Re: [MBZ] Using epc.Startekinfo for W123
Parts diagrams... LarryT On 10/19/2014 10:02 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote: I must have missed something - what's the site good for? On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Its the same on that ruskie VIN lookup site that was posted a couple weeks ago. I tried the 123.123.10 number and it would not work. Then i tried putting WDB in front of the number without periods, and it worked. I have not yet tried WDB11011010 yet. Has anyone found a way to use epc.startekinfo.com http://epc.startekinfo.com for pre-82 W123 MB's? As you know it doesn't have the standardized VIN number which I believe came out in 1982 so I have not been able to use it for my 78 240D. Any ideas? I tried the Help Link but haven't heard back yet. Thanks, LarryT 78 240D 91 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Best aftermarket injector nozzles
Found a site last night in the fatherland that sells Monark nozzles for my car for about $27 each, plus $21 shipping. Need to double check my part numbers to make sure I've selected the right nozzle. Max Dillon, Charleston SC On Oct 19, 2014 5:05 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm going through this with my 190D. Mark likes Monark but doesn't have any in stock. I'm going to order some of the Made in Germany Monarks unless I find a deal on Made in Germany Bosch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] White Whale - Thar she blows!
Coolant really, and not actually a blow but more of a drip. No leakage when the engine is hot, either running or off, but after cooling overnight there will be a small puddle under the rear of the engine. My first thought was the fuel heat exchanger connection to the block, but the recirculation pump is also in that area. Anyone have the cooling system pressure tester to loan? Other than that, engine seems to be running great, very smooth and plenty of power. A couple oil drips to chase down, electrical system for locks is a mess, trip meter still broken. I've also got a brake problem with front right caliper, that wheel is much warmer than the rest and the car initially pulls to the right when braking. Max Dillon, Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Best aftermarket injector nozzles
Mercedessource lists them for $31 each with no note of shipping as they are out of stock. Whats the site? I'm ready to order, my 2.2l uses the same nozzles as the old 616... -Curt From: Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Best aftermarket injector nozzles Found a site last night in the fatherland that sells Monark nozzles for my car for about $27 each, plus $21 shipping. Need to double check my part numbers to make sure I've selected the right nozzle. Max Dillon, Charleston SC On Oct 19, 2014 5:05 PM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm going through this with my 190D. Mark likes Monark but doesn't have any in stock. I'm going to order some of the Made in Germany Monarks unless I find a deal on Made in Germany Bosch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] White Whale - Thar she blows!
Coolant really, and not actually a blow but more of a drip... overnight there will be a small puddle under the rear of the engine. Our SEL had a pinhole in the heater hose, it would open and close on its own schedule, and never when you were looking for it. At the back. Also back there is the heater core, the heated washer tank, and the windshield heater loop. Plenty to leak! -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] Low rear chassis
The rear of my 1984 300d is setting low and it gets even lower when I add a passenger or two. I am thinking I need to purchase new coil springs. The shocks are pretty new. Does anyone have any thoughts for ways to address this issue? Thanks, Mike Esh Michael E. Esh ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Best aftermarket injector nozzles
http://en.technikexpert.com/ I had to use the Monark part number which cross-referenced to the MB / Bosch part number. -Max On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Mercedessource lists them for $31 each with no note of shipping as they are out of stock. Whats the site? I'm ready to order, my 2.2l uses the same nozzles as the old 616... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
Buy new springs? The fact that the car is dropping noticeably when you load it would imply that the springs are tired. I'm sure I will get corrected if wrong, but I don't believe you need a spring compressor to do rear springs, that you can unload the suspension and lower the control arm with a jack to get the spring out. Rear springs are about $160/each from the dealer. Factor in another $30 or so for new spring pads, too. Dan Sent from my iPad On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Michael Esh via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: The rear of my 1984 300d is setting low and it gets even lower when I add a passenger or two. I am thinking I need to purchase new coil springs. The shocks are pretty new. Does anyone have any thoughts for ways to address this issue? Thanks, Mike Esh Michael E. Esh ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
