Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Gary wrote we will always have guns :) You're right about that! ;-) Let's hope tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum don't try to come up with a way to take them away from us - Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] larry, as much as we might disagree about the president, we will always have guns :) On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:26 PM, LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the govt refused to allow pilots a $500 handgun. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] Thanks Royce. As one mother of a trader killed in the North Tower said my son died because American Airlines thought a $1500 armored door was too expensive. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Craig wrote: It is truly audacious of the Democrats to entice us with their slick-tongued messiah, one who appears out of nowhere and graciously offers to scrape clean and sanitize the same plate of defeat he, his party and their assistants in the media served to America for nearly eight years in the middle of a war. Soon we will see if a majority of the American electorate accepts that offer, or if it rejects it, sending the Democratic Party back to confront the same irrelevance it risked the safety and security of our nation to avoid. Thank you for the links to these stories. We will not convince those on the list who love to hate President Bush, but perhaps some others will see the light. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
i would love to like president bush, but he sure isn't helping me out much. On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Donald Snook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig wrote: It is truly audacious of the Democrats to entice us with their slick-tongued messiah, one who appears out of nowhere and graciously offers to scrape clean and sanitize the same plate of defeat he, his party and their assistants in the media served to America for nearly eight years in the middle of a war. Soon we will see if a majority of the American electorate accepts that offer, or if it rejects it, sending the Democratic Party back to confront the same irrelevance it risked the safety and security of our nation to avoid. Thank you for the links to these stories. We will not convince those on the list who love to hate President Bush, but perhaps some others will see the light. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
I finally figured out what some of you Bush haters on this list reminded me of. My Mother had Alzheimer's disease I suppose. In the last year or so of her life she would angrily approach a family member and accuse them of stealing her teeth, while all the time her teeth were in her mouth. She would not back down and would not listen to facts, in her mind, she knew someone had her teeth and to her that was the end of the story. I thought about leaving the list, then there was an interesting MB post and decided instead to increase my personal banned list from two to six. Harry On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i would love to like president bush, but he sure isn't helping me out much. On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:27 AM, Donald Snook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig wrote: It is truly audacious of the Democrats to entice us with their slick-tongued messiah, one who appears out of nowhere and graciously offers to scrape clean and sanitize the same plate of defeat he, his party and their assistants in the media served to America for nearly eight years in the middle of a war. Soon we will see if a majority of the American electorate accepts that offer, or if it rejects it, sending the Democratic Party back to confront the same irrelevance it risked the safety and security of our nation to avoid. Thank you for the links to these stories. We will not convince those on the list who love to hate President Bush, but perhaps some others will see the light. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Craig McCluskey wrote: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/08/AR2008060801687.html Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), chairman of the Select Committee on Intelligence, set out to provide the official foundation for what has become not only a thriving business but, more important, an article of faith among millions of Americans. And in releasing a committee report Thursday, he claimed to have accomplished his mission, though he did not use the L-word. http://intelligence.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=298775 The Committee’s report cites several conclusions in which the Administration’s public statements were NOT supported by the intelligence. They include: Ø Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa’ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa’ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence. Ø Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information. Ø Statements by President Bush and Vice President Cheney regarding the postwar situation in Iraq, in terms of the political, security, and economic, did not reflect the concerns and uncertainties expressed in the intelligence products. Ø Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing. Ø The Secretary of Defense’s statement that the Iraqi government operated underground WMD facilities that were not vulnerable to conventional airstrikes because they were underground and deeply buried was not substantiated by available intelligence information. Ø The Intelligence Community did not confirm that Muhammad Atta met an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague in 2001 as the Vice President repeatedly claimed. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
