Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Hi Vince, Well put. I know TV and real life have little in common but on shows like Law Order when a suspectis being questions they often ask, Do I need a lawyer? and the police usually reply with a Why do you need a lawyer of you did't do anything? because they know a lawyer will advise them to stay quiet. It appears often the police have little to go on until the suspect starts talking! The ability to not be forced to admit guilt is a long standing right - which is based on the English legal system as are many of our laws. Well, I hoped this thread would generate some conversation!! It certainly did *that*!! Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: V Layton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS W140 Vs W126 From: Jeff Zedic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmmm, I still don't understand the 5th..why would an innocent person use it? So basically, using the 5th is a tacit admission of guilt, no? If I caused serious accident, I'd admit faultwhere's the problem? Jeff Zedic Toronto It's protection from zealous prosecutors with conviction quotas (self-imposed included) who know the letter of the law and can use it against a citizen's ignorant non-intent to break them. The less you say, the less ammo they can drum up against you to win in court. The other edge is it certainly CAN be considered by a jury or judge as an admission of guilt to not say anything. I'd think if you were honest and good intentioned without reasonable or predictaible negligence it would be the best thing for your case. But, it seems sadly today conventional wisdom from the best defense lawyers and proven results for the innocent and the guilty is to keep your mouth shut at all costs. Thus, everyone should get the option. Defending youself in court is considered stupid too. Getting a lawyer admits guilt, or at least rightfully founded fear of your true actions and the evidence they may bear OR innocence in the face of potential conviction. If the prosecuter knows all the laws and you come in with a speech, the ruling will simply go to the better presented legal case, and you'd likely lose. PS- If everyone admited fault, the term hit and run would not exist! Vince _ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.3/562 - Release Date: 12/1/2006
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Lee, I was still a bit suspicious until the last paragraph. Now I see the wisdom of the 5th! Jeff Zedic Enlightened in Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Oh no! Next thing he will be moving down here to visit his friend's wife! --R Jeff Zedic wrote: Lee, I was still a bit suspicious until the last paragraph. Now I see the wisdom of the 5th! Jeff Zedic Enlightened in Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Hahaha, Rich..believe me...the LAST place I'd go is the USA! They got guns down thereand no health careI'm going to the UK where the wost that'll happen is that I'll hear an, Excuse me, when you're done, could you please lock the door on your way out? There's a good chap Jeff Zedic Toronto (knows his limits.except with his Aussie girlfriend)
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Actually, we have lots of health care down here-- just ask the multitude of Canadians from Saskatchewan who go to Minot, North Dakota(of all the unlikely places) to get MRIs, CAT scans, etc when the ques at home are too long. And my gun-toting in-laws(outlaws?) from the Prarie Province are pretty darned good shots. Peter Ferguson 1983 300TD - Original Message - From: Jeff Zedic [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS W140 Vs W126 Hahaha, Rich..believe me...the LAST place I'd go is the USA! They got guns down thereand no health careI'm going to the UK where the wost that'll happen is that I'll hear an, Excuse me, when you're done, could you please lock the door on your way out? There's a good chap Jeff Zedic Toronto (knows his limits.except with his Aussie girlfriend) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - Release Date: 11/30/2006
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
If you come here illegally you get free health care, as much as you can use, any ER has it. Nosebleed, belly ache, machete in your neck, whatever. And you can get a gun too, just about anywhere except in the bluer states where you have to get them on street corners in unsavory parts of town. In the UK I hear that if you wait 18 weeks you can get some health care (it helps keep the claims down from the old and sick, those budgets you know) but you can't use any force against the criminal who has a gun, just isn't becoming you know. Have fun! Let us know when you are getting married and we'll have a wedding celebration and shoot off our AK47s! You can bring the Labatt 50. --R (A proud minority citizen of the great Republic of Texas [aka El Norte Mexico]!) Jeff Zedic wrote: Hahaha, Rich..believe me...the LAST place I'd go is the USA! They got guns down thereand no health careI'm going to the UK where the wost that'll happen is that I'll hear an, Excuse me, when you're done, could you please lock the door on your way out? There's a good chap Jeff Zedic Toronto (knows his limits.except with his Aussie girlfriend)
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Rich Thomas wrote: If you come here illegally you get free health care, as much as you can use, any ER has it. Well, sort of. They'll give you emergency care. They won't give you anything else. If you have a chronic disease, like diabetes, you're pretty much out of luck...except that they'll amputate your foot after your circulation quits and it turns gangrenous. Even if you're lucky enough to have health insurance from an HMO, you'll probably have to convince some insurance company bureaucrat that you really need that specialist you've been referred to. And remember, he's being paid a lot of money to find a reason to deny your claim.
