[MBZ] Italian tune up with BioD (was: Re: Keep getting gelled)
while i'm also a BioD fan (50K miles on mostly B100 to date on the 300D), i don't think the Italian tuneup works as well with BioD. not sure why you'd be seeing smoke during the 'tuneup' unless it's just the byproduct of the gunk that's being cleaned out of the fuel system being burned, but i especially have to wonder since we never see *any* smoke out of ours under any conditions when running straight BioD.) firstly, the upside; BioD doesn't build up gunk in the cylinders like #2 does. downside; BioD doesn't generate as much heat in the cylinder, therefore isn't as likely to 'burn off' the gunk like you would with #2. (ever noticed how much more difficult it is to get and keep the coolant temp up when running BioD?) cheers! e tyler wrote: Yea, I think you're right. I can't see how it would make any difference at all one way or another. As for carbon, and cleaning out the fuel system- I don't think anything compares to an italian tuneup while running 100% Biodiesel! Biodiesel is a really good solvent for cleaning out the engine, it even cleans out the tank (hence the filter clogging). For me, it put out big clouds of old soot the first few times, and after that the engine idles smoother, accelerates quicker, and has ZERO visible smoke except on full throttle. Tyler Curt Raymond wrote: Carbon buildup means you don't drive enough or you drive too slow... Marshall said a quart once a year as a tonic wouldn't hurt anything and might actually (in conjunction with italian tune up style driving) could help with carbon buildup because it would burn hotter than diesel fuel. He also noted that there might be a loss (which I've detected) in fuel economy while using it. I've noted a small reduction in engine noise while using motor oil (at one point I used maybe 10% motor oil because I found a source for $0.25/qt) but it goes away quickly upon return to straight diesel. I'm talking about as a tonic here. If I were using it as a fuel lubrication enhancer I'd talk about a lot less oil, more like a pint per tank. Probably wouldn't hurt anything, probably wouldn't help anything either... -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090211/3f2d079a/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Italian tune up with BioD
The smoke is just from clearing out the exhaust carbon on an old engine that has been driven slow. Only happens the first time I drive an old diesel vehicle regardless of the fuel... I've never noticed any difference in coolant temps with Biodiesel. My understanding is that biodiesel burns hotter, which is why it's more efficient, but also produces more NoX emissions. Tyler ernest breakfield wrote: while i'm also a BioD fan (50K miles on mostly B100 to date on the 300D), i don't think the Italian tuneup works as well with BioD. not sure why you'd be seeing smoke during the 'tuneup' unless it's just the byproduct of the gunk that's being cleaned out of the fuel system being burned, but i especially have to wonder since we never see *any* smoke out of ours under any conditions when running straight BioD.) firstly, the upside; BioD doesn't build up gunk in the cylinders like #2 does. downside; BioD doesn't generate as much heat in the cylinder, therefore isn't as likely to 'burn off' the gunk like you would with #2. (ever noticed how much more difficult it is to get and keep the coolant temp up when running BioD?) cheers! e ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Italian tune up with BioD
tyler wrote: The smoke is just from clearing out the exhaust carbon on an old engine that has been driven slow. Only happens the first time I drive an old diesel vehicle regardless of the fuel... OK, that i can agree with that; sorry, but that didn't sound like what you were saying in your previous post. I've never noticed any difference in coolant temps with Biodiesel. My understanding is that biodiesel burns hotter, which is why it's more efficient, but also produces more NoX emissions. while it is true that BioD has a higher Flash Point, IIRC, Flash Point doesn't correlate necessarily with burn temp under ignition by compression. perhaps one of the more scientifically qualified list members can enlighten us more on this if we haven't bored everyone else away by now... ;-) it's been our experience (predictable, repeatable, and verifiable) that our 300D will run about the same temp on the highway at speed regardless of fuel used, but always idle down to a lower temp when running BioD around town than when running #2. there are a number of variables that i can't pretend to know all of that can affect this, including burn temps, burn time, and (perhaps?) ignition point in the cycle. i've spoken with several other BioD users in the local fleet (i'm in Berkeley, so not surprisingly there are thousands around here!) and some of them have noticed the same thing. as an aside, some members of the SVO/WVO crowd have even taken to running higher temp T'stats to try to keep the temps up because the effect is even more pronounced when running VO. the final word is still out on NoX emissions; looks like some of the early reports of higher NoX output from BioD were parroted ad nauseum in spite of the fact that the testing was apparently very limited, and subsequent experimentation and testing may be casting some doubt on the validity and/or severity of what we heard in those early reports. experimentation has shown for quite some time already that simply adjusting the injection timing can have an effect on the NoX output when no other variables are changed, but i never hear that addressed when people are screaming about the higher NoX. although it's come more into the spotlight over the last few years, it's clear we're still on the frontier WRT BioD and non-petroleum fuels. thank goodness bicycle