No, Donald. I would actually love to like and respect every US President. It has not been something I could accomplish this time, though. Personally I'd propose that rather than continue what has become a national pastime of division and separation toward 'sides' we just wait until the election and allow whichever side to do their 'I told you so' and then try to support our country as much as we can, and continue to work against those parts we see as wrong. I will if you will. Actually, I think I will no mater what. Articles such as the one quoted scare me almost more than Bush. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Donald Snook Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:27 AM To: 'mercedes@okiebenz.com' Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] Craig wrote: It is truly audacious of the Democrats to entice us with their slick-tongued messiah, one who appears out of nowhere and graciously offers to scrape clean and sanitize the same plate of defeat he, his party and their assistants in the media served to America for nearly eight years in the middle of a war. Soon we will see if a majority of the American electorate accepts that offer, or if it rejects it, sending the Democratic Party back to confront the same irrelevance it risked the safety and security of our nation to avoid. Thank you for the links to these stories. We will not convince those on the list who love to hate President Bush, but perhaps some others will see the light. Donald H. Snook ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
My thoughts on the invasion of Iraq are simple. Saddam Hussien was trading oil in Euros. The American dollar is THE currency that oil is traded in, which makes it the WORLDS reserve currency. With Iraq selling oil in Euros, the threat of more OPEC members switching to the Euro and other currencies was immenent. We HAD to take him out or risk economic collapse. Iran has been planning an oil bourse (exchange) for several years now, to trade oil in Euros. Hence, all the sabre rattling against Iran currently. It has nothing to do with WMD or nukes or whatever. The Powers That Be probably figure the American people aren't smart enough to support a war based on this premise, so they came up with the wmd excuse for Iraq and the expanding nuclear program for Iran. No matter what figurehead/cheerleader resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, we will not be leaving Iraq anytime soon. Money makes the world go 'round. A speach by Ron Paul. http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul303.html A Wiki on Irans Oil Bourse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Oil_Bourse A Wiki on Petrodollar warfare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_Warfare YMMV My 2¢ Rick Knoble '85 300 CD '87 190 DT ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Rick Knoble wrote: We HAD to take him out or risk economic collapse. I don't think that worked out too well. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Perhaps not little Hitlers but incompetent fools who shoot first and ask question later. Basically I guess they where told what they wanted to hear, who told them is anyones guess. The Israeli secret service? An insider in Iraq on the CIA payroll? Or maybe it was just made up out of an uneducated guess, with the attitude that once it starts it can't be stopped. Anyway hopefully in the near future there will be a Democratic President in the white house and a lot of those hawks will be put out to pasture. Hendrik LarryT wrote: You do know there *were* WMDs in Iraq? Poison weapons by the thousands and a proven track record of using them against his own people.The nuke story came from hussien - he wanted to world to *think* he was on a nuclear building program - especially in the arab world who are pretty each to fool - the fact the western worlds so-called intelligence failed (once again) is no reason to paint the whole administration as little hitlers. You've accepted too much of the lefts propaganda without questioning it. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Steve MacSween wrote: And forget using the word fire, unless you have a compelling reason to argue why this was the first steel-framed building in history to COLLAPSE from fire damage, and not even an engulfing fire at that. The first steel-framed building in history - where do you get that? You seem to think there's something unique about that. It's not. Somewhere I've got a picture of a burned out barn with steel beams drooped over a wooden beam. The wooden beam retained some measure of its strength, holding itself and the steel beams up. The steel beams drooped like spaghetti under their own weight when they got hot. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
I'm not sure if it's still true but I've seen them spraying asbestoses (!) on structural steel beams in large buildings to prevent collapse in fire. Pete -- Original message -- From: Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve MacSween wrote: And forget using the word fire, unless you have a compelling reason to argue why this was the first steel-framed building in history to COLLAPSE from fire damage, and not even an engulfing fire at that. The first steel-framed building in history - where do you get that? You seem to think there's something unique about that. It's not. Somewhere I've got a picture of a burned out barn with steel beams drooped over a wooden beam. The wooden beam retained some measure of its strength, holding itself and the steel beams up. The steel beams drooped like spaghetti under their own weight when they got hot. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Mitch Haley wrote: Somewhere I've got a picture of a burned out barn with steel beams drooped over a wooden beam. http://www.softwood.org/AITC_eVersion/EN/p3.htm ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
It's common to coat steel with a mixture of fire retardent materials during construction - in refineries it's code to protect stee up to a certain elevation - 10 perhaps - it;s been a long time since I was involved in that. They spray it on with a air powered gun and it dries in place. Perhaps it's code to protect steel in high-rise buildings? The key though it fire retardent - not fire proof - nothing is fireproof forever given the right circumstances. In refineries it;s intended to allow time for personel to escape and to vent some lines carrying even more explosive/flammable materials near the fire. As mentioned, the steel will sag initially as it melts - then the bolts give way and the weight brings everything down. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 7:10 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] I'm not sure if it's still true but I've seen them spraying asbestoses (!) on structural steel beams in large buildings to prevent collapse in fire. Pete -- Original message -- From: Mitch Haley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve MacSween wrote: And forget using the word fire, unless you have a compelling reason to argue why this was the first steel-framed building in history to COLLAPSE from fire damage, and not even an engulfing fire at that. The first steel-framed building in history - where do you get that? You seem to think there's something unique about that. It's not. Somewhere I've got a picture of a burned out barn with steel beams drooped over a wooden beam. The wooden beam retained some measure of its strength, holding itself and the steel beams up. The steel beams drooped like spaghetti under their own weight when they got hot. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Mitch Haley wrote: Somewhere I've got a picture of a burned out barn with steel beams drooped over a wooden beam. If you read the article that Mitch referenced, you'll see further down the difference between a glue-lam wooden composite beam and a steel beam...making the point that steel can and does fail before some wood structures. I did some googling and found the following excellent discussion by a fire department expert. Based on my somewhat limited knowledge of structural engineering (I'm a petroleum engineer by training, but I had to take all the same core courses as the structural guys, and I my Dad was a structural engineer), this guy knows what he is talking about. One of his points is that the steel trusses were the weak points, and all fire departments know that. Once one part of a truss fails, the rest of the truss can fail quickly as undamaged parts have to pick up the loads of other parts that failed. He also mentions the problems with failed insulation on the steel, I have seen mentioned several times in discussions about WTC. Of course, that was partially due to issues with asbestos, and you can just imagine the restrictions in NYC for dealing with asbestos. Bottom line, I'm tired of hearing about conspiracies other than the one where 19 terrorists climbed on board undefended airliners, slit the throats of women, and bravely drove those planes into buildings that housed over 3000 civilians. As an aside...we're visiting in-laws in Oklahoma City and yesterday went to the site of the 1995 bombing. I'm sorry they executed Tim McVeighI would rather they caged him up and kept him at the site so people could kick his ass. Royce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
The heat from the fire will cause steel beams to expand. Two things can happen, first the expansion can cause walls to be pushed outward and fall. Second, after the fire, beams can contract as they cool and fall within the supports that got pushed outward, so, be careful during mop up. This was taught in firefighting training I had many years ago and I suspect better building methods are used now days. Any of you engineer types have a way to find out how much expansion a 100 foot beam could generated in a building fire? The answer was part of the training but I can't recall. Harry On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Royce Engler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mitch Haley wrote: Somewhere I've got a picture of a burned out barn with steel beams drooped over a wooden beam. If you read the article that Mitch referenced, you'll see further down the difference between a glue-lam wooden composite beam and a steel beam...making the point that steel can and does fail before some wood structures. I did some googling and found the following excellent discussion by a fire department expert. Based on my somewhat limited knowledge of structural engineering (I'm a petroleum engineer by training, but I had to take all the same core courses as the structural guys, and I my Dad was a structural engineer), this guy knows what he is talking about. One of his points is that the steel trusses were the weak points, and all fire departments know that. Once one part of a truss fails, the rest of the truss can fail quickly as undamaged parts have to pick up the loads of other parts that failed. He also mentions the problems with failed insulation on the steel, I have seen mentioned several times in discussions about WTC. Of course, that was partially due to issues with asbestos, and you can just imagine the restrictions in NYC for dealing with asbestos. Bottom line, I'm tired of hearing about conspiracies other than the one where 19 terrorists climbed on board undefended airliners, slit the throats of women, and bravely drove those planes into buildings that housed over 3000 civilians. As an aside...we're visiting in-laws in Oklahoma City and yesterday went to the site of the 1995 bombing. I'm sorry they executed Tim McVeighI would rather they caged him up and kept him at the site so people could kick his ass. Royce ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
I was joking, we are discussing the conspiracy theory that says someone deliberately blew up a perfectly good building, right? The extent of damage is rather difficult to estimate -- the building had been evacuated when the towers came down, as had all the adjacent ones, and between the debris, fire, and lack of water pressure, and lack of manpower, no systematic examination was preformed (duh!), and when things had settled down a bit, it was obvious to the fire chief that the building was collapsing and he cleared the area. The failure is probably due to the very large gash down the front AND the burning diesel fuel, stored well above ground because the building was built OVER a ConEd substation. This resulted is an unusual design, with the vertical supports each holding up 2000 sq ft. per floor, rather high if not unprecedented. It appear that the gash in the front facade contained one of these columns, and the failure proceeded upwards to the East utility penthouse. This is visible on some video. The fire chief evacuated the area when the west side of the building began to visibly bulge and start shedding glass, and the building collapsed shortly afterward as the failure propagated along floors 5 and 7, both much heavier than the other floors. There were several fairly intense fires generating very large amounts of black smoke, typical of fuel fires, and the fuel tanks were reported to be breached and possibly burning by the fire crews before they evacuated early in the event, so yes, fire did have a lot to do with the ultimate failure -- steel looses strength long before it gets red hot, and to my amateur eye, there was insufficient redundancy in the structure to survive loss of a single vertical column, and it's likely there was more damage not visible. The building that ended up with a giant spear of outer structure from the towers (DuetscheBank? I don't remember) did not catch fire, but was demolished if I remember correctly due to non-repairable damage. Deliberate demolition does not consist of sticking a chunk of explosive on a few structural elements and smacking the detonator -- the building is deliberately weakend so that it is quite unstable and unable to stand, and the explosives are used only to trigger a controlled collapse. The objective, of course, is to drop the center of the building first, and land the outer walls on the debris to trap it and contain the rubble. Those buildings are NOT safe to enter, and every once in a while don't implode exactly right. I don't know of any offhand that have fallen prematurely, but it's not an amateur's occupation, those guys are all structural engineers, and good ones. No building that can be imploded by a small amount of explosive will stand for long, especially full of furniture, people, and moving elevators. The notion that someone deliberately imploded the building is non- sense -- doesn't look like anything but an unplanned collapse to me. No central collapse, it went pretty much straight down and made a much larger mess than it if has been planned. Besides, no one implodes buildings in the center of a major city, they take them apart instead. