Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
Spending a fortune on design does not necessarily make a great car. I remember reading that Ford spent a fortune on the design of the first generation Taurus that came out in 1986. Don't get me wrong, it was innovative and good by the standards of what they had been building but they made it cheap and it showed fairly quickly. The struts, for one thing, wore out quickly. Second time around, they spent another fortune on the redesign to produce the oval version about 1996. I recall reading an article about how much effort was put into that car to avoid rattles and wind noise etc. Again, its quality was never as good as its design. Randy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kaleb C. Striplin Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:55 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS At the time the 140 was designed and built, MB spent more money designing it that any other car in their history. Was the most advanced car of the time. This told to me by and old german dude way back when they first came out with them. The next S was just cheap compared. Hell, even the later years of 140's were cheaped down. Didnt have as many features as the earlier ones E M wrote: Good points. You have to remember to when this car hit the scene, many ppl enjoyed bragging about how much they would spend for a service. :-) Todays climate, we are more likely to complain about it. :-) 126 was and still is a great car that mercedes got a LOT of years out of. I think they wanted a big push forward with the 140, and the car was not made or designed on the cheap! The car was very complicated, and the more stuff you have, the more there is to fail. Look at the recent threads on locks and tumblers. I don't hear anyone saying, oh the tumblers in 124 or 123 are junk. They're older, they fail, Add 5 times the number of parts, 5 times more parts to fail. After test driving a 140, it made the S that followed look like it was build down to a price, and I'm pretty sure it was. I also think leasing now plays a much larger part in the lack of long term maintance some of these higher end cars receive. I think there's a mind set as to how many treat cars when they bring them home new, and they know it won't still be sitting in their driveway 400,000 miles later. Drive the crap out of it, it only has to last 3-4 years. It shows too when they go to auction after a few owners. Ed 300E -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
On 8/13/07, R A Bennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spending a fortune on design does not necessarily make a great car. I remember reading that Ford spent a fortune on the design of the first generation Taurus that came out in 1986. Don't get me wrong, it was innovative and good by the standards of what they had been building Anything would have been a step up from the Granada. Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo et al. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
My college roommate in the 70s got a hand-me-down Granada from his grandmother. He was quite taken with it, It looks like a Mercedes! I think that was intended. --R Anything would have been a step up from the Granada. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy cats. A 140, 200K miles AND it's been wet. Move the decimal point two places left. Not quite that far. A 140 is HEAVY. Gotta be at least $300 for scrap metal. If you can sell the doors, trunk lid, fenders and hood for $100 each, and if the seats are nice enough to sell for $250, the car's easily worth $850. Engine and tranny might even be worth something IF the fluids were changed before it was started. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
I'd say the decimal two places to the left estimate is probably accurate. There may be that much in metal, but in a recent conversation with a boneyard owner, it was costing him a combined $20 an hour in labour to tear the things apart , so if your time is worth anything and it would take a single person a lot longer than the 3 guys eviscerating one at the boneyard with all of their available implements of destruction.. --Robert Mitch Haley wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy cats. A 140, 200K miles AND it's been wet. Move the decimal point two places left. Not quite that far. A 140 is HEAVY. Gotta be at least $300 for scrap metal. If you can sell the doors, trunk lid, fenders and hood for $100 each, and if the seats are nice enough to sell for $250, the car's easily worth $850. Engine and tranny might even be worth something IF the fluids were changed before it was started. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Robert Tara Ludwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd say the decimal two places to the left estimate is probably accurate. There may be that much in metal, but in a recent conversation with a boneyard owner, it was costing him a combined $20 an hour in labour to tear the things apart , so if your time is worth anything and it would take a single person a lot longer than the 3 guys eviscerating one at the boneyard with all of their available implements of destruction.. --Robert Mitch Haley wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy cats. A 140, 200K miles AND it's been wet. Move the decimal point two places left. Not quite that far. A 140 is HEAVY. Gotta be at least $300 for scrap metal. If you can sell the doors, trunk lid, fenders and hood for $100 each, and if the seats are nice enough to sell for $250, the car's easily worth $850. Engine and tranny might even be worth something IF the fluids were changed before it was started. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