I think I have some spring pads I bought for my '83 240D. If anybody wants them they can have them for say $10 and shipping. -Curt From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis Buy new springs? The fact that the car is dropping noticeably when you load it would imply that the springs are tired. I'm sure I will get corrected if wrong, but I don't believe you need a spring compressor to do rear springs, that you can unload the suspension and lower the control arm with a jack to get the spring out. Rear springs are about $160/each from the dealer. Factor in another $30 or so for new spring pads, too. Dan Sent from my iPad On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Michael Esh via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: The rear of my 1984 300d is setting low and it gets even lower when I add a passenger or two. I am thinking I need to purchase new coil springs. The shocks are pretty new. Does anyone have any thoughts for ways to address this issue? Thanks, Mike Esh Michael E. Esh ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Best aftermarket injector nozzles
Also check for Bosio availability. On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: http://en.technikexpert.com/ I had to use the Monark part number which cross-referenced to the MB / Bosch part number. -Max On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: Mercedessource lists them for $31 each with no note of shipping as they are out of stock. Whats the site? I'm ready to order, my 2.2l uses the same nozzles as the old 616... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
Spring pads can pack down and wear out. There are other things besides weak springs that can cause rear geometry problems. Rear subframe bushings? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
Yes, 100% rear springs in a 123 can be removed without a compressor. I've done it, when replacing a noisy diff. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
You can try springs and find out it is probably a waste of money. Most likely you need new rubber in the entire rear subframe. This includes new rear subframe mounts, and new bushings in the lower control arms. New Diff mount is a good idea. New rubber seats for the springs should be put in too. those will make a difference. Eccentric bushings used to be available for the 123. Those can be used in the LCA No instructions are provided, so you have to figure out which position to mount them on your own. They can offset other wear, The 240D I rebushed the rear subframe in 6 yrs or so ago is still riding high and looks nice. Compared to modern (junk) cars with wide tires, the tires look a little skinny when it goes down the road, but otherwise it looks like a new car for 1981. Allow a day and have a 6' cheater pipe on hand, along with big blocks for safety when you do the job. The rear of my 1984 300d is setting low and it gets even lower when I add a passenger or two. I am thinking I need to purchase new coil springs. The shocks are pretty new. Does anyone have any thoughts for ways to address this issue? Thanks, Mike Esh Michael E. Esh ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] White Whale - Thar she blows!
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Anyone have the cooling system pressure tester to loan? Autozone has one they will loan (i.e. sell and return, up to 90 days I think). The included cap fits. I have run with it on, not sure whether that is advisable. Very impressive progress! Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] OT internet in the sticks
So 10 years ago at Okie acres 1, I had a wireless internet provider that ran 1mbps. After the trees grew up I could not get the signal anymore and they came out with excede, which was super fast but expensive and has a data cap. It ran 12 or faster. Then finally we got uverse available and it's cheap and runs 18mbps. Now moving out to Okie acres 2 we have sat or the original wireless provider we used to have has service here. I just had it installed and their fastest they have on this tower is 2.5. Wow it's quite a bit slower than what I am used to which does not matter too much for normal use but I am afraid to see how Netflix runs on it. Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
Good point, Jim. I had forgotten about subframe mounts. However, would subframe mount make the whole rear of the car low, and not be relative to the load? On a related issue, spring pads are of different sizes. You have to look at the edges to see how many tabs or notches they have. This identifies the thickness. You should see some very distinct little tabs or pins sticking out from the edge. This allows you to identify which thickness you have so the pad doesn't have to be removed to determine which size it is. Dan Sent from my iPad On Oct 20, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Jim Cathey jim.cathey...@gmail.com wrote: Spring pads can pack down and wear out. There are other things besides weak springs that can cause rear geometry problems. Rear subframe bushings? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Time for an Alternator Check?