technology is more established (in spite of what you hear from the marketing departments that are all trying to sell you their latest 'advancement'); i'd rather ride one of my bikes anyway! ;-) cheers! e Tyler ernest breakfield wrote: while i'm also a BioD fan (50K miles on mostly B100 to date on the 300D), i don't think the Italian tuneup works as well with BioD. not sure why you'd be seeing smoke during the 'tuneup' unless it's just the byproduct of the gunk that's being cleaned out of the fuel system being burned, but i especially have to wonder since we never see *any* smoke out of ours under any conditions when running straight BioD.) firstly, the upside; BioD doesn't build up gunk in the cylinders like #2 does. downside; BioD doesn't generate as much heat in the cylinder, therefore isn't as likely to 'burn off' the gunk like you would with #2. (ever noticed how much more difficult it is to get and keep the coolant temp up when running BioD?) cheers! e ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Italian tune up with BioD
Bio-diesel is methy eslers of fatty acids rather than mostly long chain hydrocarbons with some aromatics. It burns cleaner and ignites more easily that diesel fuel due to the presence of several oxygen atoms in each molecule of biodiesel. Combustion temperature is more affected by boost than by exact fuel, I think -- it's similar energy density and that's all that's going to affect the actual combustion temperature. The fact that it ignites better and burns cleaner, especially at idle, means that it produces less soot and more power per volume injected, and this will indeed lead to running cooler at idle -- my 300D will go cold at idle in the winter if there is a good breeze. Don't confuse combustion temperature with exhaust gas temperature --- you have have very high exhaust gas temp due to late injection with low combustion temps, for instance, due to fuel still being injected late in the expansion cycle and hence still burning when the exhaust valve opens. The main benefit of bio-diesel, aside from reduced carbon footprint, is much less soot. Dramatically less, in fact -- I don't see any smoke at all on the 300D using bio-diesel. This means less fuel wasted and less waste heat for the same power output. I don't think there is enough difference in any of the fuels to affect the formation of nitrogen oxides. These are formed by the combustion heat in the presence of a full charge of air, and unlike gasoline engines where the combustion temperature can easily be reduced by adding exhaust, on a diesel the amount produced varies with load, engine speed, and fuel delivery. Highest at mid-load, lowest at full fuel delivery (combustion temps go down as the ratio of fuel to air goes rich -- that's why they smoke at full load), and moderate at idle. EGR helps, but will not reduce levels to that of gasoline engines, and catalysts are a real problem due to the large amounts of oxygen in the exhaust (they would go white hot and melt under load). Peter On Feb 11, 2009, at 5:51 PM, ernest breakfield wrote: tyler wrote: The smoke is just from clearing out the exhaust carbon on an old engine that has been driven slow. Only happens the first time I drive an old diesel vehicle regardless of the fuel... OK, that i can agree with that; sorry, but that didn't sound like what you were saying in your previous post. I've never noticed any difference in coolant temps with Biodiesel. My understanding is that biodiesel burns hotter, which is why it's more efficient, but also produces more NoX emissions. while it is true that BioD has a higher Flash Point, IIRC, Flash Point doesn't correlate necessarily with burn temp under ignition by compression. perhaps one of the more scientifically qualified list members can enlighten us more on this if we haven't bored everyone else away by now... ;-) it's been our experience (predictable, repeatable, and verifiable) that our 300D will run about the same temp on the highway at speed regardless of fuel used, but always idle down to a lower temp when running BioD around town than when running #2. there are a number of variables that i can't pretend to know all of that can affect this, including burn temps, burn time, and (perhaps?) ignition point in the cycle. i've spoken with several other BioD users in the local fleet (i'm in Berkeley, so not surprisingly there are thousands around here!) and some of them have noticed the same thing. as an aside, some members of the SVO/WVO crowd have even taken to running higher temp T'stats to try to keep the temps up because the effect is even more pronounced when running VO. the final word is still out on NoX emissions; looks like some of the early reports of higher NoX output from BioD were parroted ad nauseum in spite of the fact that the testing was apparently very limited, and subsequent experimentation and testing may be casting some doubt on the validity and/or severity of what we heard in those early reports. experimentation has shown for quite some time already that simply adjusting the injection timing can have an effect on the NoX output when no other variables are changed, but i never hear that addressed when people are screaming about the higher NoX. although it's come more into the spotlight over the last few years, it's clear we're still on the frontier WRT BioD and non- petroleum fuels. thank goodness bicycle technology is more established (in spite of what you hear from the marketing departments that are all trying to sell you their latest 'advancement'); i'd rather ride one of my bikes anyway! ;-) cheers! e Tyler ernest breakfield wrote: while i'm also a BioD fan (50K miles on mostly B100 to date on the 300D), i don't think the Italian tuneup works as well with BioD. not sure why you'd be seeing smoke during the 'tuneup' unless it's just the byproduct of