The W140 chassis suffers from wiring pre-degredation, very unreliable computers (ignition, fuel injection, and climate control) and the whacko conveneince relay system also famous on the BMW 740il series of similar vintage. These are not whines, they are serious reliability problems. $4000 for an engine computer toasted by a bad wiring harness (another, what, $2500 plus $1500 for installation), a $2500 climate control computer, an engine trashed by a stupidly designed computer maintenance scheduling program, outrageous parts (dual pane argon filled passenger windows, a feature shared by Lexus) so a broken window costs $1000 to fix -- doesn't take long to figure out no one is going to spend that kinda money on fixing an $80,000 car, especially when all the electronics fail in a couple of years, average. The basic design is great, the materials (excepting anything electronic) is as good as it gets, but after $10,000 a year in warranty work, the owners dump them the day the warranty is up. Lots of them are in the dump, not worth fixing because the replacement parts are gonna croak in 25,000 miles just like the originals. My mechanic friend won't work on them, too much chance disconnecting the computer cables will fry the computer when you plug it back in due to all the insulation in the harness falling off the wires when you flex them. I'm not kidding, the Indianapolis Benz service center warns you NOT to unplug the computer unless you are replacing the harness. It was the beginning of the serious slide in quality Benz has undergone since being affiliated with Chrysler. Must have gotten the MoPar people involved in sourcing and specifying parts -- mostly junk. There was also a massive influx of American trained designers into the German auto world (see my comments on the BMW 740il series above. Lots of fancy crap for the American disposable car market, ruined the product. Spring seats rusting off, doors that go clank when you close the, smart electronics for the stinking window motors for Christ's sake, running off an Ethernet system and all internlinked computers, and so forth. $350 for a window motor and a $2500 tool to program it Disposable cars, once it's out of warrenty, it goes to the discount lot and hence to the dump. Lovely world we live in, eh? Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 12:36 PM, E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Robert Tara Ludwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd say the decimal two places to the left estimate is probably accurate. There may be that much in metal, but in a recent conversation with a boneyard owner, it was costing him a combined $20 an hour in labour to tear the things apart , so if your time is worth anything and it would take a single person a lot longer than the 3 guys eviscerating one at the boneyard with all of their available implements of destruction.. --Robert Mitch Haley wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy cats. A 140, 200K miles AND it's been wet. Move the decimal point two places left. Not quite that far. A 140 is HEAVY. Gotta be at least $300 for scrap metal. If you can sell the doors, trunk lid, fenders and hood for $100 each, and if the seats are nice enough to sell for $250, the car's easily worth $850. Engine and tranny might even be worth something IF the fluids were changed before it was started. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
As I said, parts and labour are not cheap however you look at it. Mind you, take a 240D to a dealer and check the bill you'll get! :-) I had a well off friend how liked his old 300D. He would often spend more than the market value on the car for a service! The was to run a old 140 is to do what many do here, buy several. With cars costing so little, why buy parts? Pick one up, part it out and stock piles bits you know you'll need. There was a lot of recycled material that went into the 140. I'm pretty sure parts made with that junk didn't do much better in other models either. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The W140 chassis suffers from wiring pre-degredation, very unreliable computers (ignition, fuel injection, and climate control) and the whacko conveneince relay system also famous on the BMW 740il series of similar vintage. These are not whines, they are serious reliability problems. $4000 for an engine computer toasted by a bad wiring harness (another, what, $2500 plus $1500 for installation), a $2500 climate control computer, an engine trashed by a stupidly designed computer maintenance scheduling program, outrageous parts (dual pane argon filled passenger windows, a feature shared by Lexus) so a broken window costs $1000 to fix -- doesn't take long to figure out no one is going to spend that kinda money on fixing an $80,000 car, especially when all the electronics fail in a couple of years, average. The basic design is great, the materials (excepting anything electronic) is as good as it gets, but after $10,000 a year in warranty