I did determine (after looking at the EPC) that there is a replaceable regulator with brushes available for the 143 and 150 amp alternators. It's pricey, close to $100 from the dealer ($75 my cost) although there appears to be third party knockoffs for as little as $30 on FleaBay. Again, I'll be taking it to FLAPS tonight to get a diagnosis, but afterwards I'll probably crawl under and have a look around. Hopefully that big black cover on the back comes off easily and there is room to get at it. FWIW, a dealer reman is about $300 my cost. Genuine Bosch on the aftermarket is about $200. Dan Sent from my iPad ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Low rear chassis
Yes! As do worn LCA bushings Good point, Jim. I had forgotten about subframe mounts. However, would subframe mount make the whole rear of the car low, and not be relative to the load? On a related issue, spring pads are of different sizes. You have to look at the edges to see how many tabs or notches they have. This identifies the thickness. You should see some very distinct little tabs or pins sticking out from the edge. This allows you to identify which thickness you have so the pad doesn't have to be removed to determine which size it is. Dan Sent from my iPad On Oct 20, 2014, at 11:47 AM, Jim Cathey jim.cathey...@gmail.com wrote: Spring pads can pack down and wear out. There are other things besides weak springs that can cause rear geometry problems. Rear subframe bushings? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIUTshlFDrQ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT internet in the sticks
Netflix for movies? I thought you only watched those other kinds of movies In the evenings when everyone is home and trying to watch the Flix you probably won't even be able to use it for that. --R On 10/20/14 1:04 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes wrote: So 10 years ago at Okie acres 1, I had a wireless internet provider that ran 1mbps. After the trees grew up I could not get the signal anymore and they came out with excede, which was super fast but expensive and has a data cap. It ran 12 or faster. Then finally we got uverse available and it's cheap and runs 18mbps. Now moving out to Okie acres 2 we have sat or the original wireless provider we used to have has service here. I just had it installed and their fastest they have on this tower is 2.5. Wow it's quite a bit slower than what I am used to which does not matter too much for normal use but I am afraid to see how Netflix runs on it. Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
A Wisconsin crank is worth more than the engine. They are hard to find. Near as I can tell, Wisconsin is out of business. Kohler and Briggs seems to be growing into that area On 20/10/2014 2:13 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIUTshlFDrQ ___ nice little engine. Not sure what I would use it for, but I would like to have one. I have a Wisconsin 2 cylinder on a generator, with provision to crank it, but I do not have the crank. Something else I need to look for. RB ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
Wisconsin, Kohler and Briggs had some overlap, but Wisconsin had larger engines than anything Kohler or Briggs built. Kohler topped out around 24HP as did Briggs. Wisconsin went up into the 30HP range with engines like the VG4D. Dan Sent from my iPad On Oct 20, 2014, at 5:13 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: A Wisconsin crank is worth more than the engine. They are hard to find. Near as I can tell, Wisconsin is out of business. Kohler and Briggs seems to be growing into that area On 20/10/2014 2:13 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIUTshlFDrQ ___ nice little engine. Not sure what I would use it for, but I would like to have one. I have a Wisconsin 2 cylinder on a generator, with provision to crank it, but I do not have the crank. Something else I need to look for. RB ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
At one time I owned a Peugeot with a hand crank. Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley via Mercedes Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:14 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIUTshlFDrQ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] Old cars rock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18LrBpBPNlQ Eric has a good perspective about our love of cranky old cars clay 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately well tailored chap 1974 450sl - Frosch - Two tone green 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Time for an Alternator Check?