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 10:41 PM, Steve MacSween wrote: Which explains why it collapsed on September 11? Mac on 6/29/08 23:25, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, missed that. Seven? I would suspect it was filled with asbestos and concrete dust, had the windows blown in, the air conditions smashed, and was generally battered around enough that it would be cheaper to replace than refurbish. Most of the buildings in the immediate vicinity suffered considerable damage. And it was the Port Authority's building. Maybe they wanted all new, who knows? Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Steve MacSween wrote: on 6/29/08 23:13, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The combustion of 40,000 gallons of aviation fuel, along with the design of the building and the impact damage did them in. I said WTC SEVEN. It was not hit by ANYTHING. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Yeah, that's one of the problems with the WTC -- that coating is not strong enough to withstand an air/diesel fuel explosion, so likely there wasn't much heat protection, quite aside from the asbestos. Turns out to be fairly difficult to get a coating that's insulating enough and hard enough at the same time! I think foamed concrete is more likely today than asbestos, but it's still fragile. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Thanks Royce. As one mother of a trader killed in the North Tower said my son died because American Airlines thought a $1500 armored door was too expensive. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Peter Frederick wrote: Thanks Royce. As one mother of a trader killed in the North Tower said my son died because American Airlines thought a $1500 armored door was too expensive. Nope. Because pilots would have thought the stewardesses and passengers getting their throats slit would be too expensive. S.O.P. was to cooperate and hope they didn't kill anybody, or hope they didn't kill as many. Funny how cooperate with your murderer is no longer considered the proper course of action on an airplane, but it's still what the media and the government tell us to do everywhere else. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:13:04 -0500 Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, that's one of the problems with the WTC -- that coating is not strong enough to withstand an air/diesel fuel explosion, so likely there wasn't much heat protection, quite aside from the asbestos. Turns out to be fairly difficult to get a coating that's insulating enough and hard enough at the same time! And not only that, the people who were building the WTC were forced to change the formulation of the fire-proofing about half-way up because of environmental considerations (i.e., they could not use asbestos). Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Probably didn't make any difference. The asbestos containing insulation isn't that much better at slowing heat transfer, and that's the real problem. After 45 minutes of roasting, the structure failed, most likely due to a combination of differential thermal expansion ripping the floor beams off their attachments and overloading the floors below and pushing/pulling the exterior walls out of vertical enough to fail them. The only real design failure/construction failure was using drywall instead of poured concrete for the stairs. If that had been done, far fewer people would have been trapped up top by impassable stairwells. The stairwells are too small, too, but that was code, not something easily changed. Peter On Jun 30, 2008, at 9:31 PM, Craig McCluskey wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:13:04 -0500 Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, that's one of the problems with the WTC -- that coating is not strong enough to withstand an air/diesel fuel explosion, so likely there wasn't much heat protection, quite aside from the asbestos. Turns out to be fairly difficult to get a coating that's insulating enough and hard enough at the same time! And not only that, the people who were building the WTC were forced to change the formulation of the fire-proofing about half-way up because of environmental considerations (i.e., they could not use asbestos). Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
and the govt refused to allow pilots a $500 handgun. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] Thanks Royce. As one mother of a trader killed in the North Tower said my son died because American Airlines thought a $1500 armored door was too expensive. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
larry, as much as we might disagree about the president, we will always have guns :) On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 11:26 PM, LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the govt refused to allow pilots a $500 handgun. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] Thanks Royce. As one mother of a trader killed in the North Tower said my son died because American Airlines thought a $1500 armored door was too expensive. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
i think we have to draw out a time line here. as i said, i thought it was just common knowledge that this was no external terrorist attack, but it appears now. i don't think your government has any problems with entering into large conspiracies that kills thousands of americans. i mean, what else is this iraq war if not that. but now you challenge me to do research, so we see is it's such total nonsense or not to think this guy was a participant in 9/11 On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 7:27 PM, LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