work, the owners dump them the day the warranty is up. Lots of them are in the dump, not worth fixing because the replacement parts are gonna croak in 25,000 miles just like the originals. My mechanic friend won't work on them, too much chance disconnecting the computer cables will fry the computer when you plug it back in due to all the insulation in the harness falling off the wires when you flex them. I'm not kidding, the Indianapolis Benz service center warns you NOT to unplug the computer unless you are replacing the harness. It was the beginning of the serious slide in quality Benz has undergone since being affiliated with Chrysler. Must have gotten the MoPar people involved in sourcing and specifying parts -- mostly junk. There was also a massive influx of American trained designers into the German auto world (see my comments on the BMW 740il series above. Lots of fancy crap for the American disposable car market, ruined the product. Spring seats rusting off, doors that go clank when you close the, smart electronics for the stinking window motors for Christ's sake, running off an Ethernet system and all internlinked computers, and so forth. $350 for a window motor and a $2500 tool to program it Disposable cars, once it's out of warrenty, it goes to the discount lot and hence to the dump. Lovely world we live in, eh? Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 12:36 PM, E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Robert Tara Ludwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd say the decimal two places to the left estimate is probably accurate. There may be that much in metal, but in a recent conversation with a boneyard owner, it was costing him a combined $20 an hour in labour to tear the things apart , so if your time is worth anything and it would take a single person a lot longer than the 3 guys eviscerating one at the boneyard with all of their available implements of destruction.. --Robert Mitch Haley wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Holy cats. A 140, 200K miles AND it's been wet. Move the decimal point two places left. Not quite that far. A 140 is HEAVY. Gotta be at least $300 for scrap metal. If you can sell the doors, trunk lid, fenders and hood for $100 each, and if the seats are nice enough to sell for $250, the car's easily worth $850. Engine and tranny might even be worth something IF the fluids were
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
That $8500 car will cost that much every year or two to keep on the road. I don't think you get it -- no engine computer = dead car, and NONE of them last like they should. I've known people to get two or three during the extended warranty period -- and they are $4000 EACH. Ditto for the climate control, no workarounds possible, if it's out you have no ventilation, and it's the electronics. Window controller box fails pretty often, another $2500 so you can open a window. Only the 350 diesel is usable long term unless you have the cash to drop $5000 or more per year in repair PARTS -- there are NO used engine or climate control modules out there. Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 1:43 PM, E M wrote: As I said, parts and labour are not cheap however you look at it. Mind you, take a 240D to a dealer and check the bill you'll get! :-) I had a well off friend how liked his old 300D. He would often spend more than the market value on the car for a service! The was to run a old 140 is to do what many do here, buy several. With cars costing so little, why buy parts? Pick one up, part it out and stock piles bits you know you'll need. There was a lot of recycled material that went into the 140. I'm pretty sure parts made with that junk didn't do much better in other models either. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The W140 chassis suffers from wiring pre-degredation, very unreliable computers (ignition, fuel injection, and climate control) and the whacko conveneince relay system also famous on the BMW 740il series of similar vintage. These are not whines, they are serious reliability problems. $4000 for an engine computer toasted by a bad wiring harness (another, what, $2500 plus $1500 for installation), a $2500 climate control computer, an engine trashed by a stupidly designed computer maintenance scheduling program, outrageous parts (dual pane argon filled passenger windows, a feature shared by Lexus) so a broken window costs $1000 to fix -- doesn't take long to figure out no one is going to spend that kinda money on fixing an $80,000 car, especially when all the electronics fail in a couple of years, average. The basic design is great, the materials (excepting anything electronic) is as good as it gets, but after $10,000 a year in warranty work, the owners dump them the day the warranty is up. Lots of them are in the dump, not worth fixing because the replacement parts are gonna croak in 25,000 miles just like the originals. My mechanic friend won't work on them, too much chance disconnecting the computer cables will fry the computer when you plug it back in due to all the insulation in the harness falling off the wires when you flex them. I'm not kidding, the Indianapolis Benz service center warns you NOT to unplug the computer unless you are replacing the harness. It was the beginning of the serious slide in quality Benz has undergone since being affiliated with Chrysler. Must have gotten the MoPar people involved in sourcing and specifying parts -- mostly junk. There was also a massive influx of American trained designers into the German auto world (see my comments on the BMW 740il series above. Lots of fancy crap for the American disposable car market, ruined the product. Spring seats rusting off, doors that go clank when you close the, smart electronics for the stinking window motors for Christ's sake, running off an Ethernet system and all internlinked computers, and so forth. $350 for a window motor and a $2500 tool to program it Disposable cars, once it's out of warrenty, it goes to the discount lot and hence to the dump. Lovely world we live in, eh? Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 12:36 PM, E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Robert Tara Ludwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd say the decimal two places to the left estimate is probably accurate. There may be that much in metal, but in a recent conversation with a boneyard owner, it was costing him a combined $20 an hour
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
Guys in my area who have bought them new and run them and put many miles on them may not be as quick to send them to the crusher as you. Up here, the cars cost $120,000+ new. Who expects to buy such a car and run it for a $1000 per year? I state my rule of old car purchase again. Put 10% of the original purchase price aside to properly sort an old car that's in pretty good shape. That's $12,000. After that, I think if you keep ontop of it, you could probably do your own servicing on many items and run one for $2500-3000 per year, on parts? No, not cheap, but if you want cheap, what are you doing in a gas S Class in the first place? Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That $8500 car will cost that much every year or two to keep on the road. I don't think you get it -- no engine computer = dead car, and NONE of them last like they should. I've known people to get two or three during the extended warranty period -- and they are $4000 EACH. Ditto for the climate control, no workarounds possible, if it's out you have no ventilation, and it's the electronics. Window controller box fails pretty often, another $2500 so you can open a window. Only the 350 diesel is usable long term unless you have the cash to drop $5000 or more per year in repair PARTS -- there are NO used engine or climate control modules out there. Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 1:43 PM, E M wrote: As I said, parts and labour are not cheap however you look at it. Mind you, take a 240D to a dealer and check the bill you'll get! :-) I had a well off friend how liked his old 300D. He would often spend more than the market value on the car for a service! The was to run a old 140 is to do what many do here, buy several. With cars costing so little, why buy parts? Pick one up, part it out and stock piles bits you know you'll need. There was a lot of recycled material that went into the 140. I'm pretty sure parts made with that junk didn't do much better in other models either. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The W140 chassis suffers from wiring pre-degredation, very unreliable computers (ignition, fuel injection, and climate control) and the whacko conveneince relay system also famous on the BMW 740il series of similar vintage. These are not whines, they are serious reliability problems. $4000 for an engine computer toasted by a bad wiring harness (another, what, $2500 plus $1500 for installation), a $2500 climate control computer, an engine trashed by a stupidly designed computer maintenance scheduling program, outrageous parts (dual pane argon filled passenger windows, a feature shared by Lexus) so a broken window costs $1000 to fix -- doesn't take long to figure out no one is going to spend that kinda money on fixing an $80,000 car, especially when all the electronics fail in a couple of years, average. The basic design is great, the materials (excepting anything electronic) is as good as it gets, but after $10,000 a year in warranty work, the owners dump them the day the warranty is up. Lots of them are in the dump, not worth fixing because the replacement parts are gonna croak in 25,000 miles just like the originals. My mechanic friend won't work on them, too much chance disconnecting the computer cables will fry the computer when you plug it back in due to all the insulation in the harness falling off the wires when you flex them. I'm not kidding, the Indianapolis Benz service center warns you NOT to unplug the computer unless you are replacing the harness. It was the beginning of the serious slide in quality Benz has undergone since being affiliated with Chrysler. Must have gotten the MoPar people involved in sourcing and specifying parts -- mostly junk. There was also a massive influx of American trained designers into the German auto world (see my comments on the BMW 740il series above. Lots of fancy crap for the American disposable car market, ruined the product. Spring seats rusting off, doors that go clank when you close the, smart electronics for the stinking window motors for Christ's sake, running off an Ethernet system and all internlinked computers, and so forth. $350 for a window motor and a $2500 tool to program it Disposable cars, once it's out of warrenty, it goes to the discount lot and hence to the dump. Lovely world we live in, eh? Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 12:36 PM, E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