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Actually, we have lots of health care down here-- just ask the multitude of Canadians from Saskatchewan who go to Minot, North I think you misunderstood. He was talking about avoiding coming down here for 'visitation' of tnw. And yes, that can be a mite unhealthy depending on a whole lotta things. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
On 30-Nov-06, at 5:22 PM, David Brodbeck wrote: Rich Thomas wrote: If you come here illegally you get free health care, as much as you can use, any ER has it. Well, sort of. They'll give you emergency care. They won't give you anything else. If you have a chronic disease, like diabetes, you're pretty much out of luck...except that they'll amputate your foot after your circulation quits and it turns gangrenous. Well that's not quite true anymore in some places down there, I heard a report on the radio that hospitals in Dallas (I think) wised up and discovered that their repeat emergency offenders without health care usually had diabetes. Therefore they realized it was fair cheaper to given them drop in center support for injections to avoid next weeks ER visit, saved *lot* of money and freed up space for *paying* customers...
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
John M McIntosh wrote: Well that's not quite true anymore in some places down there, I heard a report on the radio that hospitals in Dallas (I think) wised up and discovered that their repeat emergency offenders without health care usually had diabetes. Therefore they realized it was fair cheaper to given them drop in center support for injections to avoid next weeks ER visit, saved *lot* of money and freed up space for *paying* customers... Makes sense. I've suggested before that since emergency rooms are the most expensive way to deliver care, and since we end up paying for it anyway one way or another, it might actually be cheaper to guarantee everyone a minimal level of preventative care than to keep up the current arrangement.
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126, and now health care costs ....
I am not up on current figures, but back when I was [10 - 12 years ago] the US cost of determining who would pay [or not] for medical care, and processing those payments and arguing about it, was about the same as would have been the cost for providing health insurance / care for every uninsured person in the US with a single payer system. Not that it doesn't keep me in a reasonable standard of living, but it keeps a lot of people in misery. BillR Jacksonville 1981 300SD 282k miles, and rather suddenly developing blue smoke on morning start ups. Probably valve seals, but why the sudden onset, and any suggestions on what to do about it? Replace seals the only answer? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Brodbeck Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:22 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS W140 Vs W126 Rich Thomas wrote: If you come here illegally you get free health care, as much as you can use, any ER has it. Well, sort of. They'll give you emergency care. They won't give you anything else. If you have a chronic disease, like diabetes, you're pretty much out of luck...except that they'll amputate your foot after your circulation quits and it turns gangrenous. Even if you're lucky enough to have health insurance from an HMO, you'll probably have to convince some insurance company bureaucrat that you really need that specialist you've been referred to. And remember, he's being paid a lot of money to find a reason to deny your claim. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126, and now health care costs ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Have you noticed a significant change in your oil consumption? On Dec 1, 2006, at 7:09 AM, BillR wrote: 1981 300SD 282k miles, and rather suddenly developing blue smoke on morning start ups. Probably valve seals, but why the sudden onset, and any suggestions on what to do about it? Replace seals the only answer? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFcEq1t178NxI/higRAmasAJ91osCf8xilelGtvHG9wmHZehZQ1wCglke0 cYZM62wyBa3xafsf3q3LAUs= =w3IU -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126, and now health care costs ....