However, I have no doubt that the total lack of communication between our intelligence agencies, and even within them, was a major contributing factor to the success of the terrorist's operation, thus the incompetence - and responsibility goes all the way to the top. I heard about the first tower on the news, called my daughter in NYC. She went to the roof of her apartment building, and photographed the second tower. Too close! http://www.pixelpress.org/september11/sept11_index.html, click the second picture on the fourth row. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 6:27 PM, LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T -- OK Don, KD5NRO Norman, OK There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. -Benjamin Disraeli and/or Mark Twain '90 300D (Rattled), '92 300D (Saber), ' '81 240D (Gramps), '97 Ply Grand Voyager (Vincent van-go) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
There was never any question that there were at least two shooters in the JFK assassination, and that Oswald was probably not one of them, at lest not one who actually hit him. Johnson pretty much ordered the Warren Commission to find that Oswald was the only shooter and that there was no Mob or foreign (specifically Russian) involvement in spite of the fact that all evidence pointed to at least three shooters, one in front who actually killed JFK. We were in the middle of one of the hotter parts of the Cold War and he was greatly concerned about a nuclear war with the USSR, and while I can understand his position, I cannot and will never condone telling bald-faced lies to the public no matter what the circumstances. The investigation was so badly handled (and Hoover very likely involved in any conspiracy to assassinate the president anyway, so there's that to taint it as well) that we will never know. Certainly, no properly handled trial could ever convict Oswald, even if he did do it, as all the evidence was snatched up by the FBI without proper documentation. Not admissible. On top of the fact that there is a fairly good photograph on him watching the motorcade going past... As far as 9/11 goes, the ineptitude of the Bush administration is only second to the corruption of that crew, and I suspect they mostly have no morals at all. Wouldn't surprise me at all that they purposely overlooked information available in order to take advantage of it. Might not be ol' Shrub himself, but certainly I can see Rove or Cheny doing it. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 5:59 PM, Alex Chamberlain wrote: On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Peter Frederick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was never any question that there were at least two shooters in the JFK assassination, and that Oswald was probably not one of them, at lest not one who actually hit him. Johnson pretty much ordered the Warren Commission to find that Oswald was the only shooter and that there was no Mob or foreign (specifically Russian) involvement in spite of the fact that all evidence pointed to at least three shooters, one in front who actually killed JFK. We were in the middle of one of the hotter parts of the Cold War and he was greatly concerned about a nuclear war with the USSR, and while I can understand his position, I cannot and will never condone telling bald-faced lies to the public no matter what the circumstances. The investigation was so badly handled (and Hoover very likely involved in any conspiracy to assassinate the president anyway, so there's that to taint it as well) that we will never know. Certainly, no properly handled trial could ever convict Oswald, even if he did do it, as all the evidence was snatched up by the FBI without proper documentation. Not admissible. On top of the fact that there is a fairly good photograph on him watching the motorcade going past... As far as 9/11 goes, the ineptitude of the Bush administration is only second to the corruption of that crew, and I suspect they mostly have no morals at all. Wouldn't surprise me at all that they purposely overlooked information available in order to take advantage of it. Might not be ol' Shrub himself, but certainly I can see Rove or Cheny doing it. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 5:59 PM, Alex Chamberlain wrote: On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
i am a lifelong republican, but this guy seems absolutely capable of anything. an absolutely amoral maniac who has hoodwinked america's christians into putting him into power. if anyone has poisoned my mind, it's been dubya and his crew. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Now Craig, be patient, he;s presenting his evidence. I think it was i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. Looks like incontrovertible evidence to me. That';s the kind of thing Dems do - throw somethng out at a press conference and say, The charges are so serious we *must* investigate! Nevermond there's no proof - just acccusation. Hmm.. wonder where I put my tin foil hat? Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
You do know there *were* WMDs in Iraq? Poison weapons by the thousands and a proven track record of using them against his own people.The nuke story came from hussien - he wanted to world to *think* he was on a nuclear building program - especially in the arab world who are pretty each to fool - the fact the western worlds so-called intelligence failed (once again) is no reason to paint the whole administration as little hitlers. You've accepted too much of the lefts propaganda without questioning it. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] i am a lifelong republican, but this guy seems absolutely capable of anything. an absolutely amoral maniac who has hoodwinked america's christians into putting him into power. if anyone has poisoned my mind, it's been dubya and his crew. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
that's not evidence, but a sad fact On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:38 PM, LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now Craig, be patient, he;s presenting his evidence. I think it was i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. Looks like incontrovertible evidence to me. That';s the kind of thing Dems do - throw somethng out at a press conference and say, The charges are so serious we *must* investigate! Nevermond there's no proof - just acccusation. Hmm.. wonder where I put my tin foil hat? Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