personally I love the 140's. Been keeping an eye out for one for the wife. And a diesel one for me even with the engine problem potential. E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
BZZZT, WRONG. The wiring harness issue affected ALL the models during certain years (93-95). Not all 140's suffer from this problem. Peter Frederick wrote: The W140 chassis suffers from wiring pre-degredation, very unreliable computers (ignition, fuel injection, and climate control) and the whacko conveneince relay system also famous on the BMW 740il series of similar vintage. These are not whines, they are serious reliability problems. $4000 for an engine computer toasted by a bad wiring harness (another, what, $2500 plus $1500 for installation), a $2500 climate control computer, an engine trashed by a stupidly designed computer maintenance scheduling program, outrageous parts (dual pane argon filled passenger windows, a feature shared by Lexus) so a broken window costs $1000 to fix -- doesn't take long to figure out no one is going to spend that kinda money on fixing an $80,000 car, especially when all the electronics fail in a couple of years, average. The basic design is great, the materials (excepting anything electronic) is as good as it gets, but after $10,000 a year in warranty work, the owners dump them the day the warranty is up. Lots of them are in the dump, not worth fixing because the replacement parts are gonna croak in 25,000 miles just like the originals. My mechanic friend won't work on them, too much chance disconnecting the computer cables will fry the computer when you plug it back in due to all the insulation in the harness falling off the wires when you flex them. I'm not kidding, the Indianapolis Benz service center warns you NOT to unplug the computer unless you are replacing the harness. It was the beginning of the serious slide in quality Benz has undergone since being affiliated with Chrysler. Must have gotten the MoPar people involved in sourcing and specifying parts -- mostly junk. There was also a massive influx of American trained designers into the German auto world (see my comments on the BMW 740il series above. Lots of fancy crap for the American disposable car market, ruined the product. Spring seats rusting off, doors that go clank when you close the, smart electronics for the stinking window motors for Christ's sake, running off an Ethernet system and all internlinked computers, and so forth. $350 for a window motor and a $2500 tool to program it Disposable cars, once it's out of warrenty, it goes to the discount lot and hence to the dump. Lovely world we live in, eh? Peter -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
I guess the problem with the 140 was that it followed the 126, people where used to the good old reliable but technologically challenged 126. When judging a particular chassis I feel that it is important not to compare it with previous Merc models but with what the competitors such as BMW, RR, etc, where serving up at the time. E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
Bit harsh to blame Chrysler for the reliability issues of the 140, a lot of the problems mentioned are due to parts suppliers. However this does not excuse MB for not putting the test miles on the chassis before release. Peter Frederick wrote: It was the beginning of the serious slide in quality Benz has undergone since being affiliated with Chrysler. Must have gotten the MoPar people involved in sourcing and specifying parts -- mostly junk. There was also a massive influx of American trained designers into the German auto world (see my comments on the BMW 740il series above. Lots of fancy crap for the American disposable car market, ruined the product. Spring seats rusting off, doors that go clank when you close the, smart electronics for the stinking window motors for Christ's sake, running off an Ethernet system and all internlinked computers, and so forth. $350 for a window motor and a $2500 tool to program it Disposable cars, once it's out of warrenty, it goes to the discount lot and hence to the dump. Lovely world we live in, eh? Peter m ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
Not sure what chrysler would have to do with the 140 since it came along way before chrysler did Hendrik wrote: Bit harsh to blame Chrysler for the reliability issues of the 140, a lot of the problems mentioned are due to parts suppliers. However this does not excuse MB for not putting the test miles on the chassis before release. -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