BillR wrote: I am not up on current figures, but back when I was [10 - 12 years ago] the US cost of determining who would pay [or not] for medical care, and processing those payments and arguing about it, was about the same as would have been the cost for providing health insurance / care for every uninsured person in the US with a single payer system. Not that it doesn't keep me in a reasonable standard of living, but it keeps a lot of people in misery. That sounds about right. I worked in the area of healthcare finance for nearly 20 years. A health care provider of moderate size in the USA has to - -Identify the appropriate primary payor out of several which may be involved. Not as easy as it sounds, and there are frequent disputes in which although the patient may be covered by several insurers, all insist that the other one pays first before they will consider the claim. -Identify whether or not they are contracted with those payors, or with any of a veritable spiderweb of PPOs, IPAs etc which both they and the payors may participate with, in order to identify what discount is to be applied and how much of the billed charge must be written off. -Identify and comply with the pre-authorization or precertification requirements of the payors. -Identify the idiosyncratic billing requirements of the particular payors. This all should be done before the claim is mailed. Pre-authorization and precertification must be done, except in emergency situations, before the service is rendered. Then comes the mailing or electronic transmission of the claim, the numerous calls to the insurance company to politely inquire as to whereinthehell the check might be, the endless time on hold. The disputed claims. The appeals, the claims resubmissions, the adjusted payments, etc. You can case your money with an insurance company literally for years in some cases. I have. One of my uglier cases involved roughly $800,000 in billed charges and dragged on for about four years before the insurer finally gave up and cut the check. I would guess that any moderate to large size healthcare provider could cut their billing and collections staff by 80% if the status quo were replaced with a well-run single-payor system. Likewise, looking at the monstrous clusterfuck which is the US healthcare payment system as a whole, probably 95% of the administrative overhead could be eliminated by conversion to a single payor system. I figure I really spent close to 20 years being paid to do what in a sane world would be unnecessary. Lee
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
From: Jeff Zedic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmmm, I still don't understand the 5th..why would an innocent person use it? So basically, using the 5th is a tacit admission of guilt, no? If I caused serious accident, I'd admit faultwhere's the problem? Jeff Zedic Toronto It's protection from zealous prosecutors with conviction quotas (self-imposed included) who know the letter of the law and can use it against a citizen's ignorant non-intent to break them. The less you say, the less ammo they can drum up against you to win in court. The other edge is it certainly CAN be considered by a jury or judge as an admission of guilt to not say anything. I'd think if you were honest and good intentioned without reasonable or predictaible negligence it would be the best thing for your case. But, it seems sadly today conventional wisdom from the best defense lawyers and proven results for the innocent and the guilty is to keep your mouth shut at all costs. Thus, everyone should get the option. Defending youself in court is considered stupid too. Getting a lawyer admits guilt, or at least rightfully founded fear of your true actions and the evidence they may bear OR innocence in the face of potential conviction. If the prosecuter knows all the laws and you come in with a speech, the ruling will simply go to the better presented legal case, and you'd likely lose. PS- If everyone admited fault, the term hit and run would not exist! Vince _ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
When I mentioned I was curious about the advantages of the W140 W126 I hadn't seen the below yet. Makes me thankful I have the Low-Tech 91 300D and 78 240D! I have since found out the below isn't necessarily news to everyone --- I find all this kinda scarey. The NHTSA ruled on 8/21 that carmakers must inform customers when their cars are equipped with black boxes. About 2/3rds of current year models have them which record data such as throttle position, speed, steering wheel angle, brake usage, seatbelt use, air bag deployment and other info for law enforcement to learn about accidents and car makers to learn about safety feature effectiveness. Insurance companies will also have access to the data. The car went out of control won't work anymore... The above appeared in PCA, Panorama of Nov 06 issue. Sounds like a extreme invasion of privacy - as usual in the name of safety. At least they didn't say it's for the children. It's a guarantee this info will end up in court someday. IMHO. Makes me glad my newest car is 15 years old. ;-) Whether I do something wrong or not I don't want my every action recorded and analyzed. Of course, what *I* want doesn't matter. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Trampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] W140 Vs W126 I have to say the W126 in my opinion is the best Mercedes sedan ever! If it is a W126 with crate 3.5L engine and you don't want it, let us know. Trampas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:05 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] W140 Vs W126 If a W140 Diesel (with factory reblt engine) and a very nice late W126 Diesel with exc engine and all other things being in comparable condition, which car is preferable? For ease and economy of long-term maintenance? The W126 hands-down. The W140's are supposed to be a pretty nice ride. The SDL will have a bigger back seat area. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Larry, Please explain to me how a driver's incompetence causing an accident involving personal injury, and a vehicle's ability to provide the telemetry to PROVE that incompetence is a invasion of privacy? Is there no such thing as personal responsibility anymore? Does nobody ever plead guilty and admit fault? If this can make people see their faults and improve their driving why not? The US REALLY needs to rein in ts litigousness and get back to reality. I'm writing this because I'd like to hear opinions on this. It is such an incredibly foreign concept for me. Jeff Zedic Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Well, if we're gonna speed and do crazy stuff, I guess we'll be in the W126 300SD rather than the 06 Dodge pickup with the electronically controlled Cummins Turbo diesel. Speaking of the above mentioned 300SD, the seat will be going in soon now that I think I've got the connector wired up the proper way. . Dad was going to cut the wires and splice the already wired connector in rather than installing the existing wiring and pins into another good connector shell. Hopefully, the wires aren't crossed up too badly, and Jim C's draping wires theory will work. IF the wires have been tampered with and are not draping the right way, I'm close enough where I can figure it out by switching a few of the wires around. Kevin in Hillsboro Oregon 1983 300SD 284K miles, Ursula, waiting for her passenger's seat
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
It is the same as the idea behind the 5th amendment of the US constitution. People have the right to admit guilt, but they should not be forced or required to incriminate themselves if they choose not to. Using data logged by the owners car to incriminate them against their wishes violates what many people feel should be a fundamental human right to choose not to bear witness against yourself. I suppose the actual act of logging the data is not a problem, as long as it can not be disclosed to any 3rd party without the car owners permission, even if by court order. I actually think that the data logging could help prevent police from wrongly accusing drivers of traffic violations, as the exact speed, time, and location of the vehicle would be logged. http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/ constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentv Tyler Backman On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Jeff Zedic wrote: Larry, Please explain to me how a driver's incompetence causing an accident involving personal injury, and a vehicle's ability to provide the telemetry to PROVE that incompetence is a invasion of privacy? Is there no such thing as personal responsibility anymore? Does nobody ever plead guilty and admit fault? If this can make people see their faults and improve their driving why not? The US REALLY needs to rein in ts litigousness and get back to reality. I'm writing this because I'd like to hear opinions on this. It is such an incredibly foreign concept for me. Jeff Zedic Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
While I would agree with you that it is an invasion of privacy and should not be used without your permission - sort of like having the right to remain silent -I would also say that you might one day use the information to defend against allegations that you did wrong - an eyewitness so to speak. Randy (yes - I'm a lawyer) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of LarryT Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:30 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS W140 Vs W126 When I mentioned I was curious about the advantages of the W140 W126 I hadn't seen the below yet. Makes me thankful I have the Low-Tech 91 300D and 78 240D! I have since found out the below isn't necessarily news to everyone --- I find all this kinda scarey. The NHTSA ruled on 8/21 that carmakers must inform customers when their cars are equipped with black boxes. About 2/3rds of current year models have them which record data such as throttle position, speed, steering wheel angle, brake usage, seatbelt use, air bag deployment and other info for law enforcement to learn about accidents and car makers to learn about safety feature effectiveness. Insurance companies will also have access to the data. The car went out of control won't work anymore... The above appeared in PCA, Panorama of Nov 06 issue. Sounds like a extreme invasion of privacy - as usual in the name of safety. At least they didn't say it's for the children. It's a guarantee this info will end up in court someday. IMHO. Makes me glad my newest car is 15 years old. ;-) Whether I do something wrong or not I don't want my every action recorded and analyzed. Of course, what *I* want doesn't matter. Larry T (67 MGB, 74 911, 78 240D, 91 300D) www.youroil.net for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil PORSCHE POSTERS! youroil.net Weber Carb Info http://members.rennlist.com/webercarbs Porsche Road Test http://members.rennlist.com/roadtest/ . - Original Message - From: Trampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] W140 Vs W126 I have to say the W126 in my opinion is the best Mercedes sedan ever! If it is a W126 with crate 3.5L engine and you don't want it, let us know. Trampas -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Cathey Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:05 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] W140 Vs W126 If a W140 Diesel (with factory reblt engine) and a very nice late W126 Diesel with exc engine and all other things being in comparable condition, which car is preferable? For ease and economy of long-term maintenance? The W126 hands-down. The W140's are supposed to be a pretty nice ride. The SDL will have a bigger back seat area. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date: 11/27/2006 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Randy, Legally, would data logged by an onboard computer in a car be considered from a 3rd party witness, or from the defendant? Tyler On Nov 30, 2006, at 2:22 PM, R A Bennell wrote: While I would agree with you that it is an invasion of privacy and should not be used without your permission - sort of like having the right to remain silent -I would also say that you might one day use the information to defend against allegations that you did wrong - an eyewitness so to speak. Randy (yes - I'm a lawyer)