Went to FLAPS tonight and had the charging system checked. Battery - 964AH Starter - check Alternator - flat lined Before I pronounce it totally dead, I'm going to get under the car tomorrow after work and poke around. I'm hoping there is enough room to get the back cover off the alternator so I can check the regulator and brushes. If I can and they're kaput, I'll just roll the dice and buy an aftermarket regulator for $30. If everything is intact, then I have to decide on a source for a reman. Interestingly, Advance Auto, where I went for the check, has their house brand rebuilt Bosch for $170 with a lifetime warranty. With their regular discounts I can probably get another 30% off of that, too. I can get a genuine Bosch reman with a one year warranty for around $200. The question begs, do you roll the dice and go for the no-name reman Bosch and hope it never fails but if it does it's warrantied, or a real Bosch reman with a one year warranty? Dan On Oct 20, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I did determine (after looking at the EPC) that there is a replaceable regulator with brushes available for the 143 and 150 amp alternators. It's pricey, close to $100 from the dealer ($75 my cost) although there appears to be third party knockoffs for as little as $30 on FleaBay. Again, I'll be taking it to FLAPS tonight to get a diagnosis, but afterwards I'll probably crawl under and have a look around. Hopefully that big black cover on the back comes off easily and there is room to get at it. FWIW, a dealer reman is about $300 my cost. Genuine Bosch on the aftermarket is about $200. Dan Sent from my iPad ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
If my 200D had a crank, i could have started it. If my 240D had a crank it would start. It always starts when the first piston hits TDC on compression stroke. (within 180º) I am not saying it would be easy to start with a crank. It would take a lot of oomph or an inertia starter. Both my Volvo 2-lunger and Yanmar 1-lunger Diesel sailboat engines came with hand cranks. They did NOT start line the 4-banger in the video. The crank handles were handy for certain maintenance functions but I was never able to start even a warm Diesel with the hand crank unless someone held the compression release open until I got some RPM in the flywheel. Hand cranking may have been possible for a really big guy that was really scared. But not me. -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:19 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4 At one time I owned a Peugeot with a hand crank. Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Time for an Alternator Check?
Go real from our overly sexy part god. Next, on the cheap out scale is no name reman. The best return I got was to take the dead alt. out of Gump and have it rebuilt at a reputable shop. Probably would have been less time and expense to have one sent by Worldpac, but the rebuild lived for six years in Gump and the past three in Froggy. clay 2002 s430 - Victor, a Stately well tailored chap 1974 450sl - Frosch - Two tone green 1972 220D - Gump - She was green, simple and ran 1995 E300D - Gave her life to save me against a Dame in a SUV POS 1987 SDL - Beware Nigerian Scammers On Oct 20, 2014, at 5:59 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote: Went to FLAPS tonight and had the charging system checked. Battery - 964AH Starter - check Alternator - flat lined Before I pronounce it totally dead, I'm going to get under the car tomorrow after work and poke around. I'm hoping there is enough room to get the back cover off the alternator so I can check the regulator and brushes. If I can and they're kaput, I'll just roll the dice and buy an aftermarket regulator for $30. If everything is intact, then I have to decide on a source for a reman. Interestingly, Advance Auto, where I went for the check, has their house brand rebuilt Bosch for $170 with a lifetime warranty. With their regular discounts I can probably get another 30% off of that, too. I can get a genuine Bosch reman with a one year warranty for around $200. The question begs, do you roll the dice and go for the no-name reman Bosch and hope it never fails but if it does it's warrantied, or a real Bosch reman with a one year warranty? Dan On Oct 20, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I did determine (after looking at the EPC) that there is a replaceable regulator with brushes available for the 143 and 150 amp alternators. It's pricey, close to $100 from the dealer ($75 my cost) although there appears to be third party knockoffs for as little as $30 on FleaBay. Again, I'll be taking it to FLAPS tonight to get a diagnosis, but afterwards I'll probably crawl under and have a look around. Hopefully that big black cover on the back comes off easily and there is room to get at it. FWIW, a dealer reman is about $300 my cost. Genuine Bosch on the aftermarket is about $200. Dan Sent from my iPad ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
Onan used to have hand cranks on units up to 100kW years ago. I can recall one very large gas generator set with a huge six cylinder Continental engine on it that had a hand crank. I can't imagine what it would take to turn the thing over by hand. I swiped the enameled badge off of the valve cover. It's circular in shape, about 2-1/2 in diameter with red and black enameling on it. In the center of the circle is an outline of the U.S. Capitol dome, and around the outside are the words, Continental Engines - Powerful as the Nation. On Oct 20, 2014, at 9:01 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: If my 200D had a crank, i could have started it. If my 240D had a crank it would start. It always starts when the first piston hits TDC on compression stroke. (within 180º) I am not saying it would be easy to start with a crank. It would take a lot of oomph or an inertia starter. Both my Volvo 2-lunger and Yanmar 1-lunger Diesel sailboat engines came with hand cranks. They did NOT start line the 4-banger in the video. The crank handles were handy for certain maintenance functions but I was never able to start even a warm Diesel with the hand crank unless someone held the compression release open until I got some RPM in the flywheel. Hand cranking may have been possible for a really big guy that was really scared. But not me. -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:19 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4 At one time I owned a Peugeot with a hand crank. Greg ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] Time for an Alternator Check?