Good points. You have to remember to when this car hit the scene, many ppl enjoyed bragging about how much they would spend for a service. :-) Todays climate, we are more likely to complain about it. :-) 126 was and still is a great car that mercedes got a LOT of years out of. I think they wanted a big push forward with the 140, and the car was not made or designed on the cheap! The car was very complicated, and the more stuff you have, the more there is to fail. Look at the recent threads on locks and tumblers. I don't hear anyone saying, oh the tumblers in 124 or 123 are junk. They're older, they fail, Add 5 times the number of parts, 5 times more parts to fail. After test driving a 140, it made the S that followed look like it was build down to a price, and I'm pretty sure it was. I also think leasing now plays a much larger part in the lack of long term maintance some of these higher end cars receive. I think there's a mind set as to how many treat cars when they bring them home new, and they know it won't still be sitting in their driveway 400,000 miles later. Drive the crap out of it, it only has to last 3-4 years. It shows too when they go to auction after a few owners. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the problem with the 140 was that it followed the 126, people where used to the good old reliable but technologically challenged 126. When judging a particular chassis I feel that it is important not to compare it with previous Merc models but with what the competitors such as BMW, RR, etc, where serving up at the time. E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
At the time the 140 was designed and built, MB spent more money designing it that any other car in their history. Was the most advanced car of the time. This told to me by and old german dude way back when they first came out with them. The next S was just cheap compared. Hell, even the later years of 140's were cheaped down. Didnt have as many features as the earlier ones E M wrote: Good points. You have to remember to when this car hit the scene, many ppl enjoyed bragging about how much they would spend for a service. :-) Todays climate, we are more likely to complain about it. :-) 126 was and still is a great car that mercedes got a LOT of years out of. I think they wanted a big push forward with the 140, and the car was not made or designed on the cheap! The car was very complicated, and the more stuff you have, the more there is to fail. Look at the recent threads on locks and tumblers. I don't hear anyone saying, oh the tumblers in 124 or 123 are junk. They're older, they fail, Add 5 times the number of parts, 5 times more parts to fail. After test driving a 140, it made the S that followed look like it was build down to a price, and I'm pretty sure it was. I also think leasing now plays a much larger part in the lack of long term maintance some of these higher end cars receive. I think there's a mind set as to how many treat cars when they bring them home new, and they know it won't still be sitting in their driveway 400,000 miles later. Drive the crap out of it, it only has to last 3-4 years. It shows too when they go to auction after a few owners. Ed 300E -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 94 E420, 92 300D, 92 250D Turbo, 92 300E 4Matic, (2x) 91 300D, 90 420SEL, 89 560SEL, 89 260E, 87 300SDL, 87 300TD, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 81 240D, 81 380SLC, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 72 250C, 69 250 http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
These are all the reasons why they are such dogs on the used car market. They were beautifully made cars, especially the early ones (rumor has it Benz didn't make much money on them due to the materials costs), but the necessary (and unnecessary) electronics fail regularly. The leasing thing produced a rash of junk high dollar vehicles because they are tax write-offs, and hence have no value once the tax deductions are taken. Leasing is stupid if you actually use a car, it's vastly more expensive than purchase/resale, but if you aren't paying for it, who cares, right? Problem is the aftermaket gets flooded with very expensive to maintain and repair (and replacing the engine electronics isn't maintenance in my book, changing oil is!) automobiles that no one can afford unless they are new and being leased. The Europeans aren't as excited about fancy electronics, or didn't used to be, the main reason why Benz didn't have electric seats until the W126. Just another expensive (and basically unneeded) thing to break sooner than it should. I hope the era of disposable cars that everyone loves to show off how much money they are spending to keep running is over! Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 7:51 PM, E M wrote: Good points. You have to remember to when this car hit the scene, many ppl enjoyed bragging about how much they would spend for a service. :-) Todays climate, we are more likely to complain about it. :-) 126 was and still is a great car that mercedes got a LOT of years out of. I think they wanted a big push forward with the 140, and the car was not made or designed on the cheap! The car was very complicated, and the more stuff you have, the more there is to fail. Look at the recent threads on locks and tumblers. I don't hear anyone saying, oh the tumblers in 124 or 123 are junk. They're older, they fail, Add 5 times the number of parts, 5 times more parts to fail. After test driving a 140, it made the S that followed look like it was build down to a price, and I'm pretty sure it was. I also think leasing now plays a much larger part in the lack of long term maintance some of these higher end cars receive. I think there's a mind set as to how many treat cars when they bring them home new, and they know it won't still be sitting in their driveway 400,000 miles later. Drive the crap out of it, it only has to last 3-4 years. It shows too when they go to auction after a few owners. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the problem with the 140 was that it followed the 126, people where used to the good old reliable but technologically challenged 126. When judging a particular chassis I feel that it is important not to compare it with previous Merc models but with what the competitors such as BMW, RR, etc, where serving up at the time. E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