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Hmmm, I still don't understand the 5th..why would an innocent person use it? So basically, using the 5th is a tacit admission of guilt, no? If I caused serious accident, I'd admit faultwhere's the problem? Jeff Zedic Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
You have a right to not incriminate yourself precisely because if you had no such right you would be compelled to incriminate yourself. Go here- http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/coerced_confessions/5.html to see what form that may take in practice. And no, taking the fifth is not a tacit admission of guilt, it is a declination to answer a question when on trial for a criminal offense. Isn't it quite obvious that one may choose not to answer a question without being guilty of the crime of which one is accused? I think many people have a misunderstanding of this aspect of the Fifth Amendment fostered by a popular misquote- On the telly, you always here the (guilty) guy say on the stand I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may incriminate me. Although IANAL, I believe that language is unnecessary and prejudicial. The Fifth amendment states in pertinent part that no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself - that just stays that you cannot be compelled to give testimony when you are the defendant in a criminal trial. Lee Jeff Zedic wrote: Hmmm, I still don't understand the 5th..why would an innocent person use it? So basically, using the 5th is a tacit admission of guilt, no? If I caused serious accident, I'd admit faultwhere's the problem? Jeff Zedic Toronto ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Lee, You seem to miss my point. I'm saying, ifyou did it, own up to it. I'm not into all this legal hocus pocus(see O.J.) It's a question of personal responsibilty. Jeff Zedic (I almost always fess up) p.s. (I'm lying about that)
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Jeff Zedic wrote: Lee, You seem to miss my point. I'm saying, ifyou did it, own up to it. I'm not into all this legal hocus pocus(see O.J.) Sorry, I missed that. Sounded to me like you misunderstood the Fifth Amendment and why it was written. Lee
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
I uderstand the fifth but still don't see why you have it, that's true. Seems like an easy out to delay the inevitable to me. My original question concerned how this telemetry is an invasion of privacy. Jeff Zedic Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
What would bethe purpose of an innocent person using the 5th? If they perhaps, by giving information, incrimiate themsleves in a different unknown crime? Jeff Zedic Toronto
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Jeff Zedic wrote: I uderstand the fifth but still don't see why you have it, that's true. Seems like an easy out to delay the inevitable to me. My original question concerned how this telemetry is an invasion of privacy. The original post spoke of how the data on the box would be available not only in a legal proceeding but also routinely to auto manufacturers and auto insurance companies. That, particularly if it is accompanied by any identifying data as to the driver, is intrusive. How and where I drive, so long as I obey traffic laws, is nobody's business but my own. Ironic also that this will be benefiting auto manufacturers and insurance companies, but they are not footing the bill for this black box- the individual buying the car is paying for it, whether he/she wants it or not. Shouldn't the auto companies and insurers be the ones paying for the *(^#%$ thing if they are the ones realizing the benefit? The only way that this would not be an invasion of privacy is if the data is surrendered with the consent of the owner, or if the box is obtained through legitimate legal means such as a search warrant. Lee
Re: [MBZ] Big Brother is Nearby --- WAS---- W140 Vs W126
Jeff Zedic wrote: What would bethe purpose of an innocent person using the 5th? If they perhaps, by giving information, incrimiate themsleves in a different unknown crime? Again, time for history, recent and not so recent. The fifth amendment protects you, at least in theory, from your confession being admissible if the police obtain it by beating the living shit out of you until you sign. This protection is not a wacky US invention, it is also found in British common law. It is a protection every bit as vital to a free society as habeus corpus. You are surely more civilized in Canada, but in the US we have a long and rich history of police-coerced confessions using beatings, rubber hoses, sleep deprivation, even electric shock. This is what compelling you to be a witness against yourself can look like in practice. It doesn't just pertain to the witness stand. As to the purpose of an innocent person using the fifth while on the stand? There are a variety of reasons why. in the McCarthy hearings of the 1950s, people were questioned about their political beliefs, which were not a crime and were nobody's business but their own. They took the fifth in many cases, and rightly so. Besides it being no business of McCarthy and his cronies, the information was used to persecute and harrass. What they were accused of was no crime, but a forthright answer would have been used to destroy their reputations and their livelihoods. And of course, just maybe, while that liquor store was being robbed you were home f**king the daylights out of your best friend's wife. That's not a crime, and is in fact exculpatory, but you would probably want to keep it to yourself. Lee