What he said. I'm pleased the government [at least the military] is owning up to how messed up the war in Iraq has been, but that will never make up for the malignant stupidity that got us there. WTC might have been the best political thing that ever happened to GWB, but no matter how much I dislike his administration I won't put that one on him. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
what did iraq have to do with these alleged terrorists? who are we liberating when we have destroyed the tyrant and his armies yet still have keep fighting the populace every day? how is this war won other than by killing every resident of iraq? why iraq and not, say, north korea? what exactly are we trying to get done at this point other than to occupy and oppress a once sovereign nation? the left loves this war as much as the fake neo con radio right. everyone is making money on it, i suppose. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:42 PM, LarryT [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You do know there *were* WMDs in Iraq? Poison weapons by the thousands and a proven track record of using them against his own people.The nuke story came from hussien - he wanted to world to *think* he was on a nuclear building program - especially in the arab world who are pretty each to fool - the fact the western worlds so-called intelligence failed (once again) is no reason to paint the whole administration as little hitlers. You've accepted too much of the lefts propaganda without questioning it. Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net 800-583-8601 Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs - Original Message - From: Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] i am a lifelong republican, but this guy seems absolutely capable of anything. an absolutely amoral maniac who has hoodwinked america's christians into putting him into power. if anyone has poisoned my mind, it's been dubya and his crew. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
would you put it past him? why wouldn't the group that manufactured iraq also be capable of producing wtc? On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Bill R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What he said. I'm pleased the government [at least the military] is owning up to how messed up the war in Iraq has been, but that will never make up for the malignant stupidity that got us there. WTC might have been the best political thing that ever happened to GWB, but no matter how much I dislike his administration I won't put that one on him. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could behave in a way no bullet had done before or has since. Like Sherlock Holmes said, when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
I am sure there are those in most any administration whose loyalty is not to Truth, Justice, and the American Way, but to the party/people who they believe will make the country better or stronger or make them more money [take you pick - it's probably a mixture anyway]. Those are the really dangerous ones. The zealots always are, because they are convinced they are doing the equivalent of 'God's work' and any damage done is excusable, be they terrorists with a bomb strapped to themselves or political terrorists who plan political campaigns or military commanders who dont take proper care to keep ordinance out of civilian areas. Would I say that is too much for GWB to have done? Yes, I would. Some misguided political zealots [other than the 9/11 terrorists], possibly. Perhaps I am guilty of some naiveté here, but if so I'll be one of those who lives more happily because of it. I could not begin to counter such as you posit because I am not willing to do what it would take to get that done. For me to live with some basic trust of people is necessary for my life, though it has had a cost. I suppose that like so many problems it comes down to greed. Greed for power, for influence, for position or for financial gain, or even to be 'right' more than others. I doubt we will agree on this stuff Gary, because you can see conspiracy in all the places it could possibly be, and I'm just not willing to work that hard. The curse of being a moderate, I guess, and probably of having spent a lot of years dealing with various local emergencies/crisis that were not any different from normal life except for some individual's hyper-focus on it. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Hurst Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:51 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] would you put it past him? why wouldn't the group that manufactured iraq also be capable of producing wtc? On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Bill R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What he said. I'm pleased the government [at least the military] is owning up to how messed up the war in Iraq has been, but that will never make up for the malignant stupidity that got us there. WTC might have been the best political thing that ever happened to GWB, but no matter how much I dislike his administration I won't put that one on him. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires more assumptions. Consider JFK's assassination. It is a simpler explanation that there was a second shooter and therefore a cover-up of some kind than that the laws of physics were temporarily suspended so that the shots Oswald fired could
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
on 6/29/08 18:59, Alex Chamberlain at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. Okay, someone -- preferably someone who believes the conclusions of the 9/11 Commission Report -- explain WTC 7 to me. And forget using the word fire, unless you have a compelling reason to argue why this was the first steel-framed building in history to COLLAPSE from fire damage, and not even an engulfing fire at that. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