True, I have their TRT30 code stored in my browser s it kicks in every time I go to their web site. Thanks! Dan On Oct 20, 2014, at 9:22 PM, Rick Knoble rickkno...@hotmail.com wrote: Original Message From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:59 PM To: Mercedes List Interestingly, Advance Auto, where I went for the check, has their house brand rebuilt Bosch for $170 with a lifetime warranty. With their regular discounts I can probably get another 30% off of that, too. I can get a genuine Bosch reman with a one year warranty for around $200. The question begs, do you roll the dice and go for the no-name reman Bosch and hope it never fails but if it does it's warrantied, or a real Bosch reman with a one year warranty? You can probably get a $50 off coupon code, bringing the price down to $120. Rick Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT internet in the sticks
Our old ISP provided 3 down, and was usually OK for Hulu. we just switched to the other ISP in our area and now have 4 - I don't see much difference. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: So 10 years ago at Okie acres 1, I had a wireless internet provider that ran 1mbps. After the trees grew up I could not get the signal anymore and they came out with excede, which was super fast but expensive and has a data cap. It ran 12 or faster. Then finally we got uverse available and it's cheap and runs 18mbps. Now moving out to Okie acres 2 we have sat or the original wireless provider we used to have has service here. I just had it installed and their fastest they have on this tower is 2.5. Wow it's quite a bit slower than what I am used to which does not matter too much for normal use but I am afraid to see how Netflix runs on it. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
Must be why we never hear of Conti engines any more. I swiped the enameled badge off of the valve cover. It's circular in shape, about 2-1/2 in diameter with red and black enameling on it. In the center of the circle is an outline of the U.S. Capitol dome, and around the outside are the words, Continental Engines - Powerful as the Nation. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
My R69S would start just like your R50/2 did - every time. My MGA came with a crank for the original engine. A buddy would go with me to the AW drive-in where he'd jump over the door with the crank, I'd yell contact, and he'd start the engine with the crank, then jump back in over the door. I didn't want to cut a hole through the marginally large enough radiator to implement a crank for starting the Olds 215 V8 that replaced the MG engine after a couple of years. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIUTshlFDrQ snip I loved my BMW R50/2 because it was so predictable. Even after sitting all winter, turn on the gas (real gasoline back then) tickle the carbs, crank it once with ign off, turn on the funky post-key, turn it over once and it was running. Even the R75/5 was never that reliable or easy to start. /snip -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT: how to hand crank a V4
Continental still makes aircraft engines, even Diesel. I have one in the Cessna (not Diesel). On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Must be why we never hear of Conti engines any more. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] OT - another non-political B-52 tale - THE TACTICS
THE TACTICS By Wilton Strickland By 22 Dec '72, for four nights in a row, nearly 100 B-52's each night flew in-trail (one behind the other) at 35,000 to 36,000 feet at 450 knots true airspeed (TAS) (with a tailwind of about 100 knots) to an initial point (IP) 90 nautical miles northwest of Hanoi where they accelerated to 470 knots and turned southeast and split off to go their respective targets in and around Hanoi. The plan also required straight and level flight (no evasive maneuvers) from IP to target, turn west, immediately decelerate to 450 knots after release and withdraw against a headwind of nearly 120 knots. The aircraft were grouped into cells of three each with spacing of 15 seconds between each aircraft within the cell and 1 minute between cells. This gave the enemy air defense system plenty of time to track and fire on each aircraft as it came within range and get ready for the next one. Long before we got into the target area, the enemy already knew our exact altitude, speed, spacing and approach route - a large part of their acquisition and tracking problem had already