Oook

Randy Bennell wrote:
> So, the hood scoop  looks a bit odd on an MB diesel but it supposedly 
> holds an intercooler.
> Does anyone think it is effective? Does an intercooler help in any way 
> on a diesel or is it going against the grain  because a diesel needs 
> heat to fire?
> 

If you're pumping enough fuel and air to get the exhaust temps too high,
then an intercooler is vital. Otherwise there's no point.

If all somebody did was turn up the full load screw in the injection pump
and tighten the wastegate to match, I don't think the intercooler would be
needed.

If the pump has serious internal mods, then the intercooler is worth
something and the old OM617 might be making power similar to the one in the
diesel speed record car of 30 years ago.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Mitch Haley]

Randy Bennell wrote:
So, the hood scoop  looks a bit odd on an MB diesel but it supposedly 
holds an intercooler.
Does anyone think it is effective? Does an intercooler help in any way 
on a diesel or is it going against the grain  because a diesel needs 
heat to fire?




If you're pumping enough fuel and air to get the exhaust temps too high, then an 
intercooler is vital. Otherwise there's no point.


If all somebody did was turn up the full load screw in the injection pump and 
tighten the wastegate to match, I don't think the intercooler would be needed.


If the pump has serious internal mods, then the intercooler is worth something 
and the old OM617 might be making power similar to the one in the diesel speed 
record car of 30 years ago.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Randy Bennell]

So, the hood scoop  looks a bit odd on an MB diesel but it supposedly 
holds an intercooler.
Does anyone think it is effective? Does an intercooler help in any way 
on a diesel or is it going against the grain  because a diesel needs 
heat to fire?


Randy


On 02/10/2012 10:42 AM, G Mann wrote:

Ohhh... the racing stripe and I was fixated on the "hood scope"
google couldn't find what that was. h..

Buy it I'm sure it will turn heads at every concours event you take it
to..

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Tim C  wrote:


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin 
wrote:

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/3309092304.html

I was wondering what you found odd about this car, but then I saw the
racing stripe.
-Tim

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Re: [MBZ] Wilton's son and grandson [was: Re: 123 grille]

[WILTON]

I think he has 5 classes/subjects.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Mitch Haley" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Wilton's son and grandson [was: Re: 123 grille]



WILTON wrote:
Yep.  Scared/shocked me when he said he's taking twenty hours.  My 
response, "Please, be careful.  Don't let it get you "in trouble." 
'Asked 'im yesterday how's it going; his response, "Still okay; mid-term 
exams in a few days."


The time I took 20 hours there were a couple of four credit classes in my 
schedule so I was only taking 6 classes and it wasn't that bad.


Another time I took 24 hours in a summer, but that was four classes of 
three credits each for 7 weeks, and then another four in 7 weeks. That was 
pretty easy because I only had to think about four classes at a time.


The above enabled me to return to school in January as a Junior and do two 
years' work in one calendar year.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[G Mann]

Ohhh... the racing stripe and I was fixated on the "hood scope"
google couldn't find what that was. h..

Buy it I'm sure it will turn heads at every concours event you take it
to..

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Tim C  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin 
> wrote:
> >
> > http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/3309092304.html
>
> I was wondering what you found odd about this car, but then I saw the
> racing stripe.
> -Tim
>
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Re: [MBZ] Wilton's son and grandson [was: Re: 123 grille]

[Mitch Haley]

WILTON wrote:
Yep.  Scared/shocked me when he said he's taking twenty hours.  My 
response, "Please, be careful.  Don't let it get you "in trouble."  
'Asked 'im yesterday how's it going; his response, "Still okay; mid-term 
exams in a few days."


The time I took 20 hours there were a couple of four credit classes in my 
schedule so I was only taking 6 classes and it wasn't that bad.


Another time I took 24 hours in a summer, but that was four classes of three 
credits each for 7 weeks, and then another four in 7 weeks. That was pretty easy 
because I only had to think about four classes at a time.


The above enabled me to return to school in January as a Junior and do two 
years' work in one calendar year.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[WILTON]

'Should be hung in the public square before sunset.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Kaleb C. Striplin" 

To: "Mercedes Discussion List" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 8:51 AM
Subject: [MBZ] Oook




http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/3309092304.html

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Re: [MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Tim C]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Kaleb C. Striplin  wrote:
>
> http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/3309092304.html

I was wondering what you found odd about this car, but then I saw the
racing stripe.
-Tim

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[MBZ] Oookkkkk

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/3309092304.html

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