i guess after being lied to so much, i am overly suspicious of my leaders. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Bill R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sure there are those in most any administration whose loyalty is not to Truth, Justice, and the American Way, but to the party/people who they believe will make the country better or stronger or make them more money [take you pick - it's probably a mixture anyway]. Those are the really dangerous ones. The zealots always are, because they are convinced they are doing the equivalent of 'God's work' and any damage done is excusable, be they terrorists with a bomb strapped to themselves or political terrorists who plan political campaigns or military commanders who don't take proper care to keep ordinance out of civilian areas. Would I say that is too much for GWB to have done? Yes, I would. Some misguided political zealots [other than the 9/11 terrorists], possibly. Perhaps I am guilty of some naiveté here, but if so I'll be one of those who lives more happily because of it. I could not begin to counter such as you posit because I am not willing to do what it would take to get that done. For me to live with some basic trust of people is necessary for my life, though it has had a cost. I suppose that like so many problems it comes down to greed. Greed for power, for influence, for position or for financial gain, or even to be 'right' more than others. I doubt we will agree on this stuff Gary, because you can see conspiracy in all the places it could possibly be, and I'm just not willing to work that hard. The curse of being a moderate, I guess, and probably of having spent a lot of years dealing with various local emergencies/crisis that were not any different from normal life except for some individual's hyper-focus on it. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Hurst Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:51 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] would you put it past him? why wouldn't the group that manufactured iraq also be capable of producing wtc? On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Bill R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What he said. I'm pleased the government [at least the military] is owning up to how messed up the war in Iraq has been, but that will never make up for the malignant stupidity that got us there. WTC might have been the best political thing that ever happened to GWB, but no matter how much I dislike his administration I won't put that one on him. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. I'm not saying that sometimes conspiracy theorists aren't in fact correct in their reasoning even though their explanation may at first appear to be the one that is more complex and requires
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
It's reflective of the man's character. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 7:52 PM, Craig McCluskey wrote: On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
The combustion of 40,000 gallons of aviation fuel, along with the design of the building and the impact damage did them in. In fact, the buildings preformed quite well, considering they were designed to withstand the impact of a fully loaded 707, a much smaller plane. Should have ben designed for a 747, because they were flying then, but the design was old before construction started (no one wanted them, and in fact they were owned by the Port Authority, a government agency, because no one could figure out a way to make them profitable). Those towers stood for HOURS with a big chunk of the main structural element broken and a major heat event going on inside. Aviation fuel burns hot -- it wasn't just the contents as would be the case in a more normal building fire, although there was plenty of combustible material in there. I don't think any current building would have stood indefinitely under those conditions -- a major failure in the main structural member (the outside skin) and steel softening heat. There were problems -- if the stairwells had been concrete instead of 4 drywall, likely nearly everyone would have gotten out, and the death toll would have been even lower that the 3500 or so it is. Remember, on a busy morning there are usually 50,000 or so people in those two towers, for more than 90% of the typical occupants to have escaped is astonishing. The buildings would still have come down, I don't think you can build one that will withstand that kind of damage, even government owned. Fire was indeed the major cause of the collapse, the last I heard. No steel structure that I know of has ever had an entire plane load of fuel burned inside it AFTER sustaining serious structural damage. You cannot build a building that will NOT collapse once one floor goes, there wouldn't be enough room inside to rent! The fire, along with fairly fragile fire resistant coatings, heated the floor beams and attaching bolts until they sagged and the bolts failed. Eventually the load of collapsed flooring exceeded the strength of the exterior walls, the man structural element in the building, and a catastrophic failure and progressive collapse ensued. Watch the videos of the collapse carefully, and you will see the exterior wall begin to explode outward, then the building come down. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:39 PM, Steve MacSween wrote: on 6/29/08 18:59, Alex Chamberlain at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch planned and carried out that kind of deception on such a massive scale. Okay, someone -- preferably someone who believes the conclusions of the 9/11 Commission Report -- explain WTC 7 to me. And forget using the word fire, unless you have a compelling reason to argue why this was the first steel-framed building in history to COLLAPSE from fire damage, and not even an engulfing fire at that. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Can't argue with that one at all. I expect to be lied to. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Hurst Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 10:52 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] i guess after being lied to so much, i am overly suspicious of my leaders. On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Bill R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sure there are those in most any administration whose loyalty is not to Truth, Justice, and the American Way, but to the party/people who they believe will make the country better or stronger or make them more money [take you pick - it's probably a mixture anyway]. Those are the really dangerous ones. The zealots always are, because they are convinced they are doing the equivalent of 'God's work' and any damage done is excusable, be they terrorists with a bomb strapped to themselves or political terrorists who plan political campaigns or military commanders who don't take proper care to keep ordinance out of civilian areas. Would I say that is too much for GWB to have done? Yes, I would. Some misguided political zealots [other than the 9/11 terrorists], possibly. Perhaps I am guilty of some naiveté here, but if so I'll be one of those who lives more happily because of it. I could not begin to counter such as you posit because I am not willing to do what it would take to get that done. For me to live with some basic trust of people is necessary for my life, though it has had a cost. I suppose that like so many problems it comes down to greed. Greed for power, for influence, for position or for financial gain, or even to be 'right' more than others. I doubt we will agree on this stuff Gary, because you can see conspiracy in all the places it could possibly be, and I'm just not willing to work that hard. The curse of being a moderate, I guess, and probably of having spent a lot of years dealing with various local emergencies/crisis that were not any different from normal life except for some individual's hyper-focus on it. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Hurst Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:51 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] would you put it past him? why wouldn't the group that manufactured iraq also be capable of producing wtc? On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Bill R [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What he said. I'm pleased the government [at least the military] is owning up to how messed up the war in Iraq has been, but that will never make up for the malignant stupidity that got us there. WTC might have been the best political thing that ever happened to GWB, but no matter how much I dislike his administration I won't put that one on him. BillR -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 7:27 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] You wrote it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent The idea there was any conspiracy among a dozen or more govt agencies to kill thousands of Americans destroy the WTC and Pentagon is beyond reasonable belief. Those of us who watched in on TV will never forget the sight. I have a hard time believing there was any incompetence. The 1st 2 planes hit within a few minutes of each other not allowing enough time for anyone to do anything. The 3rd plane hit the Pa. farmland shortly later and the 4th was in the crosshairs of fighterplanes for its short flight time remaining. That the President and others who had to make the choice to shoot them down or not shoot them down seems like a normal hesitance hoping against hope we would not be pushed into killing 200+ of our own people by terrorists. I'm not a fan of GWB but some things are just plain silly. Larry T - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB] On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the story is kind of silly. either we conclude that our president and everyone around him, as well as the entire air defense system, is completely inept or retarded or we conclude that it was an inside job. which works best for you? This is the weakness in Occam's razor, isn't it? Other things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best, but what's your definition of simplest? For me it is easier to accept that the president and much of the federal government are totally incompetent than that shadow forces of some kind within the executive branch
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Isn't there a saying about being judged by the people you choose to surround yourself with? Cheney Rove Wolfowitz Perle Bolton And a small army of neo-con think-tank policy wonks. Mac on 6/29/08 22:56, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's reflective of the man's character. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 7:52 PM, Craig McCluskey wrote: On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
on 6/29/08 23:13, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The combustion of 40,000 gallons of aviation fuel, along with the design of the building and the impact damage did them in. I said WTC SEVEN. It was not hit by ANYTHING. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Most of whom were in the other shining example of Republican veracity, the Nixon Administration. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Steve MacSween wrote: Isn't there a saying about being judged by the people you choose to surround yourself with? Cheney Rove Wolfowitz Perle Bolton And a small army of neo-con think-tank policy wonks. Mac on 6/29/08 22:56, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's reflective of the man's character. Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 7:52 PM, Craig McCluskey wrote: On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:40:56 -0400 Gary Hurst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think the fact that we wouldn't put it past him to have something to do with 9/11 is pretty damning in itself. No, I think it's reflective of your mind being poisoned by the virulent Bush-haters of the left. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Sorry, missed that. Seven? I would suspect it was filled with asbestos and concrete dust, had the windows blown in, the air conditions smashed, and was generally battered around enough that it would be cheaper to replace than refurbish. Most of the buildings in the immediate vicinity suffered considerable damage. And it was the Port Authority's building. Maybe they wanted all new, who knows? Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Steve MacSween wrote: on 6/29/08 23:13, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The combustion of 40,000 gallons of aviation fuel, along with the design of the building and the impact damage did them in. I said WTC SEVEN. It was not hit by ANYTHING. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 9/11 inside job? [was: GWB]
Which explains why it collapsed on September 11? Mac on 6/29/08 23:25, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, missed that. Seven? I would suspect it was filled with asbestos and concrete dust, had the windows blown in, the air conditions smashed, and was generally battered around enough that it would be cheaper to replace than refurbish. Most of the buildings in the immediate vicinity suffered considerable damage. And it was the Port Authority's building. Maybe they wanted all new, who knows? Peter On Jun 29, 2008, at 10:17 PM, Steve MacSween wrote: on 6/29/08 23:13, Peter Frederick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The combustion of 40,000 gallons of aviation fuel, along with the design of the building and the impact damage did them in. I said WTC SEVEN. It was not hit by ANYTHING. Mac ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