been solved for them by American staff planners. During withdrawal, the combination of deceleration to 450 knots, the turn into the 120-knot headwind and evasive maneuvers (zigzagging) to evade the many SAMs fired at us, resulted in a straight line ground speed of significantly less than 300 knots, drastically increasing our exposure time. Several B-52's were being shot down every night, except the second night. Three had been lost on the 18th, six on the 20th, and two on the 21st. North Vietnamese gunners later confirmed that it was relatively easy to acquire their targets by just looking in the same area as the preceding one and waiting. Because an open bomb bay full of iron bombs reflects more radar energy than a closed bay, they also could get a better picture of us when bomb bay doors were opened, usually at 60 seconds before release (time-to-go - TG). Another more vulnerable time for the BUFF was in the post-release turn, a procedure developed by Paul Tibbets during WW II to enhance crew survival after a nuclear weapon release by placing the airplane as far as possible from the detonation with the airplane straight and level and tail to the burst at shockwave arrival and is completely irrelevant in conventional bombing - there's no shockwave reaching our altitude. The turn gave a special advantage to the enemy, though, by exposing a much larger radar cross-section, and the aircraft's electronic counter measures beam patterns were shifted up and away to the side in the turn, allowing the defenders to better paint their targets - the defenders later said that returns on their scopes tended to blossom when we opened the doors and when we made the post-release turn. We air crewmen were damned mad about the incompetent planning. I was one of several crewmen who questioned and protested such tactics almost immediately. I stood during the pre-mission briefing at U-Tapao on the second night of the campaign and asked, Who is planning such stupid tactics as this, and why? The answer given was, The planning is being done at Strategic Air Command (SAC) Headquarters in Nebraska, and the common route and altitude are used for 'ease of planning.' My reply to this was to suggest that the staff weenies come and fly some of these missions to get some ideas about how to develop better tactics. The North Vietnamese are using our common route and altitude, our in-trail formation, the long open-door time, the post-release turn and our slow withdrawal for 'ease of tracking and shoot-down.' (This was later confirmed by North Vietnamese gunners.) Our 17th Air Division Commander, B/G Glenn Sullivan, sitting two rows directly in front of me on the front row turned and looked up at me during my question and comments. He said nothing, but I could tell that he agreed with me. I adamantly maintained that we should fly as fast as possible from the initial point (IP) through withdrawal, do evasive maneuvers as necessary when fired upon if we could be back to straight and level at release, approach the target from different directions and altitudes, open the doors as late as possible, eliminate the post-release turn and withdraw to the east over the Tonkin Gulf, taking advantage of the 100 to 120-knot tailwind to get the Hell out of there ASAP. Most of us who protested did so by questioning bad tactics and offering alternatives. Protests by some of the crewmen became much more active, however - one pilot refused to fly, was later court-martialed and discharged. After flying the original in-trail tactics dictated by the weenies in Nebraska for the first several nights and losing bombers to enemy gunners almost every night, B/G Sullivan, went around/over his superiors on Guam, contacted the SAC Commander-in-Chief (CINCSAC) directly and persuaded him to
Re: [MBZ] OT - another non-political B-52 tale - THE TACTICS