I think mercedes like any company is happy to sell you as little for as much as they can. :-) They would still sell S Classes with non electric seats today if they could get away with it. Of course, Porsche have this down to a fine science. They charge you extra for less car. :-) They call them light weights and even make you wait in line for them, which ppl seem to be happy to do. The era of high maintance cars may be over, but the ere of disposible cars is just getting into full swing! A number of new cars already have their parts stamped for easy sorting when they go into the compost bin. Then again, high maintance may not be dead just yet. You show me where the plugs are on an SL65 and tell me you'd change them for less than $300+parts! :-) Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are all the reasons why they are such dogs on the used car market. They were beautifully made cars, especially the early ones (rumor has it Benz didn't make much money on them due to the materials costs), but the necessary (and unnecessary) electronics fail regularly. The leasing thing produced a rash of junk high dollar vehicles because they are tax write-offs, and hence have no value once the tax deductions are taken. Leasing is stupid if you actually use a car, it's vastly more expensive than purchase/resale, but if you aren't paying for it, who cares, right? Problem is the aftermaket gets flooded with very expensive to maintain and repair (and replacing the engine electronics isn't maintenance in my book, changing oil is!) automobiles that no one can afford unless they are new and being leased. The Europeans aren't as excited about fancy electronics, or didn't used to be, the main reason why Benz didn't have electric seats until the W126. Just another expensive (and basically unneeded) thing to break sooner than it should. I hope the era of disposable cars that everyone loves to show off how much money they are spending to keep running is over! Peter On Aug 12, 2007, at 7:51 PM, E M wrote: Good points. You have to remember to when this car hit the scene, many ppl enjoyed bragging about how much they would spend for a service. :-) Todays climate, we are more likely to complain about it. :-) 126 was and still is a great car that mercedes got a LOT of years out of. I think they wanted a big push forward with the 140, and the car was not made or designed on the cheap! The car was very complicated, and the more stuff you have, the more there is to fail. Look at the recent threads on locks and tumblers. I don't hear anyone saying, oh the tumblers in 124 or 123 are junk. They're older, they fail, Add 5 times the number of parts, 5 times more parts to fail. After test driving a 140, it made the S that followed look like it was build down to a price, and I'm pretty sure it was. I also think leasing now plays a much larger part in the lack of long term maintance some of these higher end cars receive. I think there's a mind set as to how many treat cars when they bring them home new, and they know it won't still be sitting in their driveway 400,000 miles later. Drive the crap out of it, it only has to last 3-4 years. It shows too when they go to auction after a few owners. Ed 300E On 12/08/07, Hendrik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the problem with the 140 was that it followed the 126, people where used to the good old reliable but technologically challenged 126. When judging a particular chassis I feel that it is important not to compare it with previous Merc models but with what the competitors such as BMW, RR, etc, where serving up at the time. E M wrote: Geez, you guys are really down on W140s. I know it has a lot of systems and not the most reasonable car to own, but I don't think mercedes ever intended it to be an econo box. I think as far as sedans go, it was one of those concorde moments. People look at the cost to run and service it and forget just what it was at the time. All the little things, like a big sedan that would go like stink and still handle great. The US market wasn't keen on the idea of changing tires so often as they thought they should last as long on an S as they do on their Ford, so the tires were dumbed down to last longer, and then ppl complained about the tire noise. ha ha ha. The market just isnt' there for these cars, much like the unappreciated porsche 928. But bring me all the $1000 S500s you can find! :-) I think they are great cars that are worth preserving and enjoying. Ed 300E ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] $8500 POS
There's a low rent dealer near me selling an S500, dealer maintained, super clean, FLOOD TITLE, for $8500. I bet the electrics start failing before they manage to sell it. Holy cats. A 140, 200K miles AND it's been wet. Move the decimal point two places left. RLE ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