Thanks Wilton! Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON via Mercedes Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:09 PM To: mercedes list; WILTON Subject: [MBZ] OT - another non-political B-52 tale - THE TACTICS THE TACTICS By Wilton Strickland By 22 Dec '72, for four nights in a row, nearly 100 B-52's each night flew in-trail (one behind the other) at 35,000 to 36,000 feet at 450 knots true airspeed (TAS) (with a tailwind of about 100 knots) to an initial point (IP) 90 nautical miles northwest of Hanoi where they accelerated to 470 knots and turned southeast and split off to go their respective targets in and around Hanoi. The plan also required straight and level flight (no evasive maneuvers) from IP to target, turn west, immediately decelerate to 450 knots after release and withdraw against a headwind of nearly 120 knots. The aircraft were grouped into cells of three each with spacing of 15 seconds between each aircraft within the cell and 1 minute between cells. This gave the enemy air defense system plenty of time to track and fire on each aircraft as it came within range and get ready for the next one. Long before we got into the target area, the enemy already knew our exact altitude, speed, spacing and approach route - a large part of their acquisition and tracking problem had already been solved for them by American staff planners. During withdrawal, the combination of deceleration to 450 knots, the turn into the 120-knot headwind and evasive maneuvers (zigzagging) to evade the many SAMs fired at us, resulted in a straight line ground speed of significantly less than 300 knots, drastically increasing our exposure time. Several B-52's were being shot down every night, except the second night. Three had been lost on the 18th, six on the 20th, and two on the 21st. North Vietnamese gunners later confirmed that it was relatively easy to acquire their targets by just looking in the same area as the preceding one and waiting. Because an open bomb bay full of iron bombs reflects more radar energy than a closed bay, they also could get a better picture of us when bomb bay doors were opened, usually at 60 seconds before release (time-to-go - TG). Another more vulnerable time for the BUFF was in the post-release turn, a procedure developed by Paul Tibbets during WW II to enhance crew survival after a nuclear weapon release by placing the airplane as far as possible from the detonation with the airplane straight and level and tail to the burst at shockwave arrival and is completely irrelevant in conventional bombing - there's no shockwave reaching our altitude. The turn gave a special advantage to the enemy, though, by exposing a much larger radar cross-section, and the aircraft's electronic counter measures beam patterns were shifted up and away to the side in the turn, allowing the defenders to better paint their targets - the defenders later said that returns on their scopes tended to blossom when we opened the doors and when we made the post-release turn. We air crewmen were damned mad about the incompetent planning. I was one of several crewmen who questioned and protested such tactics almost immediately. I stood during the pre-mission briefing at U-Tapao on the second night of the campaign and asked, Who is planning such stupid tactics as this, and why? The answer given was, The planning is being done at Strategic Air Command (SAC) Headquarters in Nebraska, and the common route and altitude are used for 'ease of planning.' My reply to this was to suggest that the staff weenies come and fly some of these missions to get some ideas about how to develop better tactics. The North Vietnamese are using our common route and altitude, our in-trail formation, the long open-door time, the post-release turn and our slow withdrawal for 'ease of tracking and shoot-down.' (This was later confirmed by North Vietnamese gunners.) Our 17th Air Division Commander, B/G Glenn Sullivan, sitting two rows directly in front of me on the front row turned and looked up at me during my question and comments. He said nothing, but I could tell that he agreed with me. I adamantly maintained that we should fly as fast as possible from the initial point (IP) through withdrawal, do evasive maneuvers as necessary when fired upon if we could be back to straight and level at release, approach the target from different directions and altitudes, open the doors as late as possible, eliminate the post-release turn and withdraw to the east over the Tonkin Gulf, taking advantage of the 100 to 120-knot tailwind to get the Hell out of there ASAP. Most of us who protested did so by questioning bad tactics and offering alternatives. Protests by some of the crewmen became much more active, however - one pilot refused to fly, was later court-martialed and discharged. After flying the original in-trail tactics dictated by the weenies in Nebraska
Re: [MBZ] OT - another non-political B-52 tale - THE TACTICS
Another lesson, by demonstration, that one of the leading causes of death in battle is stupidity by leadership. Personally, I'm very glad Wilton survived to tell the story, and rise in respect to those who did not. On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 8:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Another lesson in question authority . . . On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Thanks Wilton! Greg -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON via Mercedes Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:09 PM To: mercedes list; WILTON Subject: [MBZ] OT - another non-political B-52 tale - THE TACTICS THE TACTICS By Wilton Strickland By 22 Dec '72, for four nights in a row, nearly 100 B-52's each night flew in-trail (one behind the other) at 35,000 to 36,000 feet at 450 knots true airspeed (TAS) (with a tailwind of about 100 knots) to an initial point (IP) 90 nautical miles northwest of Hanoi where they accelerated to 470 knots and turned southeast and split off to go their respective targets in and around Hanoi. The plan also required straight and level flight (no evasive maneuvers) from IP to target, turn west, immediately decelerate to 450 knots after release and withdraw against a headwind of nearly 120 knots. The aircraft were grouped into cells of three each with spacing of 15 seconds between each aircraft within the cell and 1 minute between cells. This gave the enemy air defense system plenty of time to track and fire on each aircraft as it came within range and get ready for the next one. Long before we got into the target area, the enemy already knew our exact altitude, speed, spacing and approach route - a large part of their acquisition and tracking problem had already been solved for them by American staff planners. During withdrawal, the combination of deceleration to 450 knots, the turn into the 120-knot headwind and evasive maneuvers (zigzagging) to evade the many SAMs fired at us, resulted in a straight line ground speed of significantly less than 300 knots, drastically increasing our exposure time. Several B-52's were being shot down every night, except the second night. Three had been lost on the 18th, six on the 20th, and two on the 21st. North Vietnamese gunners later confirmed that it was relatively easy to acquire their targets by just looking in the same area as the preceding one and waiting. Because an open bomb bay full of iron bombs reflects more radar energy than a closed bay, they also could get a better picture of us when bomb bay doors were opened, usually at 60 seconds before release (time-to-go - TG). Another more vulnerable time for the BUFF was in the post-release turn, a procedure developed by Paul Tibbets during WW II to enhance crew survival after a nuclear weapon release by placing the airplane as far as possible from the detonation with the airplane straight and level and tail to the burst at shockwave arrival and is completely irrelevant in conventional bombing - there's no shockwave reaching our altitude. The turn gave a special advantage to the enemy, though, by exposing a much larger radar cross-section, and the aircraft's electronic counter measures beam patterns were shifted up and away to the side in the turn, allowing the defenders to better paint their targets - the defenders later said that returns on their scopes tended to blossom when we opened the doors and when we made the post-release turn. We air crewmen were damned mad about the incompetent planning. I was one of several crewmen who questioned and protested such tactics almost immediately. I stood during the pre-mission briefing at U-Tapao on the second night of the campaign and asked, Who is planning such stupid tactics as this, and why? The answer given was, The planning is being done at Strategic Air Command (SAC) Headquarters in Nebraska, and the common route and altitude are used for 'ease of planning.' My reply to this was to suggest that the staff weenies come and fly some of these missions to get some ideas about how to develop better tactics. The North Vietnamese are using our common route and altitude, our in-trail formation, the long open-door time, the post-release turn and our slow withdrawal for 'ease of tracking and shoot-down.' (This was later confirmed by North Vietnamese gunners.) Our 17th Air Division Commander, B/G Glenn Sullivan, sitting two rows directly in front of me on the front row turned and looked up at me during my question and comments. He said nothing, but I could tell that he agreed with me. I adamantly maintained that we should fly as fast as possible from the initial point (IP) through withdrawal, do evasive maneuvers as necessary when fired upon
